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Schizophrenia, Pyschosis and Recovery (Psychological Approaches)


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#21 Aurochs

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:18 PM

Stacia, I believe you have some links that I shared with you after my posts were removed. If you had any integrity at all, you would share them in this space so that people could investigate for themselves what Open Dialogue Treatment is all about.

And you are perfectly free to post them yourself if you wish. Expecting someone else to do your work for you is not a tactic that encourages debate or discussion, especially when you simultaneously call them weasels. Also, we do not repost private conversations in public.

This was an Epic Fail in open, balanced, fair, respectful or mature dialogue.

Only because you've made it that way by... posting that response.

Edited by Aurochs, 31 March 2011 - 10:21 PM.

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#22 spiritual_emergency

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:18 PM



dianthus, presumption is rampant here. Do you think I, or any other advocate for the mentally ill would ever refer people to a place where this kind of behavior takes place? And when the mods take part in that kind of behavior... that is one of the surest indicators that it's not a healthy environment.

I don't refer others to unhealthy environments.

Good day, dianthus.




#23 Velvet Elvis

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:20 PM


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#24 AnneMarie

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:53 PM

All discussion is now taking place in a number of other places troll hunter. crazyboards.org is not faring well. Those of you who resorted to knee-jerk reactions have not served your community well.

This doesn't make sense. Just to clarify, I don't think you received knee jerk reactions so much as ones of disbelief and calling the kettle black.

Stacia, I believe you have some links that I shared with you after my posts were removed. If you had any integrity at all, you would share them in this space so that people could investigate for themselves what Open Dialogue Treatment is all about.

I believe that you posted them hours ago when the thread that was briefly under review was again made public. And just FYI, I don't publish for mass consumption what is said in private message.

As for the rest of you who jumped into the fray ... you have done nothing to represent your community as the sort of place anyone would refer others in severe crisis states or recovering from same would ever refer them to. No, dianthus..,. don't trot out your "you're hurting people" mantra because I've noticed that when people are dying, your kind are absent from the grieving parties. For some reason you also seem to believe that stripping people of hope will make them feel better. Do you have any idea how many people that kind of attitude has pushed into suicide? Nonetheless, according to your rules, the moderators pride themselves on being assholes. Congratulations. You have earned your title.

You are pushing something that fairs no better than do nothing, yet it comes with a price tag. That is often called snake oil. It takes advantage of people based on their lack of knowledge about what is scientiically shown to have efficacy. Your links were all commercials or self-serving propaganda, not peer reviewed science or medical journals. Of course people have not responded "welcomingly" to you.

Science and objective knowledge do not push people to suicide. Saying so is silly. Pipe dreams and shams take advantage of folks which certainly doesn't leave anyone feeling good.

You are a mean person.

This was an Epic Fail in open, balanced, fair, respectful or mature dialogue.

Yes. You should work on that.

Edited by Stacia, 01 April 2011 - 02:05 AM.

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#25 Guest_Recluse_*

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:06 AM

Apparently the Operating Douchebag doesn't like it when his threads get called like we see them? I absolutely love that this ass-wagon falls back on 'I'll ruin your reputation! I'll never refer anyone here EVER EVER! (Pretending I ever did in the first place.) Oh my god you guys suck so hard! You're so mean! Mean mean mean!'

If anything, the response given is an example of diligent moderators doing their fucking jobs. That is, keeping the crackpots, true trolls, and complete quacks out of the community. You know, those folks who spread disinformation, unproven 'spiritual science', and encourage people to hurt themselves in a myriad of ways, including ceasing their meds in the hope that thinking happy thoughts will fix what's broken...so, you, basically. They are protecting people who want to believe the shit you spew so hard that their critical thinking is temporarily offline, and they don't know any better.

Thank you moderators, for putting some fucking chlorine in the pool.

P.S. FWIW, I'm actually the one that said your bullshit hurts people, because it does. Make sure to take your pseudo-whining, martyrdom bitchfit out on the right person here.

Edited by Recluse, 01 April 2011 - 01:11 AM.


#26 spiritual_emergency

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:40 AM

Apparently the Operating Douchebag doesn't like it when his threads get called like we see them? I absolutely love that this ass-wagon falls back on 'I'll ruin your reputation! I'll never refer anyone here EVER EVER! (Pretending I ever did in the first place.) Oh my god you guys suck so hard! You're so mean! Mean mean mean!'

If anything, the response given is an example of diligent moderators doing their fucking jobs. That is, keeping the crackpots, true trolls, and complete quacks out of the community. You know, those folks who spread disinformation, unproven 'spiritual science', and encourage people to hurt themselves in a myriad of ways, including ceasing their meds in the hope that thinking happy thoughts will fix what's broken...so, you, basically. They are protecting people who want to believe the shit you spew so hard that their critical thinking is temporarily offline, and they don't know any better.

Thank you moderators, for putting some fucking chlorine in the pool.

P.S. FWIW, I'm actually the one that said your bullshit hurts people, because it does. Make sure to take your pseudo-whining, martyrdom bitchfit out on the right person here.



Incredible! Has anyone ever told you before Recluse that you have a gift?! I'm actually somewhat in awe myself at having never realized before now that this is exactly the kind of place I should be referring schizophrenics to. Truly, I'm blown away by your talent for words. I never realized until now that degradation, humiliation... it's the cure! Yes! This is what we need to be doing! We need to be sending a very clear message that schizophrenics are the bottom of the crap pile. Their is no hope for them. They exist only to be shit upon by other people who need to feel powerful. I mean, sure... it's probably going to make them want to press a bullet through their skull but the important thing is... look at how much better you feel!

Your approach is so... dynamic. So... rrrrrrraw and... grrrrr.... and powerful. I want to feel your muskels. Why, its ... it's... almost beyond anything I've ever seen before! Amazing. So amazing, that I invited all of my friends to come take a look at the treatment protocol crazyboards.org has developed for schizophrenics in recovery. Wait until they hear about this in Finland.


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Edited by dianthus, 01 April 2011 - 02:37 AM.



#27 Guest_Recluse_*

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:54 AM

I'm actually somewhat in awe myself at having never realized before now that this is exactly the kind of place I should be referring schizophrenics to. Truly, I'm blown away by your talent for words.

You fail at sarcasm, just like everything else so far.

We need to be sending a very clear message that schizophrenics are the bottom of the crap pile. Their is no hope for them. They exist only to be shit upon by other people who need to feel powerful.

Lemme stop you for a second. I'm not shitting on you because you are schitzophrenic...in fact, my feelings about those so afflicted haven't entered into this thread even once, so you don't get to make assumptions there. What I am shitting on, and I've been quite clear about this, so I fail to see why your understanding is so muddied, is someone who is encouraging an unproven, pseudo-scientific approach to treating schizophrenia, or for that matter any mental illness.

You are basically telling people to abandon proven methods in favor of quackery.
You even admitted that it was perhaps reckless and pushy, yet you still did it.

I shit on that, sir. I shit on fake science.
Therefore, I shit on you. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with it.

So amazing, that I invited all of my friends to come take a look at the treatment protocol crazyboards.org has developed for schizophrenics in recovery.

Do they have better reading comprehension than you do? Your point isn't going to be well made when they realize that this has nothing to do with our 'protocol' for schizophrenia and everything to do with your blatant encouragement against proven treatment in favor of bullshit largely abandoned by the greater scientific community.

Now seriously, it's been made more than clear that you aren't wanted and that your views aren't appreciated or desired, most reasonable people would at this point...you know, fuck off.

#28 Guest_Vapourware_*

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 01:58 AM

Why are you making all these weird accusations about the forum and users? All we ask is scientific, peer-reviewed citations of the treatments that you have espoused, which you have not been able to provide. It's one thing to post alternative treatments, it's another to promote them as some form of cure when they have not proven themselves.

I think it is irresponsible to instill a sense of false hope in people genuinely diagnosed with conditions like schizophrenia, not to mention dangerous. It is hard enough for people with conditions like schizophrenia to be engaged with useful treatment without them falling prey to crackpot theories.

#29 spiritual_emergency

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 02:31 AM

Why are you making all these weird accusations about the forum and users? All we ask is scientific, peer-reviewed citations of the treatments that you have espoused, which you have not been able to provide. It's one thing to post alternative treatments, it's another to promote them as some form of cure when they have not proven themselves.

I think it is irresponsible to instill a sense of false hope in people genuinely diagnosed with conditions like schizophrenia, not to mention dangerous. It is hard enough for people with conditions like schizophrenia to be engaged with useful treatment without them falling prey to crackpot theories.



Instill a false sense of hope...? As opposed to what -- a false sense of despondency? I've heard you all go on about "anti-pyschiatrists" but there is something called an "Anti-Recoverist" and some of you are painted all over with an amber alert.



Most Americans are unaware that the World Health Organization (WHO) has repeatedly found that long-term schizophrenia outcomes are much worse in the USA and other developed countries than in poor ones such as India and Nigeria, where relatively few patients are on anti-psychotic medications. In undeveloped countries, nearly two-thirds of schizophrenia patients are doing fairly well five years after initial diagnosis; about 40% have basically recovered. But in the USA and other developed countries, most patients become chronically ill. The outcome differences are so marked that WHO concluded that living in a developed country is a strong predictor that a patient will never fully recover.

Source: Mad In America



The psychotherapy of schizophrenia is, in my opinion, as much in the mind of the observers as in the mind of the patient. We must change before he can change. He has long been incurable because we have been hopeless.

-- Dr. Karl Meninger




In 1999 Ronald F. Levant told a group of fellow psychologists how recovery from a major disorder such as schizophrenia was not only possible, it was happening regularly. “Recovery from schizophrenia: a colleague snorted, “Have you lost your mind too”?

Source: Why Can't They Recover?




In the early years of the nineteenth century, when psychiatry was just beginning, a furious argument raged between people with very different opinions about the nature and course of mental disorders. On the one hand, psychiatrists like Eugene Bleuler believed that recovery was possible and indeed likely for the vast majority of people suffering from serious mental disorders like schizophrenia (then called dementia praecox).

On the other hand, psychiatrists such as Emil Kraepelin insisted that recovery was impossible and that sufferers would never recover. Indeed he believed that their condition would get worse throughout their lives. Kraepelin won the debate and the idea of permanent illness and disability formed the basis of mental health services for almost two centuries.

Source: Understanding Recovery




Psychiatrist Naren Wig crossed an open sewer, skirted a pond and, in the dusty haze of afternoon, saw something miraculous.

Krishna Devi, a woman he had treated years ago for schizophrenia, sat in a courtyard surrounded by religious pictures, exposed brick walls and drying laundry. Devi had stopped taking medication long ago, but her articulate speech and easy smile were eloquent testimony that she had recovered from the debilitating disease.

Source: Culture & Mind: Psychiatry's Missing Diagnosis




I have entitled this presentation, "Long Term Outcome for Rehabiliated Psychiatric Patients: Reasons for Optimism". The plan this morning is to look at recovery and the evidence for it among people with very serious mental illness. Let us look at some things that we've learned about rehabilitation and also a little bit about resilience. I'm going to present seven of the ten world studies this morning.

Now, when we talk about subjects who are recovered, we're talking about no medications, no symptoms, being able to work, relating to other people well, living in the community, and behaving in a way that you would never know that they had had a serious psychiatric disorder. And if you have heard of that old belief that one third get better, one third get worse, and one third stay the same, we found that it was not true. In the Vermont Longtitudinal Study, we took the bottom third of this population and found that two-thirds of them also turned around...

-- Dr. Courtenay Harding

Source: The Recovery Vision



Dr. Harding’s data are all the more powerful because she was studying the bottom 19% in the functional hierarchy in a large state hospital. Some of the people in her study had regressed to speaking in animal like sounds. Most had been in the institution for 10 or so years, many had been in and out repeatedly. The cohort is the least functional ever studied in world literature on schizophrenia. Nevertheless, of this bottom 19%, 62% to 68% fully recovered or significantly improved.

-- Dr. Edward Knight

Source: Recovery




The first study was done by [Dr.] Manfred Bleuler, whose father Eugene Bleuler renamed dementia praecox and studied schizophrenia. And his son, Manfred took over the hospital at Burgholzi in Zurich, Switzerland and he did what his father did not. He followed 208 people for 23 years and found that 53-68% of his subjects significantly improved or recovered.

"I have found the prognosis of schizophrenia to be more hopeful than it has long been considered to be."

-- Dr. Manfred Bleuler




...85% of our clients (all diagnosed as severely schizophrenic) at the Diabasis center not only improved, with no medications, but most went on growing after leaving us.

- Dr. John Weir Perry

Source: Trials of the Visionary Mind




Gerd Huber and colleagues in Germany followed 502 for 22 years after their episode of schizophrenia and found 57% significantly improved or recovered.

"Schizophrenia does not seem to be a disease of slow progressive deterioration. Even in the second and third decades of illness, there is still the potential for full or partial recovery."

-- Dr. Gerd Huber




There have now been three World Health Organisation studies showing that the outcome for schizophrenia in Developing countries is better than in the Industrialised world. This is extraordinary. How can places without psychiatrists, psychiatric nurses, psychiatric facilities, rehabilitation programs, medication and therapies come up with results considerably better than our sophisticated, scientific industrialised world? A country such as the USA spends 1% of its GNP on one illness, schizophrenia, and has results far worse than countries that don’t spend anything!

-- Dr. Simon Baker

Source: The Developing World Experience




Luc Ciompi and Christian Muller in a medium-sized city in Lausanne followed 289 people for 37 years ... they found 53% significantly improved or recovered.

"The long-term evolution of schizophrenia is much more variable and considerably better than heretofore admitted."

- Drs. Luc Ciompi and Christian Muller




The WHO Study of Schizophrenia is a long-term follow-up study of 14 culturally diverse, treated incidence cohorts and 4 prevalence cohorts comprising 1,633 persons diagnosed with schizophrenia and other psychotic illnesses. Global outcomes at 15 and 25 years were assessed to be favorable for greater than 50% of all participants. The researchers observed that 56% of the incidence cohort and 60% of the prevalence cohort were judged to be recovered. [...] The course and outcome for persons diagnosed with schizophrenia were far better in the “developing countries” than for such persons in the “developed” world of Western Europe and America.

-- Dr. Brian Koehler

Source: Long Term Follow-Up Studies




[Dr.] Ming Tsuang and the Iowa 500 study had the strictest criteria for schizophrenia but found 46% improved. Using the DSM III diagnosis, we found 62-68%. Dr. Ogawa et al. in Japan found 57% and Michael DeSisto in Maine found 49%.



Among those who went through the OPT program, incidence of schizophrenia declined substantially, with 85% of the patients returning to active employment and 80% without any psychotic symptoms after five years. All this took place in a research project wherein only about one third of clients received neuroleptic medication.

Source: Dialogue is the Change




When I was a staff psychologist at a neuropsychiatric institute in 1965, I conducted an experimental interview with an 18-year-old woman diagnosed as "acute paranoid schizophrenic." I'd been influenced by the writings of Carl Jung, Thomas Szasz, and Ayn Rand, and was puzzled about methods for training psychiatric residents that are unreported in the literature. I prepared for the interview by asking myself questions. I wondered what would happen if I listened to the woman as a friend, avoided letting my mind diagnose her, and questioned her to see if there was a link between events in her life and her feelings of self-esteem.

-- Dr. Al Seibert

Source: How Non-Diagnostic Listening Lead to Cure




A person receiving a diagnosis of schizophrenia loses hope and enters a state of anguish caused by an experience of meaninglessness, hopelessness and helplessness. Much of this hopelessness is not due to the disease but to the mental health systems designed to treat it. Mental health systems are set up for maintenance and usually communicate that life is without hope of significant accomplishment once serious mental illness has set in. Yet, experience shows that recovery from mental illness is possible.

-- Dr. Edward Knight

Source: Recovery





Hello, my name is Judi Chamberlin and unlike the two previous speakers, I am not a mental health professional. I was a person labeled with a serious mental health illness - I was diagnosed with schizophrenia when I was 21 years old, and I'm a person who's recovered. So I'm an example of what we're talking about today. And I think it's very important to recognize that recovery is not something that happens to a few exceptional, privileged or lucky people ... recovery is possible for everyone who's been diagnosed with a major mental illness.

Being told that you have schizophrenia is a devastating experience. Especially when I was told this, I was also told that I would always be ill, I was going to need treatment and it was terrifying. This happened in a time in my life when lots of things were going wrong and to be told that they weren't going to get better ... that things weren't going to come together for me, was taking away hope at a time when I needed, more than anything else, people believing in me. And I needed support, I needed someone to say that there are ways out of this morass you find yourself in and I wasn't hearing that. And what compounded it was that these people were the experts. They were the ones who were supposed to have the answers. So it was a terrible blow to be told by these experts that I was never going to get better.

-- Judi Chamberlain

Source: Confessions of a Non-Compliant Patient




We who have recovered from mental illness know from our personal experience that recovery is real. We know that recovery is more than remission with a brooding disease hidden in our hearts. We have experienced healing and we are whole where we were broken. Yet we are frequently confronted by unconvinced professionals who ask, "How can you have recovered from such a hopeless situation?" When we present them with our testimonies they say that we are exceptions. They call us pseudoconsumers. They say that our experience does not relate to that of their seriously, biologically ill, inpatients.

I recently re-experienced this negative attitude about recovery. A friend of mine, during a discussion in a psychology class, said she knew someone who had schizophrenia, recovered and became a psychiatrist. "He must have been misdiagnosed," was the professor's response. So my friend reviewed my earlier symptoms with me. I met the DSM IV criteria for schizophrenia in the interval from 1969-74. When she presented my history to her professor, he reversed his position and said that the diagnosis of schizophrenia must have been correct. He doubted I had recovered and said, "we now have a case of an impaired physician."

By having earned board certification in psychiatry, having worked as medical director of a community mental health center for 11 years and having directed the National Empowerment Center for 3 years I have proven that I am not an impaired physician. This episode reveals the depth of negative expectations which are taught to students. After all, mental illness is considered a terminal condition for which there is no cure. Therefore anyone who appears to have recovered must not have been sick. This leaves no one with first hand experience of what helps and what hurts to speak for those who currently cannot speak due to their distress.

-- Dr. Daniel Fisher

Source: Healing and Recovery are Real




There have been many studies in the USA and other countries that point out that treatment - if practiced in a way that provides patient training leads to a normal life style - that includes jobs, education, and social skills training and relieves the guilt and loneliness associated with these conditions - then even the lowest level of schizophrenia can change and be reduced or eliminated from the lives of those who suffer this condition. The tragedy is that somehow - professionals - all over with some exceptions do not believe this is a reality.

What’s wrong with them?

Source: Why Can't They Recover?






#30 spiritual_emergency

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 02:36 AM


Recluse: What I am shitting on, and I've been quite clear about this, so I fail to see why your understanding is so muddied, is someone who is encouraging an unproven, pseudo-scientific approach to treating schizophrenia, or for that matter any mental illness.

I can only presume that you are one of those people who considers it to be a form of personal hardship to click on a link.

I do believe that many people can recover from schizoprenia, Recluse. I'm not so sure about close-mindedness. It's possible there may be no cure for that.









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