[Niz]

I want more friends.

But I don't want more friends.

I can't make any more friends. At all. High school sucked so much because everyone would be gathering in their groups, and I would just be... there. You know? THERE. I apparently wasn't even normal enough for the crazy and weird clique. It made me sad, because I'd sit in the corner during lunch by my lonesome and listen to their nifty conversations, and I'd think "I could totally relate to that!" and then I'd think "I should go over there and talk to them." but THEN I'd think "Erm, or not... there ARE a lot of people over there..."

And the people who did try to make friends with me... a few of them kept at it and they're still around, but everyone else was all "NiiiIIIiizz. She doesn't say much. Say more things, Niz!" But I can't. WHY CAN'T I I DON'T KNOW. It's not like the world is going to blow up if I try to join in on a conversation or attempt to make small talk! It's not like everyone is going to laugh at every word I say, but there's just this THING in my mind! I don't know what it is, really.

Fast forward to my failed attempt at college, when I was in my dorm, I would completely go out of my way to avoid my two roommates. I still had no idea what they looked like or what their names were when I left that dorm. And I went out of my way to stay away from everyone I didn't know. Like a stranger came up to me and said "Ah! I heart your RyoOhki backpack thingy!" and she looked awesome and was wearing a Halo shirt. We could've been friends! But nooo, I've gotta freak out and think "OH DEAR GOD A STRANGER IS TALKING TO ME? TO ME?! TO ME! PLAN B." I just smiled a little and said "Thanks." and walked as fast as I could far far away.

And you know what I really really dread? When the friends I do have invite me over to hang out, but they've also invited other friends of theirs over without telling me! WHY. And I walk into their room and there are FIVE OTHER PEOPLE SITTING ON THE FLOOR. Lemme tell you, at the first available opportunity, I am OUT OF THERE. And if escape is not possible, then I'll sneak away from the group and go hide in the bathroom/bedroom/pantry/fridge/what have you. Note to my friends: I DO NOT WANT TO MEET ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS. Exception to maybe ONE friend, yes, if you invite one person over besides me, that's only mildly uncomfortable and I'll live. But groups of five people are RIGHT OUT.

No, I do NOT want to go to your party, and I'm obviously trying to talk my way out of it because I don't want to be around fifteen hundred people all socializing at once. No, I do NOT want to go to the movies with you and three of your pals, because I'll end up being the odd man out of my own accord. No, I do NOT want to go to your army club or your anime club or your support group, because clubs are for talking to people with like interests, and I can't even do THAT, so yes I will tell you that your club sucks and I don't want to go.

I actually have NO idea how I got the friends I have right now. When I think about it, half of them are just really old friends from the time when I wasn't afraid of the entire world, and the other half must've just kept bugging the hell out of me or something. I don't know. I'm glad I have them though, because otherwise I'd be a hermit and spend all my time online on message boards with people I like to think of as my friends.

I wish I could be one of those people who could immediately latch on to a few people in the room and strike up some random conversation, but I can't. Why? I don't CARE about Bipolar disorder or ADD or what have you, I just want to TALK TO PEOPLE.

At least I can look back and say I was freakin' TOUGH during my school years. Most people with no friends were depressive and suicidal, but not ME buddy, I was a delusional person with an invisible floating wolf to keep me company, so it was all good! Syntax the wolf would talk to me during lunch, and I would just stare off into space and listen to her. People would think I was a statue and one guy commented that if I were to ever make any sudden movements, he'd dive for the floor... I took that as a compliment, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it that way.

That's the way social phobia feels for me. I wish someone could relate...

[S9]

Niz, on Oct 28 2005, 11:10 PM, said:

I wish I could be one of those people who could immediately latch on to a few people in the room and strike up some random conversation, but I can't. Why? I don't CARE about Bipolar disorder or ADD or what have you, I just want to TALK TO PEOPLE.

That's the way social phobia feels for me. I wish someone could relate...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Niz, I could relate to every word you said. Various folk have tried to make me feel better about my social phobia. My brother says I just need new shock absorbers. I had a therapist tell me one time, after I'd been wailing a gnashing my teeth over my inability to make small talk in social situations, that I was not a "chirpper." Huh? But she went on to explain that some people can walk in a room and start bullshitting with anyone about anything. It just flows, bullshit stuff...mundane, boring (ADDs can't handle that) crap. drivel. I start talking to one person and 5 minutes later we're talking seriously about love, loss, grace, spirits. I've met some cool people being myself, but I've had far more to the, ahem thing, and slip away. Yeah well, it's always my choice to leave too, even if I just got there and I do that.

I sense your a bit younger than my middle age, if not, I'm sorry. But I just want to say, it get easier. Over time.

But I do hear you loud and clear and you aint the only one.
Suze

[Devnul]

Niz, on Oct 28 2005, 11:10 PM, said:

I actually have NO idea how I got the friends I have right now. When I think about it, half of them are just really old friends from the time when I wasn't afraid of the entire world, and the other half must've just kept bugging the hell out of me or something. I don't know. I'm glad I have them though, because otherwise I'd be a hermit and spend all my time online on message boards with people I like to think of as my friends.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh, that's pretty much what I'm like. I've avoided for so long that I only know like one person on AIM, and that's it.  Haven't even had a job for five years, job hunting is such an overwhelming task that I freeze up even thinking about it. I just get... frozen... even thinking of meeting new people. Can't get any assistance, the county's only free mental health clinic told me I was fine within fifteen minutes of meeting me. Oh yeah, fun times.

What's it like for me? It's like there is an invisible wall separating me from everyone else. In the center there is me. Outside this wall are over six billion of these things. They move and talk and think and all the other stuff I do, but I am not one of them, and in a way I know that they sense it. As such I feel this silent yet powerful sense of dread and fear with even the slightest interaction with them.

When I do get out I feel quickly alienated. They have these silent rules that they have with interaction.

They ask questions for which they do not want the honest answer of, such as "So how are you doing today?" I'd answer honestly (feeling groggy, bored stupid, ready to go nuts after an internet flamewar, etc), but they don't really mean what they are asking. I can answer with a minimal "fine", but I'd come off as an antisocial jerk. (I am not a jerk.) How does one answer such questions without coming off as a weirdo?

They say things which they do not mean, such as "Have a nice day". Frankly, they're paid to say that and don't really mean it. I could become a multibillionare or get hit by a bus, they would not honestly grieve or care. How does one respond to that?

They have these silent rules while they communicate, encompassing body language, speech tone, and the like. I do not grasp this. To top it off they feel the need to constantly discuss the most meaningless crap such as the weather, what's on TV, and the like. So not only do I feel alienated, but also aggravated at the superficial nature of them.

I simply do not understand them, do not wish to have contact with them, and do my best to avoid them whenever possible. I can spend days... weeks... years... just totally isolating myself from them.

But at the same time I want to be social, I want to have friends and fuck girls and have lazy Sunday conversations over coffee and laugh and do all the other social things that social people do. But there is this wall...

That's what it feels like to me. An invisible wall that both protects and imprisons me on the inside, created by and against the odd social things on the outside. In many ways I want outside the wall, but the more time I spend looking on the outside the more I despise it.

Hope I made sense.

[intuit72]

I too can definitely relate to what you all experience.  Im 33, so high school was over 15 years ago, but much of it i can remember like it was yesterday... esp being so uncomfortable socially.  One of my classes was drafting and architectural drawing... and the teacher (Mr Lort..lol) was really nice... he allowed me to go to his room and work on homework..etc during lunch.  So at lunch thats how i would hide...from the lunch time social hour.  Occasionally i would get asked to go with the guys out to like burger king or something...most the time i wouldnt... i can remember going maybe twice.  I was so uncomfortable that i just ended up going back to my hole the next day.

I didnt have one truly close friend all thru high school...just sort of the superficial friendly interactions.  Never had anyone over on weekends or went out.  I was on the swim team for one season, but didnt go back the next...just wasnt comfortable.  I continually felt like an alien around all these normal natarally social people.

Thats pretty much how i continue to feel today.  I think about how ive tried to be involved and make friends.... maintaining friendships has always felt like more effort and struggle than its worth.  At the same time though...i  feel lonely quite often.  I dont ever feel like i measure up to others.  SP has robbed me from so many experiences and the enrichment of life.  I was certainly college material, but never obtained a degree.  I have been passionate and interested in certain things... and end up not fully experiencing and growing because im too anxious and uncomfortable to interact with others.  It is a prison... one with thick glass walls... i can see out and view the normal world... the humor, the closeness, the majority of people who never have to think twice before interacting with people.  Inside there i am all alone...sometimes in misery and very much in frustration because i want to be different but nothing has worked in the past ...not long term... and ive ended up with little hope for the future.  Often i feel that others can look in and see me too inside my prison and they just feel sorry or think...my god whats with him?  Its so easy and natural for most people.  Nardil was the only med that really enabled my true self to come out... and well it ended up making me hypomanic...so that had to be stopped...figures.

I often think that if i could meet someone around my age who also experiences SP.... we might be able to form a good friendship.  I know that having someone to spend time with who truly understands would help.  Im always more comfortable doing things, or in new situations if im with someone else i know.  Shit, saying that it sounds like im a child or something...thats how it feels too.  I wonder how much ive grown socially since i was like 10 years of age.  I dont know maybe being around someone like myself ...we would just sort of hide together.... but hell thats better than being alone i would say.  The question is ...how would i find others like myself... who live near me?  I mean the whole MO of people with SP is a huge barrier to ever meeting eachother.

Anyway just wanted to express how much, i too, can relate to what you have and do go thru NiZ... youre not alone, but i certainly know it feels that way.  Guess thats it... hope my writing is understandable... i know my style is sometimes im sure ...hard to follow.

Scott

... i wont even answer the door on halloween to give out treats to kids...it causes too much anxiety inside.  Sad...really sad!  Everybody loves halloween right?... not me... i never have.

[ncc1701]

Heya,

Just want to add that I get the same feelings.

Especially the high school stuff.

What Niz described is how it feels for me too.

Also, the meaningless small-talk thing.

WTF are people saying, when they don't say what they mean, or when they babble about a bunch of boring crap?

The therapist I dumped didn't understand any of what I was saying about this.  She actually told me to try engaging people in "small-talk" and trying to steer the conversation to something I thought was more interesting.

Idiot.  I'm not five years old, I've tried lots of tricks before.

When I do that, I end up lecturing, soapboxing, answering questions people asked (to which they really didn't want answers -- then why the heck ask a question?).

mini-rant.  Just wanted to say you're not the only one.

Hate social phobia.  Took away all these experiences I would have liked to have.

Hoping for fresh insights from my psychiatrist.

--ncc--

[Jemini]

In middle school, my 8th school, people teased me and occasionally threw things at me in the halls or as I'd walk home. I obsessively counted in my head for a while. By high school I learned to welcome the anonymity of people being too busy with their cliques and little dramas to bother taunting or ostracizing anyone. One of my friends had blown his brains out in 8th grade. Something finally broke in me around then. In my sophomore year, I discovered pot and LSD, and everything changed. Lots of friends, lots of things to do. By late into my junior year, after dropping out and then finding a private school, I had become popular enough to be nominated as school president, which I declined because I don't like social commitments that much. Somehow in college people sensed my sickness like lions sense the sick gazelles, and people again occasionally threw things at me out of passing cars. But I had my musician friends and my stoner friends and I had girlfriends and I was OK with being around people generally.

When I was much younger, I had an imaginary friend named "George". Yes, George. And he ran away. I am not shitting you. I don't think about that too often, but it sounds really nutcasy doesn't it?

I didn't meet the classic criteria of future serial killers -- wetting the bed until adolescence, hurting or killing small animals, and starting fires. I remember seeing a few kids around like that and thinking they were seriously messed up, even compared to me. On the other hand, now I'm a single white male, aged 25-35, educated and highly intelligent but with an erratic working history due to mental problems, and I recently have been considering buying a white van, because it would help with construction work. Then I'd fit the classic FBI profile. That'll be a nice feeling.

Sorry I don't know how I got there.

[Jemini]

Oh and on the positive side, in recent years I had a circle of 5-10 pretty good friends, knew a bunch of people from a church I went to, and was pretty close to getting married. All that fell apart and I'm back to being the social outsider, but I'm not haunted by self-hatred and fear anymore. A lot of the reason for being alone these days is lack of money, which I'm expecting will not be permanent. And over the years a lot of people have told me how much they value me in different ways from being funny to wise to adventurous. On these boards a lot of people think I'm arrogant or annoying (I'm assuming), and I don't even care because I know who I am and I know anyone who thinks this is only half right.

[Lisa_K]

I dont know if I can exactly pin point where my social anxiety started. I know that when I was in early grade school, I would literally vomitt getting off the bus sometimes from the stress of being picked on, bullied, or teased. It didnt help that I had the first grade teacher from hell that put me out in the hallway for 5 hours at a time because I didnt understand math, therefore leaving me unable to understand everything else that was going on in other subjects with other students...I always felt about 3 steps behind...and I felt like the 'dummy'...matter of fact, all through gradeschool, until my parents hired tutors and I was able to get caught up with other kids...I was called just that...the dummy.
It also didnt help that I was awkward, I was abused when I was young...I was uncomfortable in my own skin....I felt others could see how I was feeling. I felt dirty, rancid half the time...and I was skinny, puny...
Soooooo...when I reached high school age, and I started to finally look like something other than a stick figure, and the boys took notice, out came what I thought was some sort of self esteem, or bravery, or confidense...not really... I had my heart broken. I had friends hurt me...then epilepsy came, I felt even freakier than before...and if it werent bad enough that people could sense my helplessness...its like they REALLY could now...and some try to take advantage. I withdrew. It caused ALOT of trust issues on my part yet to this day.
Sometimes its hard for me to make friends because in the back of my head...I cant help but think, what do they REALLY want???? I aggonize over having to do stupid things, even things that are years away...like my disability review in 2-3 years, everyday I think about it at least once...I have a couple of places I feel cozy enough to go and 'hang out'...I have one true friend...I have some so-called friends that if I see them by chance(mind you, I live in a small town and I dont actually see people too often), I would say hi, and be on my way. I just dont want the hastle.
A family member recently ran into a person I went to school with...she started asking said family member about me, saying she couldnt stand me, and that I was 'weird' or something to that nature. A week or two later, this same former schoolmate ended up on my voicemail (somehow she got my number) "HI!!! How are you??? Maybe we can get together and do something!!! Ive missed you!!!" Blah blah blah...I just dont like phoniness.
I dont know, trust issues, my social phobias have alot to do with that, and other things, epilepsy doest help sometimes, Im definately getting better though. A little at a time. Sorry for the ramble on this...Had alot on my mind this afternoon.

[synthetic]

Jemini, on Nov 27 2005, 09:01 PM, said:

On these boards a lot of people think I'm arrogant or annoying (I'm assuming), and I don't even care because I know who I am and I know anyone who thinks this is only half right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which half?  I'm guessing annoying.

[Jemini]

Does anyone ever stop and think and maybe get angry at the cosmic forces that conspired to create the following life story: You're born. You're violated or mistreated. As a result of which, you become skittish of others and don't engage socially as much as normal. As a result of which, others single you out  for torment and/or ostracize you. As a result of which, you develop into an eccentric/deviant/weirdo. As a result of which peers in the adult world blame you for anything going wrong in your life, including any of the early shit you went through that you might get close enough to disclose to them. Because you're a weirdo. As a result of which society doesn't really seem bothered by the fact that you are discriminated against, and in fact this seems to be consensually appropriate for most people -- don't include the weirdo. As a result of which you go slowly mad. By the time you're old enough to piece together the story and see why you were always different, and how it wasn't in fact your fault or your choosing, it's too late. Because you're a weirdo?

I do.

This post has been edited by Jemini: 29 November 2005 - 08:06 PM

[ncc1701]

Heya Jemini,

No.

Because it doesn't help.

--ncc--

[Steve@3AM]

Jemini

Personally I'm one of the people who think you are wise! Some of your comments are very insightful and I learn!

I have a lot in common with all these posts too. Won't enumerate!

I don't have problems understanding small talk. How are you etc. It's just a way of giving an opening to conversation. It's really not BS (At that point - I think - though a lot of what follows can be!) It's just not really possible to walk up to a stranger and start talking about some "heavy" subject without having any idea if they have any interest!  I just don't understand what to DO with it! If the topic becomes one with "teeth" - Something with thought, analysis, philosophy etc I can really get into it.If it's about "things" or things that require "remembering" something, I'm lost.

The problem with the "intellectual discussion" of ideas is that - for me - it's also a way of keeping a distance. I don't really make a connection. I don't understand what I'm supposed to do when it starts going in that direction. I start fumbling and end up standing near a wall watching. A former shrink - long ago - told me I wasn't emotionally "available". Yup! But the advice to "join groups" "find a hobby that would help you meet people" etc? Riiiight!

The "glass cage" analogy is one I also use. I feel like I'm inside and watching people go by, interact etc but they can't see me and I don't understand what they are doing!

The progession of causes and effects that get us where we are now is awesome and confusing to try to untangle. I think there is merit to it - then I think it's a waste of energy. Knowing some of it, I think, helps to understand myself and maybe give places for me to focus on to try to change. It's strange to think that if one or two things were different early on that there would have been an entirely diffeerent outcome. If I hadn't had the one scary teacher! If someone had understood my memory/ADD issues and helped me understand and deal with them early on - instead of being comnfused all my life!

etc, etc, etc!

This post has been edited by Steve@3AM: 29 November 2005 - 08:54 PM

[Jemini]

It has helped me a lot to understand my story (as summarized above -- be grateful I didn't spew Metallica lyrics), even if at times (less these days) I sit back and rue the cosmic forces. The truth is always helpful in the long-run. And it's worth understanding how things went wrong. This interesting series running on NPR that I heard today was talking to a guy who grew up in Juvenile Detention and prison, and he was saying how much it transformed him when he took a college psychology class, to start thinking about why his parents had been the way they had, and why he had done things he had done. Just the idea that there was a why was a burden lifted. That's how I feel.

Smalltalk serves a purpose that is part of the unwritten rules of social conduct, deconstructed by social scientists of different stripes. There is a natural progression from neutral to disclosing to revealing hidden vulnerabilities to emotionally enmeshed. You might keep your postman near one end of this scale but allow your soulmate/spouse/partner to get to the other end. And the way people progress has a certain dance to it. You always start towards the neutral end -- even if you've been more intimate with someone, but on first seeing them, perhaps after a period of separation. So you start with the weather, banal observations. And if someone indicates emotional openness -- being warm or friendly -- you might break the ice a bit by being slightly more personal. There's a protocol to the progression. Usually when one person reveals something more personal or shows a vulnerability, the other reciprocates. It's such a well-formed protocol (that sounds so tech geeky) that reciprocating by disclosing a vulnerability is one way of letting another know that you are accepting their disclosure. Not reciprocating, or disclosing too much too fast, will typically shut down the whole protocol and if you do this consistently with someone they'll likely come to think of you as someone never to proceed past intimacy level X with. Which explains how someone not aware of these rules can find the world to be mostly shallow people -- no one is letting them into their more private lives.

Point being, smalltalk is a necessary evil.

I like intellectual conversations myself too (which are neither neutral smalltalk nor personal and intimate necessarily). On the internet a lot of these protocols get seriously munged. Most of the non-verbal communication is absent, and the relationships are less subject to normal social rules. There should really be some sort of RFC for human-to-human intimacy esclation protocol (HHIEP) over HTTP.

OK I need sleep.

[Lisa_K]

Jemini, on Nov 29 2005, 09:05 PM, said:

Does anyone ever stop and think and maybe get angry at the cosmic forces that conspired to create the following life story: You're born. You're violated or mistreated. As a result of which, you become skittish of others and don't engage socially as much as normal. As a result of which, others single you out  for torment and/or ostracize you. As a result of which, you develop into an eccentric/deviant/weirdo. As a result of which peers in the adult world blame you for anything going wrong in your life, including any of the early shit you went through that you might get close enough to disclose to them. Because you're a weirdo. As a result of which society doesn't really seem bothered by the fact that you are discriminated against, and in fact this seems to be consensually appropriate for most people -- don't include the weirdo. As a result of which you go slowly mad. By the time you're old enough to piece together the story and see why you were always different, and how it wasn't in fact your fault or your choosing, it's too late. Because you're a weirdo?

I do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I used to get angry at this concept...ALOT...but then, as I got older...I realised that alot of things werent my fault, Im weird and strange and different because I am...society, 'whoever' wants to perceice me that way because of things that were beyond my control...I acted out as a youth and as a young adult because I was riddled with self hatred, and had issues beyond my own comprehension, none the less anyone elses who was suppossed to be responsible for me. I became more withdrawn and untrustworthy and hermit like due to the fact that when i did reach out to others for some sort of help, they took advantage...thus, I learned some lessons in wrong ways...vicious cycles. I know that not all of the world is bad, I have had the privelage of experienceing good things as well, unfortunately the bad things shaped my psych before I had the chance to understand who I was...now Im picking the pieces up and placing them where they should go.
On another note...I dont like small talk...I realise it is a step in human interaction...but at somepoint in that step it becomes unnerving and with some people...I feel like Im speaking with Charlie Brown's teacher...or Im Charlie Brown's teacher...or something. I prefer deep conversation with someone who I can relate to, but I am also aware of the fact that I am not a know it all...so I will listenm to a conversation rather than join in when its something Im not as inclined to know as much about...

[Jemini]

That about sums it up.

I like the new avatar. It's all contemplaty.

Mwah wahh mw mwah wah wah.

[synthetic]

Jemini, on Nov 29 2005, 08:05 PM, said:

Does anyone ever stop and think and maybe get angry at the cosmic forces ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I used to, but it didn't do any good.  Universe could give a fuck about me being angry at it.  When I look back on my life and the lessons I have learned, as much as it has sucked, I wouldn't trade it for a "normal" life.  I feel that people such as ourselves have a deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us due to the fact that we have been forced to the edges of society.  Perspective and all that.

Jemini, on Nov 29 2005, 09:07 PM, said:

Point being, smalltalk is a necessary evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is one of the reasons I avoid talking to people if at all possible. 

[Lisa_K]

Jemini, on Dec 1 2005, 06:16 PM, said:

That about sums it up.

I like the new avatar. It's all contemplaty.

Mwah wahh mw mwah wah wah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like your new avatar too. I always liked Kermitt as a kid. One of my favorite parts of 'The Muppet Movie' is when he's on a 10 speed...that mental picture always craks me up...and he rocks the banjo in the rainbow song...Kermitt is a cool frog.

[Jemini]

I play that song and sing with my Kermit voice. Don't tell anyone.

I like the bit when Kermit and Fozzie are driving across America and Kermit has the map and they come to a fork in the road and he says "bear left," and Fozzie says "right, frog."

[Lisa_K]

Jemini, on Dec 9 2005, 01:33 PM, said:

I play that song and sing with my Kermit voice. Don't tell anyone.

I like the bit when Kermit and Fozzie are driving across America and Kermit has the map and they come to a fork in the road and he says "bear left," and Fozzie says "right, frog."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another good  Muppet Movie moment, when they meet Big Bird in the middle of the high way, and hes going to New York (I think) to make it big in public television...and they were like...acting like...yeah...whatever...like he had no clue.

You know we could do this all day about the muppet movie...haha

[Jemini]

movin' right along...