[The Emperor]

I've been on 10mg fluoxetine for about two weeks now for my anxiety issues, and then last night I did the smartest thing I could eve do, and I know it's just brilliant, and I went and googled "prozac controversy" because I had heard such a thing existed and I wanted to know what the hell it was.

Yeah, turns out, people on Prozac were killing themselves, each other and all that shit, probably family pets too, I didn't read too many of the horror stories, becuase they were pretty unsettling since I am on this drug.

So yeah, I just would rather live with shitty anxiety that makes me a tweaky, jumpy shut in than go out on a shooting spree (well, it would probably be more like a stabbing spree since I don't have a gun or anything)

I joke, but seriously, this is one of my worst fears, and that scares the shit out of me that people on this drug killed people after initiating treatment with this drug. I REALLY would rather not kill people, and I don't feel like killing people, so I'm probably okay.

But really? Does anyone know anything about this or been on a drug that made them THAT out of sorts? That's scary shit to me, I'm about to bump up my dose to 20mg today and am hoping my friends won't see me on the news later this week.

Why does that shit happen? I've read the little warning about becoming suicidal, so I knew that was a possibility(ESPECIALLY after taking sertraline) but homicidal?

I know, people NOT on Prozac or SSRI's kill people too. There just seemed to be so much fous on Prozac in particular on this topic, is that because it was "the first" SSRI (I put that in quotes because I don't think it's true, but that's what they say) and therefore, the first drug for people to act crazy on or what?

Anyone have any input? I'm a little nervous about it, I'm not going to stop taking it or anything, unless I become homicidal of course, but I suppose there's probably a point of no return there.

Ugh, it's just disturbing to know I guess. Any comments? I'll even take "You're an idiot for asking this" seriously.

[ames_xxx]

hey,

i reckon its just because prozac is one of the best known anti depressants to those who have no connection with MI.

i have been on prozac a number of times.. varying doses up to 40mg i think.. it never did anything for me. i think you know your self if your feeling suicidal or raging at everyone around you!! if you ever felt that that was the case get yourself to the hospital.

hope this helps a little
x

[beetle]

I think it has more to do with the fact that the people were mentally unstable to begin with. There is a theory that there is a period in AD therapy where the depressed patient starts to feel the effects of the AD before the depression starts getting treated... so it's kind of like depression+lots of negative energy...whereas before they just had depression without agitation. That's sort of what I've read about that there's a window in treatment where some people might be more compelled to commit suicide because all of a sudden they have the energy to do it.


I don't think you have to worry about anything. You're mentally stable enough to not go on a killing spree...prozac isn't going to make you do it.

[beetle]

Also just wanted to add that we shouldn't single out poor ol prozac. One of the Colombine kids was on Luvox and that got a shit ton of attention...many speculating that it made him unstable enough to do what he did. The more likely case is that he was just mentally unstable to begin with and the luvox had nothing to do with what he did.

This post has been edited by beetle: 29 October 2009 - 11:54 AM

[celestia]

I'm linking you to one article published by NIH (Nat'l Institute of Health). This was the first article I opened after googling "prozac black box warning."

As The Article indicates, black box warnings are as hard core as they sound and the warning for SSRIs was primarily addressing suicide in children and adolescents who took SSRIs for MDD. Later the targeted group was expanded to include young adults up to the age of 25.

I have never read all the data and I probably never will. From what I understand and have taken from what I have read is that, yes, this is a legitimate concern, and no, it's not something that strikes without notice. I have never read any relationship that is believable to me between this phenomena and homicide. But I'm admittedly not well read on the matter.

[dianthus]

I always wonder if it throws people into a mixed or dysphoric mania which, to me, would explain the increased suicidality and impulsive/irrational behavior. I know that's what Prozac did to me after being on it for less than 24 hours. I went from depressed and fragile to a babbling lunatic who was talking to dead people and couldn't stop moving, pacing, thoughts from racing, etc. It was sheer terror and sheer hell. Words cannot explain the evil of a mixed state except that, for me, it's like a panic attack times 1000.

Here's the thing-- you're not all of a sudden going to be okay on prozac after a few weeks and then go blithering mad. If you start to go up or have emergent symptoms, call your doctor immediately. It's smart to have a safety plan anyway when you're crazy, but especially during med changes.

So yeah, been there done that with Prozac and Paxil and I'm still here and no one is hurt or dead.

[Maddy]

I had a bad bad reaction to Prozac AND Paxil. Guess what though, I'm bipolar I.
I also have had problems with nearly every SSRI pdocs have tried me on.

However, I have a friend that probably wouldn't be here today were it not for the miracle drug Paxil. Prozac was a tic tac to him.
If he doesn't get his Paxil he turns into a depressed, crotchety old man that's no fun to be around. **CRANKY**

These meds are really YMMV. I really doubt that you have anything to worry about.

[celestia]

dianthus, on 29 October 2009 - 12:18 PM, said:

I always wonder if it throws people into a mixed or dysphoric mania which, to me, would explain the increased suicidality and impulsive/irrational behavior. I know that's what Prozac did to me after being on it for less than 24 hours.

Yeah, this is what I think and have read about too. With some people I don't think BP is even dx'ed until they have an SSRI complication. Unfortunately for a relative few it's devastating and too late to do anything about it.

[The Emperor]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input, and I was aware that one of the Columbine kids supposedly was on Luvox, and I was going to mention that, but then re-called an article I read that said a WHOLE LOT of the things that came out about Columbine were untrue, and that was one of them, that he wasn't on an AD at all. Don't have a source though, but I'm fairly sure that ended up being a lie I guess? I don't know, that and quite a few other stories that were heard about around that time.

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I had a pretty awful reaction to Sertraline which involved some serious suicidal thoughts, but I had enough insight, at that time, to at least know a little bit that it was the zoloft and not me, but I went pretty batshit on that and I was only on it for five days, I really thought I should have been hospitalized. They also hadn't given me any benzos at that point to help with the side effects, so I was pretty much fucked. I made it though. No homicidal thoughts, that's my main concern. I've had suicidal thoughts and plans before NOT on drugs, and those don't scare me.

Ever since I was about 13, though, I've had this ridiculous fear that one day I'd be a serial killer or some bullshit like that, so, when I read that people have killed people while on Prozac or whatever fucking drug I'm taking, I get a little panic attack. Seriously, I'd rather commit suicide, so it does scare the shit ou of me.

That being said, I took the 20mg dose today and haven't flown into a murderous rage YET, so I don't know. I panicked a little, but other than that, I'm okay. I was under the understanding that this kind of shit usually takes place upon initiation of treatment and not so far down the road, so if I make it a few weeks without being a headline, I'll be cool.

I suppose I AM fairly mentally stable(depends on what day you ask me, and today's good one) it's just the anxiety, and while I want to treat it so I can live my fucking life, I don't want to have to worry about flipping out and killing people. I know rationally that this likely IS NOT going to happen to me. But ever since the sertraline experience, I've been VERY wary of SSRI's. Paxil I didn't even last three days on because I was starting to feel how I had on Zoloft.

Effexor was hell to get on, but basically it just made me braindead, and it's NOT an SSRI, so, I don't know.

S9- I'm going to go look at that link right now.

[dianthus]

I think a lot of people with disorders on the anxiety spectrum have those worries that they are going to somehow get homicidal and kill someone. For me, those things have always been sort of put into my OCD box when they get to be too intrusive. Fortunately, they seem to get better when my overall mood improves.

[beetle]

Not that it's important, I just used it to illustrate that people suspect SSRIs in all sorts of violent reactions.

But most of the sources I can find on the internet say that he was Rxed Luvox and some sources say that it was found in his system during autopsy. I find nothing to the contrary but guess I could if I looked hard enough. Or maybe some reputable source came out after the fact and denounced the claims but I haven't stumbled across it.

Like I said, not exactly pertinent to your situation. Was just trying to illustrate how these drugs seem to almost be vilified.

[The Emperor]

It was just some article months ago that I came across on my RSS on my homepage. I'm not sure if it was a reputable source about the kid being on Luvox or not, but I just googled it and, like you, found nothing to the contrary. I wasn't lying, I swear I read it once.

But yeah, it's scary sometimes the shit that's possible taking these drugs that alter your brain chemistry, you know? All of us have probably had some sort of unbearable, crazy time on one drug or another, and then there's the people that don't get through those times and go out and shoot people or themselves.

I agree that the people who do these violent things are probably already pretty fucked, which I'm sure I'm not quite THAT fucked as, violence scares the hell out of me and is something I'd never want to exhibit.

I brought up the serial killer fear because I felt it was relevant. It comes and goes and I'm still afraid of sharp objects. Like Di said, sometimes the thoughts for me are really bad and other times, during easier times in my life, they are fine, I can blow them off and not have a three month long panic attack over them. THAT sucked. I guess reading that shit about the people going batshit on SSRI's and hurting other people probably triggered that shit for me once again, but hopefully not for long.

I'm sorry to be a downer and bring all this up as I know this is a pro-med website, and I'm all about meds as well as long as they help, but they do have a fucking scary side too, but, like I said before, anyone who's had a shitty experience on one drug or another knows that.

This post has been edited by THE EMPEROR: 29 October 2009 - 05:10 PM

[Maddy]

TE, I don't think you're a downer. You had concerns, you asked questions and got answers. I can't write for anyone else, but I know I've gotten anxious about things and done the same.

It's different than some Mr. Mackey coming through here and saying that all drugs is bad....mmmmkay? Or some $cientologist jumping and screaming on couches about how the drugs is bad and how vitamins will heal you and by the way you need to get rid of your body thetans.

Xenu is my homeboy.

[SashaSue]

I think in the early days of Prozac, someone taking it committed some kind of murder, and tried to use having been on Prozac at the time as some kind of a defense. There was a predictable media frenzy about Prozac turning people into crazed killers, but there was no actual research behind it, just some anecdotes.


Prozac Defense I, 1991 --Kathy Willets said Prozac caused the nymphomania that made her prostitute herself. Sentence: 400 hours of community service after she pleaded guilty.

Prozac Defense II, 1996 --Edward J. Leary claimed that a cocktail of Prozac and other drugs drove him mad and made him firebomb two subway trains. Verdict: guilty. Sentence: 94 years in prison.

In all, it looks like it was used about 80 times, and was successful once, in CT, in the case of an insurance agent who'd robbed a bank.

This post has been edited by SashaSue: 29 October 2009 - 10:01 PM

[The Emperor]

Maddy, on 29 October 2009 - 05:46 PM, said:

TE, I don't think you're a downer. You had concerns, you asked questions and got answers. I can't write for anyone else, but I know I've gotten anxious about things and done the same.

It's different than some Mr. Mackey coming through here and saying that all drugs is bad....mmmmkay? Or some $cientologist jumping and screaming on couches about how the drugs is bad and how vitamins will heal you and by the way you need to get rid of your body thetans.

Xenu is my homeboy.

Thanks, Maddy. I appreciate it. I'm doing okay, not planing on going on a rampage or anything, my poor body thetans though Holy shit, that stuff cracks me up. Thanks for that.

Sasha- I think you're right about that, though I don't think it's your kind of "reefer madness" extreme reaction to something, you know? Like, this IS possible and HAS happened and it'slikely that prozac was a cause. I'm not sayng it happens all the time or anything, but I don't know if it was overblown or not. I guess I don't remember this controversy, I was probably prtty young or uninterested, so, yeah, I don't know.

[Velvet Elvis]

There's a LOT of biased info on the net about the risks of psychiatric medication. Most of it comes from people like the Scientoligists who have a competing product they'd like to sell. Most sites that base their content on peer reviewed research will declare the drugs safe. Don't be sucked in by the propaganda sites.

[SashaSue]

I seriously do not think it's possible for Prozac to turn people into crazed killers. I think reefer madness happens way more often.

Out of all the people accused of crimes in the 20 or so years since Prozac showed up, 80 of them tried to blame it on the prozac. One of those succeeded in convincing a jury it was to blame. More people probably try to blame their crimes on Cap'n Crunch than on Prozac.

[Stickler]

I did have a lot of repressed rage come out when I started Prozac...but I had a lot of repressed rage to come out (as witness my occasional posts in the PTSD forum, I had some pretty good things to be outraged about).
And I didn't go postal. There was lots of rotten PVC smashed, and some knuckle scars from the brick wall I punched, but no massacres.
I think the inducement of mixed states is likely the cause of the rare flipout. I also think Prozac is prolly one of the top ten prescribed drugs in this country, and if you have a population base that big who are on any given med, you are likely to have those rare adverse reactions turn up.

[The Emperor]

I agree that it would not be the prozac all by itself that would turn someone into a crazed killer, I believe there would probably have to be some kind of outstanding circumstances in order for this happen. I wasn't imagining taking a pill and then thirty minutes later my cat is in the microwave. I've been on SSRI's and one SNRI before, and while one SSRI fucked me up seriously in the first week, I don't think I would have gotten to the point that I'd be harming OTHER people, but I discontinued it without dr's approval because I honestly was starting to seriously consider killing myself, among feeling all other kinds of shitty, no sleep, no food, etc. It was awful, so I DO believe that SSRI's could potentially cause worsening of suicidal thoughts, I had few before taking the Sertraline, and I got to the point, on that pill, that I was really considering it. That scared the hell out of me, didn't call the doctor, just stopped taking it. So I figure I personally have enough insight to know that if a drug is making me feel THAT shitty, that I would just stop taking it, I don't care about any "don't stop this drug without speaking to your doctor," at tha point, I've had enough, fuck calling thedoctor, I'm done.

I totally have enough faith in people to assume that they would blame their random acts of violence on a mind altering drug they are taking, it's a smart thing for the person to use as a cop out, and could be believeable. But, like I said before, I DON'T believe that Prozac or any other AD for that matter, is going to cause sudden, random acts of violence all by itself. The suicide thing I find more believeable maybe because I've experienced the thoughts and shit on my first SSRI, and I understand that a lot of people might not make the connection to the drug and the thoughts and that's how this little black box warning came about. And I don't really hear much abut homicidal shit associated with this, come to think of it.

I should have done a bit more research before jumping to conclusions and posting this. I've read about it before, but I found this site about this book called "Don't listen to Prozac" or some shit and the excerpts were all about "58 year old so and so unexpectedly strangled his wife after taking prozac" and a bunch of other shit like that, so it was alarming, and this, being something that scares the shit out of me, was probably something I was willing to believe immediately just BECAUSE it scares the shit out of me, if that makes any sense.

I've heard of people becoming more aggressive and angry on AD's as well. Remeron made me an irritable bitch, but not a murderous one. I don't know, thanks guys, this was re-assuring, and I should have done all the research myself, but that's a lot of shit to read and it's late at night when I find these things that are going to keep me from sleeping, even though I'll try. Thanks again, sorry if this was ridiculous.

[beetle]

There's also times where families of victims try suing the drug companies, saying that it was the AD that led to the shooting. Like this case:
http://en.wikipedia....ravure_shooting

Uh no, in that case the guy was mentally unstable for a long time to begin with and being on prozac did not make him kill those people. But when you end up with these lawsuits by the families against the drug companies some people automatically start to believe that the drugs must be causing the violence.