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I'm doing OK I think. Mature student doing a degree in psychology and my grades are good, and my teachers and the students I work with seem to like me. And some people here seem to like me for some reason. That should make me feel better. It doesn't really because I still think so negatively about myself. We were looking at attachment theories a while back. Harlow's monkeys and that sort of thing. Without a loving upbringing the monkeys didn't know how to relate to their fellow monkeys and were just scared of them. I wonder if I'm too broken to have a relationship. I don't mean to over-dramatise my childhood. It was crap, but others have been through worse. Just somehow taught me to never trust anyone, because they'll only hurt you in the end. I like them and they like me. But if they really fucking knew me they'd see what? How pathetic and worried and scared I am? Not very manly but manly can fuck off. It does come back to thinking everyone hates me, because in some ways it's easier than thinking that people like me. Why would they? We were looking at childhood attachment a while back, and how important it is in forming a template for future relationships. My mother was rubbish. Taught me all the wrong things. Probably a narcissist. Nobody is ever going to love me and I'm incapable of love anyway. Bit dramatic but I am going to die alone.

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[Drums fingers on table]

Was this buy-one-get-one-free day at the rubbish tip? Because you hauled in a great big steaming pile there.

Look, you. MI isn't subtle. It treads around your head with its boots on and leaves tracks all over the carpet. It's not at all hard to detect when disordered thinking is at play because it waves itself around like a flag. You can't possibly miss it - if you look up from staring at the ground/your feet/the bottom of the Abyss.

Let us observe the flags.

4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

I wonder if I'm too broken

Flag. People are not made of Waterford crystal. People are amazingly resilient and adaptable, and they heal from all manner of misfortune and adversity; indeed, were it not for this ability, no one would experience transcendent personal growth. In making this statement, the disordered mind is responding to a false self-assessment that assumes an inability to respond and adapt, or even cope, but that ability is inherent to the human condition. Therefore, such a though is obviously disordered. (One might also point out that, regardless of what one may think of Harlow and his theories, you are not a monkey, and cross-primate analogues can only be applied so far. That said, I distinctly remember a visit to a zoo once in which I observed a man watching a gorilla, and noted that they both picked their noses at the same time.)

4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

How pathetic [...] I am?

Flag. Pathetic could be interpreted a couple of ways: It could mean the quality of arousing pity in others because they see you as vulnerable or compromised; or it could mean miserably inadequate. In either case, the disordered mind makes the error of assuming that what is going on in the heads of other people is the same thing that is going on in its own. You cannot know how other see you unless they signal it through action or direct speech, and as you explain, the signals you are receiving are not consistent with this assumption. An assessment of miserably inadequate fails on two grounds - first, the disordered mind assumes that it automatically knows what another mind considers miserably inadequate, and second, it assumes that the other mind is thinking precisely that. But it can actually know neither thing. Therefore assigning the label 'pathetic' to the self immediately fails the test.

4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Nobody is ever going to love me and I'm incapable of love anyway.

Flags! And the rubbish is starting to nif. The big ol' red flag here is the choice of absolutist terminology. "Nobody is ever" is a form of "never", and any time the disordered mind tosses off one of the absolutist terms like never, always, every, none, nobody, everyone, and so forth, not only are there flags, but trumpets sound nearby telling you that the statement is almost certainly wrong. Absolute statements require extremely high standards of proof, and one can generally count on there being an exception that disproves, and thus undermines, the statement. Nobody is ever going to love you? Fine, but what happens when you run into the person who falls in love with you tomorrow? That'll be egg on your face, won't it? What's that you say? Not going to happen? How much are you willing to wager? And what's this "I'm incapable of love" business? If you were incapable of love, the concern that another person might not ever love you would not occur to you. It is the need and desire to love that begets the need to be loved in return. The disordered mind turns this on its head and interprets the absence of returned love as an absence of desire to love; this sort of inverted thought process becomes a very evident flag if you're observant.

4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Bit dramatic but I am going to die alone

Flag. You are not (as far as you have indicated through your body of posts to date) a brilliant and gifted clairvoyant. Therefore, your statement may essentially be taken as something you have pulled out of your ass. You may be saying that, if all factors of your life continue as they are at the present moment and do not change, the statistical probability that the state of isolation you currently occupy is therefore the state in which you will ultimately expire is relatively high. But we live in a quantum universe in which change is a constant, whether we like it or not, and the chances of your status quo remaining quo are not likely. Moreover, if you actively take steps to change things in a positive way - which indeed you are doing by going to college, interacting with others - you make that likelihood even less. Therefore, any prognostication you might make on the basis of disordered gloom you suffer as a baseline is worth less as a predictor than a simple coin toss because you're actually tipping the odds against it.

Here's the thing about cognitive defense against MI - the key is to spot the flags. Once you can spot the flags, you can sequester disordered thoughts and set them aside for analysis. The important step is getting to the point that you're able to shunt the thoughts aside as they arrive, rather than let them process through as though they're actual thoughts. You see a thought like "I'm incapable of love", you've learned to recognize its flag, so you think, 'flag that,' and make an alternative space for it in your mind to shunt it off to. Don't process the thought at that point. Go back to it as though it were an object, and try to take it apart to understand why you thought it. Or don't - if you can let yourself shunt it off into oblivion, so much the better. That's the ultimate goal.

 

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9 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Harlow's monkeys and that sort of thing.

Do I need to pick through your fur and pull out the twigs and leaves and eat those little bugs again? Only they’re better with salt, and there’s nothing in the cupboard but garlic powder. But I know you’ll feel better once your coat is all fluffy again, so I’ll take my protein where I can find it.* Everybody wins!
 


 

I found this fascinating. I need to get out more. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23039342/

 

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10 hours ago, Cerberus said:

Look, you. MI isn't subtle. It treads around your head with its boots on and leaves tracks all over the carpet. It's not at all hard to detect when disordered thinking is at play because it waves itself around like a flag. You can't possibly miss it - if you look up from staring at the ground/your feet/the bottom of the Abyss.

I get that. I've slowly been proving myself wrong in my negative bullshit over the past few years, but it's always been a struggle. That was a load of rubbish that I wrote, but I do unfortunately still believe it a lot of the time. "Everyone hates me" like a parrot on my shoulder saying the same shit over and over again. No they don't, and I don't know how much evidence I need to disprove that. Who hates me? Well probably some of the people I've replied to on YouTube but I don't give a fuck about their opinions. It's stupid really, though I shouldn't use that word because just kicking myself again. Where's the evidence that people hate me? I'm working on a group project for my course and people respect my opinion and went with my idea for a research proposal, which we can't actually do because of the lockdown but they got on board with it and our tutor said it was an interesting idea. It's about providing experimental evidence of the chivalry hypothesis. Anyway, I posted my proposal and made a joke in it, which someone said was hilarious and that she showed it to her family because she found it that funny. And this all sounds quite narcissistic talking about how great I am. It doesn't sink in though. The fucking parrot starts up again - you're worthless and everyone hates you. It can be easier and safer to think like that. Never try, because trying brings the risk of failure. Just assume that you're going to fail and it's all going to go wrong. But that's shit. It would be nice to wake up next to someone but I worry that there may be too many people in the relationship - me, her and that fucking parrot.

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56 minutes ago, Fluent In Silence said:

"Everyone hates me" like a parrot on my shoulder saying the same shit over and over again.

Why should you believe what a parrot says? Even the parrot doesn’t believe what it’s saying. In fact, a parrot doesn’t even know what it’s saying.

What the parrot says: Polly wants a cracker, whee-hoo

What the parrot thinks: pollowannacrakkawheehoo (followed by: Why do they keep feeding me these goddamned crackers?)

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Fluent In Silence My parrot is telling me not to say anything, because, why would you give the shiniest shit about what I thought? But I'm going to push through, because you have  made my day so many times, with your wit and humour.  You're really funny, I think without even trying to be, which is the best kind of funny. (fuck off, parrot). Your project sounds really interesting, as in, I want to know everything about it this very minute interesting. (Last warning, parrot). I have also observed you having insights to subjects that ordinary people wouldn't even think of. I think that you're pretty cool.  The Great Cerberus, as usual, has summed everything up very eloquently. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/13/2021 at 4:34 AM, KJ said:

@Fluent In Silence My parrot is telling me not to say anything, because, why would you give the shiniest shit about what I thought? But I'm going to push through, because you have  made my day so many times, with your wit and humour.  You're really funny, I think without even trying to be, which is the best kind of funny. (fuck off, parrot). Your project sounds really interesting, as in, I want to know everything about it this very minute interesting. (Last warning, parrot). I have also observed you having insights to subjects that ordinary people wouldn't even think of. I think that you're pretty cool.  The Great Cerberus, as usual, has summed everything up very eloquently. 

Hah! You may regret asking. Probably boring. Women are generally treated more leniently in the criminal justice system because they're only women and can't be held responsible for their actions in the same way as men. Not being a dick but that's basically chivalry theory. Most judges are male, and female judges give different verdicts. Also tend to be more racist for some reason. Anyway, what's the use of studying psychology if you can't fuck with people's heads? So I came up with an experiment where men would give judgements on what they thought was a suitable sentence for female criminals. But the experimental group would see a woman verbally kicking the shit out of a male before doing this, thereby undermining the idea that women are weak and tender creatures. Presumably they'd judge women more harshly after this. Which sounds bad when I put it like that. But that view of women more often leads to discrimination. "The poor, dear, fragile things" type of shit. She's just a woman. Reverse discrimination when it comes to criminality. One of the few perks of patriarchy. Am I being boring yet?

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1 hour ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Hah! You may regret asking. Probably boring. Women are generally treated more leniently in the criminal justice system because they're only women and can't be held responsible for their actions in the same way as men. Not being a dick but that's basically chivalry theory. Most judges are male, and female judges give different verdicts. Also tend to be more racist for some reason. Anyway, what's the use of studying psychology if you can't fuck with people's heads? So I came up with an experiment where men would give judgements on what they thought was a suitable sentence for female criminals. But the experimental group would see a woman verbally kicking the shit out of a male before doing this, thereby undermining the idea that women are weak and tender creatures. Presumably they'd judge women more harshly after this. Which sounds bad when I put it like that. But that view of women more often leads to discrimination. "The poor, dear, fragile things" type of shit. She's just a woman. Reverse discrimination when it comes to criminality. One of the few perks of patriarchy. Am I being boring yet?

Have you ever worked with implicit bias tests, specifically the Harvard ones? There is one that assesses women v men in the workplace, wonder if one could be created for the justice system 

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22 hours ago, Iceberg said:

Have you ever worked with implicit bias tests, specifically the Harvard ones? There is one that assesses women v men in the workplace, wonder if one could be created for the justice system 

Nah. Still early days in my course. I've just completed year 0, because it's a degree course for those not following the standard route and there's an extra year tagged on. I think I know what you mean though. The sort of unconscious bias which is shown through reaction times to stimuli or something like that. Or I may be thinking of something completely different. One thing which bothered be while researching this topic was reading about benevolent and hostile sexism. I'm not a hostile sexist, but am I guilty of benevolent sexism? I think I have commented somewhere that women tend to be nicer human beings than men, and they are aren't they? Name your top three arseholes who you'd put against the wall if you were king or queen. Probably all men. Not that every man is like that, but I'm not proud to share the same genitalia sometimes. But doesn't that lead to a view of women as being the "gentler sex"? Am I a benevolent sexist? Maybe I should try to behave worse towards women in order to not be sexist. I'm not going to do that. I'm talking shit and this is an intellectual brain fart. Don't overthink things. I could go on but I'll shut up now.

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On 6/3/2021 at 7:09 AM, Fluent In Silence said:

Am I being boring yet?

No. Not even. I'd go on but my brain is working less well than usual and I'm scared of saying the wrong thing.

19 minutes ago, Fluent In Silence said:

women tend to be nicer human beings than men

Women are the worst to each other. Seriously. I'd much rather hang with guys.

 

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8 minutes ago, KJ said:

Women are the worst to each other. Seriously. I'd much rather hang with guys.

That's a surprisingly common thing I've heard from women. I thought you were the gentler sex 😁. Someone once said that a misogynist is a man who hates women as much as women hate each other. Is that really true? Men do seem to be more simple in their relationships. Physical punishment is much simpler than the psychological torture women inflict on each other. Is it really that bad? Is everything I've just said bullshit? You're tender creatures aren't you? You like flowers and kittens and shit like that. I know that's all bullshit. I'm talking crap. I've found more in common with women than I have with men. Fucking masculinity.

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On 6/4/2021 at 8:27 AM, Fluent In Silence said:

Someone once said that a misogynist is a man who hates women as much as women hate each other.

I LOVE this!

 

On 6/4/2021 at 8:27 AM, Fluent In Silence said:

Is it really that bad?

Yes. When my kids were younger, I would time the school pick up to the second, to avoid making small talk with The Women. Of course it doesn't help that I'm Autistic, but I can usually strike up a conversation with a guy. I'm probably not the right person to be making comments on my gender peers. I'm the least girly girl you could find. My topics of conversation are not what the neurotypicals like to talk about, I could't give a rat's backside what colour my fingernails are this week. My eldest (18yr old female) keeps going on about my internalised misogyny. She's probably right, I grew up in a '70's-'80's Man's World. A world in which women were useless, apart from making babies and dinner. My headache drugs are starting to kick in, so I had better go before I start talking more shit than usual. Your project really does sound very interesting.

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Maybe it's nothing to do with men and women. People can just be terrible to each other irrespective of genitalia. For you it's fingernails, for me it was often sport. Pointless crap which I tried to care about for the sake of fitting in. I don't fucking care though. We lost! We won! Who is this "we" you're talking about? But men have to care about sports. Not a girly girl. Ha! Fair enough. Who gives a flying fuck about fingernails anyway? I don't know if I'm a manly man. I don't care about sports and I don't know what a carburetor is. What sort of man am I? But like I've said, masculinity can be ridiculous anyway. I guess femininity can be equally dumb. The things some women do to their bodies in pursuit of beauty. High heels. God they look uncomfortable. Wear something more practical and comfortable! But when women do such things it's not to please men, it's more often about competing with other women. I've talked about cankles before. I thought that was a joke at first. Women are worried that their ankles are too fat? Seriously? And men do objectivise women, and that's a problem. But I'm certain that men didn't invent the concept of cankles.

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I don't give a fig about sports. I find watching them tedious and dull. At the end of all that effort and strain, what have they accomplished? They've moved a small sphere or ovoid from one place to another, only to retrieve it afterward. Or thrown some object as far away as possible. Or ended up at the bottom of a hill (I saw that coming - gravity). Or run madly about in a circle. All in the service of doing the pointless thing more pointlessly than the other person.

I find American football an appalling holdover from the gladiatorial excesses of the court of Caligula, and I see nothing beautiful about The Beautiful Game elsewhere, other than there appears to be less ending up in a heap than in American football, or intentional beating of people with sticks as in hockey (internationally). I confess I have always had some intrigue toward cricket, mainly owing to being an Anglophile, but also because it seemed more genteel and less spitty and ass-scratchy than baseball.

As a morose school-age youth who suffered from exercise-induced asthma, I did not excel, or attempt to excel, or pantomime any attempt to excel at sports. In those horrid times when forced by Physical Education teachers (loathsome creatures - I condemn them wholesale as an entirely unnecessary blot on Western Civilization) to participate in team sports, I made myself as peripheral as possible. If it were baseball, I would engineer to be so far in the outfield that other participants looked like figurines in the distance.

I do not play sports. I never have. With one exception - I fence. I picked it up as an undergraduate, and found that I'm not bad at it. I had no interest in going into competition with it, but I always enjoyed sparring. I think it's because it is the only sporting activity that fits my need for order and precision.

The question you need to be asking yourself, however, is what kind of shape your nails are in, and are you using the right shade of polish to compliment your complexion?

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The other night I was watching rugby with a friend (it was three a.m. Drinks had been had) and one of the announcers yelled “What the fuck?!” and it was the best sports commentary ever. Rugby is the only sport I will watch, full stop; and if you try to explain the rules to me I will physically prevent you from doing so. Don’t you dare spoil this for me. 

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8 hours ago, Gearhead said:

if you try to explain the rules to me I will physically prevent you from doing so. Don’t you dare spoil this for me. 

So, as you're watching, as we assume, unencumbered by knowledge of the rules (aka how the game is supposed to be played), what is it that you entertain is actually happening on the field? If you had to explain the game to someone who had never seen it before, what would you say?

I don't know the rules of rugby either, and I don't believe I've ever watched endured an entire game of it. I've always assumed it's called 'rugby' because 'we all fall down' was too cumbersome to say, and because 'collisions and piles' suggests a board game like  'chutes and ladders'.

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@Fluent In Silence - It occurs to me to ask, given the current topic: Do you ever consider eating a worm? As in

Nobody loves me
Everybody hates me
I think I'll eat a worm

Never having done it myself, I can neither encourage nor discourage it, though it does seem hard on the worm. It's also difficult to see how, as a solution to the problem, it works to make one any more loveable.

But perhaps that's the point: A nonsensical solution to a nonsensical assertion. Given that the negative perception isn't really true, it hardly matters that the worm would be useless in correcting it and only helpful in amplifying the misery of the consumer. (Especially if it's reference to drowning one's misery in mezcal, which is contraindicated—alcohol is a depressant.)

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18 hours ago, Cerberus said:

So, as you're watching, as we assume, unencumbered by knowledge of the rules (aka how the game is supposed to be played), what is it that you entertain is actually happening on the field?

To me it’s like a combination of interpretive dance and and sibling rivalry gone vigorously awry. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/6/2021 at 10:41 PM, Gearhead said:

The other night I was watching rugby with a friend (it was three a.m. Drinks had been had) and one of the announcers yelled “What the fuck?!” and it was the best sports commentary ever. Rugby is the only sport I will watch, full stop; and if you try to explain the rules to me I will physically prevent you from doing so. Don’t you dare spoil this for me. 

Was that league or union rules? Don't know the difference between the two so answer however you want. It was rugby league, they were all riding hippos. Oh is that the difference? I thought it was something to do with scrums or something like that. Scrums, for those who are unaware of the term, are an opportunity for beefy heterosexual men to touch each other, or something. Talking of repressed homosexuality, wrestling. If it's not a real sport (which it isn't) then what is it? I think of it as a form of violent ballet for rednecks who are stuck in the closet. I want to see big sweaty oiled up men rolling around and pretending to fight! Hulk Hogan is a gay icon with that tash. We have big rivalries between football teams, most of which are owned by a rich foreigner and have mostly foreign born players. Not that it would make any difference to me if they were all local, would just make that 'we' sound a little less tenuous. I don't even give a shit about the Olympics. That's where nations of the world compete every four years in order to prove their genetic superiority or something like that. And they're against the use of drugs? Let them use drugs. That'll make it interesting. The 100 metres is just a bunch of people running in a straight line. Get the Russian runner so pumped full of drugs that he breaks the sound barrier and goes back in time after he crosses the finish line and nearly fucks his own mother 25 years in the past (Back to the Future reference there).

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