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The flip-side to the "women don't want nice guys" debate


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Any guys here who just don't find the "nice, well-adjusted, all-american girl next door" to be well, boring as hell? Any guys here who feel most like a man when they get to hold their woman when they cry? Or when they find out a woman they already like is really screwed up, has a lot of emotional pain, etc, they fall more madly in love than ever? Or fantasize about being some big rich successful Alpha-Male type who has the ability and the money and the resources to give her the life of her dreams? And because you're not (not yet anyway), your insecurity and low self-esteem and feelings of unworthiness go to work on you and give you the emotional equivalent of severing your genitals with a rusty knife? Yes, I speak from experience (the emotional part I mean).

Okay, anyone here old enough to follow Jerry Springer has heard the "women don't want nice guys...they find nice guys boring...they're excited by guys who treat them like @#$%...blah blah blah" shpeel. There's a reverse to it. There's guys who just aren't as attracted to women who have all their shit together. Or at least there's something extra exciting about those moments when they DON'T have their shit together. When he gets to hold the woman when she cries, comfort her, tell her "shhhh, its going to be alright, you'll see, I promise."

Can any guys relate? Can any women relate because they've known men like this? Or am I even more f'd in the head than I thought? Help me out here.

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I'm (clearly) not a guy,

But I can contribute something. I've found that guys love me when I'm batshit crazy. When I'm sane, I'm boring as hell. I don't know why the good guys only want me when I'm sitting at the bar, pounding shots, smoking cloves, looking like a devil in a green dress... but they do. When I'm plain Jade, all I get are the wild ones, the boys with a past. The current object of my affection dumped me, I think, because he tamed me. He knew I was wild when we first started dating. I told him about my wicked ways. Hell, I had attacked him in his car one night while he was in between his girlfriend (like they broke up then got back together - I got with him in between - so not physically - I'm not that much of a freak!) But when I ended up turning into a good ole' sweet, clean, virgin-like girl, he couldn't say "See Ya" fast enough.

So I don't know why. I just think you may be on to something.

J

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Assuming I get divorced and no miracles happen to my wife. I would be happy to have the "girl next door" as long as she loved me just because I was me. Hell, she could even be crazy, might say she'd have to be.

Tommy

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Maybe both sides like the challenge.

Me, I'd be happy with boring and sane for a change. I think. I've never had a partner who was either.

I agree. Both sides do like the challenge. I'm chasing after someone who hasn't wanted me romantically for 4 years!

And somewhere in my mind I think he's the boring and sane choice for me. Yeah, right!

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As a boring chick who (on the surface at least) keeps her shit together, I haven't had a date in dog-years, man. I'm thinking I should open up the hood and let some crazy out to improve my dating chances.

I have 2 very good guy pals here, and their consensus is the same as yours, psmith. The whackjobs are more appealing.

One friend was kind enough to spell it out even further:

"When someone's batshit, you find yourself kinda hoping the sex will be whacked and crazy, too. That gives us the horn."

ahem.

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I guess I have had several relationships when I was batshit crazy, and none of them were unaware. Yeah, I guess it's not boring. I know if things are just hum drum I get bored, wishing for the next crisis to come down the line.

I think one of them excused my wacked out behavior just to be the comforter so he could bed me. Asshole. Plus I'm a little on the flirty side, and guys find that attractive. Makes them feel special.

But yeah, my husband hated the fact that I was psycho. I think my long-term boyfriend felt the same way. I don't think they knew before that. I don't think I did. It explains a little bit more why they were physically abusive. And I didn't know what my problem was.

So, I guess I don't belong here because neither don't have my shit together (I used to, though!)

Sane guys are boring.

(That is so wrong I know.)

(But I can find the insanity in about any guy.)

(I like a good guy but a former bad boy.)

Sam

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Hi,

I want a nice guy as boyfriend and possibly husband.

im not sure what "nice huy" entails anymore - but Im positive it does NOT involve filing ridiculous lawsuits against me and divorcing me.

nice, sweet & adorable plus the ability to talk & a good penis - thats what im looking for.

db

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Guys usually want to leave me when they find out I'm crazy. If men fell "more madly in love than ever" when they learn I have emotional pain, I wouldn't have 600 ex-boyfriends.

What I've found is that guys are super-attracted to me initially, but the more I reveal of my neurosis, the closer they are to hitting the highway.

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Just wanted to add something to this: women who are HOT when they're mad. Not that we (guys) like seeing them unhappy, but there's just something about some women when they're pissed off. Especially when you know she's on your side. There's something so much fun about watching a pretty woman go storming around the house going "this is BULLSHIT!! This is FUCKING BLAH BLAH BLAH!!" Or watching her just really let someone have it, I mean just bitch someone out up one side and down the other. Oh, there's nothing like it....except if you're the poor bastard who was stupid enough to piss her off.

But even then, making up with a woman like this can be so fucking hot. When she's sitting off in a corner by herself somewhere giving you the silent treatment and smoking a cigarette, and you try to sweet talk her and say sorry and try to get her to smile by saying something funny or (if you're really really brave) tickling her. And you know that she's so strong-willed and stubborn that she's going to fight with everything she has to stay mad at you and not give in. For me anyway, there's something about a woman who is very strong-willed, spunky, stubborn, who speaks her mind, and knowing that you have that special place in her heart where she just can't stay mad at you no matter how hard she tries.

You know, there are people who say they can teach "nice guys" how to be exciting to women when they weren't before. Maybe the most important thing you find out (from what little I've read of this stuff) is that "nice guys" aren't unexciting to women because they have warmth and compassion and are decent human beings. "Nice guys" are unexciting to women when besides being nice, they're also timid, passive, unsure of themselves, generally not comfortable in their own skin. And guys who treat women badly aren't exciting because they treat women badly, but because they're usually NOT timid, passive, unsure of themselves, or uncomfortable in their own skin (or if they are they hide it really well).

So maybe guys like me who are attracted to women with a lot of problems, who are in a lot of pain, have been abused etc, don't find these women exciting because they're in a lot of pain or have problems but for other reasons. I mean, I won't just fall for any woman who has a lot of problems and a lot of hurt in her life. There has to be other things I like about her first. One woman who I fell madly in love with (an exotic dancer), I starting falling in love with when I still THOUGHT she had all her shit together. When I first met her she was so cute and sweet and flirty, and then I started just shooting the shit with her whenever business was slow, and I found she was so much more. She was so intelligent, so deep, so philosophical, so fascinating. I would ask her opinions on things just because I found her so fascinating, I wanted to know what she thought about anything and everything. I couldn't know enough about her.

And I can remember even before I ever found out she really DIDN'T have her shit together nearly as much as she seemed to, I was already fantasizing about her being in some sort of trouble and me rescuing her, making it alright, making her happy again. And as far as I still knew, she totally had her shit together (yes I know years later how naive it was to think an exotic dancer had her shit together)! Then I found out she really did have a busload of pain in her life, starting with her mom severely beating and neglecting her as a kid, and I was toast. You could stick a fork in me cause I was done. Madly irreversibly in love.

It wasn't that I loved her more BECAUSE she didn't have all her shit together, but now I could "rescue" her, take care of her, protect her, be her "hero". And its like I read on another board, having to do with that "how to be exciting like the assholes" stuff, there are women who really DO have their shit together, and still need to be protected, still need a hero. I need to work on my own busload of issues first so I can be the man and give her the kind of life she deserves, but when I do I'm going to find one of those women.

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I am way more attracted to guys with emotional issues. In fact, I would have to say I am not attracted at all to guys without emotional issues. (SO codependent!) I want to make them feel better and I want them to protect me. That hasn't worked so well. Same song, different verse. I like the concept of "I'll nurture you, you protect me" type of thing.

Yeah, but just like VE said, hell no to the cookie cutter people. Of course, most cookie cutter people don't have emotional issues. So I guess I'm pretty safe there. And people without emotional issues think I am a fruitcake. "Run awayyyyy!"

So. Basically, I am nice.

Oh. But we need to have our shit together first? I had my shit together. I went crazy. Shit was still pretty together for a year. Now, shit is not together. Destined to be alone forever. Damn, I love this thread!

Sam

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great topic!

three thoughts (from someone who is also guilty of falling for the "bad boys" - and the "bad girls", hehe):

- if he/she is too together (too perfect too happy too successful too healthy yadda yadda), then the onus will be on me to be just as sane and productive and positive. i don't wanna. my self-esteem can't take the constant comparison between sucky me and successful you. and if i ever get to success, or happiness, or health, i want it to be because i wanted to get there, not because i was competing with my partner.

- the absence of drama in someone's life usually predicts how well said someone understands/copes with other people's drama. the more sane and stable someone is, the less they can understand/tolerate my flipping the hell out (or refusing to get out of bed, or whatever). i am tired of trying (in vain) to educate people or get some kind of empathy from someone who has never, ever been there (and probably never will be). people who are "bad" or "different" are more likely to get it, period, and i don't have to waste energy constantly reminding someone that no, i can't just "snap out of it".

- i forget who said it already (damn it's good not to have to apologize for that here, heh), but the observation about "nice guys/girls" being less confident was spot on. it's not the "bad" behaviour per se, but the level of self-assuredness leading to more passionate, engaging behaviour that's attractive. "nice" sometimes means "i want to please others" sometimes means "please please like me" sometimes means "i recognize no needs of my own" sometimes means "codependant and boring".

my two (hundred) cents worth ;)

-lysergia

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I'm as guilty of this as the rest of you, and am currently involved in some freakshow rescuer/rescuee "relationship", so this comes from absolutely no position of moral authority.

But I think that the idea that you desire someone to "rescue" is something you should be working against. Having been in several of these kinds of relationships, I am of the opinion that they do not operate without some strange and fucked-up power dynamic (how can "I want to save and protect you" [implying that this person is incapable of saving and protecting themselves] work any other way?). Like I said, I have a messiah complex of my own, and I'm a fucked up little girl, but I see the inherent dysfunction, I think...

And I agree with mad genius in that I think that my crazy draws people in, but it's pretty quick to throw them back out. Most people can only take so much of my shit before their survival instincts kick in and they leave. The time it takes someone to leave me is probably inversely proportional to their sanity level.

Ah, well.

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What about a mute guy with a penis that talks?
dimensions, por favor?

VE, what's gotten into you? I'm in an MDD episode from the 4th ring of hell and you're Mr. Social Butterfly. Are you wearing my underpants?

;)

Seriously, I have been so damaged by bad boys that to me what is desirable is neither rescuer nor rescuee, simply an equal (water seeks it's own level sort of thing) partner. I'm aware, at this juncture, I'm not the partner I want in a man, so I'm doing things to be stronger, so I have something to give, so that I can receive. I did the altruistic, nurse my husband til death do us part--I got more than I gave, no doubt, but not without obvious and FAAAAAAAAAAR, RAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWRRRRRRRR reaching consequences.

I don't need to be saved, and I don't want to save anyone. I want someone who has a healthy libido and likes to have sex a lot, watch Carlos Mencia, eat sushi, go for bicycle rides, ya know? Take pictures, make art. I'm crazy enough to be interesting always, but there are levels of crazy, and certain levels, like the one I'm at now, that are requiring intensive medical care are not conducive to relationships outside the immediate and I mean circle them fucking wagons. My reasoning behind this, I'm not even talking on the phone to people I love dearly, is that when I'm THIS crazy, and THIS vulnerable, I'm a walking advert for HURT ME PLEASE, and I can't take no mo' dat shit. This ole whoredog had enuf.

3 centavos,

S9

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Hope that I am not talking out of turn. It took me years before I realized that all the shitheads I was involved with were the same person, they just looked different. Like tons of you, they accepted and sometimes encouraged my nuts, then fed into it, then took control i=of it. Manipulation, isolation, abuse, ya know all the really lousy shit. My point is, now, almost 20 years later I have realized that if I walk into a room, the guy I will be most attracted to will be the one that can do me the most harm and bring out the worst in me. Now instead of running to him, i run away. I would rather be bored then dead. I finally did meet someone about 4 years ago and we are still together. We each have our own shit and work really hard on saving ourselves instead of each other. This sounds really hokey, but I see people as lighthouses now. Life is like the ocean, we are all in a boat. Some boats are little, others big. Sometimes, the water is calm and other times it is hell. Nothing can change the conditions, but the lighthouse will always guide you to shore. It doesn't stop a storm, it doesn't save you. It just lets you know where it is safe. It is our job to move towards it. I hope that you are all not laughing your asses off at me, but i had to offer what i can. I got a tatoo of one and I look at it a million times a day to remind me of this. Sex is sex and lets face it the hurricanes rock your world, but when it comes to relationships, look for a lighthouse. I'll shut up now. ;)

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