Jump to content




Photo
- - - - -

Lecithin (or choline) for bipolar and high Cholesterol ?!?


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Überpolarbear

Überpolarbear

    i second LunaRufina's member title.

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 375 posts

Posted 23 January 2010 - 11:03 AM

I came across Lecithin for a reason i cant remember...
anyways, i found some rather interesting studies listed below.
one says 12 GRAMMS! of soy lecithin a day decreases "bad" cholesterol and does some other good stuff too. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3778675

the other one is a study including a very small number (ok six) of rapid cycling bipolars already on lithium and 4 out of 6 got sort of better on choline which is found in moderate amounts in soy lecithin. the study wont say how much choline tho. manic symptoms were particularly reduced. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8874839

so i thought it might be a good idea to take some soy lecithin as my cholesterol level is quite high and i clearly still get manic. the other reason is it's probably cheaper than baking powder or something ridiculously cheap like that. i got almost half a kilo for 9 euros.
the package of the Lecithin powder itself says take 21 gramms (!!) a day which is probably a printing mistake or something. but because 12gr. is the optimal amount for the cholesterol stuff and the bipolar study failes to say how much i should take, i go for 12 gr.
I mixed 7gr. of the powder with a small amount of youghurt and sugar and ate it just to test it like an hour ago (which has a very strong ass-y taste) and nothing bad happend (vomiting, nausea, etc. which happens when you have soy allergy) and i'm sort of less depressed than before eating the stuff and feel generally better which could rather be placebo or my own mood swings. but maybe not!

YAY!
Polar Bear

"humor is therapy" (Viktor Frankl)
Diagnosis: [/size][/size]bipolar ultradian rapid cycling, schizophrenia NOS, being a pervert. Yes. this is bipolar. fuck the docs who say i'm schizo. ok maybe it's schizo, Clearly Schizoaffective disorder. Spooky shit!
meds: Lithium 675mg, valproic acid (generic depakote) 1200mg, Clozapine 300mg, Trazodone 50mg, Zyprexa 20mg, Carbamazepine 600mg, lamictal 50mg, valproate (generic depakote stuff) 1750mg Seroquel 600mg (soon to be 800 probably). Zyprexa 30mg, Solian (Amisulpride (AAP)) 600 mg, Lyrica 150mg, Topamax 150mg
, lamictal 25mg
 

 



#2 sorrel

sorrel

    Member

  • Inmate Emeritus
  • Pip
  • 965 posts

Posted 23 January 2010 - 12:50 PM

I will try to find out more about those remedies -- but the amounts seem quite high. It sets off alarm bells for me to be instructed to consume 12g or 21g of any supplement, especially if you are basing it on one paper that is from 24 years ago. What else have you tried to lower your cholesterol? Like dietary changes, etc.




#3 Überpolarbear

Überpolarbear

    i second LunaRufina's member title.

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 375 posts

Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:23 PM

I will try to find out more about those remedies -- but the amounts seem quite high. It sets off alarm bells for me to be instructed to consume 12g or 21g of any supplement, especially if you are basing it on one paper that is from 24 years ago. What else have you tried to lower your cholesterol? Like dietary changes, etc.


I tried dietary change and it didn't help at all. and my mother has it too and did a much more radical dietry change (she was vegan for like two years) and her cholesterol shoot up to the sky (became even worse!) the same with my grandma. it seems that our cholesterol levels are not connected to out diet in any particular way.
i'm going to take the 12g. in the worst case something will actually happen and i sue the ass of the company which is selling the supplement and get rich! ;)

"humor is therapy" (Viktor Frankl)
Diagnosis: [/size][/size]bipolar ultradian rapid cycling, schizophrenia NOS, being a pervert. Yes. this is bipolar. fuck the docs who say i'm schizo. ok maybe it's schizo, Clearly Schizoaffective disorder. Spooky shit!
meds: Lithium 675mg, valproic acid (generic depakote) 1200mg, Clozapine 300mg, Trazodone 50mg, Zyprexa 20mg, Carbamazepine 600mg, lamictal 50mg, valproate (generic depakote stuff) 1750mg Seroquel 600mg (soon to be 800 probably). Zyprexa 30mg, Solian (Amisulpride (AAP)) 600 mg, Lyrica 150mg, Topamax 150mg
, lamictal 25mg
 

 


#4 sorrel

sorrel

    Member

  • Inmate Emeritus
  • Pip
  • 965 posts

Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:31 PM

Have you tried niacin, a pretty well-established supplement for reducing cholesterol?




#5 Überpolarbear

Überpolarbear

    i second LunaRufina's member title.

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 375 posts

Posted 23 January 2010 - 02:45 PM

Have you tried niacin, a pretty well-established supplement for reducing cholesterol?

I will have to take doses very much higher than the RDA. and i already get the flush from very low doses. AND

Three other major adverse effects include liver problems, gout, and high blood sugar.

ok i have this from a rather crappy website BUT i already have high liver markers, high uric acid and am prediabitic. so basicly no thanks.

I dont really belive that soy lecithin is dangerous. I assume the company from which i bought the lecithin sells some thousands of the packages in germany every year and most people believe the 21g thing and actually take that much. there should be something in the news or something about people dieing or something. i really cant find anything about any single person ever having a lecithin overdose. i think the lecithin doesnt have that much "oomph" compared to other eupplements so you have to take huge doses. it's basicly soy-fat.

Edited by Überpolarbear, 23 January 2010 - 03:02 PM.

"humor is therapy" (Viktor Frankl)
Diagnosis: [/size][/size]bipolar ultradian rapid cycling, schizophrenia NOS, being a pervert. Yes. this is bipolar. fuck the docs who say i'm schizo. ok maybe it's schizo, Clearly Schizoaffective disorder. Spooky shit!
meds: Lithium 675mg, valproic acid (generic depakote) 1200mg, Clozapine 300mg, Trazodone 50mg, Zyprexa 20mg, Carbamazepine 600mg, lamictal 50mg, valproate (generic depakote stuff) 1750mg Seroquel 600mg (soon to be 800 probably). Zyprexa 30mg, Solian (Amisulpride (AAP)) 600 mg, Lyrica 150mg, Topamax 150mg
, lamictal 25mg
 

 


#6 null0trooper

null0trooper

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 3928 posts

Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:32 AM

I will try to find out more about those remedies -- but the amounts seem quite high. It sets off alarm bells for me to be instructed to consume 12g or 21g of any supplement, especially if you are basing it on one paper that is from 24 years ago. What else have you tried to lower your cholesterol? Like dietary changes, etc.


Phospholipids make up about 10% of the wet weight of an egg yolk, so 12g is the rough equivalent of 4 egg yolks.

If the lecithin content does reduce the availability of cholesterol in eggs, you could cut the supplement use in half (and save money) by eating 2 eggs a day (That should be enough for a decent-sized morning omelet.) I suggest that because the other nutrients in an egg aren't trivial.

Proof once again that we are the only adventurers for whom the letters "AD&D" stand for "Attention Deficit Disorder" - Roy Greenhilt, Order of the Stick

Rule your own nation at Cyber Nations, A nation simulation game! Yes, I do waste spend a lot of time on it, especially the Viridian Entente's alliance boards.


#7 AnneMarie

AnneMarie

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 4644 posts

Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:39 AM

What's your doctor say?

Bipolar I and ADD


#8 notfred

notfred

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 2426 posts

Posted 25 January 2010 - 01:33 AM

I would go with well established ways of lowering cholesterol and controlling mania. One paper in not enough to change a treatment plan. It is not like we have a shortage of treatments for cholesterol and mania.

#9 Velvet Elvis

Velvet Elvis

    The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering.

  • Admin
  • 12800 posts

Posted 25 January 2010 - 03:02 AM

When I was stocking the supplements section of the crazystore I made sure to find at least one fairly sound article supporting the mental health value of everything in there. I don't remember what I found for lecithin, but it's in there so it must have been something.

http://astore.amazon...tail/B00068U45W

De-gnosis: ADD, recurrent depression (or maybe bpII in the guise of such), Asperger's, OCD, social anxiety
Today's Pill Menu: Dexedrine, Wellbutrin (Budeprion), Strattera, Celexa, Risperdal, and clonazepam

Like other moderators and staff of crazyboards.org, I am not a health care professional. You have no way of knowing that I am not talking out my ass. Please do your own homework before making any health related decisions.

Buy me Stuff: Amazon Wishlist


#10 sorrel

sorrel

    Member

  • Inmate Emeritus
  • Pip
  • 965 posts

Posted 25 January 2010 - 07:28 AM

Yeah, null0, after posting that I realized that the amounts in food wouldn't be so far off.




#11 SashaSue

SashaSue

    Vulpes Bipolaris

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 4565 posts

Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:09 PM

I did some quick looking, and didn't really find anything about lecithin as a treatment for bipolar other than the 1982 studied already mentioned. It probably won't make things any worse, but I wouldn't expect miracles.

As far as cholesterol goes, I think garlic has actually been studied more than lecithin seems to have been, but I could be wrong about that.
Dx: Bipolar I, ADHD<br />
Rx: Seroquel, 800mg, Lamictal, 150mg, Effexor, 325mg, Wellbutrin, 450, Dexedrine ER, 60mg

#12 Überpolarbear

Überpolarbear

    i second LunaRufina's member title.

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 375 posts

Posted 26 January 2010 - 12:37 PM

What's your doctor say?


my doc is against any sort of supplementation except for fish oil. i'm not even bothering telling him about this. i know his reaction already so there is no point in doing that.

btw; today i'm so lethargic that i'm even too lazy to use google but i'm quite sure i read papers other than the one i posted on lowering cholesterol and triglycerides in rats or hamsters or some other beasts beeing fed 100gr of lecithin or something.

hehe there is soy lecithin in Nutella ™ too.

Edited by Überpolarbear, 26 January 2010 - 12:45 PM.

"humor is therapy" (Viktor Frankl)
Diagnosis: [/size][/size]bipolar ultradian rapid cycling, schizophrenia NOS, being a pervert. Yes. this is bipolar. fuck the docs who say i'm schizo. ok maybe it's schizo, Clearly Schizoaffective disorder. Spooky shit!
meds: Lithium 675mg, valproic acid (generic depakote) 1200mg, Clozapine 300mg, Trazodone 50mg, Zyprexa 20mg, Carbamazepine 600mg, lamictal 50mg, valproate (generic depakote stuff) 1750mg Seroquel 600mg (soon to be 800 probably). Zyprexa 30mg, Solian (Amisulpride (AAP)) 600 mg, Lyrica 150mg, Topamax 150mg
, lamictal 25mg
 

 


#13 Velvet Elvis

Velvet Elvis

    The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering.

  • Admin
  • 12800 posts

Posted 26 January 2010 - 01:30 PM

I'm strongly in favor of medicinal Nutella.

De-gnosis: ADD, recurrent depression (or maybe bpII in the guise of such), Asperger's, OCD, social anxiety
Today's Pill Menu: Dexedrine, Wellbutrin (Budeprion), Strattera, Celexa, Risperdal, and clonazepam

Like other moderators and staff of crazyboards.org, I am not a health care professional. You have no way of knowing that I am not talking out my ass. Please do your own homework before making any health related decisions.

Buy me Stuff: Amazon Wishlist


#14 null0trooper

null0trooper

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 3928 posts

Posted 26 January 2010 - 11:05 PM

When I was stocking the supplements section of the crazystore I made sure to find at least one fairly sound article supporting the mental health value of everything in there. I don't remember what I found for lecithin, but it's in there so it must have been something.


It may have been researched more in the past as a nootropic.

Proof once again that we are the only adventurers for whom the letters "AD&D" stand for "Attention Deficit Disorder" - Roy Greenhilt, Order of the Stick

Rule your own nation at Cyber Nations, A nation simulation game! Yes, I do waste spend a lot of time on it, especially the Viridian Entente's alliance boards.


#15 OscillateWildly

OscillateWildly

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 714 posts

Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:27 PM


I will try to find out more about those remedies -- but the amounts seem quite high. It sets off alarm bells for me to be instructed to consume 12g or 21g of any supplement, especially if you are basing it on one paper that is from 24 years ago. What else have you tried to lower your cholesterol? Like dietary changes, etc.


I tried dietary change and it didn't help at all. and my mother has it too and did a much more radical dietry change (she was vegan for like two years) and her cholesterol shoot up to the sky (became even worse!) the same with my grandma. it seems that our cholesterol levels are not connected to out diet in any particular way.
i'm going to take the 12g. in the worst case something will actually happen and i sue the ass of the company which is selling the supplement and get rich! ;)


Some people may see a paradoxical increase in cholesterol when they attempt to eat a "heart healthy diet". This is likely if the underlying problem is insulin resistance, as eating a "heart healthy diet" which is low in fat and high in grains is going to exacerbate the problem with insulin, thus the cholesterol problem.
A typical cholesterol profile of an insulin resistant, hyperinsulinemic person is going to be a low HDL and a high triglyceride. If these parameters were worsening, your grandmother would be better advised to avoid as much starch/grains, limit sugar, and to eat more of her calories from fats/proteins like olives, nuts, avocados, eggs (which, contrary to myth, do not worsen cholesterol).

Another reason for your grandmothers high cholesterol may be unrecognized hypothyroid. Hypothyroid is common in older women, and elevated cholesterol is a symptom.

Seeing as your grandmother went vegan, it's probably more likely that an insulin issue was behind the worsening cholesterol (many people who go vegan start eating a lot more starch and sugar).


Choline makes acetylcholine, which slows the brain and regulates nerve conduction. It's been studied, and demonstrated, that a higher choline intake reduces manic symptoms, and augments the effect of lithium.

Another dietary element good for mania (and seizures) is taurine, as taurine is inhibitory and augments gabaergic tone. I've observed I'm often calmer/more balanced when drinking taurine-containing energy drinks. THere have been a few times where I've been a bit hyper, only to settle down a bit after a 2000mg dose of taurine (in SPITE of 180mg of caffeine also present in the drink). ENergy drinks may actually calm me down if I am a bit manicy for this reason (it is not a paradoxical reaction to caffeine, as I have never become "calm" after coffee, and coffee always increases my energy more than what it otherwise would have been). Taurine is actually being studied in a big trial for mania (go to clinicaltrials.gov and search "taurine bipolar mania").


One warning about the choline... it has been known to slow the brain too much and cause depressive symptoms in some. If you're mood disorder is a primarily depressive one, choline might be a bad idea.

Edited by OscillateWildly, 02 February 2010 - 07:29 PM.


#16 OscillateWildly

OscillateWildly

    Member

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 714 posts

Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:31 PM

Oh and regarding the dose... it is only necessary to take such a high amount of lecithin because it only contains a small amount of choline.
Don't use lecithin, use real choline, makes more sense.

An effective dose of pure choline is probably considerably less.

Eggs are a natural source of choline, each egg contains almost 200mg which is about what you would find in a pill from a health food store.





The content of individual posts on this site are the sole work of their authors and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and/or policies of the Administrators, Moderators, or other Members of the Crazyboards community. Health related topics should not be used for the purpose of diagnosis or substituted for medical advice. It is your responsibility to research the accuracy, completeness, and usefulness of all opinions, services, and other information found on the site, and to consult with your professional health care provider as to whether the information can benefit you.