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If ultimately in an existential sense we are all alone.

And if we only have a limited amount of control over our own selves, much less the rest of the population...

What does one do if you cannot stand yourself?

I mean, if there is a person that is annoying to you, you have the free will to remove yourself from their presence or at least avoid them at all costs.

But you can't really get away from your SELF. I mean, you have to be you, you're kind of stuck with you even when you don't feel like being you.

And from the outside lots of other people like you and want to be your friend. You seem to fit in socially and adapt and have everyone fooled into thinking you know how to be you. But you don't want to be your friend.

What do you do when you just don't like yourself? Fucking self-esteem.

I mean, it seems the obvious answer...is change the things you don't like about your self. But I get the feeling that no matter what I do, achieve, create in this world, I will never really like me. Even if I've achieved all my goals and am completely neurosis-free, it seems like I STILL would not truly feel valid.

Yet if I was to see anyone else who has success and has achieved all of the same goals I've set for myself, I would probably secretly envy them. Just not me.

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i'm just arrogant enough to get by lol. i decided a while back to either like everything about myself or force myself to change it. there are some things i drive myself nuts with, and so i'm trying to force them to change, but if all else fails, i just decide to like it hehehe.

i've been told ego is what gets you through when self esteem fails you.

i have lots and lots of ego. and oddly enough, i'm starting to get self esteem.

now my problem is accepting esteem outside of myself...

that is, i think i'm great but i assume no one else will agree with me because they are all idiots. i've found some people who are smart enough to really like me (there's that arrogance again) but my assumption is that i'm hated. so what is that called? it's not self esteem because i think if they were smart enough people, they WOULD like me, because i'm just that cool. so is it outside esteem? others esteem?

anyway.... validity is another kettle of fish altogether....

i know that i am not real in other peoples' worlds because the me they see is not the me i know to be myself and therefore they like some image of me, and not me at all, so i don't really exist to them, only my image does that exists in their head.

now if that made sense to you, i'm either impressed or worried.

so i don't feel valid much at all.

my nate makes me feel valid and real because the me he sees is the me i see, so it matches, so we both agree on what i am. therefore, i have enough consistency to exist.

i exist in my world, but my world doesn't exist in the outside world, so while it validates me to myself, it doesn't validate me to reality and so reality still attacks me.

abi

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i know that i am not real in other peoples' worlds because the me they see is not the me i know to be myself and therefore they like some image of me, and not me at all, so i don't really exist to them, only my image does that exists in their head.

now if that made sense to you, i'm either impressed or worried.

That makes total sense. It is amazing how many versions of the self there are. Within humanity and within ourselves.

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First figure out why you can't stand those things. It seems like it would be a lot harder to change those things without accepting them as part of yourself. The way you speak of it, with yourself as the other, makes it sound like self-acceptance is not the direction you've been going.

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In a world grown paralyzed with introspection and constipated by delicate mental meals this brutal exposure of the substantial body comes as a vitalizing current of blood. The violence and obscenity are left unadulterated, and manifestation of the mystery and pain which ever accompanies the act of creation... If there is here revealead a capacity to shock, to startle the lifeless ones from their profound slumber, let us congratulate ourselves; for the tragedy of our world is precisely that nothing any longer is capable of rousing it from its lethargy. In the anesthesia produced by slef-knowledge, life is passing, art is passing, slipping from us: we are drifting with time and our fight is with shadows. We need a blood transfusion.

--Anais Nin, Preface to Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancerir?t=crazyboards05-20&l=ur2&o=1

I'm not saying go run out and read this book. More that it made me think.

If all we have is ourselves, our minds, our lives, our loneliness... then we need to feel it. All of it. Wake up.

I will change my mind in the morning. For now I think we need to indulge in hedonism when we get the chance, and even give in to the pain and feel it when it comes.

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If ultimately in an existential sense we are all alone.

What does one do if you cannot stand yourself?

I once paused to wonder what it would be like to meet myself.

I concluded I wouldn't like me, I wouldn't find myself interesting or even a nice person.

I mean, if there is a person that is annoying to you, you have the free will to remove yourself from their presence or at least avoid them at all costs.

But you can't really get away from your SELF. I mean, you have to be you, you're kind of stuck with you even when you don't feel like being you.

...mantra runs through my head.... I hate the world, I hate everything and everybody, myself most of all...

I mean, it seems the obvious answer...is change the things you don't like about your self. But I get the feeling that no matter what I do, achieve, create in this world, I will never really like me. Even if I've achieved all my goals and am completely neurosis-free, it seems like I STILL would not truly feel valid.

Yet if I was to see anyone else who has success and has achieved all of the same goals I've set for myself, I would probably secretly envy them. Just not me.

In no Law of Physics is it writ that you need to like yourself, like the world or like any other. The world carries on spinning whether you do or don't. Your heart carries on beating, you cannot even hold your breath and stop breathing no matter how much you detest yourself.

So live anyway, live despite or in spite of yourself and despite or in spite the sods around you. Grab some small corners of fun as they go by. It is sort of liberating.

The world doesn't owe you a living, you don't owe the world a life. You didn't ask to be born, you didn't ask for your heart to keep beating. All this happens without your permission. You are press ganged into life. Press ganged into occupational therapy twixt birth and death. Existence has voided your choices and made you live, so you are now free from obligation. Free from obligation to live. Free from obligation to die.

Existence has made you fundamentally and irremedably imperfect, so you are free from all and any requirement to be perfect. So live imperfectly and live and or die for yourself.

If you can make someone else happy along the way, that tends to be a fairly effective way of making yourself happy. So do that. If you can't. Don't. Get on with something else. Liking yourself is overrated and underachieved.

Ignore the problem and it goes away.

Some problems get bigger if you don't handle them, others shrink. Do what you can about the things you can, ignore the rest. Just get on with whatever you would like, in a fairly long sighted view, to do next..

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In the words of Pink:

Don't let me get me

I'm my own worst enemy

Its bad when you annoy yourself

So irritating

Don't wanna be my friend no more

I wanna be somebody else

Doctor, doctor won't you please prescribe

somethin

A day in the life of someone else?

Cuz I'm a hazard to myself

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In no Law of Physics is it writ that you need to like yourself, like the world or like any other. The world carries on spinning whether you do or don't. Your heart carries on beating, you cannot even hold your breath and stop breathing no matter how much you detest yourself.

So live anyway, live despite or in spite of yourself and despite or in spite the sods around you. Grab some small corners of fun as they go by. It is sort of liberating.

The world doesn't owe you a living, you don't owe the world a life. You didn't ask to be born, you didn't ask for your heart to keep beating. All this happens without your permission. You are press ganged into life. Press ganged into occupational therapy twixt birth and death. Existence has voided your choices and made you live, so you are now free from obligation. Free from obligation to live. Free from obligation to die.

This is beautiful. I really needed to read that, thanks.

I'm not saying go run out and read this book. More that it made me think.

If all we have is ourselves, our minds, our lives, our loneliness... then we need to feel it. All of it. Wake up.

I trust your judgment in literature and got a copy on www.half.com for like $3. It resonated, and I need something to read not related to psychology.

You all are great. I am thankful for CB.

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I trust your judgment in literature and got a copy on www.half.com for like $3. It resonated, and I need something to read not related to psychology.

You all are great. I am thankful for CB.

ok, but it is REALLY dirty. even i blush. it's obvious why it was one of the 3 books in the last real censorship case.

but it does, indeed, snap you out of wherever you are.

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It strikes me that you are making love and acceptance of yourself very conditional - 'if I make/do/become/act like this THEN I could like me and everyone elses esteem of me would be justified.' I have found that sometimes it is better to sit with yourself as you are, like you can sit with an itch that irritates, and just sit with it until your initial anger and hatred starts to soften, and it turns into something mellower, like compassion.

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Karuna you hit the nail on the head.

I need to cultivate compassion for myself.

I work with the homeless population and women in recovery and my compassion and empathy, I can feel it growing even during a major depressive episode and it is genuine.

But in no way, shape, or form can I feel that compassion for myself. I'm stuck.

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Karuna you hit the nail on the head.

I need to cultivate compassion for myself.

I work with the homeless population and women in recovery and my compassion and empathy, I can feel it growing even during a major depressive episode and it is genuine.

But in no way, shape, or form can I feel that compassion for myself. I'm stuck.

karuna, you are one insightful person!!

i had to give up on making anything about me "likeable" and just like myself before i could get any further...

you aren't stuck just because you can't poof have compassion. maybe you can start with just changing the way you phrase things to yourself. instead of thinking "gar i'm so stupid" you can think "that was stupid of me". all those communication tips they tell you for not hurting friends when you are upset work well towards yourself.

if you wouldn't tell a child "you're an idiot for doing that", you shouldn't tell yourself that either. that's my hardest thing. remembering to scold myself nicely lol. "that wasn't the brightest way to go about that. next time i'll do this instead..."

so i guess i'm suggesting treating yourself as you would treat a beloved child and go from there ;)

abi

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i know that i am not real in other peoples' worlds because the me they see is not the me i know to be myself and therefore they like some image of me, and not me at all, so i don't really exist to them, only my image does that exists in their head.
Yes. My "self" is not the same as Wende. Wende is the outward persona that pretends a lot and tries to act cool & confident, and make people like her, but is really an irresponsible goober... My "self" is actually much more desirable, centered, smart and cool. I just can't express it or others don't understand, which of course makes me feel like crap about Wende. Wende sucks. I am really cool. Atman/brahman, id/ego, isn't this similar? I think I got it from a mixture of my understanding of eastern thought.

my nate makes me feel valid and real because the me he sees is the me i see, so it matches, so we both agree on what i am. therefore, i have enough consistency to exist.
This is what I am looking for. Someone who sees me as I am plus how I am and loves me anyway. This is probably my problem w/ meeting people.

i exist in my world, but my world doesn't exist in the outside world, so while it validates me to myself, it doesn't validate me to reality and so reality still attacks me.
Fabulous.

I wish I could sit here and agree with everything everyone has said and give insightful additions but I am not really good at philosophizingf or putting thoughts into words. But this thread rocks.

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Sandune - Did you write the following yourself? If u did u are a genius!! If not, can u tell me where u found it?

In no Law of Physics is it writ that you need to like yourself, like the world or like any other. The world carries on spinning whether you do or don't. Your heart carries on beating, you cannot even hold your breath and stop breathing no matter how much you detest yourself.

So live anyway, live despite or in spite of yourself and despite or in spite the sods around you. Grab some small corners of fun as they go by. It is sort of liberating.

The world doesn't owe you a living, you don't owe the world a life. You didn't ask to be born, you didn't ask for your heart to keep beating. All this happens without your permission. You are press ganged into life. Press ganged into occupational therapy twixt birth and death. Existence has voided your choices and made you live, so you are now free from obligation. Free from obligation to live. Free from obligation to die.

Existence has made you fundamentally and irremedably imperfect, so you are free from all and any requirement to be perfect. So live imperfectly and live and or die for yourself.

If you can make someone else happy along the way, that tends to be a fairly effective way of making yourself happy. So do that. If you can't. Don't. Get on with something else. Liking yourself is overrated and underachieved.

Ignore the problem and it goes away.

Some problems get bigger if you don't handle them, others shrink. Do what you can about the things you can, ignore the rest. Just get on with whatever you would like, in a fairly long sighted view, to do next..

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Sandune - Did you write the following yourself? If u did u are a genius!! If not, can u tell me where u found it?

The short answer is yes, I wrote it.

The long answer is bits of it I have written elsewhere, bits I have picked up elsewhen along the years of depression. eg. "occupational therapy twixt birth and death" is a quote from Spike Milligan the Bipolar Soul behind the Goon Show.

"The world doesn't owe you a living","and the world carries on" is my super practical Mother talking, but it took me decades to work out the converse.

Some of the ideas have been expressed (better) by Dorothy Parker .

She should be declared Crazyboards patron, umm, no saint definitely isn't quite the word I'm looking for... She wouldn't like that. Guiding Spirit?

Anyway here is a site (not anything to do with me) that gives you the bitter taste of her if you haven't had a sip before...

http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/parker.htm

Partly it's a plain burst of logic riding on a tide of anger. Anger at my misery and self hatred, anger at TheMind's misery (not anger at TheMind) but anger at the trap of fallacious logic that society has built around us.

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This is why at the core, all religions try to show us how to "die to our Self"-- to give up on the false notion of self and recognize that we are a manefestation of pure love. It may not be "true" in an absolute sense but it does offer peace of mind and enhances our ability to focus on giving rather than self absorbtion, which IMO is really what not liking self is.

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i like what you just said about dying to the self, and being a new self, as is taught in many influential religions. there is a reason why many religions teach some form of repemption from the worst in ourselves- we can hang on to our beliefs (no judging of any belief system is going on here), and have hope of becoming anew.

i know i found my repemption from self-hatred a different way, and i don't know if i can even express it. when i found my dad dead on the floor with his crazy med bottles all around him and the ccats on him licking him, i died. i died to myself. i wasn't "me" anymore. suddenly, i was in charge, i was the one who had to be strong, i was the one who had to kick ass, at 24. i don't know if it was just the pressure and trauma taking my mind off of hating myself or what, but i was new through that process. i've never considered suicide as a serious option since. i've never hated myself since. sure, there are days when i'm not happy with myself, but not to that point. i died to myself as much as i died with him.

and i don't know if everyone reacts that way. i think we all react differently to different things. i just think that this world is so hard on us- we can't help but look at these supposedly perfect people and wish we were that great, and hate ourselves for not being there.

i think that in the end, it comes down to breaking those barriers to seeing yourself as you are. if you're really a jerk, realize it and change it. but i don't think you're a jerk. you're just someone trying to find their way in the world. die to yourself in a way. let your hate go. i know it is easier said than done, but i hope it helps. and i hope i've made sense, and answered your question in some way.

no, we cannot "escape" ourselves, but we can die in ourselves and create a new image of ourselves in our own minds.

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Loon, beautiful words. I get what you are saying.

Stew: Yes. I really think this is self absorption. I'm by no means narcissistic, since I don't like myself, yet I do spend alot of time introspecting on how I'm an awful waste of space.

I think sometimes, in order for us to change something drastic has to happen (like death) or we have to hit rock bottom in some way to wake up and realize what we are doing is not working. Change seems much more difficult when all is smooth sailing.

I have this book called "Transforming Depression" by David Rosen. And his concept of suicidal ideation is that the ego is attempting to kill of parts of the self that are no longer working. It's not that the "self" wants the body to die, just parts of the mind need to die.

"Egocide" is the term he coined.

I really like that idea.

I just forget that when I'm in the midst of the abyss.

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