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Now I know how to do it


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Sheesh Waterfall. Well, I don't know what to say. The closest I've come to that kind of thing is my tdoc telling me that if I wanted to kill myself, I should go ahead, because he has no right to stop me. Ethics anyone?

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Overdosing seemed so much easier to me than actually taking that knife and ending it all. That's why my mom takes care of my meds now. I know a girl who goes to the hospital twice a week to get her a supply of meds for a few days. A solution like that might come in handy if you ever feel suicidal. I don't like the thought of you having a bunch of pills laying around that you know could end it all. I really don't.

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I felt like that too. When you have a disorder that makes you profoundly unable to control what is going on with you, anything that seems to offer control can be comforting.

What I'm trying to do now is remind myself that with increasing knowledge comes the responsibility to catch myself on the downslide earlier. For example, I learned to use firearms several weeks ago. I thought a *lot* in the few months leading up to it about whether it was a safe thing for me to do. And I decided it would be safe, because I had the ability to start catching myself earlier, and I have promised myself I will. I don't recommend learning to use firearms, especially to people who do have the impulsivity problems and the suicidality that often come with bipolar. But the general thing is that this is a way to take dangerous knowledge and make it safer.

I think it's possible to have both, to have both the comfort and the responsibility. But it's really important to have the responsibility.

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i was curious about the subject while not suicidal (even though in my depressions i am suicidal), so i read a book about the subject. now i'm the expert on how to commit suicide should i ever decide to do it.

when they asked me if i had a plan on how to do it during my last suicidal depression hospitalization and i told them, i thought their heads were going to explode. they got me into the psych ward pretty fast after that one.

now i know how to kill myself AND get immediate medical attention for the desire to do so!

my dad did kill himself with an overdose of pmeds. i won't tell you what he took because it was a very clever combination and he was a very smart person and must have researched it for a long time. he must have gotten his pdoc to RX those exact things and planned it well in advance. that motherfucker. i love him.

loon

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Hi Waterfall,

This could be very dangerous information should you find yourself in a downward spiral.

Please remember, (and I speak from experiance) that should you make an attempt with your pmeds, they can and will change it so that you only have access to enough meds for a couple of days at a time. It becomes a huge pain in the arse after awhile.

I have had to make the decision the be on Consta again so that having bottles full of pills in the house does not tempt me into an overdose when I am on a suicide mission from hell.

I know that you are not suicidal right now, but please becareful with whatever info you pocess in the future.

Blessings,

Selene

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Living in the Midwest, guns are pretty prevalent, but there's a reason I never took the opportunity to learn how to use one. Lately my suicidal thoughts have included cutting my arms which I would never do because I hate the sight of blood and would promptly pass out if I tried. I guess it's a good thing that suicide is among the things I suck at.

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I just feel empowered knowing that if I really had to, I could do it. Crazy, isnt' it.
No. Not crazy. Even though I don't feel particularly suicidal right now, I believe we have the right to that decision. Not undertaken while in the midst of a transient episode. But after all the other options have completely expired, we shouldn't be prevented from doing the same.

At the same time, I agree with Selene that it is worrisome to have an exact plan when a truly transient episode does hit. I'm of the mind that if you have developed an exact plan (especially if you're not in the middle of an episode) that plan should be specifically coupled with a "no-earlier-than" date and a "not-before-I've-tried" list.

~cache-monkey

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having a plan is suicidal. having a safety pack of cigarettes in the freezer is still addicted.

if you're getting a sense of empowerment through the prospect of disempowering yourself completely (by taking your own life), that is suicidal.

get help now.

it is crazy, but not in the sense that you shouldn't feel it. you are suicidal - it is what you are going to feel. some people have expressed the notion that being suicidal isn't crazy - i suppose sometimes it isn't crazy. crazy isn't all bad, but when i am so in the crazy that i want to end it all, on the horn or to the ER i go. because as much as some crazy stuff is OK, some of it is tolerable when augmented with meds, suicidality is just not on the list of OKness. even a plan without desire to carry it out.

please tell someone who can help, like your doctor or a close friend/relative.

peace n' crazy,

pj

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I won't say it here because I don't want to give anyone any ideas. And I am in no mood to kill myself anyway.

robot2.jpgDanger, Will Robinson. Moods change. Especially when you're bipolar.

I just feel empowered knowing that if I really had to, I could do it.

I have sometimes heard this expressed before, and I personally sharply disagree with this philosophy. It assumes that your life has no inherent value beyond how you feel. Wrong. You are a thread in the web of humanity; everything you do, every motion you make, no matter how small, sets the whole web vibrating, even if you can't perceive it yourself. One shy smile to a stranger in the morning, that brightens his day, will propagate itself from person to person like ripples from a pebble dropped in the pond, and will have lifted scores of hearts by sunset. Everything you do vibrates the web around you. And when a strand is cut, the entire web is weakened. Consider this from John Donne:

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Neither can we call this a begging of misery or a borrowing of misery, as though we are not miserable enough of ourselves but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbors. Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did; for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it. No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction.

Waterfall, you are not on Earth by accident. You have a role to play, even if you don't ever know what it is. Your life is a miracle, and a gift, and if you're thinking I sound like a Hallmark card, think again. There's nothing sweet or mushy about what I'm saying. You were born to be among us, and senseless suicide is an offense to all humankind. It is not, and should not be, an option.

This is coming from a guy who yearns for death. I crave it. I can see no hope of relief on the horizon, and because my children need me, I will not indulge in the possibility of actually doing it. No relief; no escape either; I'm well and truly trapped in this hell. But even at my very lowest, grimmest moment, when I got on my knees and begged God to end me, taking my own life was never an option. It would bring too much hurt to others, and I have no right to do that.

I realize, too, that my suffering makes me better able to help others, to make their suffering less by seeing how I have endured mine. Even my suffering has a purpose. So does yours, even if it doesn't seem so. Iron cannot become steel until it has suffered through the furnace.

So... no. You may not deprive the world of the good, and the potential good, you do by living. And you would be indescribably foolish to cut off a future that could be full of joy, just around the corner. That's like killing yourself to prevent the pangs of starvation, one hour before you were to receive an invitation to a banquet. Not an option. Sorry. Forget about your plans. As long as you offer yourself the possibility of doing it, there will always be a danger that you actually will.

I know quite well that some will disagree with me, and say that there is comfort in believing that it's an option, but the poor comfort that provides is not an acceptable trade for the risk of leaving you more likely to snuff yourself. What's more - each time you think, "I can kill myself any time I want", you diminish your own sense of self-worth. What could be worse than hearing your own mind tell you you're not worth keeping alive? These folks will argue that having the option to kill yourself will keep you from doing it. That's just woolly thinking, in my opinion. I've had too many moments that I would have done it - no question - exept that I had decided that it was forbidden.

Your feelings of wanting to die are an illusion. They aren't real. They are a byproduct of a chemical imbalance causing miscommunication among your neurons, like a short in a wire. That's what "crazy" means around here. So, if you're crazy, how much sense does it make to take your own advice about killing yourself? I often ask people here whether they really want to die, or just want the pain to stop. I have never had anyone answer that they wanted to die. Your pain will stop, as soon as you find the right med combo to give you relief. And do you really know what awaits your soul afterward? Annihilation? Oblivion? Limbo? Hell? The answer could be Heaven, but nobody knows for certain, and that's a horrific risk to take. Hamlet put it fairly clearly:

To be, or not to be: that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,

And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;

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Opinions are bound to vary on this one. Some people do feel like they are less compelled to commit suicide if they know it's an option, that there IS an escape hatch and where that hatch is. For others, that sort of advanced planning could be very, very dangerous, more likely to encourage taking that route than avoiding it when they find themselves at the bottom of the abyss. I'm sure somebody is going to disagree with that and say the danger would be equal for everybody, but I'm not sure about that.

The clincher is that unfortunately there's no way to really test which it happens to be until the person is in that situation, and then it's too late.

So personally, I think it's one of those roads best left untravelled. Just because you don't feel like doing it right now doesn't mean you might not have a sudden episode and end up changing that opinion very quickly. I agree you should talk to your doctor or therapist about this.

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I assure you, I am not suicidal. What happened was I told my pdoc about one med I talke and told me not to drink alcohol with it because it could kill me. I took that to heart and I won't drink with the med. I am NOT suicidal. It's just a good thing to know. For safety reasons. But also to know that I could. But I never would. I have seven children. I am not even depressed right now. I think I finally have the right cocktail.

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Heya Waterfall,

Well, I'm relieved now compared to the first post, which was alarming.

But, I mean, really. Figuring out how to cause your own death isn't hard. There's this thing calle the InterWeb or something which is like this giant encyclopedia without an editor.

Figuring out how to *not* cause your own death, now *that's* hard, and yeah, Waterfall, I think you've hit on a good cocktail at this point.

FYI your doc wasn't inadvertently telling you how to off yourself. He was making sure you know the common and the severe side effects of your medication. He could have picked a more roundabout way of saying it, but maybe that's the nature of your mutual communication style?

I would bring it up with him though at your next meeting, not as a big deal but as a "So, before I forget, I wanted to ask you about something you said at our last meeting," or something. As a doc I would want to know that something I said affected you like that and I would want the chance to review with you what I really intended.

Glad to know you're not suicidal, not even depressed!

--ncc--

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I am intimately familiar with firearms and that would be my method of choice, therefor I gave all but two of my guns to my ex and the two I kept are locked and hidden by my wife, who has also hidden the key. Of course, I can go buy a decent shotgun off the shelf at WalMart for almost nothing anytime I feel a need. I call my therapist and/or p-doc any time I start to feel that need. My p-doc said, "I don't care if you're on your way out of WalMart with the shotgun under your arm, take a minute and give me a call."

Tommy

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I totally understand where this comes from. I suspect my gf of throwing away my copy of Final Exit shortly after we moved in together. If this is because she didn't want me to have it or because she was scared she would read it, I don't know.

There is comfort there. As Nietzsche said in twisted German grammar,

" The thought of suicide is a powerful solace: by means of it one gets through many a bad night "

You gotta have faith in something i guess.

I've always found that even when I can't find a single thing to live for, I've got a tons of things I believe in strongly enough that I'd be willing to die for them. Since at this point in time there is no way I can die in the cause of helping to end world hunger, I might as well hang on. I get to die once in my life. To do it just because I feel shitty seems like a waste.

(don't worry, I'm not planning on turning terrorist)

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I assure you, I am not suicidal. What happened was I told my pdoc about one med I take

and told me not to drink alcohol with it because it could kill me. I took that to heart and I won't drink with the med. I am NOT suicidal. It's just a good thing to know. For safety reasons. But also to know that I could. But I never would. I have seven children. I am not even depressed right now. I think I finally have the right cocktail.

Depressed or not, it's always good to know the Bad Things well enough to avoid them.

Better than philosophy is concrete action to disable or at least impedethe plans you

know you've considered - selling the gun, pouring the booze down the drain, getting

Mom to ration the meds, not growing oleander in the front yard, etc.

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The problem with a med that doesn't play well with alcohol, I suspect, is that instead of killing you it just damages you. Severely. Or, it kills you slowly.

We have brains. We can think. If anyone can't figure out a reliable way to off themselves properly, it means part of their brain wants them to live. Heed that part. If they CAN figure it out, then perhaps that other part of their brain is trying a different strategy. In general, IMHO, suicide for anyone whose situation is short of advanced terminal cancer is probably not a good idea, though I'll admit telling myself that "if this pain doesn't go away in six months, I can kill myself" when I had severe back pain.

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It's not a crazy med that he warned me about using alcohol with. I don't drink anymore anyway, so it's a moot point.

That widens the field quite a bit. I bet you'd rather have known that when it was first prescribed, whether you drank at

the time or not...

That reminds me - I don't recall hearing a doctor say much about side effects or prohibited combinations with

common chemicals (alcohol, OTC meds, etc.) from anything other than a crazymed or maybe a painkiller.

I know, it's probably in the PI sheet - somewhere - in microprint.

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