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  1. idiotwife


    Mostly pictures of cats, both permanent residents and fosters, and maybe some other things thrown in too.
  2. I see. Sorry. I'll stop posting here if it bothers people so much. I should've stuck to that the first time I said it. Thank you to the people who have been supportive and I'm sorry for bothering everyone else.
  3. My therapist texted me today to tell me that the pastor contacted my husband and that my husband came in to see her and they’ve decided that I should go in twice a week now. He supposedly didn’t mention divorce to her this time, so that is good. But my husband hasn’t contacted me either, just my counselor. And I won’t ever contact that pastor again. I reached out to him for help, and instead he called the police and my husband and never responded to me at all. I respect the police, but I’m also really scared of them. I know that is stupid with the profession I planned to go into, but there it is. I don’t ever want them called. It just makes me scared and the whole situation worse. I didn’t think he would contact my husband either. I wouldn’t have contacted the pastor if I thought he would. I’m trying to avoid straining my marriage further. And this has probably made things worse, because if my husband was worried about me and really cared right now, he would have contacted me after he found out. Instead I just hear from my counselor. I did something today that helped calm me down, but after last night, I don’t want to say exactly what it is either. I’m still really not doing well at all, but I’m a bit calmer than last night. Not sure if that will last or not. Thank you for being here.
  4. The pastor I emailed for help called the police. I'm going to be a lot more careful about who I reach out to from now on. So I deleted that last post too. If asking for help gets the police called, I won't be doing it like that.
  5. Today has been awful. My husband said not to text him anymore. Apparently passing on information from my counselor and asking about his plans and stuff like that is so “disrespectful” that he can’t talk with me anymore. I don’t know if this is supposed to last for today or forever. I don’t even know what set him off. The other day he removed our marriage from facebook too. But he says it isn’t over. He just doesn’t know what we are anymore and can’t stand seeing my name next to “married” on his page. But he also says he doesn’t see how I can hope to keep him. I don’t know what is going on. My mother has been texting me too, so now I’m also angry. She admitted to a bunch of things and then took them back. She doesn’t care or admit that her lies have impacted my marriage and says it is my fault. I told her to stop texting me but she hasn’t. I told her that if my husband divorces me, I will never be in contact with her again because of her part in all of this. I’m just sick of life right now. I’m so hurt, depressed, anxious, and angry. I just want my husband back and for us to work through this mess together. Please no more telling me he is abusive. I don’t feel like my explanations about that have been listened to. Yes, he is being controlling right now, but that is to be expected under the circumstances. Yes, he has made some mistakes over five years, but so have I, and this marriage is worth saving.
  6. It seems like everyone has made up their minds about my husband and marriage. I can’t see it the way you do right now, I just can’t. If I don’t hold onto hope of working things out then I won’t have anything right now. He has been my life for the last five years. He is my family. I meant my marriage vows. If it ends it will be because he tells me it is over. I love him. But I see that I’m wearing down everyone’s patience and I’m sorry. I’ll stop asking for support and stop posting in this thread. I understand and I was asking too much. I’m sorry.
  7. I just home from work and I can’t stop crying. He texted me tonight. “You are being so aggressive and pushy and I need to see someone before I can keep doing this. I have an appointment for Tuesday.” I don’t get it. We’ve had one fight, after my counselor brought up things to talk about with him. Maybe I went about it wrong. I did push a little, but only because I thought it was important because the counselor brought it up! Mostly I’ve just been texting him pleasant things, reminding him that I love him. He has never asked me to stop. And he won’t tell me anything more like what specifically I’m doing wrong so I can change it! Maybe I’m just a terrible person and it shows in everything I do regardless of if I mean it. I just don’t understand. I miss him so much.
  8. This complete silence from him with no explanation is killing me. I’ve got to go to work later on today and pretend everything is fine, be sickeningly cheery, and just fake it through the day. I felt like this after the affair too, that if I went outside something in the world should be different; it should have ended when mine did, so to speak. Of course that is stupid. The world doesn’t revolve around my marriage. It just seems impossible to go about daily life, interacting with happy people, pretending everything is fine instead of crying, which is what I feel like all the time now. He is alive! That is wonderful! I’m really glad he let me know that. Would it be so hard to give me an explanation for the complete silence though? How long is it supposed to continue? What additional thing have I done to set it off? Does it mean he is filing for divorce? Not that he is going to answer. Just needed to vent. Not doing well.
  9. Ok, I’m now back from work. Still working through responding to replies from last night, but I really will get to everything eventually. Thank you for your patience. Miron: I don’t think signing a consent form so that I can be completely transparent with my husband, not just about some things but everything in order to regain his trust, is messed up. I think it is the right thing to do. But we can agree to disagree on that. I don’t think he has had bad intentions in most of the things he has done. I think right now he is past the point of caring though and just looking out for himself. You are right that he is doing what he wants, making demands, even made me move to work on things, just to threaten divorce once I was here. But he is angry and hurting, like I have said. I really messed up and he does think I’ve lied about a lot more things than I actually have, so I look like an even worse person to him right now. I don’t like what he is doing. But under the circumstances… I’m just going to do my best to be transparent, work on my issues, and try to save the marriage. I’m sorry you had to go through that situation with your relatives. I couldn’t have stayed in that either. But I guess I see the situation with my husband and the situation with your relatives as different. That sounds more like what happened with my relatives than it sounds like what happened with my husband. But I do see your point. I just don’t see it applying to my relationship. There is a point where intentions don’t matter, but there are also times when they do, I think. I’ll try to explain. I guess I just don’t see the relationship with my husband as abusive. If I apply absolutely everything in the Domestic Violence and Abuse article you linked to our relationship, then we are both abusive. Because I rigidly controlled our finances, restricted both of us to an allowance, and made sure we both accounted for every penny we spent because of how little money we had. Technically, according to that article and ignoring my intentions as many people on here have ignored his, that is emotional and financial abuse. In fact I even said no more credit cards, because he went several hundred dollars into debt and I had to pay it off for him early in our relationship. I had a thought today when I was running errands. When someone kills someone else intentionally, we call it murder. But when someone kills someone by accident, even if it is because of extremely poor judgment on his or her part so they are clearly at fault just without motive, we call it manslaughter. Our legal system recognizes the importance of intentions. But here, his behavior is being called abuse, regardless of intentions. It seems like there should be another word for it. I call it making poor decisions and having anger issues, not being abusive. As far as I know there is no single good word for it like there is for manslaughter. But I am thinking about the things you say. They do make sense, but I can’t apply them to him in the same ways you are. I know we all have different lenses that we see things through because of our life experiences, and I don’t know if mine is coloring my view or yours is coloring yours or if they both are. Certainly I will keep everything you say in mind. I will continue to vent here. The support here is what is keeping me going right now. Thank you for your support and advice. I’m very grateful that you are here. Titania: I know you said that there was no need to respond, but I just wanted to in order to say thank you. Thank you for your kindness, advice, and support. Pa_canuck: I know I haven’t made him do anything, but like you said, he wouldn’t be doing this if I hadn’t lied. So these decisions of his are consequences of my actions, regardless of if I made him do them or not. And no, I don’t think he is making the right decisions, I’m just recognizing my part in it and choosing to stay to try to save my marriage. I don’t think I’d be much of a wife if I lied to him and then just left because I didn’t like the consequences. I do agree with what you are saying. Thank you for bringing your perspective here! Sjs: Thank you very much for giving me hope. I will hold that close. I’m not at a point where I can forgive myself yet. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to forgive myself if he can’t ever forgive me and he chooses divorce, honestly. I will continue therapy. I am trying to become more confident and secure, but my confidence and security has always been based in the home before. When things with my husband were fine and I always knew I’d have him to come home to, I generally felt secure and confident. Now I feel lost. I see your point about space. He said when he left that we should stay in contact daily, even if it was just a text message saying good morning or I’m still alive. He also said that we should be there to support each other. He has never asked me to stop contacting him, so I haven’t. I text him daily. Mostly I say good morning, good night, how are you, here is this interesting piece of news, I’m here for you, I love you, here is this update. That sort of thing. But he hasn’t come to me for support at all. He has gotten more distant as time has gone on. And I understand the value of space, but when he takes space, he always comes back more bitter, angrier, and less interested in fixing things, which is why I don’t volunteer space unless he asks. Instead I make sure to tell him I love him every day, even though he rarely says it back. Since our last fight he hasn’t responded much at all. Not long ago I texted him to say I was worried about him, because we haven’t been out of touch that long before, and he finally texted me back to say he is alive. That is the only contact. No explanation. No request for less contact. And I’m worried, because this feels ominous. And I guess just texting already feels like an incredible amount of space to me. We lived together for roughly five years. He isn’t here anymore, I can’t touch him, or hear his voice, and just texting as our only contact is so hard for me to begin with. But you could be right. If he asks for more space, I will give it to him. He hasn’t though. He just disappears. I know what you mean about trust. I’ve never trusted him completely since the affair. I’m sure he’ll never trust me completely after this. But if we work hard, he can trust me in general eventually, and when he has those nagging doubts I can be there to reassure him. I am working on getting healthy. I agree that I owe it to my baby. I hope more than anything that my husband will be here as my husband though. I love him. The thought of life without him is unbearable. Thank you very much for everything. It helps to hear so many perspectives here. I really appreciate all of the support too. Bpladybug: Thank you. You are right, my husband and I have both screwed up our marriage, I’m just the one who caused this current very major issue. I do see a lot of kind and wise advice here and I’m considering it carefully, regardless of if I end up taking it. Thank you very much. Anodyne Oblivion: Thank you. It is nice to hear, but I do still feel like an idiot. Don’t people usually put their wants and desires before others when they feel justified because of hurt and anger? Maybe I am wrong, I am no expert, but that seems like something that a lot of people do. I would guess that it is a survival mechanism when experiencing emotional distress, but I don’t know. You are right that he has poor self control in general. Certainly he is making decisions I am not comfortable with now as well, but I think that has more to do with how much he is hurting than anything else at present. I married him knowing he had cheated in the past. I didn’t give him the opportunity make an informed decision about me though. He wasn’t going to come clean about the cheating, but at least I found out. He didn’t find out about my lies until after we were married. So I guess what I mean is, do you really think I deserve his love either? I am trying to keep myself safe, at least physically. There’s nothing I can do about these extreme emotions right now. I will never knowingly put my child in harm’s way. I want my baby to have a happy life, free from the trauma that I experienced with my mother. I’d like to raise my child in a loving, peaceful home, preferably a two parent home with my husband. I don’t know if that last is possible, because he may just leave me. He might try to take full custody too. I don’t know at this point. I’d fight him tooth and nail if he did though. But I won’t let him abuse our child. Not ever. My child comes first regardless of if I want to stay or leave. That is the only way to be a real parent, in my opinion. If he ever tries to harm our child, that will be the end. Thank you for your kindness and advice. I admire your strength; it shows in your post. I will try to do what is right. I’m convinced that trying to save my marriage and making that marriage a wonderful, loving, and safe environment first is the right thing to do though. If that doesn’t work, if my child is put in danger, if he puts his hands on me like that again, then I will leave and make a better life for my child that way. But I only see that as being the right option if it is really necessary. Miron: Hey, I started and ended this post talking with you! I value your opinions and experiences. Everyone’s advice, including mine when I give it, is colored by our own history. We wouldn’t get so many interesting and helpful perspectives otherwise. Even if your history is spilling into this and maybe doesn’t quite apply to my situation in the same way (though I’m not an expert!) it is still very useful to me. I appreciate your kindness and advice and I am grateful that you’ve kept responding here and supporting me. It means a lot. And I can’t know what the right decision is. Hindsight may be 20/20, but looking forward my sight sure isn’t that good right now. So right now, I work on things, I wait, I pray, I hope. You might be right about everything. There is no telling for sure for a while. I know I choose to believe that my husband is a good man and that there is a chance of making it through this despite what I’ve done, but maybe I’m delusional and making a terrible decision. Only time will tell. Thank you for the warm welcome here and for all of your support and kindness. I’m very thankful that I found this place.
  10. Ok, I have finished running my errands and have a little bit of time before I need to get ready for work, so I will respond to as much as I can and get to the rest tonight. Scatty: It bothers me a lot that my husband isn’t acting interested in the baby anymore. I don’t think that makes him a bad man, just not a good father or a supportive partner right now. That said, there are reasons he is acting this way. He is very hurt, angry, and distrustful. Celebrating new life or taking responsibility for it probably aren’t the first things on his mind, as nice as it would be if they were. Right now he is questioning everything and being fed nonsense by his mother, who has a bachelors degree in psychology and thinks she is qualified to diagnose me and tell him how to go about leaving or staying with me. But back before this happened, he did miss work to come to several appointments, just not all of them. He started reading the books I got him. He never seemed really excited to me, but he said he was. I think he got pretty fed up because during the first trimester I had severe all day morning sickness every day and because of the ER visits I was put on pelvic rest and spent most days in bed feeling very sick. Suddenly he was responsible for everything in the house and he never had been before. He has never lived alone except in a dorm room, so cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, cat care (we were running a shelter out of our basement and had as many as thirteen cats in the house because of it) were not his specialties and it was really hard on him. The house fell to pieces, in a manner of speaking. It didn’t get cleaned, the cats ran wild, and now there is so much damage that we will probably be paying it off for years. I kept a respectable house before that. It was never spotless, but half an hour to an hour of cleaning depending on the day and my energy could always make it ready for company. He couldn’t keep up, even when he wasn’t working. And so he got mad at me probably because of all of the stress it caused and probably mad at the baby too, though I don’t know. He never was the type to read to my stomach or do that sort of thing anyhow. He has never talked to the baby. I do, but I also have tried to explain politics to cats and read poetry to my potted plants, so I’m just weird that way anyhow. On a side not, the cats are all fine. The ones from the shelter all moved to the new state, they are boarding with a vet that I used to know pretty well, they are completely vetted and happy, and the vet and I are finding homes for them. These were foster cats, not personal pets being abandoned. I have three cats. They are currently boarding too because of a transportation issue. I should have them this weekend. Funny you should mention that others told your husband that it wasn’t his child even though it was. It isn’t fun. Something similar happened here. A friend planted the idea in my husband’s mind and I think his parents reinforced it, though I’m not sure about that. But after he found out about everything, he asked if I was having an affair and if it was his child. I have never cheated. It is his child. I told him so, and that is the only thing I’ve said that he honestly seems to believe. Yes, it is correct that my relatives lie to him as well. They have told him that I’m insane, that my mother was never suicidal or self harmed, that I never lived on the streets for any length of time, and that they have been a supportive part of my life since day one and that I am completely delusional. They’ve also exaggerated a few conversations that did take place and made it look like I was saying hurtful things behind his back. And that is just the stuff I know of, there is probably more, because I’m not privy to much of what is said between them. I guess I’m old fashioned too. I don’t think it is right for him to be living somewhere else and not being here while I’m pregnant or contributing financially while we are married. But under the current circumstances I’m not going to pick a fight with him about it, because any discussion about it, no matter how I approach it, will turn into a fight at this point. He still won’t talk to me. There has been complete silence from him since our last fight, even though I’ve apologized and only texted him pleasant things since. There is a part of me that is afraid that his asking me to move here wasn’t really to work on things but was because he planned to file for divorce here and keep me nearby for the next eighteen years. It isn’t the part of me that I’m letting take control of my mind, but I can’t deny that the fear is there and has been since he first mentioned this arrangement. But I’m treating it like it is only a fear for now, because soon it has to be obvious one way or the other. I won’t ignore it if he refuses to talk about anything, still isn’t in counseling, moved in, or willing to try marriage counseling after another month. I’m not going to give him a verbal deadline, no. But even though I’ve made some really stupid decisions, I still have enough brain cells to see the obvious if this continues for too long. If it does, I will take measures to protect myself in the event of a divorce. I’m praying that isn’t necessary, and that the fear is only a fear. I will talk about important things in counseling, even though he has access to them. If he wants a divorce, then I will cancel those consent forms. But for the time being the best thing I can be doing for my marriage is being completely transparent with him, so he can see I’m not lying now, and see that who I am has never really changed from the me he knew. Just about anything can be used against me. That goes both ways though, and with everything I’ve written here, I’m sure you see that there are just as many serious things I could say about him as he could say about me, and divorce would be extremely messy. You asked about my husband’s age. He is 25, though in a couple months he’ll be 26, and I am 21. I haven’t seen an OBGYN since the move. I haven’t found one yet, but I am looking. I plan to ask about medications. At very least, I need something to knock me out at night. I don’t know what meds are out there or what would be helpful other than that, but I am sure that will come up with my counselor and if meds are a good idea then I will discuss it with the OB to make sure it is safe for the baby. The baby sure kicks and turns over a lot, so I’m not worried about there being any kind of emergency even though I was due for an appointment at the end of October. My support is here and through my counselor. His family is who I consider to be my family, and of course they are siding with him. My relatives are a completely different matter. I haven’t been close to them in years. They aren’t people I want in my life. I wouldn’t trust their support if they gave it. My mother has an agenda and she is lying to my husband, and I don’t even know if she knows which side she is on. And now I have to get ready for work. Miron, Titania, Pa_canuck, Sjs, Bpladybug, and Anodyne Oblivion—I will respond to all of you when I get home, but that won’t be until late tonight at least in my time zone. Thank you everyone for your support. I really appreciate it. I’m sorry I’m having such a hard time keeping up. It is a busy day and I’m mourning today, because I lost someone I love very much a year ago today.
  11. I’m sorry, but I’m going to wait to respond to both of your posts until tomorrow. Thank you very much for responding and I will write back tomorrow, though it may not be until I get back from work. I have read your posts. I need to think about them more. I also reread what I wrote and realized how bad my grammar is getting because of how tired I am. I think between current stress with my husband, not being used to sleeping alone after five years, and the sleep problems I have from PTSD, sleep or much of it isn’t likely. I haven’t been able to sleep much at all lately. But even so, I’m tired to the point that it is effecting my ability to communicate in writing, so I’m at least going to go rest whether sleep comes or not. Thank you both very much. I promise, unless something drastic happens to keep me from it, I will respond to your posts from tonight tomorrow when I get the chance. Thank you again, and I hope you both are having a good night or day depending on the part of the globe where you live.
  12. Miron: I don’t think I have answers for all of your questions, but I will do my best to address them in order regardless. Your questions are in bold and my responses are below so I can keep everything straight. “How come a lie about your age and parental contact leaves your relationship in shambles, but physical abuse, screaming at you, cheating, and collaborating with your parents have not? Why are his noble intentions so important, and your intentions so easily brushed aside and ignored?” The things I have done have left my marriage in shambles. The things he has done have damaged our marriage as well. I think I said before that I did call divorce lawyer after the ER visits when the fighting continued and there were other problems. I left the house after he called the police for about a week I think, and then I called him and told him I wanted to work things out. He said he had already moved out and told the property management that I forged his name on the lease so he could get out of it, because he thought I’d never want him back (this is part of the financial debt we left behind in the previous state.) By the way, that was mostly a lie on his part. He wanted to renew the lease and I didn’t, because the apartment was falling apart and I didn’t want to expose the baby to mold. But we did renew it, because we had trouble finding another place, and the lease renewal was due while he was at work, so I got permission from him to sign it for him… not exactly criminal forgery. Anyhow, now we have to break two leases, well now one is just in my name, for a place across the country that is in terrible repair and is going to cost us a ton of money. But that is an entirely different issue and I got sidetracked. What I was saying before is that I took the things he did very seriously. I took measures to protect myself and my unborn child, regardless of if his intentions were good or bad, when I felt it was necessary. We did reconcile, he was going to go on a trip for a week and then move back in, but he actually called my relatives and when he did leave it was after I was confronted, and he took a trip across the U.S. stopping to see friends, and I actually beat him to the state we have moved to. The cheating hasn’t been ignored. He went to individual counseling to address for a couple of months after I found out. We also went to marriage counseling together during that time. I am working on forgiving him. Forgiveness is something that I see as extremely important, but that I have always struggled with. It still hurts, the words of their messages to each other still go through my mind, I still see and hear them in the shower together (I caught them during his first affair,) so it just isn’t something I’m over. But I am actively working on it still. It isn’t something I’m ignoring, I’m just not calling him out on things when the current situation has been caused by me, because I don’t see how that would help us. Collaborating with my parents, as much as I dislike it, I do actually completely understand. Well, I don’t understand why he called them initially, because I haven’t gotten an answer from him about it really. I don’t know if he called them because of suspicion or if his parents had already told him that they hired a private investigator to dig into my past before we were married. Either way, he felt the need to call them, and once he talked with them he realized I had been in contact with them and received money. Then he did what probably a lot of people would do and stayed in contact to try to get the story straight. What I do think is wrong, is asking them to fly out to confront me and telling them that if they called me and told me that they were in contact that I’d kill myself. Supposedly, I found out recently, that is why I didn’t find out they were coming until they called and showed up on my porch five minutes later. I was not suicidal then. I hadn’t been. There was no reason to think I would be under those circumstances, but this seems to be a repeat theme with us. Now of course my parents are lying to him and either intentionally or unintentionally sabotaging what is left of my marriage. That is a different mess. As for his intentions, I place value on intentions. Maybe he will when he is less hurt and angry. I don’t know. I do know that I never had bad intentions towards him in the stupid decisions that I made. I saw getting money from my parents as providing for him and keeping a roof over our heads when we couldn’t find work. I lied at the very beginning of our relationship and didn’t know how to get out of it, I wasn’t lying because I wanted to hurt him. I’m just stupid, or at least I sure was then. I hope he will realize in time that I never had bad intentions towards him. I can’t say honestly that I never had bad intentions towards anyone when I was lying, but never towards him. It was using my parents to take money from them. I felt guilty about it, but I didn’t stop. “Marriage has personal meaning, government benefits, and legal recognition. But, it is not the "real" start of a relationship. It is a relatively simple legal procedure. Somehow, I am reading you as implying that because his affairs, with the same woman, were before you were married, this is different than if you had been? Many of us here are not reading that line between married and not-married that you seem to be drawing, we are referring to your relationship as a whole. One does not suddenly change because of a wedding ceremony.” I see your point. I personally have a similar view on marriage. I don’t see it as a start of a relationship, but the turning point where it becomes a life commitment and a vow before God as well. Not a whole changed in our lives with marriage. I think in a good relationship, when committed, not a whole lot does change really. At least not after the length of time we had already been together. It changed car insurance, my last name, and our finances legally. The big change is that we decided we would try to conceive after marriage. I’m a little torn on the affairs. I do take marriage vows very seriously and so if the affairs had happened after marriage I might have treated it differently. I did want to make sure that I wasn’t accidently misleading people and wanted to clarify that the affairs happened before marriage, because to some people that does make a big difference. The pain and betrayal doesn’t change in a committed relationship vs marriage. Though actually, being married might add another layer of betrayal because of those vows, though I don’t know, and I can’t even imagine it being more painful than it was. “This worries me. I view cheating as far worse. And his abuse. Did you get tested for STIs after you found out? Physical cheating puts you at serious physical risk.” I guess I view the situations as similar. I’ve never had an affair. I know that there is a self-esteem boost and excitement that is supposed to come with it, but I’ve never wanted to hurt someone like that. But in many ways having an affair and the extensive lying that I did are similar. No, I didn’t get the self-esteem boost or excitement. But both a very serious betrayals of trust, just one was physical and one wasn’t. And I’ve never been lied to in that sort of extreme way in a committed relationship. I don’t know what it feels like to be on the other side of that, but when I see what he is going through now, I imagine that it is similar. That is one reason I don’t want to say one is worse than the other right now. I honestly can’t say, not having experienced both. I don’t even know if they are really comparable. I just know that we have both seriously hurt each other with our choices. Yes, I have been tested for STIs several times, because the doctor says that some don’t show up initially. None showed up immediately after I found out. When I was tested for things after I was pregnant and having those complications, the doctor said that I might have HPV, but that false positives are fairly common and I should check back in a year. My husband was also tested for STIs after I found out about the affair. I made him go. We both knew he had been exposed to HPV specifically, but his doctor said it would be much simpler to test me for it than it would be to test him, so they didn’t test him. We haven’t talked about it yet. We won’t under the current circumstances. “And he owes you all of the above, all of it. But his actions are not matching up. He needs to take responsibility to get help. He needs to admit that he can be wrong despite good intentions, and good intentions won't save him. He owes you understanding for why you have done what you did, and he owes you and your relationship some serious commitment to getting himself help right now. But he isn't.” I know he does. He just isn’t in a place where he can see that right now. I really hope he does see it soon. There isn’t anything I can do about that. “How long are you willing to wait? Until he hits you or holds you down again? Hurts your child? Because, without professional help, hun, it's extremely likely to.” I don’t have an answer to that. If either of those things happened, of course I would leave. Right now I don’t even know if he will give me another chance and stay married though. I can’t even discuss those things with him right now. Certainly, if we repair our marriage and it is appropriate to talk about that again, there will be a conversation. But it can’t be now. It would do more damage than good, if he was even willing to listen at all, which I doubt. “Do you do this to him? Did you? Even if you did, that's no reason for him to do it back. I believe he knows exactly how important marriage is to you, being married, staying married, and he is using that as a very effective tool. He is putting all of the focus right onto how horrible your actions are and how crazy and stupid he says you are, and he is getting to have 100% control over you because of it.” Did I do this to him when? After the affair? I can’t ever think of a time that he wanted to talk about something serious and I refused. Even though I’m not great at communication, I don’t avoid the issues he thinks are important enough to bring up. I have argued with him about them, but I’ve never refused to listen at all or to have a discussion to the best of my knowledge. I am the one who tends to push the serious discussions in our relationship. I have brought up a lot of things over the years for us to discuss. He has sometimes, but I think I usually beat him to it so he doesn’t get the chance. Right now I’m really trying not to push at all. I have a couple of time over the course of this month, but I am trying to just give him his space since pushing things doesn’t help. That is actually why he is currently refusing to talk to me. I asked him if we could talk about something that came up in therapy yesterday and when he said no I pushed too much. “My abusers always, always drilled it in to me that I was equally culpable for my abuse. That I played an equal role. But, and this has taken many years to really believe it, they are 100% responsible for their actions. I was not perfect, I did a lot of things wrong. But none of them made the abuse okay. Again, I am very certain that he is using the importance you place on being married, against you. Because the more you describe, the more you sound like my sister in one of her relationships.” Yeah, my ex did that at times. I do also separate consequences and punishment. Sometimes punishment is a consequence like in our legal system, but I don’t think it should be in relationships. Sometimes it happens out of hurt and anger unintentionally. Sometimes it happens intentionally in abuse. I don’t think any of the incidents that I’ve described and people here called abuse were intentional in that way. I don’t think my husband has tried to punish me, except during this separation. And he feels justified because of how much he is hurting and because I seem like a very bad person. I understand that too, because I did punish him with my behavior after I found out about the affair, and I didn’t even realize it until our marriage counselor pointed it out. Then I was aware of it and caught myself and stopped. But we aren’t talking to a marriage counselor right now. I think he sees what he is currently doing as just protecting himself and showing me consequences. I can’t hold his current actions against him right now, they just hurt. I don’t think he actually realizes the importance I place on marriage anymore. All that flew out the window for him when I called a divorce lawyer that time. Now whenever I bring up that I’m afraid he is going to divorce me, he calls me a hypocrite and says it shouldn’t matter because I was ready to leave him. So I don’t think he is intentionally using that against me. I don’t think he realizes that I’m genuinely scared and don’t want a divorce at all. But I can’t read his mind. This is my impression from what he has said when we’ve fought about it as recently as yesterday by text. “Does he feel like an idiot for what he has done? Does he show how badly he feels through admitting his responsibility without excuses, and seeking help for his serious issues, as you are? How have you completely screwed up the relationship? How has he not had a big part of this? You admit he has done things, and they were bad, but the vast majority of your emphasis is on your fault, your lies, yourself. Where is his part?” After we started marriage counseling after his affair, he sure said he felt like an idiot for what he did. He once said, though he has taken it back since, that he felt like an idiot because of the first time he held me down. In the past, he has admitted responsibility for the affair, at time with and without excuses. He got help then because I asked him to. Currently and with current issues? No. That may change. I don’t know yet. Right now I’m just trying to fix what I’ve done and save our marriage. Well, I’ve completely screwed up the relationship by lying for years. And I don’t mean that everything that has ever gone wrong in our relationship is my fault, just that I am responsible for this huge mess that exists now. Clearly we have both caused serious problems. But right now the serious problem I have caused is what we have to deal with and (hopefully) try to recover from together. “This is precisely what I am saying. All your posts on this follow this theme.” I don’t quite follow what you mean here. In all of my posts, I try to show my remorse and take responsibility for my actions. I’m not denying that he has done hurtful things too. I’m just saying I am responsible for the current situation. “I didn't think of myself as a child at that age. This is common. I was wise for my years, according to others. But I was a child. I am still quite young.” I’m starting to realize how common it is. Thank you for pointing this out. It is helpful and I wasn’t thinking about it like this before. I’ve felt like an adult for a long time whether I have been or not, and that does change the way I look at things and the way I did then, because that was my view of myself. I am still young too. I feel a lot older than I am. Plucking out the occasional grey hair isn’t helping. But at 21 I feel more like 30, though clearly I don’t have enough wisdom to be. It just feels like I’ve seen more at my age than most other people I have met that are my age, if that makes sense. I don’t know if it is accurate, but that is often how I feel about it and how I felt about it then. But clearly I make the same stupid mistakes, or worse ones, than many young people. “Because he has isolated you. You may have previously lived where you are now, but if family is out (and my abusers are family I have not seen in eight years, by my choice, so I get this,) and you do not know anyone safe in the area, you are isolated. And, seriously, when I was treating my mother like shit (she was never abusive) as a teen, lying, stealing, screaming at her, doing whatever I wanted, and I was finally kicked out, I was always allowed back for holidays. My stepbrother is pulling similar shit now, and the same offer applies. They know you have no-one to see for thanksgiving besides them and they are excluding you anyway. That IS cruel.” Yes and no. I don’t think he is trying to isolate me, he just doesn’t want to be around me and neither do his relatives, who I have long considered family. I have isolated myself from my own friends. They aren’t local anyhow. I’m just too ashamed to talk with them because in keeping up these lies that I told my husband I have also lied to them. I need to tell them the truth. I’m not going to keep lying to them until I’m ready to tell them the truth, so I’ve chosen distance until I feel I can emotionally handle it, because most will just leave forever. And I don’t know people in this city apart from my husband and his family. The friends I have that I’ve distanced myself from aren’t here, and they have their own families to spend the holiday with anymore. I wouldn’t be welcome, certainly not without flying across the country again which I just can’t afford financially right now. As for my relatives, who I don’t consider to be my family, it is possible that they would extend an invitation for Thanksgiving dinner, or specifically, my mother might. She has sometimes, but I haven’t gone any time in the last five years and even before. This is what it would look like if I went: my mother would awkwardly make small talk. My father wouldn’t say a word and would glare across the table or refuse to meet my eyes at all. My sister and her husband, who would normally attend, would refuse to if I was present. That sounds wonderfully cheery, doesn’t it. I can’t sit at the table with people who are currently lying to my husband knowing that they are damaging my already damaged marriage and making it less and less likely that it is repairable. And you know what my husband would say if I outright asked him to please let me come to Thanksgiving? I’m sure it would be, “Go spend it with your family.” Because he no longer cares that I don’t see them as family, and that his family is and has been my family for a long time. “If he was seriously interested in and committed to being a father, regardless of how he feels about you he would be already involved with the baby. Babies are interactive, as you know, even during pregnancy. I have seen many fathers with their babies even before birth, some no longer in relationships with the other parent, and it is all very very similar.” I don’t think he is that interested in being a father anymore. He used to say he was. I got him books, and he read parts of them. He came to all but one or was it two of the appointments. But right now he doesn’t want anything to do with it. If I bring up the baby he says “I’m just a sperm donor. Your words.” And I did say that once in anger in a bad fight that got out of hand, and apologized, and tried to clarify, but some things can’t be unheard. Not that it probably matters, but I’ll say it anyhow. My view has always been and he has known this long before we were married, that blood doesn’t make a parent, presence and care does. So him being biologically the father doesn’t give him rights to the child in my eyes, though obviously he has them legally. If he is there and shows an interest in the baby throughout the pregnancy and makes an effort to act like a father, than of course he has rights. In anger, I was accusing him of not being there in any of the ways that would make him father. It was a terrible thing to say and I regret it. Even if it becomes true, I shouldn’t have ever said it like that. This was before he found out about the lies that I said this, in one of those really nasty arguments that started after I became pregnant. Like I said, I can be extremely hurtful in a temper too. Apologies can’t fix everything. “Yet, he is dictating how you need to go about healing and what is best for you both? Did he do what is best for you, singular, and you both, after hurting you? After almost making you miscarry, twice? After cheating on you, twice? Stopping the physical abuse and, supposedly, the cheating are NOT "what is best," they should have never ever happened in the first place. They are a sign that something is seriously wrong on HIS end. No one should be commended for not physically abusing someone, that is the standard. Most assuredly, around CB, the answer to which way is better is going to be all about the tdocs, support groups, and professional help.” Just because he isn’t handling something appropriately doesn’t mean I get to do that as well. It would make things worse if I did. I think he has every right to insist on individual counseling for me. I also think he has every right to insist on marriage counseling, and I really wish he would. I think he should be setting appropriate guidelines for going about this, but certainly not the extreme things he is doing. Family counseling isn’t going to help anyone. To meet his conditions, I will have to fake my way through it, because I can’t force myself to love people who continue to hurt me and my marriage, no one can. He knows that too or at least I’ve tried to talk with him about it. But he sees it as a fake it ‘til I make it situation and doesn’t see what my relatives have done at all. No, he isn’t doing what is best for me or best for us both. He is doing what he thinks is best for him. I know what I think is best for me and for us both and for him too, but what I think about it doesn’t matter to him right now. We should be living together and getting counseling, but he isn’t willing at this point. I hope he will be soon. I can’t say. He didn’t do what was best for me after hurting me. He thought or at least thinks now that by holding me down he was doing what was best for me. He didn’t do what was best after nearly causing the miscarriages, but he did at least stay with me in the hospital for both overnight visits. He said he’d never lose control like that again after the first time, but then he did. I don’t think he meant to, but that is part of losing control. It took two of us to start the fight, but only one of us to keep yelling when I begged him to stop. I’m not completely innocent, but it should have stopped when I kept begging. Of course, none of these bad things, the things he has done or the things I have done were “what is best.” None of them should have happened. But they have. Neither of us can change that now. We could be doing a better job of handling the current situation now, but that takes his cooperation. Ok, I think I responded to everything there, though I don’t really have good answers. I hope I was able to explain some though. I do see what you are saying here. Honestly I’m going to have to give it quite a bit more thought. This is giving me a different perspective. It doesn’t change that I am responsible for the current situation, but I do think it isn’t being handled correctly by him, and I do see that we have both been at fault for many of the problems in our relationship, and that a lot of his behavior has been inappropriate. That doesn’t change that I’m committed to working on fixing our marriage now. It does make think about long-term things we will need to address if we get past this. Right now I’ve got to focus on working hard to keep us together. I’m going to have to put up with the way he is handling things now, even if it isn’t the best, and that is a consequence of my actions. I don’t think I’d be a very good wife if I abandoned him because of the way he is acting because of something I did that hurt him. I need to pray and be patient and make an effort and outlast this so that we can address all of the problems eventually and have a happy and healthy marriage. Thank you very much for all of your advice, kindness, and support. The hard truths are important too and I do appreciate them. I really appreciate you responding to my post and being here. Thank you. Now, Scatty, I’m about to get to your response as well, but I’m going to write it separately from this one because this one seems to have become novel length already. Maybe that’s an exaggeration, but it reads as eight pages on my word processor… And it looks like since I’ve written this, you have responded again, Miron! Thank you! I’m about to go read what you’ve written, and then I will response to that too of course.
  13. Scatty: I’m really not sure what to say to all that, except thank you for your advice and for responding to my post. I don’t see what you see at all, but what you say does make sense if you are right about it. Maybe at this point I should mention this site and my post to my counselor and see what she thinks about the advice given here, because I am really at a loss. It does get my attention that most of the people who have responded here are saying similar things about the situation. But I still know what I did was very wrong, that I caused this particular situation, and I can’t think about my husband in the same way people here seem to. I can’t see my counselor until Tuesday. I am going to keep coming here for support before then, because it is helping me get through the day. But maybe I really should show her all of this or at least bring it up. I’m not sure. Thank you.
  14. I haven’t ever said here that it is worse than cheating. I said that I don’t agree or disagree with my husband’s view that it is and that I’m trying not to compare them in a better/worse sort of way. I do think we should be handling the situation similarly to how we handled that one, but that isn’t the same thing. Right now, in his pain and anger, he views what I’ve done as much worse. He also thinks that I’ve lied about a lot more than I have. He thinks that because his affairs lasted for months rather than years, my lying is worse because it went on for years. It doesn’t matter to him that he was never going to tell me unless I found out. The whole situation is messed up. I’m very much at fault for lying. And there is no convincing him that what I did doesn’t make everything I’ve ever said to him a lie. There is no convincing him that he knows who I am. It is like all of the time we spent together in five years didn’t happen or he doesn’t remember it in the same way now. And I do get that to some extent, because his affairs sure changed how I looked at things. The good times that happened while he was cheating felt like they were fake after I found out. So I can see how he would view parts of our relationship in the same way because of lying. People don’t think clearly when they hurt as much as he is. I sure didn’t after his affair. Of course his affair isn’t going to seem as bad to him as what I did, because he didn’t have his life turned upside down like mine was after I found out, just like even though I hurt so much right now I’m not experiencing the same pain he is now because of my lies. I really don’t know what to do about any of this when he won’t talk with me and when he hurts too much to see things clearly. I’m also worried that when he does see a therapist, he is just going to talk about how I’m an awful person, never mention the affairs, or any of the good times we have shared. Then what would a therapist recommend? Probably to run away and never look back or to take my child away from me. I don’t know. I really wish he would talk with his old therapist who is familiar with our history, the good and the bad. But that therapist is in a different city, though thankfully the same state. They could Skype. I know that therapist is willing. But my husband doesn’t seem interested in seeing him, possibly because Skype isn’t the same as in person, or maybe because he does know so much already, or maybe because he might still owe the therapist money. I’m not really sure. I haven’t heard from my husband since before six last night, despite sending him text messages and leaving him a voicemail. I tried to share the news about work with him and let him know that I got him a gift, asked to see him for a little bit like a coffee date or something, but there has only been silence. He lives on his phone, so I’m sure he is ignoring me, which isn’t helping. Tomorrow is going to be a hard day too. I start work tomorrow. Tomorrow is also the day someone very close to me died a year ago and anniversaries of things like that really stick in my mind and make things hard. I really wish my husband were here to hold. But that is life. This is a consequence of my actions. Thank you for your kindness and advice.
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