48 replies to this topic

[Renster]

This was discovered by accident but doctor prescribed me the painkiller tramadol about a week ago since I was having severe headaches (ironically caused I think by taking st johns wart/5htp supplement for depression). The thing is i took it late night and had the most beautiful sleep, woke up feeling great and had the best day ive had for many years, I felt stable, happy, alert, plenty of energy, enthusiasm, I felt sociable, I couldnt believe it. I then did an internet search on wikipedia and found that it "appears to have actions on the GABAergenic, noradrenergenic and seretonergenic systems"

This is great in a way but really pissing me off in another way because this is a script drug here in Australia and not approved for depression, though I could say that I have fibromyalgia and ibs which I do have symptoms of and that it relieves pain and maybe get more. Anyone else had it totally illeviate their depression and make them feel great?  I remember years ago when i first took cold and flu tablets the pseudophedrine made me feel great too but not as good as this, not a high just a really good, energised happy feeling. It sux really cause the SSRI's do nothign really for my mood and give me the worst side effects, i hate them. Anyone know of any doctors in Australia that would prescribe tramadol for depression?

[resonance]

I don't, but what medications have you tried already for depression?  It may be a lot easier to see if you can find something similar that will get you the same effect, rather than trying to get a script drug that is not prescribed for depression.

[Judy Doom]

How many times has this happened?  Just once or has it continued?  That is an important consideration.  That said I disagree with Resonance on trying other meds.  Whatever works, works and you should figure out a way to stick with it.  Have you discussed this with your pdoc?  Maybe he will not be reluctant to prescribe it when you point out it has these other benefits.

Edited by Judy Doom, 14 July 2007 - 09:44 AM.

[SashaSue]

I read an article by Lauren Slater a few weeks ago in.... hmm.... I don't remember where.... about how she had similarly accidentally discovered that some painkiller or other worked on her depression amazingly well (after years on prozac and maybe other AD's, that had kind of worked, sort of, sometimes) and she found a pdoc who'd been studying it, and who was willing to work with her on it.  I kind of think it may even have been tramadol she ended up taking, though it was something else she started with.  I'll see if I can find a link, or at least where the article was.

[resonance]

It would be bizarre for me to say that people shouldn't use meds that work for them!  I'm saying that it may be easier to find something more traditional that works than something they may not be able to get prescribed - i.e. it is valuable to explore traditional pathways because you can get those, because it can be very hard to get something that is rarely/never prescribed for depression.  For example, stimulants help some people with refractory depression, but they are well down the line.  I'm not talking about what should or shouldn't be, just pointing out that you have to work with what is.  What "works" is what you can get that works.

Edited by resonance, 14 July 2007 - 10:14 AM.

[SunshineOutside]

resonance, on Jul 14 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

It would be bizarre for me to say that people shouldn't use meds that work for them!  I'm saying that it may be easier to find something more traditional that works than something they may not be able to get prescribed - i.e. it is valuable to explore traditional pathways because you can get those, because it can be very hard to get something that is rarely/never prescribed for depression.  For example, stimulants help some people with refractory depression, but they are well down the line.  I'm not talking about what should or shouldn't be, just pointing out that you have to work with what is.  What "works" is what you can get that works.

Resonance makes good since but if it continues to work for you, I would talk to my Pdoc to see if there is a way to obtain this medication at a reasonable cost.  Find out what the risks are.  Yea!
I'm so glad you're feeling better!  Keep us posted.  I'd like to know how it works out for you.

Sincerely,

SunshineOutside

[mel1]

I've been taking Tramadol-50 mg. for a couple of years. It is a mild, non-narcotic painkiller. I think, as far as scheduled drugs, it is less scheduled than klonopin. I, too, had noticed the AD effects it has, but, in my experience, that wears off. Like most painkillers, you build up a tolerance quickly, especially if taken dailly. You didn't say what, if any, meds you are on or have been on, but if this is the only one you've used for depression, I would consult with a person about it. Meaning pdoc/gdoc-doctor of some kind. You don't want to self-medicate for depression. And if a dr. even suspects you are using it for something other than pain, there is a good likelyhood that you can say good-bye to your tramadol.

[Renster]

thanks so much for the replies guys. I have only taken it once but it was such a dramatic effect and total lifting of my mood I know its solely attributable to tramadol, I have 19 tablets left. If i could find something that even had the same effect or worked on the same areas of the brain Id be happy, but all these SSRI drugs don't seem exact science and the times ive had them massive problems with my digestive system, no lift in mood, restless legs = horrible no thanks. I stil have a job and can function but life is just always a struggle and not much meaning, ie long term low to mid level depression. Im also one for trying to do things naturally so im trying now St johns wart and 5 HTP and have ordered on Rhodiola Roscea since ive seen encouraging reports of that, if all else fails im taking another damn tramadol, even if its just a day relief from feeling like this!

[mel1]

If your depression is mild to moderate, maybe (don't kill me) if you don't exercise, it would help tremendously to do so. Also, try massage therapy if you can. It is also really good for headaches.

[SashaSue]

I can't find a link to the Lauren Slater article I mentioned in my earlier post, but here's a link to a study comparing tramadol to AD in rats (it did well for rat depression, for whatever that's worth)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract

Here's a case study of tramadol induced mania, when it was given for pain management to a woman with no prior history of mania, who'd been taking prozac for unipolar depression for years, which also mentions its possible AD propterties/uses:

http://ajp.psychiatr...ull/158/6/964-a

And then a bunch of things I couldn't access that seemed to be about intramuscular injections of tramadol as a superfast acting AD, at least one of which was in some Australian medical journal.  So, it's not like you're the first person ever to have noticed this.  This has been being noticed, and studied even since  around about 2000 or so.  Resonance is probably right though, that you're going to have a hard time convincing most doctors that this is what you need, if you haven't tried much in the way of more conventional AD's first.  From the abstracts I was able to get into just now, the thing people do seem to have figured out about it is that, as you've noticed, it works really fast.  But they don't seem to know much about how long it will keep working, or what if any the long term side effects of continuous daily usage might be.  So my guess is that, unless you've already tried and failed a couple more conventional AD's, a pdoc might be willing to continue you on the tramadol for long enough for something else to kick in, to see how that would work for you, then, depending on how you did with that, consider either augmenting with tramadol, or possibly making it your primary AD.  But they are likely to be cautious, considering that its use as an AD is pretty seriously off label and experimental, just about everywhere, at this point.  If you're right that tramadol works on both serotonin & norepinephrine, then one you might want to try would be Cymbalta, as it too works on both of those neurotransmitters.  And that's interesting, as it's been marketing as relieving both the emotional and physical pain of depression (whatever exactly that means, I'll admit, I've never been entirely clear on that).

ETA: I just noticed your post saying that you're planning to try Rhodiola.  If you should happen to find that helpful, you might want to consider trying Wellbutrin (which, among other things, would have the benefit of allowing you to measure your dosages more exactly), as rhodiola, if I'm remembering correctly, like wellbutrin, acts mainly on dopamine, somehow or other.

Edited by SashaSue, 14 July 2007 - 07:47 PM.

[Velvet Elvis]

Opiates work for most people with depression.  The big problem is habituation and depenency.  

That's supposed to be less of an issue with tramdol but over time it still happens.  I've been looking for stuff on this for another poster here.  The gist of what I'm finding that while It works short term, in the long term you get habituated and tolerent to the antidepressant effects and the primary effect becomes one of central nervous system depressant.  

Townes Van Zandt puts it this way:

Quote

Now Im out of prison
I got me a friend at last
He dont drink or steal or cheat or lie
His names codine
Hes the nicest thing Ive seen
Together were gonna wait around and die
Together were gonna wait around and die

This is funny.   Prescribing an antidepressant and opiate at the same time as a treatment for refractory depression has been patented.  That can't be legal.

http://www.freepaten...0030087896.html

[Judy Doom]

I love Townes Van Zandt.

[SashaSue]

Aha!  Here's a link to the article by Lauren Slater on her use of opiates for treating her own depression that I'd mentioned earlier.  It's both her own experience and a look at general addiction theory, and some of the research that's been done on the use of opiates in treating treatment refactory depression.  

http://www.elle.com/...-the-dolls.html

And if you've never read any of her memoirs, I strongly recomend pretty much any of them.  "Lying," is my personal favorite, with "Welcome to My Country," about her work as a therapist, dealing with her own MI, a close second.

Edited by SashaSue, 16 July 2007 - 06:24 PM.

[JenB]

I found this:

Quote

Venlafaxine and tramadol ... share a number of molecular and pharmacological features that may allow for broader and overlapping indications for both drugs. Certain patients with coexisting depression and pain syndromes could potentially be treated with a single agent.

Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....oSearch=9881825

Tramadol inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine and serotonin, which contribute to it's antidepressant effect.

[N&P]

JenB, on Sep 18 2007, 06:50 AM, said:

I found this:

Quote

Venlafaxine and tramadol ... share a number of molecular and pharmacological features that may allow for broader and overlapping indications for both drugs. Certain patients with coexisting depression and pain syndromes could potentially be treated with a single agent.

Here is the link: [link=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=9881825" target="_blank]http://www.ncbi.nlm....oSearch=9881825[/link]

Tramadol inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine and serotonin, which contribute to it's antidepressant effect.

I was about to just say that, Jen.

Tramadol works on serotonin...that is why some docs are hesitant to prescribe a SSRI and Tramadol together.
My pdoc just had her first case of serotonin syndrome with only PRN Tramadol and Paxil.

I noticed that Tramadol had AD effects as well but it does lessen over time. It can induce mania but it's rather uncommon. It's more likely to worsen an established mania.

And it's not an opiate but your brain does make allowances for it. Abrupt withdrawal is not advised after taking it long term.

Tramadol for headaches? Funny because it most commonly causes headaches.

I have Fibro and Tramadol allows me to function and is actually effective on pain (unlike opiates).

If it's working for you, GREAT!

[scream_phoenix]

i was on a combo of librium and tramadol briefly back in 2005 and 2006.  i used the tramadol sparingly but it did have a lift on my moods, especially if i was in pain to begin with.  for example if i was driving in a neighborhood that normally stressed me out and wound me up, if i was on tramadol i'd feel a lift because i think i was in that situation for the first time without experiencing a lot of pain.  i think our brains release a good amount of feel good chemicals if pain is temporarily blocked.  i think its the combo of the drugs effect, but also the novelty of experiencing stimuli without the requisite pain we are used to feeling that releases a lot of dopamine.  that's my theory anyway.  i asked for it again some time later and my psych said he was no longer allowed to prescribe it.  frickin a

also the pharmacy did tell me that paxil is the one AD that it interacts with - probably metabolized by the same liver enzymes.

[Silver]

Just passing through - I'm traveling.

By and large, with mood effects, I'm leery of anything with an "instant on" effect. "Easy come, easy go" tends to be the rule for drugs used to treat disorders of affect. Instant-on suggests that there's downregulation in the near future, and there isn't any remodeling occurring, just a nice quick lock-on effect. Bzzt. Wrong answer, and often one that leads to dysphoria in the longer run.

Also, my PSA: be aware of the seizure risks of tramadol. I'm aware that there are seizure-prone members here who take it, and more power to them and I'm glad they've avoided that unpleasant side effect. I've seen far too many people take it and seize. I think too many GPs forget this, and I like to keep the seizure risk out in the public awareness.

It's a lovely drug when it works, though, I agree.

I've seen a lot of people come through a Suboxone clinic who were dependent on higher-dose tramadol. It does indeed have abuse and dependence potential, complete with icky withdrawal symptoms. It bloody well is an opioid; it's a mu-opioid agonist, among other things, and it does have some AD potential. It's included in pain management contracts in any savvy physiatrist's office or pain management clinic, and it can certainly be included in a GC/MS toxicology screen by a clever clinician.

Edited by Silver, 26 February 2009 - 12:27 AM.

[december_brigette]

Hi All-

I was going to ask the question - but this thread has been getting a lot of action recently.

anyway - i was rx'd this today because a little person about knocked me out with her head to my nose.

the very little research i did indicated possible anti-depressive effects because of how it works with serotonin. i know im on an extremely high dosage of paxil - so i will watch out.

i'll report my experience. I havent taken it yet because i was waiting to do the research - ive never taken it before.

db

[Ophelia]

december_brigette, on Apr 13 2009, 02:42 AM, said:

Hi All-

I was going to ask the question - but this thread has been getting a lot of action recently.

anyway - i was rx'd this today because a little person about knocked me out with her head to my nose.

the very little research i did indicated possible anti-depressive effects because of how it works with serotonin. i know im on an extremely high dosage of paxil - so i will watch out.

i'll report my experience. I havent taken it yet because i was waiting to do the research - ive never taken it before.

db

I've been on it since October.

I don't know.  Maybe it works a little.  I don't think I would use it as an actual primary antidepressant, though.