64 replies to this topic

[reco50]

Can anybody tell me how much cloneazepam I would have to take to equal a moderate dose of zanax? I feel I need for the fast action of zanax but my doctor would not rx it for me,instead I got cloneazepam at the hospital. So although I know cloneazepam will not hold up to zanax as far as quick effectiveness, how much cloney will simulate zanax? I am prescribed .5mg of cloneazepam when needed, my shrink said I could occasionally take more if I felt the need for it. I've seen those equilivancy charts but still cant figure it out.
Cloneazepam = Zanax ? I have tried adding my gravol(anti-nausient in Canada) as well as benadryl along with a .5mg dose of cloneazepam. I want to replicate the exact feeling I would expeirence from zanax. As a last resort I could try a walk in clinic, tell them anxiety attack and ask for zanax, but somehow I doubt that would work with my current cocktail. Thanks

Edited by reco50, 18 July 2007 - 04:47 AM.

[Penny Century]

klonopin is actually stronger than xanax.

Benzodiazepine Equivalence Charts



----------------------Benzodiazepine Dose----------Comparative Time to peak plasma level------------------------Half Life
Alprazolam----------------.5------------------------------------------------1 - 2-----------------------------------------------9 - 20
Clonazepam--------------.25-----------------------------------------------1 - 4----------------------------------------------19 - 60


This chart (from the above link) looks for the equivalent dose of a given benzo to equal 5 mg of diazepam (valium).

So, you need .5mg of alprazolam (xanax) to equal 5 mg of valium, but you only need .25 mg of clonazepam (klonopin) to equal 5 mg of valium.

The klonopin is, as you said, slower in action. it takes up to 4 hours to reach full effect where the xanax will be in full effect by 2 hours at the latest.

However, klonopin has a much longer half life than xanax, so it will stay in your system longer. The long half life of klonopin is why doctors like it. You are less likely to become addicted to it as you do not need to continually take more klonopin throughout the day to keep anxiety at bay, so you don't get into the habit of "popping pills" and you don't experience break-through anxiety.

As for getting the same feel from klonopin as you get from xanax... there is another reason doctors prefer klonopin and that is that xanax has a mild euphoric effect that klonopin and other benzos do not have. That mild euphoria increases the chance that patients will become habituated to and possibly misuse their medication. So, basically, klonopin is actually stronger than xanax in terms of efficacy, but if what you are looking for is that mild euphoria, (which isn't what benzos are for) you can't replicate that.

[Tom]

Wow some good info here PennyC. I had no idea klonopin was stronger. I take 5mg of klono a day, i guess that makes me a junkie?

Tom

[Maceo]

According to this website: http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm , Xanax (alprazolam) 0.5mg=0.5mg Klonopin (clonazapam).

[AirMarshall]

I usually do 4 1mg xanax then chew and disolve 8-10mg of klonapin under my tongue by the time the Xanax starts to wear down the kpin is in effect for like 4-6 hours but I have built up a tolerance this I'd only when things are really bad...I have 1mg or more if needed and 4mg kpin a day prescribed

Yeeikes, easy does it!

The recommended dose of Xanax is a maximum of 4mg/day, with a few anxiety patients may need up to 10mg.

for Klonopin the recommneded dose is 1mg/day, with a maximum of 4mg.

No surprise someone might develop a tolerance. Another danger is suffocation from inadvertant overdose or through drug interaction with drugs such as alcohol, antiepileptic mood stabilizers, cough and cold medicines, pain meds, AD's, etc.

a.m.

[Tom]

I usually do 4 1mg xanax then chew and disolve 8-10mg of klonapin under my tongue by the time the Xanax starts to wear down the kpin is in effect for like 4-6 hours but I have built up a tolerance this I'd only when things are really bad...I have 1mg or more if needed and 4mg kpin a day prescribed

I've taken that much of clonazepam in the past. But it's not recommended to take that much for anxiety. I doubt it has any increased efficacy at such a high dose. I'm allowed 6mg/day but I usually take 4mg. I can survive on 2mg/day if I need to.

You better talk to your doctor. Sounds like you need more than just meds. 10mg is a lot of clonazepam!

-Tom

[chimpmaster]

Hey guys,

youve really got to watch those equivalency charts.

Xanax is DEFINITELY stronger than klonopin. Trust me.

No other benzo substitutes for xanax. Valium is used to help taper off xanax.

My point is if you are used to xanax you will not get a similar effect from another benzo.

[Mayteana]

how many .25 of xanax equel 1 mg of xanax

Step 1: Remove finger from ass
Step 2: Please fix typo. However if that's really supposed to say xanax twice - you have far larger problem then can be fixed by a conversion chart.

Mayteana

[MarkP]

I'd be cautious about using the equivilancy charts, which are designed for *benzo tapering*, to directly compare the 'strength' of single doses of clonazepam versus alprazolam.

Alprazolam has a 10 hour half life. So you pop one Xanax and 10 hours later, its decayed to half a Xanax in strength. If you pop another Xanax at that time, you'll have 1.5 Xanax in your system, which, after 20 hours, will decay to 0.75 Xanax. Pop another one, and after 30 hours, you'll have 0.875 Xanax, and if you take another one and wait another 10 hours, you'll have 0.9375 Xanax in your system, 0.96875, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... 1 Xanax.

In other words, someone who takes a Xanax every 10 hours will have a maximum of roughly 2 Xanax in their system, and a minimum of roughly 1 Xanax in their system.

Now, let's try the same with Clonazepam, half-life = 20 hours.

Pop one Klonopin, and 10 hours later, 0.693 of the Klonopin will remain. Take another Klonopin, and at 20 hours, 1.1732 Klonopin will be in your bloodstream. Pop another Klonopin (for 2.173), and at 30 hours, 1.50606 Klonopin will be in blood. Pop another at 30 hours (2.50606 Klonopin), and at 40 hours 1.7367 Klonopin will be in your blood. At 50 hours, 1.9, at 60 hours, 2.01, at 70 hours, 2.084, etc., etc.

So a Klonopin (or diazepam) user on a B.I.D. (ie: twice-daily) schedule is constantly seeing an increasing amount of clonazepam in their system as its being shovelled into the body faster than the body can eliminate it.

What does this mean?

a) If clonazepam and alprazolam were truly chemically equipotent as benzos (ie: same levels of GABA(A) activity), the Ashton benzo equivilancy charts, which are intended for tapering benzo-dependant patients off of benzos, would show clonazepam as having a lower equivilancy than alprazolam.

b) However, they don't. We can infer that alprazolam therefore, is much more powerful (ie: much higher GABA(A) activity) than clonazepam. However, clonazepam's relative weakness is made up by its long half-life, which causes a chronic, dependant user to experience a similar amount of GABA(A)-ergic activity as someone popping the same amount of the relatively more potent alprazolam.

c) Since the charts given by Ashton are based on steady-state benzo effects (ie: GABAminergic activity) in chronic users, the 'chronic' steady-state plasma concentration for alprazolam will be between 1 and 2 dose units. The 'chronic' plasma concentration for clonazepam will be between 2 and 3 dose units.

Therefore, we can conclude that a single dose of alprazolam will be between 1.5 and 2 times stronger than the same dose of clonazepam, *if taken only once*.

So if you're at the doctor, looking for a PRN that you'll use a couple times a month (so there's no accumulation) -- I would suggest that 1mg Xanax would be equal to 2mg Klonopin for the purpose. The difference is, the Xanax won't last as long, harsher withdrawal, etc, whereas the Klonopin will be relatively self-tapering.

[MarkP]

The problem with using those so-called 'benzodiazepine equivilancy charts' is that they are written for the purposes of tapering only, and assume chronic use of a given benzodiazepine, in exchange for chronic use of another benzodiazepine.

They are not charts of how much therapeutic effect a single dose will have.

The long-acting benzodiazepines, because a daily dose results in a cumulative effect, will require a lower equipotent dose, all other things considered, than a short-acting benzodiazepine with no cumulative daily effect.

Therefore, the people looking to substitute, say, 1mg of alprazolam as a PRN dose for a panic attack, with, say, 1mg of clonazepam PRN, are apt to be very dissappointed. The alprazolam, once you take it, in 6 hours, 50% of it is gone, and 75% is gone after 12 hours. Basically, when you get out of bed in the morning after taken alprazolam the day before, there is *none* left in your system. The clonazepam (diazepam, flurazepam, chlordiazepoxide, etc.), if you take a pill a day, mathematically, will accumulate in the body to a dose level that is far above the daily dose.

Doctors who understand accumulation and exponential decay properly understand this sort of stuff. A family doctor who just looks at an 'equivilancy chart', which is only valid for the tapering of chronic use of the agent, will not.

The equivilancy charts are *not* wrong. But trying to use them to compare long-acting benzos to long-acting benzos in terms of therapeutic potency, is. Even Ashton points out that they are for tapering purposes only.

edit: oh my, did I just type out the same damn reply twice???? Geez, I'm getting bad at this .

Edited by MarkP, 11 December 2009 - 03:29 PM.

[Cetkat]

EXACTLY !! I couldn't agree more.. my friend had me try 10mg valium and said it will fuck me up way more than xanax and in truth i sat there waiting for something to happen and nothing.. nothing fuckes you up more than xanax... xanax is probably the strongest benzo, mix it with ativan and you are in for a crazy trip!

I think that YMMV when it comes to Valium and Xanax. It may be because I have I slight tolerance for my Xanax.. I dunno. But for me, the Valium definitely had more of a punch when I took it once.

[lunaceleste]

klonopin has a longer life in your system so is better for regukar anxiety and it will keep you calm all day and night,xanax is better for panic attacks and you feel results faster but is shorter life in your system,i prefer
klonopin,is cheaper and it last longer,no matter what you do dont drink booze with any of these please,people die like that .
hugs

Luna