Oh... My... God...

[cattwomannc]

I'm Speechless!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15408508/

[Maddy]

Rush is an ASS.

(and a fuckin hippocritical pharm-junkie)

Ok, that was a low blow, but true.

[AirMarshall]

Well, Rush isn't known for subtlety or for being PC. Still, he is essentially correct.

For some reason I haven't seen the campaign ad, so I'm not sure what angle Michael J. Fox is using.

However,

- He IS using his illness to shill for a democratic candidate.

- He IS skipping his medication to display the exagerated [extreme] effects when untreated.

How would we feel if they had:

- Convinced an alcoholic celebrity to quit sobriety, and make an ad while drunk, promoting a candidate in favor of more treatment services?

- Had a schizophrenic and a bipolar stop taking medication to make ads while delusional and manic?

- Induced a diabetic celebrity to skip his insulin and go into seizures and coma while filming?

It's not the illness at question, its a matter of how far people are willing to go to promote political candidates.

a.m.

[Penny Century]

- He IS skipping his medication to display the exagerated [extreme] effects when untreated.

where did you read this? things i have read have stated that he was on his meds in those ads. the only reason they seem exagerated is because we're used to the massive editing they do on boston legal.

and if he supports a canidate and a cause, how is he a shill? that implies insincerity and i'm pretty sure he really believes in what he's doing.

[Maddy]

I have seen the ad and the ad is for stem cell research.

And is in favour of candidates that support stem cell research, etc.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?client=firefo...30270986%26x%3D

[AirMarshall]

From the quoted article:

Fox was campaigning yesterday for Tammy Duckworth, a congressional candidate, outside Chicago, when he alluded to Limbaugh's remarks. "It's ironic, given some of the things that have been said in the last couple of days, that my pills are working really well right now," he said, according to a report on the CBS2 Web site.

This summer I saw the interview Fox gave, where he showed footage of himself on the meds, and gave the interview after having skipped his meds. The difference was shocking and emotionally moving. Off the meds he is in continuous motion in all planes and it is difficult to watch. On meds there are still small motions and he is obviously straining. He mentioned that at home he occasionally takes med holidays to remind himself of where the disease has taken him.

a.m.

[lilie]

okay simple question here does Mike J fox have the illness or not? and if so- so what if he doesn't take his meds? and so what if he does? it's been long known that he has the condition no matter how he has or hasn't been taking his meds.

and supporting a cause? so what? people with certain conditions can't support a cause? or they have to look "appropriate" to make the viewers or listeners feel confortable. How about someone says that to anyone of us here when were in the pits or manic-that hey YOU don't count because you're depressed and your meds aren't "making you acceptable to viewers" or "hey you're too damn manic-take something and look right for the cameras." and then have them go on to say: oh well they're OBVIOUSLY manic or depressed because they want to look pitiful for the democratic, republican,green, anarchist ticket-so discount them. and then give a half-assed nonsincere apology about it later.

and as I recall rushie boy spent QUITE a few days on air unmedicated AND medicated (without others knowledge of course with illegal meds) supporting HIS causes vociferously.

so exactly what's the problem here? no one can support their cause only unless it's rushies way? maybe Mike should have dropped some pain killers- a little oxycontin, hydrocone,or lorcet- would he have been more credible then? would Mike have been "allowed" to talk then about the candidates he supports without bias?

hell and who knows if Rush wasn't bent while he was doing the interview...I'd have to wonder at ANYONE that mocks another persons potentially fatal illness-I don't give a shit what the reason is.

oh yes and how many of us on here are perfect saints that remember to take our meds every single day-never forgetting? always in balance right on course-yeah fuckin right.

lilie

[Penny Century]

From the quoted article:

Fox was campaigning yesterday for Tammy Duckworth, a congressional candidate, outside Chicago, when he alluded to Limbaugh's remarks. "It's ironic, given some of the things that have been said in the last couple of days, that my pills are working really well right now," he said, according to a report on the CBS2 Web site.

This summer I saw the interview Fox gave, where he showed footage of himself on the meds, and gave the interview after having skipped his meds. The difference was shocking and emotionally moving. Off the meds he is in continuous motion in all planes and it is difficult to watch. On meds there are still small motions and he is obviously straining. He mentioned that at home he occasionally takes med holidays to remind himself of where the disease has taken him.

a.m.

unless you are alanis morisett, what he is saying there is that it is ironic that rush thinks he is skipping his meds as they are actually working rather well.

the meds for parkinsons aren't stable. they can sometimes make patients ridgid, and they don't offer complete control.

stating that he takes med holidays at home is not the same as saying he did so for the ads. perhaps he did not go to the extremes he goes to on TV to hold himself still by straining, but that doesn't mean that he did not take his meds for the ads. his statement in that article about irony in no way states that he did not take his meds for the ads.

[cattwomannc]

Well, Rush isn't known for subtlety or for being PC. Still, he is essentially correct.

For some reason I haven't seen the campaign ad, so I'm not sure what angle Michael J. Fox is using.

However,

- He IS using his illness to shill for a democratic candidate.

a.m.

So, a person with a visible illness or disability of some sort is "using" said illness or disability if they support a political candidate? Oh right, I forgot, people who are not normal should never voice their opinions.

So, I guess if I were missing an arm and supported a polictical candidate that opposed, say, the use of landmines, that would be using my disability or, as Rush would have it, "faking" my disability for political purposes? Why couldn't it be that I just oppose the use of landmines just like some people with both arms do?

[AirMarshall]

Penny,

- I was relating that I have followed his story with interest over the last couple years, and that I had seen his revelation this summer of himself unmedicated. I have no knowledge of any daily or short term variation in parkinsons meds. Michael Fox has class and has handled the public image of his illness gracefully.

On first read I took his comment about the meds as being indirect confirmation that he wasn't taking his meds for the ads. On second read, he didn't deny it, and being out campaigning its easy to duck it by saying "hey, my meds are fine today". I echoed the word shill, because I was cynically lazy and hadn't any idea of the tone of his ads. I agree that he is anything but insincere.

I still haven't seen the Maryland ad that is in question. I did just see an ad he did for the Missouri politician. That ad was not as extreme as I would have imagined. His motions were neither as well controlled as I have seen him this year, nor as bad as the interview he gave unmedicated. It didn't seem to be in bad taste, and probably isn't any different than ones where the candidate is shown at special olympics or visting paralyzed vets in a hospital. They are all done to play on our heart strings and a certain amount of pity. For people who aren't aware of Fox's illness it may be a little shocking.

Lillie,

I'm not sure, but from your first paragraph, I take it that you think it acceptable if Fox had skipped meds to create a dramatic effect. What are your thoughts on my other examples? Where do we draw the line?

a.m.

[abifae]

How would we feel if they had:

- Convinced an alcoholic celebrity to quit sobriety, and make an ad while drunk, promoting a candidate in favor of more treatment services?

- Had a schizophrenic and a bipolar stop taking medication to make ads while delusional and manic?

- Induced a diabetic celebrity to skip his insulin and go into seizures and coma while filming?

It's not the illness at question, its a matter of how far people are willing to go to promote political candidates.

a.m.

alcoholic skipping sobriety - that goes further because of the effort to quit any drug. starting a bad habit again is just foolish.

schizophrenic and bipolar stop meds... if they were willing to go through it, i don't see anything wrong with: this is me on and off my meds (with enough time between each to show what it's really like) could be very effective to show WHY we need more research into medicaitons and more money to get the meds to those who can't afford them. although, personally, i would like it to be done more documentary style... the going off the meds, the being off of them for a month, the easing back on, the stability once back on them. actually, that might be quite effective for explaining MI to a LOT of people, politics aside.

diabetic skipping insulin... that's right back up there with the drunk... that is opting for possible suicide in support of a candidate.

for me, the line has much more to do with how this is actually affecting the person's life. if Fox skipped his meds for his ad, is it hurting him in any way? if he takes med holidays, i'd say it won't hurt him.

some bipolars and schizophrenics might be able and willing to do a med holiday to show what they are like off their meds. but i'd hope if someone were paying them to do this, they would have their job still after all this and compensation for the lost time off of meds. if it was something likely to throw them off for a year or cause more problems, then they'd be foolish to do it.

however, any of them who chose that as a way to show support, right up to the suicidal diabetic, i say let them. it wouldn't bother me if someone said "you don't think we need insulin and diabetic research? watch this film where i go off insulin entirely and then tell me what you think". i'd think they were dumb to risk their lives, but that's their choice.

i DO want to know in any of these cases what they are or aren't on and why.

as for rush, he's an ass and it's total bullshit to accuse someone of faking an illness altogether on the possibility they are off their meds. but i've never liked listening to him. he's a pompous junkie who is making money off shocking people, just like so many other talk show hosts.

abifae

[lilie]

A.M. you take me wrong. You said "

Lillie,

I'm not sure, but from your first paragraph, I take it that you think it acceptable if Fox had skipped meds to create a dramatic effect. What are your thoughts on my other examples? Where do we draw the line?

I am saying that if we suddenly didn't take out meds does that make us less sincere internally? does that lessen our need to support our cause? and if he supposedly "did" create a dramatic effect (which I'm seriously doubting) did that mean he didn't believe in his cause? Or that he suddenly after all these years opted to "trick" his audience by making them feel sorry for him? Is that what supposedly happened?

and as far as your other examples:

How would we feel if they had:

- Convinced an alcoholic celebrity to quit sobriety, and make an ad while drunk, promoting a candidate in favor of more treatment services?

- Had a schizophrenic and a bipolar stop taking medication to make ads while delusional and manic?

- Induced a diabetic celebrity to skip his insulin and go into seizures and coma while filming?

all of those situations though sad and unnecessary the question remains: if impaired and acting up are they less sincere? do their hearts suddenly change or the courage of their convictions falter because their behaviors are repugnant to others? or is "looking good" the most important thing there is? alcoholics fall off mi folks sometimes stop taking meds diabetics don't do whats best for themselves sometimes so that makes them unworthy of making an opinion onscreen? you're saying "yes' if it's an act for the public. But rush can do all the drugs he wants for effect and I guess thats okay because its his show right?

if you miss meds do you suddenly change political parties, do not support what you previously supported or suddenly deny the alliances that once formed a great part of your life? I never have but maybe some people do. but in this case I'm doubting it. Rush didn't get what he wanted onscreen out of Fox and went nastily for the jugular.

he's trash...(in my opinion)

lilie

[Libby]

To quote Al Franken, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot!"

[AirMarshall]

Ok, Lillie I understand what you said about people having illnesses and being fallable. However you still failed to address the original issue:

Is is ethical to exploit a persons medical condition for political purposes by dramatizing/amplifying the condition by witholding medication/treatment?

a.m.

[Becca]

I love Al Franken! I bought Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them at Goodwill for $5 the other day.

I don't understand how if Michael J Fox chose to do this of his own free will- which he clearly did- it reflects negatively on anyone. Like abifae said- showing what illnesses can do untreated is an important thing. If Fox really believes that stem cell research is the way to go (which I have no doubt he does and I have no problem with), then I think he's free to do whatever he likes to himself in order to "prove" and support it.

Were the buddhist monks who lit themselves on fire during Vietnam shilling for anti-war politics?

Ummm.... it's not "dramatizing" the effects- the medication is "minimizing" the affects.

I mean, it's not as if he's really "okay" and he was purposefully causing the condition to worsen so that he could "look bad." He has Parkinson's. It's all downhill.

Does he have an obligation to put on a happy face for the camera? Would a cancer patient who declined to wear a wig for an interview be thought of as "exploiting" their condition for pity?

[lilie]

what ethical? He DID NOT dramatize his illness for the sake of the cameras. and if you care about things being ethical is it ethical for rush to be a drug fiend while trying to influence the whole country with his ravings? and if you think (obviously you do) that Mike DID "act" for the cameras so you're offended and thus it's "unethical" my answer is NO even if he did tweak his meds for sympathy (which i don't think he did) I don't think it's unethical.ALL people regardless of behavior (fake, real, wild, whatever) are allowed to have their say. Just like you are allowed to say they're unethical and I'm allowed to say it isn't. Everyone is allowed their perception.

Clear now?

Lilie

[null0trooper]

Ok, Lillie I understand what you said about people having illnesses and being fallable. However you still failed to address the original issue:

Is is ethical to exploit a persons medical condition for political purposes by dramatizing/amplifying the condition by witholding medication/treatment?

How is this applicable to Michael J. Fox ?

I saw a clip from the commercial - the guy was ON his medication. Parkinson's Disease, like the "lead-pipe rigidity"

of severe EPS/NMS, makes you stop moving. Tremor, rigidity, and bradykinesia are the hallmark symptoms. Also

common are "mask-like" expression, slurred speech, and overly-soft speech - none of which are even as photogenic

as what he normally lets the public see.

Unlike diabetes, there isn't a nice simple gadgit available to tell you whether to adjust your meds. Unlike hypothyroid,

one or two pills a day for the rest of your life doesn't get and keep you at a properly working blood level. Instead,

PD patients get a medication known for overshooting and then halting its effects before the next one is due ... and

eventually it stops working altogether. (There IS more than just l-dopa, but many of the combinations and agonists

are used to delay having to go on it, and then to keep it working as long as possible)

[AirMarshall]

The examples are applicable because they address the core accusation that Limbaugh made, to wit, that Fox was manipulating his symptoms either by faking or by not taking his medications, in order to promote a political candidate. [edit: Some people had said that is would be acceptable if he dropped his meds to make his symptoms worse for the ad. I provided more examples for consideration].

Keep in mind that our initial discussion started 3 days ago and was based on a wire report, not having seen any of the various ads Fox made. While they were probably all made at the same time, I have yet to see the Maryland ad.

a.m.

[Alyson]

Last night on news I heard that the medication can cause the symptoms we saw.

So who is it that knows Fox did what with his medication?

And Rush has been a Big Republican A-Hole from the start of his career.

Just yelling out to get money, just saying what all the too nice of people would never say, and what is just wrong!

Oh yeah all the people that thought Howard Stern was such a going to Hell blasphemist, well they just all might be surprised who ends up where, or together.

*Had to edit here, for who the hell am I to judge and say who will end up where, and where is where?

I just want to say what is going on right here, right here and now, people.*

I like to see someone with proof, before all these accusations.

And to a fine man, that is living with a very painful disease.

And damn right he wants to find a cure for it.

And the answer has been right there for years.

In Stem Cells.

So if we would get off our so call moral high horses, and for reasons we do not even understand, but just because we are told so by our churchs, pastors, parents.

And begin to take care of the very ill right here on this earth.

Right here with us, that are suffering.

The very young to old.

The rich and poor.

All races, and genders.

The Repuplicans and the Democrats.

Diseases and genetic disorders have no Parties, no campaign funding, political agendas.

But they can be cured by stem cell research.

So no it is not political.

It is humanity.

Aly

[Loon-A-TiK]

Becca said very well what I would like to contribute to this discussion.

[Libby]

On one of the news shows, they said Michael J Fox was 5 for 5. In the states where he aired his stem cell ads, Dems all won! so THERE, Rush Limbaugh, you big FAT IDIOT.