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To what extent does the brain recover after stopping antipsychotics?


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#41 konings

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:33 AM

Medications are administered daily or so because they start to leave your blood fast. The receptors the drug bound to free gradually during a much longer time.




#42 jjassonn

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:53 PM

It was most certainly the medication which caused the effects in my case. All the effects surfaced exactly when I started taking the medication. And not a single one of the effects has waned in over six weeks since stopping. I'm still sexually dysfunctional, i still have mild akathisia, music still doesn't do anything for me, I'm still unable to read anything complex or follow plots, my brain still feels highly fucked, etc.

 

I'm thinking about trying shrooms or LSD in an attempt to... I don't know.

 

But I have zero faith the effects will ever go away. 



#43 Forbidden91

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:05 PM

Again, cause versus correlation. You probably didn't need the antipsychotics until you became progressively worse. Many indications antipsychotics are used grow progressively worse without medication. I'm not quite sure if you actually shared, what the usage was indicated for (bipolar, psychosis, schizophrenia, schizoaffective, ptsd, etc.)...and how long did you use it. Using illegal drugs, are never going to be recommended and if you have an underlying psychotic disorder you can do way more damage. I don't know if you want someone to try to convince you to stop doing it, but I'm certainly not going to tell you not to. If you really want to do drugs, you are going to find a way. Again as everyone has told you, antipsychotics don't generally last that long, and Geodon doesn't come in long acting injections, so that isn't what you used. Most people are CONVINCED that medications made them worse, because the mental illness they have or experience progressing for the worst. Just understand the consequences....and lets just say you were on a long acting injection, WHICH YOU AREN'T....purchasing 5-HTP (or an antidepressant in the SSRI class) would create seritonin, and taking L-Tyrosine or L-Dopa (even more effective) usually from the velvet bean would compete with the medication....again this could aggravate and underlying psychotic disorder, but this is much more safer and effective than taking illegal drugs, and would effectively compete for the receptors. You could better yet, discuss this with your doctor and he/she could prescribe you an antidepressant, however you probably shouldn't use antidepressants as a monotherapy if you are manic-depressive, as they exacerbate the condition. Oh, well, I hope, I helped, again I really do think you should consult a doctor (better yet a licensed psychiatrist). 

 

 

*Note many people are in absolute denial anything is wrong. Who wants to be "crazy", but it necessary to consider that your brain could be the issue, versus various medications you consumed. It is actually much more logical to come to the conclusion, that you have a problem. Oh well I hope I helped, and especially consider your age if you are in your early teens or twenties, these are the most prone periods for mental illness. When mental illness is caught early and treated, most people do hold the notion that the medications have in some way or another caused the issue. Now if you brought up you had a movement disorder...than you would receive support because it is much more probable, than what you are suggesting.

 

Again the half-life information "Ziprasidone's activity is primarily due to the parent drug. The multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of ziprasidone are dose-proportional within the proposed clinical dose range, and ziprasidone accumulation is predictable with multiple dosing. Elimination of ziprasidone is mainly via hepatic metabolism with a mean terminal half-life of about 7 hours within the proposed clinical dose range. Steady-state concentrations are achieved within one to three days of dosing. The mean apparent systemic clearance is 7.5 mL/min/kg. Ziprasidone is unlikely to interfere with the metabolism of drugs metabolized by cytochrome P450 enzymes."

 

 

I took some time to back up what I am saying...your brain is being damaged when it is "malfunctioning" it is going haywire. This is why people are bringing up brain damage as a possible reason, why you don't feel quite like yourself, and  the fact that if it continues you will suffer more of this. It is best to find medications that agree with you. 

 

"Shipwrecked neurons may explain why some mental illnesses such as panic, mania, psychosis, and even epilepsy have acute symptoms attributed to the brain being on fire, followed by the development of chronic empty symptoms attributed to burned-out neurons that are no longer able to mediate active symptoms or respond to treatment. Psychotropic drugs have long been recognized as firefighters, extinguishing the blaze of erupting symptoms of mental illness. "

 

http://www.psychiatr...torm/br5807.htm

 

It has long been known that depression and chronic stress shrinks the brain...some stuff to look at: http://news.yale.edu...an-shrink-brain

 

:smartass: I'm just as neurotic, about this kind of "stuff" and you probably aren't alone, good luck Jason. 


Edited by Forbidden91, 15 July 2013 - 09:43 PM.

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#44 lapd

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:41 AM

Again, cause versus correlation. You probably didn't need the antipsychotics until you became progressively worse. Many indications antipsychotics are used grow progressively worse without medication. I'm not quite sure if you actually shared, what the usage was indicated for (bipolar, psychosis, schizophrenia, schizoaffective, ptsd, etc.)...and how long did you use it. Using illegal drugs, are never going to be recommended and if you have an underlying psychotic disorder you can do way more damage. I don't know if you want someone to try to convince you to stop doing it, but I'm certainly not going to tell you not to. If you really want to do drugs, you are going to find a way. Again as everyone has told you, antipsychotics don't generally last that long, and Geodon doesn't come in long acting injections, so that isn't what you used. Most people are CONVINCED that medications made them worse, because the mental illness they have or experience progressing for the worst. Just understand the consequences....and lets just say you were on a long acting injection, WHICH YOU AREN'T....purchasing 5-HTP (or an antidepressant in the SSRI class) would create seritonin, and taking L-Tyrosine or L-Dopa (even more effective) usually from the velvet bean would compete with the medication....again this could aggravate and underlying psychotic disorder, but this is much more safer and effective than taking illegal drugs, and would effectively compete for the receptors. You could better yet, discuss this with your doctor and he/she could prescribe you an antidepressant, however you probably shouldn't use antidepressants as a monotherapy if you are manic-depressive, as they exacerbate the condition. Oh, well, I hope, I helped, again I really do think you should consult a doctor (better yet a licensed psychiatrist). 

 

 

*Note many people are in absolute denial anything is wrong. Who wants to be "crazy", but it necessary to consider that your brain could be the issue, versus various medications you consumed. It is actually much more logical to come to the conclusion, that you have a problem. Oh well I hope I helped, and especially consider your age if you are in your early teens or twenties, these are the most prone periods for mental illness. When mental illness is caught early and treated, most people do hold the notion that the medications have in some way or another caused the issue. Now if you brought up you had a movement disorder...than you would receive support because it is much more probable, than what you are suggesting.

 

Again the half-life information "Ziprasidone's activity is primarily due to the parent drug. The multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of ziprasidone are dose-proportional within the proposed clinical dose range, and ziprasidone accumulation is predictable with multiple dosing. Elimination of ziprasidone is mainly via hepatic metabolism with a mean terminal half-life of about 7 hours within the proposed clinical dose range. Steady-state concentrations are achieved within one to three days of dosing. The mean apparent systemic clearance is 7.5 mL/min/kg. Ziprasidone is unlikely to interfere with the metabolism of drugs metabolized by cytochrome P450 enzymes."

 

 

I took some time to back up what I am saying...your brain is being damaged when it is "malfunctioning" it is going haywire. This is why people are bringing up brain damage as a possible reason, why you don't feel quite like yourself, and  the fact that if it continues you will suffer more of this. It is best to find medications that agree with you. 

 

"Shipwrecked neurons may explain why some mental illnesses such as panic, mania, psychosis, and even epilepsy have acute symptoms attributed to the brain being on fire, followed by the development of chronic empty symptoms attributed to burned-out neurons that are no longer able to mediate active symptoms or respond to treatment. Psychotropic drugs have long been recognized as firefighters, extinguishing the blaze of erupting symptoms of mental illness. "

 

http://www.psychiatr...torm/br5807.htm

 

It has long been known that depression and chronic stress shrinks the brain...some stuff to look at: http://news.yale.edu...an-shrink-brain

 

:smartass: I'm just as neurotic, about this kind of "stuff" and you probably aren't alone, good luck Jason. 

The thing is these reports come from lot's of people who've been prescribed AP's for something like problems with sleeping, depression, or even misdiagnosed and they are all similar. In an attempt to find a solution to reversing the damage in my case I've talked to I think 10-15 people who suffered the same symptoms after discontinuing the drugs (anything from Haldol to Zyprexa and Risperdal). The doctors, who've never took these drugs, just don't know their long-term effects, so consulting a pdoc won't help (I've talked to 2 of them, both were in denial). The half-life of the drug doesn't matter. The changes in brain chemistry/neuron activity caused by the drug molecules binding to neurons matter, but nobody can say to what extent these are reversible or what changes are to blame for particular side-effects (e.g. favourite music sounding "flat", even unpleasant)

 

It was most certainly the medication which caused the effects in my case. All the effects surfaced exactly when I started taking the medication. And not a single one of the effects has waned in over six weeks since stopping. I'm still sexually dysfunctional, i still have mild akathisia, music still doesn't do anything for me, I'm still unable to read anything complex or follow plots, my brain still feels highly fucked, etc.

 

I'm thinking about trying shrooms or LSD in an attempt to... I don't know.

 

But I have zero faith the effects will ever go away. 

Most people say it takes from several months to a year for these side-effects to subside. It's most likely a single dose of LSD won't help, just as a single dose of any drug. Moreover, in such a fucked up state LSD, just like weed, simply won't give you any pleasurable effects. I was out of the hospital early in April and until now I was virtually suicidal each day because of the effects you are experiencing now. In my case working out (jogging) has helped a bit, although during the first months the muscle pain (caused by muscle deterioration during the AP use) and lack of motivation allowed me to work out no more than 2 times a week. As for the meds, I'm on the following cocktail (designed after extensive web search on the topic); noopept , mirapex (pramipexole), Emoxypine (mexidol), SWJ, Rhodiola rosea extract. Looking into trying bromocriptine. AD's don't do any good at all, due to several reports. Actually not sure these meds do any good or it's just time, but at least I don't feel so shitty as a month ago. Though esthetic comprehension and music comprehension are def not back. Hang on there, you are the fourth person I know who is in such a state right now (most have been off meds from 3 to 6 months), so don't hesitate to pm me in a few months and I'll tell you to what extent it gets better. 



#45 jjassonn

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:36 PM

"Again, cause versus correlation. You probably didn't need the antipsychotics until you became progressively worse."

 

I have mere mild psychosis, not related to schizophrenia or bipolar or anything else. Mere mild psychosis triggered by smoking weed. That is it. I was mildly psychotic for six months before being put on antipsychotics, and nothing was wrong or changed or progressed during those six months. Then, in perfect correlation with an enormously powerful medication known to cause, albeit rarely, all of the symptoms I've experienced, I experienced, for the first time ever, very significant anhedonia/loss of musical pleasure, significant loss of sexual functioning, loss of memory both long term and short, stunted intelligence, loss of vocabulary, ceaseless akathisia (slightly unusual akathisia in that walking and moving around doesn't help very much), and just a terrible highly, highly, highly altered feeling in my brain that I very much hate, which seems to make me very uncomfortable socially. 

 

All of that reasoning is irrelevant though. I simply and plainly know beyond any doubt that the medication was the cause of the mind-fucking side effects.

 

 

 

lapd, did the people who say they've recovered after several months to a year recover fully, or basically fully at least, or is life merely now tolerable for them? 

 

 

 

edit: also, when people who haven't experienced this hear "anhedonia", they just have to assume normal run of the mill anhedonia, e.g. depression-based anhedonia. I've been depressed, and I know common anhedonia. Antipsychotic-induced antipsychotics is intensely hardcore, like all the side effects. Try to imagine being the very opposite of high (marijuana) permanently. That what it's like.


Edited by jjassonn, 18 July 2013 - 05:51 PM.


#46 lapd

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:57 AM

lapd, did the people who say they've recovered after several months to a year recover fully, or basically fully at least, or is life merely now tolerable for them? 

 

 

 

edit: also, when people who haven't experienced this hear "anhedonia", they just have to assume normal run of the mill anhedonia, e.g. depression-based anhedonia. I've been depressed, and I know common anhedonia. Antipsychotic-induced antipsychotics is intensely hardcore, like all the side effects. Try to imagine being the very opposite of high (marijuana) permanently. That what it's like.

Most say that they completely recovered after 1 year, though I've read 3 reports that even after a year they still didn't get their "old self's" back. Even for those who report complete recovery it might be just them getting used to the new state of mind and forgetting their old-self. As for tolerable - in my case it became tolerable (or I think so) only after 3.5 months after I ate the last pill. Basically until this week I felt almost suicidal and lay in bed all weekends. But I def notice that something is starting to come back. Excercising really helps, as well as the meds I've mentioned, I guess. I'm also extremely concerned with the loss of musical pleasure, I feel you there.  



#47 Narshe81

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

Hi,

 

I was forced to take Long Acting Injection antipsychotic for a year and it gave me ahedonia. I am suffering from almost every symptoms mentioned here. I also can't get high from weed or any enjoyment from alcohol/cigarettes. 

 

I have been off the med for one month now. The last injection was given to me at the beginning of September and they say it lasts for a month. I still feel like shit and everything still seem worthless. I am just a vegetable pacing around my parkade, waiting for bed time every day for the past year. 2013 has been the worst year of my life. 

 

I have been doing some research online about antipsychotic and came across your posts amongst many others who also suffer from it. lapd (the user name), can you get high off weed again yet?

 

Right now all I want is to be able to get high off weed again in order to help cope with the side effects of antipsychotics. I have read that you have to wait anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months after stopping to feel anything and I was wondering if that is true.

 

 

 

Antipsychotics are evil and I fear that it may have permanently damaged me. I am worried about my reward pathway and not being able to recover from ahedonia.


Diagnosis: Misdiagnosed for schizophrenia

Medication(s): Invega Sustenna 100mg/month for 10 months, Mirtazapine 30mg/night.

Current symptom(s): Severe anhedonia

 


#48 Wooster

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:26 AM

Being able to get high is less important of a priority for mental wellbeing than stability.

 

Antipsychotics are not evil. Personally, they saved my life when I needed a chemical lifeline to stay alive.

 

If your priority is being able to get high off weed to cope with the side effects, please talk to your provider to see what other options are available to you, and ask for a drug abuse assessment. You can also try asking for referrals to good mental health therapists to learn other ways to manage and recover from your challenges.

 

If this thread continues to focus on "I can't get high... when can I get high" it will unfortunately have to be closed. There's a lot of useful conversation happening here, so please keep focused on the topic of brains recovering from med side effects rather than getting high.


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#49 DanTheMan

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:16 PM

I can relate Narsh81.

 

Yeah I won't comment on the pot thing as that's really not the issue.

 

My anhedonia set in shortly after commencing anti-psychotics too. For a long while I was non-compliant with my meds because of the fear that they were causing these troubles. My dx is drug induced psychosis so it definitely doesn't relate to anything on the schizophrenia spectrum like negative symptoms. I find I can't seem to feel pleasure in anything - TV, movies, music, conversations  and even just cigarette  smoking or alcohol. This seems to be a most steadfastly stubborn feeling that is impossible to shake off. All day, everyday am just a emotionless zombie. Actually scratch that, I DO have emotions- just the bad ones like fear and anxiety.

 

I have convinced myself that this is caused by the meds. My psychiatrist advised that it is possible for the meds to make people feel this way but I don't know if he actually understood the severity of it. I have been given an anti-depressant but that doesn't seem to help either.

 

I hope that these symptoms start to fade for you now that you are no longer on the meds. I would expect that it may take a while for the brain to re-adjust to the state it was in before medication??? Please update this thread if there is any improvement - I would like to have some hope that this God-awful nothingness will pass once I'm off the meds.


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#50 Narshe81

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:11 PM

I am an artist and used to be motivated, happy, and outgoing. Soon after having started antipsychotics I noticed I have lost my creativity and find it difficult to concentrate on anything. Everything became worthless and I have no willpower or motivation to do anything. I wasn't like this at all before I started antipsychotics. I sure had some minor delusions and they are gone now. I don't even think it was the medication that got rid of it too, I felt like I just figured out that the ideas were crazy on my own.

 

The medication took everything from me. I can no longer function and I cannot find joy or pleasure from anything. I have lost my job and just spending my days feeling like dead inside with constant feeling of despair and anxiousness. All I can think about is how much longer do I have to feel like this and fear that it is permanent. I have read many posts from many different people about antipsychotics and found only bad news about it. Many people don't recover after a year of stopping the medication. Many reported permanent side effects of the med years after stopping. 

 

The reason I am so obsessed about getting high off weed is because I use it as my marker for recovery. I figure the day I can get high again would mean that my brain has recovered. So far I haven't noticed ANY improvements after having been off the med for a month now. I am scared to death that my dopamine and serotonin receptors or my mesolimbic pathway are permanently damaged.

 

How can this sort of medication be prescribed like this? They even prescribe it to children. I don't think it's right. This med does more harm than good in my opinion. I understand that it may have helped some people, but I figure the symptoms of the illness has to be really severe to the point that the person cannot function without the med to warrant the use of antipsychotics. I personally think the maker of the drugs have intentionally failed to report all the side effects of the med and just want to get as much profit from it as possible.

 

 

What if I have to live like this forever? I have been seriously contemplating suicide. I don't want to live like this. 


Diagnosis: Misdiagnosed for schizophrenia

Medication(s): Invega Sustenna 100mg/month for 10 months, Mirtazapine 30mg/night.

Current symptom(s): Severe anhedonia

 


#51 Narshe81

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:18 PM

Forgot to add: I was given 100mg of Paliperidone injection every month for a year. They are LAI (Long-Acting Injections) and they last for a month. The last shot I got was beginning of September.

 

All I want is my old brain back. With or without the psychosis, I don't care. I just want to be able to function and enjoy life again. I wonder if my dosage of 100mg per month would be considered high and the time I was on it has been too long? Most people I have read has been on such low dosages I wonder why I was put on 100mg. 


Edited by Narshe81, 06 November 2013 - 02:21 PM.

Diagnosis: Misdiagnosed for schizophrenia

Medication(s): Invega Sustenna 100mg/month for 10 months, Mirtazapine 30mg/night.

Current symptom(s): Severe anhedonia

 


#52 Wooster

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 05:46 PM

You are entitled to your opinion, Narshe.

 

However, CB is a pro-med, pro-treatment site.

 

We encourage people to work with their treatment teams to find solutions to their problems, including med side effects and after effects.


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#53 DanTheMan

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:14 PM

 

What if I have to live like this forever? I have been seriously contemplating suicide. I don't want to live like this. 

 

Narshe, from my experience, I don't think it's a lifetime deal. I have recently changed meds and can actually feel a difference. I'm smiling a tad more and am starting to "feel" conversations again. I'm down but not out... if you know what I mean.

 

I know what you mean about not wanting to live out the rest of your life feeling the way you do but I honestly think that things will change for you. My life is by no means perfect, but I can feel the grip of depression loosening. This may happen for you too. You won't notice it happening until you look back on the prior months, and maybe you'll see by comparison that you have improved a bit. This is what keeps me going. Bit by bit.  

 

In the mean time now that you are med free, try to live the best life you can. Don't dwell on the past and please try not to obsess about the way you feel now. Life is dynamic, things will change.

 

Suicide is never the answer - Please go see a pdoc about this. 


Edited by DanTheMan, 06 November 2013 - 08:43 PM.

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#54 San

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:59 AM

No medication is going to permanently alter you, it will be out of your system eventually.

I was on long acting injections for a while, when I went off them (no longer necessary, normal pills were taking care of it, but sometimes I want to go back ON the injections because I feel like they had less side effects and it was easier..) everything went back to status quo pretty soon.

 

I do not advocate drug use. However, I did use illicit drugs while on a cocktail of medications, including a high dose of antipsychotics and more, and I did get high. The drugs were in the dissociative and psychedelic category. I'm not discussing it, and will not discuss it. It was stupid, I'm lucky I didn't really fuck myself over whether short or long term. I still continue to have the occasional drink once in a while, but have been off of all illicit substances for 5 years. 

 

Maybe you should rethink priorities if getting high is more important than your mental health and living life.

 

Here's some food for thought, that the actual psychiatric disorders can cause brain damage.

http://www.psycholog...ally-when-untre

 

 

Take depression as an example: common symptoms include mood changes (obviously) but also difficulty with cognitive functioning-trouble remembering things, difficulty making decisions, planning, setting priorities, and taking action.  These are symptoms that every therapist, psychiatrist, and other medical doctor see on a daily basis in people with depression.  Brain imaging studies using MRI scanning show that these common day-to-day depression symptoms are associated with abnormalities in specific areas of the brain

 

 

http://www.psychiatr...torm/br5807.htm

 

 

Psychotropic drugs have long been recognized as firefighters, extinguishing the blaze of erupting symptoms of mental illness. More recently, they have been recognized to double as safety inspectors, in fact preventing outbursts of future episodes.

 

 

http://www.schizophr...om/disease.htm#

 

 

Individuals with schizophrenia, including those who have never been treated, have a reduced volume of gray matter in the brain, especially in the temporal and frontal lobes. Recently neuroscientists have detected gray matter loss of up to 25% (in some areas). The damage started in the parietal, or outer, regions of the brain but spread to the rest of the brain over a five year period. Patients with the worst brain tissue loss also had the worst symptoms, which included hallucinations, delusions, bizarre and psychotic thoughts, hearing voices, and depression.

Please note that while there is significant loss of brain gray matter, this is not a reason to lose all hope.

 


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#55 yellowlovesgray

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:47 PM

I'm sure it was geodon because all of those effects were very new to me, and surfaced exactly when I started geodon. I've also read about many other people who've reacted similarly to antipsychotics. 

I'm curious about this too...I had side effects that have been very permanent surface that started EXACTLY when I started Geodon that never went away. I swear I have such a love/hate relationship with this drug.



#56 yellowlovesgray

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:54 PM

I am an artist and used to be motivated, happy, and outgoing. Soon after having started antipsychotics I noticed I have lost my creativity and find it difficult to concentrate on anything. Everything became worthless and I have no willpower or motivation to do anything. I wasn't like this at all before I started antipsychotics. I sure had some minor delusions and they are gone now. I don't even think it was the medication that got rid of it too, I felt like I just figured out that the ideas were crazy on my own.

 

The medication took everything from me. I can no longer function and I cannot find joy or pleasure from anything. I have lost my job and just spending my days feeling like dead inside with constant feeling of despair and anxiousness. All I can think about is how much longer do I have to feel like this and fear that it is permanent. I have read many posts from many different people about antipsychotics and found only bad news about it. Many people don't recover after a year of stopping the medication. Many reported permanent side effects of the med years after stopping. 

 

The reason I am so obsessed about getting high off weed is because I use it as my marker for recovery. I figure the day I can get high again would mean that my brain has recovered. So far I haven't noticed ANY improvements after having been off the med for a month now. I am scared to death that my dopamine and serotonin receptors or my mesolimbic pathway are permanently damaged.

 

How can this sort of medication be prescribed like this? They even prescribe it to children. I don't think it's right. This med does more harm than good in my opinion. I understand that it may have helped some people, but I figure the symptoms of the illness has to be really severe to the point that the person cannot function without the med to warrant the use of antipsychotics. I personally think the maker of the drugs have intentionally failed to report all the side effects of the med and just want to get as much profit from it as possible.

 

 

What if I have to live like this forever? I have been seriously contemplating suicide. I don't want to live like this. 

Oh whoa ok I just saw this post.

Everyone's experience is different, but I'm a creative professional too and I had fears about medication making me a different person. What you need to realize is that the mental illness ITSELF might be the cause of what's going on, and not necessarily a side effect or cause of the medication. You said you were having mild dellusions - what might have been happening is that your illness was getting worse as you aged or was somehow onset by some physiological or psychological factor. What you're experiencing right now might be something you'd be feeling ANYWAY had you chosen to take or not take the drug.

It's a big chicken vs. the egg thing to me when I look back on this - my mental issues starting affecting my life when I was about 27, but I'd always had mild symptoms. My life got really out of control after I started seeking treatment.

On one hand, I can look at it as the meds doing more harm than good - but I think what's more likely is that I was getting worse ANYWAY, and the meds really at more times DID do more good than harm. I hope to get back to that place soon.



#57 popalot223

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:12 AM

 

Oooo yeah I can relate to that after I was forcibly introduced to the injectable form of antipsychotic for psychosis. Life was totally different there is this layer of deafeningly dull blah over everything. Like you move through the day just waiting to flop on your unmade bed and what, who cares about taking your clothes off. haha But alas like a famous Ayurvedic boss says all that life gives you is medicine b.c. it is seeded with a life lesson, I like to try and look at like that. But yes.  Little motivation and natural desire; where there used to be zest and drive into many creative endeavors. And it  is quite curious how it affect "higher" intelligence and memory concentration etc(mayhaps due to fluoride and pineal calcification).....But it has now been almost a year and a half for me since I've received my last injection. Yippy! And there are many things I’ve learned since then, you can do that helps, even meds if that’s your bag of tricks.  I mean what a large world with a vast wealth of experiences and exciting experiments to pool from; though most of the alternative lifestyle ones are harder to find. Though these days are rising and being well excepted by the more open minded practitioners. I say that to say don’t get knocked down there’s always hope if we talk and share someone's heard something that'll help you eventually yay planet earth!! I’ll share a few things and if you like what you hear there’s MOUNTAINS more…. First it helps a lot to get someone who believes in you, wow does that help. Second relax relax, relax.  Always look forward. For me I became obsessed with looking back after every precious inch of progress and saying “buuut I was injected not fair yada yada or looking back to look forward in fear” blah! Then with help I started taking every thought captive and spreading the good vibes. Slow and steadily wins the race! Drop the power to all those stressors. As much as you have the free will to drop all the past systems/loops of thoughts that bring ya down and start rebuilding. I mean even thought by thought if you have to. It may be slow at first but don’t let the sharp edge of your expectation be dulled there is hope!!!! Workout those neurons one at a time the scientists are all over how neruplasticity is AMAZING. Also consistent exercise is pivotal it’s a game changer. Releasess feel good dopa-yum, oxygenates the lobes..umm then there is remineralization, increasing brain pleasing fats (coconut oil/omega 3’s) and increasing nutrient dense foods. Again if you can’t then hey no sweat don’t worry it’ll come if it needs to.. But the amount work you put in WILL be rewarded with eqivelant  blessings out, you decide for you. Now comes some good stuff that really shoots you out ahead. As for memory and intelligence and conversation integration (which were the most important for me)  A lil technique Seneca (think ancient Rome/mnemonics) used (and he knew everyone of his soldiers by name. whew!) Is simply when the days over, and do this only in the ease of relaxation, maybe on your bed before you sleep. Think about the all events in your day in reverse order, to the best of your ability. Keep doing this every night at first it may be lil detail or you may be pleasantly surprised BUT soon enough you’ll relize the flow of recall will unfold more and more and you’ll be able to open box after box of calm realizations then the conversations you had will be more enhanced and understood within your memory place. It’s a powerful meditation my friend. Okay that should be enough to get you started but that’s simply the tip of a galaxy of options. Don’t want to overwhelm you or anything. But the TRUTH will set you frree! :) Part of the problem, for me with such powerful life changing influences like the one you went through is it makes it difficult to form new thoughts at the neural synapses level and we are here to create So shazam! Boy I researched this for over a year; hours a day…. Don’t recommend that. Ha but lemme know if you’re interested in nutrition/mind improving expanding herbs/specifics mind or body meditations/exercises/social developments/new frontiers of thinking/musical and tonal endeavors/just talking to yourself in different ways to explore and shed that dull drawl. Also even in this amazing sea of possibility and Light you will still have ups and downs. Remember when you’re hunting elephants don’t let yourself chase the rabbits keep your eyes on your prize. You can do this man, one day even thought by thought at a time. There is so much potential set inside you brother. Peace!

#58 Louis2

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:48 AM

I am an artist and used to be motivated, happy, and outgoing. Soon after having started antipsychotics I noticed I have lost my creativity and find it difficult to concentrate on anything. Everything became worthless and I have no willpower or motivation to do anything. I wasn't like this at all before I started antipsychotics. I sure had some minor delusions and they are gone now. I don't even think it was the medication that got rid of it too, I felt like I just figured out that the ideas were crazy on my own.

 

The medication took everything from me. I can no longer function and I cannot find joy or pleasure from anything. I have lost my job and just spending my days feeling like dead inside with constant feeling of despair and anxiousness. All I can think about is how much longer do I have to feel like this and fear that it is permanent. I have read many posts from many different people about antipsychotics and found only bad news about it. Many people don't recover after a year of stopping the medication. Many reported permanent side effects of the med years after stopping. 

 

The reason I am so obsessed about getting high off weed is because I use it as my marker for recovery. I figure the day I can get high again would mean that my brain has recovered. So far I haven't noticed ANY improvements after having been off the med for a month now. I am scared to death that my dopamine and serotonin receptors or my mesolimbic pathway are permanently damaged.

 

How can this sort of medication be prescribed like this? They even prescribe it to children. I don't think it's right. This med does more harm than good in my opinion. I understand that it may have helped some people, but I figure the symptoms of the illness has to be really severe to the point that the person cannot function without the med to warrant the use of antipsychotics. I personally think the maker of the drugs have intentionally failed to report all the side effects of the med and just want to get as much profit from it as possible.

 

 

What if I have to live like this forever? I have been seriously contemplating suicide. I don't want to live like this. 

 

Hi Narshe81 (and also jjasonn).  We're in a pretty similar boat in terms of experience, and I agree with most of what you're saying.
 
I had a psychotic episode last December, and in January 2013 I was given the normal starting routine for Invega Sustenna - 1 234mg shot (1/7/2013) followed 1 week later by a 156mg shot (1/14/2013).  This was the worst thing that has ever happened to me - bar nothing.  Not the episode!  That was bizarre, to be sure, and I'm worried about my medical condition....  but it's the drug that was so horrifying and destructive.  I was dying to find the same information you're seeking Narshe and jjasonn, earlier this year, and I still am.  All I can report is from my experience in the last 11 months and my research of the drug label and articles I could find online.  I have learned some things.  I never got another shot after 1/14/2013.  That was against the recommendation of my doctor.  We'll see how it turns out.  Taking this torture as a precautionary measure, when it's far far worse than delusions themselves?  That calculus didn't make sense to me.  I hope I'm right.  For one thing, it's absoultely clear that my doctor did not grasp the potency of this drug.
 
Here's the bottom line Narshe: it has been 11 months. I'm still messed up from the drug, but it has improved dramatically over time.  I would say I was devastated through July (6 months out), transitioned from devastated to "heavily impaired" from July to October (9 months out), and since November I've been "impaired" (11 months out).  I'm plenty messed up now, with cognitve issues, sexual function issues, anhedonia etc., but its nothing next to the hell I was in in February.  Each month I can notice significant improvement in my cognitive function, my mood, and emotional sensation ... my sexual interest and testicular function, twitching, weight gain (20 lbs), dizziness upon standing, restlessness, inability to think or focus or engage watching tv, listening to music or playing games; difficulty conversing, feeling pleasure and being generally in perpetual deep boredom, having no motivation at all.  My only experience with feelings as low as suicidal ones, in my entire life, was in January-February.  That has certainly passed.  Some of the effects in that incomplete list went away before others.  And I didn't feel that great or aware about my improvements each months until after about 6 months.  At the very beginning I was urinating every 30 minutes and couldn't move my face.  Most of the list was ongoing after two months.  Anyway, I didn't feel like I was appreciably improved until around September - so that's 8 months later before I personally felt any real hope of recovery.  I hope knowledge of that date helps you. This (11 months) is the first month where I feel I can "pass for normal" to an average person.  They might think I'm tired, but would never think I'm way off/drugged, even if they know me, actually.  I can still tell I'm messed up, of course.  But I can also tell that I've gotten a lot of abilities back.  It's very exciting actually.  I also lost the 20 lbs I gained from the drug through vigorous exercise from July to September. (recommended)  I still have many of the same feelings you have: I'm hoping I'll improve all the way, maybe 90% or something, maybe more.  And I'm very worried about the permanent effects.  I'm personally very focused on the cognitive effects, but I'm also wondering if my tongue will stop twitching when I stick it out and so on.  Thinking was the name of my game, 24/7, and it was just snatched away.  But I can tell you that you won't remain devastated forever; that it at least improves to "impaired".  And in 6 months maybe I'll be able to tell you that you'll improve all the way or almost all the way.  Also, DO NOT be discouraged by people telling you that you're exaggerating, that there is nothing wrong, or that they can't tell (which may be true); that your complaints are actually of the condition and not the drug, etc.  These people have no idea what they're talking about.  I have a supportive and attentive girlfriend, who was able to see many of the subtle things (to an outside observer) of which I complained.  That was very helpful to me. My father on the other hand, thinks this has all been exaggeration and a hypchondriac's prattle.  So I had to deal with that and it's tough.  The drug is devastating for real; don't be BSed out of knowing that.
 
My diagnosis was psychosis NOS (not otherwise specified).  That basically means I didn't get a "real" diagnosis cause they weren't sure what I had / had happened.  My psychosis consisted entirely of paranoid delusions and it lasted about 45 days - I had no hallucinations, no difficulty thinking (delusional belief formation aside), etc - I definitely had paranoid delusions though.  I also separately have depression and high anxiety.  I normally take no medications of any kind and I never do any drugs, including alcohol, with the sole exception that I sometimes smoke tobacco.  I'm a physicist with advanced degrees and I went to/ worked at some of the very top schools in the country.  That's diagnostically relevant, but I'm also hoping to get a cred. boost.  I'm 29 years old.  I still am trying to figure out what my underlying diagnosis is... bipolar perhaps?  I don't think I have schizophrenia, but I'm not certain.  Statistically, it would be a late onset.  I really just don't know, and neither did my doctor(s).  But I was told to continue taking antipsychotics just in case I was schizophrenic and I disregarded that advice.  I recovered "100%" from my psychotic delusions in late January, which I was told is rare.  So far I've had no recurrence of any psychotic symptoms.
 
As far as I could find, there is nothing that can be done to speed the removal of the drug from your body.  I suspect that obesity makes the drug last longer as it gets stored in fat, but that's a bit of a guess.  My intuition says drink a lot of water and exercise if you want to try and speed up the removal.  According to the label for Invega sustenna, enzyme CYP3A4 might be important for eliminating paliperidone.  It says that if you take an inducer of CYP3A4 you may need a higher dose for paliperidone to be effective.  It later claims that this result is contradicted by other studies, so its unclear.  You could try to induce that enzyme. Capsaicin is the only food I found online to induce that enzyme.  I never tried it, and I certainly didn't want to take another drug for this purpose, but I wouldnt mind spicy food.  Kind of an aside I guess, but it might be worth trying.  St. John's wort is a major inducer as well, but its a drug.
 
After the amount of time I've been off the drug (better put - since last injection), I'm not sure anymore if I'm still heavily drugged, or rather if my brain chemistry hasn't normalized (or if there is permanent and irreversible damage). A bit of both I expect (or all three).  But FYI the half life for a 234 mg dose is 49 days.  My dose was essentially 400mg in some sense.  Your dose (naively at least) is 100 mg plus what was left over before that; probably another 200 mg or so. So permanent damage from duration of use aside, we probably quit from similar dose amounts.  Since the half-life decreases with quantity, using 49 days should give you conservative estimates of the amount of palmitate left.  I remember finding 15mg to be the best conservative estimate of my equivalent oral daily dose at injection time.  SO, 2 months later, its about 7.5 mg/day and so on.  I'm not sure how useful or accurate this method is though because it doesn't align with my experience that well.  One thing to keep in mind is that 49 days is a median.  That means for some people they still had 85% after 49 days.  I found something a while back that had actual raw data and the variance was very high.  I personally set my expectation at double the median to be very conservative.  With the time of "brain recovery" though, I mean...  this is pretty much guess-work.  The main thing is the my personal "raw data" - which is that I know how I feel.  And you do get better over time.  I would be interested in getting a blood test to see how much drug is still in me (and how much prolactin), but I never did that.  You could consider that if you were very curious.  Another kind of raw data.
 
Anyway, I've learned a lot about paliperidone from obsessing about it online the past 11 months.  Bipolar patients can expect decreased cognitive funtion, including poor verbal recall, poor working memory, and slow processing speed.  Switching to abilify can reverse hyperprolactinemia, for anyone having sexual issues and wanting to stay on anti-psychotics.  That first tidbit points out that the underlying condition can have a big impact on your experience of paliperidone, since the drug apparently improves thinking for some schizophrenics.  This is already too long and I think it hits what you wanted to know already, so I'll end here. Hope this helps.  You just have to wait it out... for you know, maybe 18 months total?  It's a while.  Good luck.  And as far as permanent effects I'm in your boat completely.  Anyone out there have information about how things look past 11 months?


#59 mellifluous

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:26 AM

Bipolar patients can expect decreased cognitive funtion, including poor verbal recall, poor working memory, and slow processing speed.  Switching to abilify can reverse hyperprolactinemia, for anyone having sexual issues and wanting to stay on anti-psychotics.  That first tidbit points out that the underlying condition can have a big impact on your experience of paliperidone, since the drug apparently improves thinking for some schizophrenics.  This is already too long and I think it hits what you wanted to know already, so I'll end here. Hope this helps.  You just have to wait it out... for you know, maybe 18 months total?  It's a while.  Good luck.  And as far as permanent effects I'm in your boat completely.  Anyone out there have information about how things look past 11 months?

 

 

is there a reason you specified bipolar patients? are other patients shown in studies to respond differently?

 

duh...soz...i just read sentence three and see you mention it for schizophrenia. nevermind. x


Edited by mellifluous, 24 December 2013 - 01:27 AM.


#60 Narshe81

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:26 PM

 

I am an artist and used to be motivated, happy, and outgoing. Soon after having started antipsychotics I noticed I have lost my creativity and find it difficult to concentrate on anything. Everything became worthless and I have no willpower or motivation to do anything. I wasn't like this at all before I started antipsychotics. I sure had some minor delusions and they are gone now. I don't even think it was the medication that got rid of it too, I felt like I just figured out that the ideas were crazy on my own.

 

The medication took everything from me. I can no longer function and I cannot find joy or pleasure from anything. I have lost my job and just spending my days feeling like dead inside with constant feeling of despair and anxiousness. All I can think about is how much longer do I have to feel like this and fear that it is permanent. I have read many posts from many different people about antipsychotics and found only bad news about it. Many people don't recover after a year of stopping the medication. Many reported permanent side effects of the med years after stopping. 

 

The reason I am so obsessed about getting high off weed is because I use it as my marker for recovery. I figure the day I can get high again would mean that my brain has recovered. So far I haven't noticed ANY improvements after having been off the med for a month now. I am scared to death that my dopamine and serotonin receptors or my mesolimbic pathway are permanently damaged.

 

How can this sort of medication be prescribed like this? They even prescribe it to children. I don't think it's right. This med does more harm than good in my opinion. I understand that it may have helped some people, but I figure the symptoms of the illness has to be really severe to the point that the person cannot function without the med to warrant the use of antipsychotics. I personally think the maker of the drugs have intentionally failed to report all the side effects of the med and just want to get as much profit from it as possible.

 

 

What if I have to live like this forever? I have been seriously contemplating suicide. I don't want to live like this. 

 

Hi Narshe81 (and also jjasonn).  We're in a pretty similar boat in terms of experience, and I agree with most of what you're saying.
 
I had a psychotic episode last December, and in January 2013 I was given the normal starting routine for Invega Sustenna - 1 234mg shot (1/7/2013) followed 1 week later by a 156mg shot (1/14/2013).  This was the worst thing that has ever happened to me - bar nothing.  Not the episode!  That was bizarre, to be sure, and I'm worried about my medical condition....  but it's the drug that was so horrifying and destructive.  I was dying to find the same information you're seeking Narshe and jjasonn, earlier this year, and I still am.  All I can report is from my experience in the last 11 months and my research of the drug label and articles I could find online.  I have learned some things.  I never got another shot after 1/14/2013.  That was against the recommendation of my doctor.  We'll see how it turns out.  Taking this torture as a precautionary measure, when it's far far worse than delusions themselves?  That calculus didn't make sense to me.  I hope I'm right.  For one thing, it's absoultely clear that my doctor did not grasp the potency of this drug.
 
Here's the bottom line Narshe: it has been 11 months. I'm still messed up from the drug, but it has improved dramatically over time.  I would say I was devastated through July (6 months out), transitioned from devastated to "heavily impaired" from July to October (9 months out), and since November I've been "impaired" (11 months out).  I'm plenty messed up now, with cognitve issues, sexual function issues, anhedonia etc., but its nothing next to the hell I was in in February.  Each month I can notice significant improvement in my cognitive function, my mood, and emotional sensation ... my sexual interest and testicular function, twitching, weight gain (20 lbs), dizziness upon standing, restlessness, inability to think or focus or engage watching tv, listening to music or playing games; difficulty conversing, feeling pleasure and being generally in perpetual deep boredom, having no motivation at all.  My only experience with feelings as low as suicidal ones, in my entire life, was in January-February.  That has certainly passed.  Some of the effects in that incomplete list went away before others.  And I didn't feel that great or aware about my improvements each months until after about 6 months.  At the very beginning I was urinating every 30 minutes and couldn't move my face.  Most of the list was ongoing after two months.  Anyway, I didn't feel like I was appreciably improved until around September - so that's 8 months later before I personally felt any real hope of recovery.  I hope knowledge of that date helps you. This (11 months) is the first month where I feel I can "pass for normal" to an average person.  They might think I'm tired, but would never think I'm way off/drugged, even if they know me, actually.  I can still tell I'm messed up, of course.  But I can also tell that I've gotten a lot of abilities back.  It's very exciting actually.  I also lost the 20 lbs I gained from the drug through vigorous exercise from July to September. (recommended)  I still have many of the same feelings you have: I'm hoping I'll improve all the way, maybe 90% or something, maybe more.  And I'm very worried about the permanent effects.  I'm personally very focused on the cognitive effects, but I'm also wondering if my tongue will stop twitching when I stick it out and so on.  Thinking was the name of my game, 24/7, and it was just snatched away.  But I can tell you that you won't remain devastated forever; that it at least improves to "impaired".  And in 6 months maybe I'll be able to tell you that you'll improve all the way or almost all the way.  Also, DO NOT be discouraged by people telling you that you're exaggerating, that there is nothing wrong, or that they can't tell (which may be true); that your complaints are actually of the condition and not the drug, etc.  These people have no idea what they're talking about.  I have a supportive and attentive girlfriend, who was able to see many of the subtle things (to an outside observer) of which I complained.  That was very helpful to me. My father on the other hand, thinks this has all been exaggeration and a hypchondriac's prattle.  So I had to deal with that and it's tough.  The drug is devastating for real; don't be BSed out of knowing that.
 
My diagnosis was psychosis NOS (not otherwise specified).  That basically means I didn't get a "real" diagnosis cause they weren't sure what I had / had happened.  My psychosis consisted entirely of paranoid delusions and it lasted about 45 days - I had no hallucinations, no difficulty thinking (delusional belief formation aside), etc - I definitely had paranoid delusions though.  I also separately have depression and high anxiety.  I normally take no medications of any kind and I never do any drugs, including alcohol, with the sole exception that I sometimes smoke tobacco.  I'm a physicist with advanced degrees and I went to/ worked at some of the very top schools in the country.  That's diagnostically relevant, but I'm also hoping to get a cred. boost.  I'm 29 years old.  I still am trying to figure out what my underlying diagnosis is... bipolar perhaps?  I don't think I have schizophrenia, but I'm not certain.  Statistically, it would be a late onset.  I really just don't know, and neither did my doctor(s).  But I was told to continue taking antipsychotics just in case I was schizophrenic and I disregarded that advice.  I recovered "100%" from my psychotic delusions in late January, which I was told is rare.  So far I've had no recurrence of any psychotic symptoms.
 
As far as I could find, there is nothing that can be done to speed the removal of the drug from your body.  I suspect that obesity makes the drug last longer as it gets stored in fat, but that's a bit of a guess.  My intuition says drink a lot of water and exercise if you want to try and speed up the removal.  According to the label for Invega sustenna, enzyme CYP3A4 might be important for eliminating paliperidone.  It says that if you take an inducer of CYP3A4 you may need a higher dose for paliperidone to be effective.  It later claims that this result is contradicted by other studies, so its unclear.  You could try to induce that enzyme. Capsaicin is the only food I found online to induce that enzyme.  I never tried it, and I certainly didn't want to take another drug for this purpose, but I wouldnt mind spicy food.  Kind of an aside I guess, but it might be worth trying.  St. John's wort is a major inducer as well, but its a drug.
 
After the amount of time I've been off the drug (better put - since last injection), I'm not sure anymore if I'm still heavily drugged, or rather if my brain chemistry hasn't normalized (or if there is permanent and irreversible damage). A bit of both I expect (or all three).  But FYI the half life for a 234 mg dose is 49 days.  My dose was essentially 400mg in some sense.  Your dose (naively at least) is 100 mg plus what was left over before that; probably another 200 mg or so. So permanent damage from duration of use aside, we probably quit from similar dose amounts.  Since the half-life decreases with quantity, using 49 days should give you conservative estimates of the amount of palmitate left.  I remember finding 15mg to be the best conservative estimate of my equivalent oral daily dose at injection time.  SO, 2 months later, its about 7.5 mg/day and so on.  I'm not sure how useful or accurate this method is though because it doesn't align with my experience that well.  One thing to keep in mind is that 49 days is a median.  That means for some people they still had 85% after 49 days.  I found something a while back that had actual raw data and the variance was very high.  I personally set my expectation at double the median to be very conservative.  With the time of "brain recovery" though, I mean...  this is pretty much guess-work.  The main thing is the my personal "raw data" - which is that I know how I feel.  And you do get better over time.  I would be interested in getting a blood test to see how much drug is still in me (and how much prolactin), but I never did that.  You could consider that if you were very curious.  Another kind of raw data.
 
Anyway, I've learned a lot about paliperidone from obsessing about it online the past 11 months.  Bipolar patients can expect decreased cognitive funtion, including poor verbal recall, poor working memory, and slow processing speed.  Switching to abilify can reverse hyperprolactinemia, for anyone having sexual issues and wanting to stay on anti-psychotics.  That first tidbit points out that the underlying condition can have a big impact on your experience of paliperidone, since the drug apparently improves thinking for some schizophrenics.  This is already too long and I think it hits what you wanted to know already, so I'll end here. Hope this helps.  You just have to wait it out... for you know, maybe 18 months total?  It's a while.  Good luck.  And as far as permanent effects I'm in your boat completely.  Anyone out there have information about how things look past 11 months?

 

 

Probably the most insightful and informative reply I have had yet. Thank you very much. 

 

It has been almost 4 months now and I have yet to feel any improvement. You only had two starter shots and you still haven't fully recovered from it fully. This is frightening for someone who has been on it for 10 months like myself. 

 

Please, keep us updated with your recovery progress. I am very interested to know if or when you can recover fully from this drug.


Diagnosis: Misdiagnosed for schizophrenia

Medication(s): Invega Sustenna 100mg/month for 10 months, Mirtazapine 30mg/night.

Current symptom(s): Severe anhedonia

 






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