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Involuntary Commitment and Drug Therapy Refusal / Insurance Questions


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Hello all, I have a purely academic question I'm hoping with which you can assist me. I read that 5/6 of termination attempts are unsuccesful. If a person attempted self-termination, but due to inexperience fell into the 5/6 of the unsuccesful, and were subsequently involuntarily committed and the insurance for the person in question did not cover mental health, would the individual be billed anyway? Also, in the event someone is involuntarily committed, do they retain the right to refuse psychotropic drugs if they object to them for philosophical reasons or does commitment abjure all rights to self-care?

Many thanks in advance for any insight available.

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Hi Aklan,

We here on CB are happy to do what we can to help you get adequate care for your problems. But our purpose is not to help people tie up loose ends so that they can go kill themselves. We support people in seeking treatment that will lead to improved mental health.

Please consider posting to talk about some of what's going on with you - mental illness, family problems, work situations, current and past treatment, whatever is useful to talk about.

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We would be glad to talk about all the issue surrounding this situation. Why you would want to refuse medication. What things in your life have driven you to feel that you can't handle them anymore.

Give us a try.

a.m.

[edit] Your numbers are way off. According to one crisis center, in 1999 in the US, there were 25 suicide attempts for 1 completion. There is a big likelyhood of surviving with physical injury, not to mention the psychological impact.

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Thanks so much for your fast and obviously well-meaning responses! My question was not a "cry for help" and I'm fully in control of the situation, I would just like to be better informed on the subject. To even consider embarking on such an adventure has the very real and likely possibility of causing great psychological distress to family and friends and I don't think it's unreasoanable or irrational to want to have a full accounting of facts and methods by which this distress can be mitigated or at least controlled. That said, I am nowhere near this point for a variety of reasons, religious and otherwise, and I very much do not wants to distress anyone on this board that I'm "on the edge", in the "final countdown", or seeking immediate advice for imminent action. I'm 29, I've had a problem for about 3 years, which means there have been 26 that it hasn't been present and I've made the conscious decision to give myself a full six additional years to let it resolve itself. So, as you can see, I'm hardly in a "dire" strait; I'm simply seeking additional information and have reached a block in what my own research has allowed me to discover.

> Why you would want to refuse medication?

I'm sorry in advance, I don't mean to stir this into a debate, especially as these seem to be rather sedate boards. However, to be quite honest, I can't imagine why anyone who has done the background study one would expect to do before ingesting chemicals would want to accept a pharmocological intervention into a problem of the mind? Reading Dr. Kaczynski's "Industrial Society and Its Future" made me fully aware of the root problems and cause/effect of chemical solutions but there's certainly no shortage of opinions to support it. My personal opinion would be that one should not take these drugs for any reason, physician prescribed or otherwise, and anyone would be morally justified in resisting with maximum violence any attempt at administering them. I appreciate, however, that there are differences of opinion on this very sensitive topic but hope others can respect my opinion as I would respect their opinion.

Thanks again and warmest regards --

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Let me apologize. I very obviously came to the wrong boards and did not "browse around" before posting. After my last message I did, in fact, do that, and clearly I need to be elsewhere.

The idea that people here so proudly post their laundry lists of drug mixtures in their .sig files is nothing if not totally repugnant. I'm sorry I can't be as sympathetic and accepting as I'm certain most of you are accustomed.

All components of the personality, good and bad, are immutable parts of the psyche and the human experience and to chemically suppress any of them is a dehumanizing act. Unconventional experiences of reality, such as disembodied voices or whatever, are as real as anything experienced by the "majority" in their monolithic tranquility.

Don't bother suggesting that I "don't know what it's like" or what you have to deal with, I assure you I do if not more so as I refuse the false hope of psychopharmacology. If the only way to continue living is to abjure your humanity and become a chemical android, then life is not worth living. There's nothing intriniscally wrong with that and nothing to be ashamed of; people have sacrificed themselves for less and more - "give me liberty of give me death" (Patrick Henry). Only the monolithically tranquil "majority" tries to schill the idea that you/we have a problem.

Thanks for your attention during my brief visit here and best of luck to you all. I've taken the time to write this farewell message in the genuine and sincere hope it can reach and help at least one of you. Warmest regards --

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I get it. I really do.

I find the concept of eyeglasses wholly degrading. I see my humiliated bespectacled face in the mirror and want to gouge my eyes out. I might as well just snuff it rather than wear them.

If you're not coming back, do you mind if I change your username to Darwin Award?

While I actually have pro-choice leanings on the euthanasia issue for people who have exhausted all possible means for recovery, you obviously have not.

We're here to help each other live.

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Anyone catch that insightful reference? Anyone?

Dr. Kaczynski's "Industrial Society and Its Future"

That's Theodore (Ted Unabomber) Kaczynski. A brilliant psychologist. NOT.

BTW, we are in the post industrial age. Time to find a better book to live by.

a.m.

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You're quite good at apparently trying to be polite (bullshit) and insulting our intelligence at the same time.

Yet, I'm with you. You find your way (I shake my head) and I'll stick with mine. So sad.

I'm sorry you feel the need to initiate a personal attack. I think you are a wonderful person and I understand that denigration of the opinions of others may simply be a coping mechanism and do not, in any way, hold this against you.

I regret you choose not to empower yourself as an active participant in your own care and select, instead, the somewhat easier route of chemical vivisection and "coping with a pill" but I respect your right to do so.

That's Theodore (Ted Unabomber) Kaczynski. A brilliant psychologist. NOT.

AM - I regret that you choose not to empower yourself with a more open mind to controversial opinions and subject matter. This diagnosis of the problems of industrial society (the term "industrial" in this usage is not a social term, it is an economic one, so maintains viability) is shared by many others who might be considered controversial, including Julius Evola and Dr. Thomas Szasz, but also a great mass of "mainstream" academics including Freud (ref.: "Civilization and its Discontents"), Dr. Peter Breggin (a board-certified psychiatrist / MD who hasn't prescribed a single psychotropic drug in 40 years of practice) and his 600+ anti-psychotropic MDs in the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology who correctly reject the myth of chemical imbalance as a cause of mental disorder and other legends and tall tales like the ADHD myth.

However, I appreciate that chemical dependence on psychotropics makes one a passionate defender of them as does dependence on any drug cocktail (i.e. heroin, cocaine, etc.), so respect your opinion.

Warmest Regards --

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You've got to wonder what kind of a support board he thought he was on. There can't be that many "support" boards where the mods assist their members in deciding whether suicide is a good idea based on whether a member would have to pay money if he/she failed to kill themselves.

I like the "Darwin Award" idea, although I may be being a tad un-sedate there.

btw, Kaczynski did go to math grad school, and the math department's at his school is in the same building as the psychology department...and those are better psych-related credentials than a lot of the people who anti-psychiatrists cite have...

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Aklan,

I agree there is no need for personal attacks.

I hope that you will come to understand that medicine and talk therapy can make your life not only survivable beyond 6 years, but a long and happier life than you have had these last three years.

Yes, there are side effects from the meds, but they in no way subtract from my humanity.

My meds and therapy have interrupted much of the natural course of my illness, but that isn't a bad thing. We don't leave people smashed and bleeding in car wrecks to deal with their own problems.

I assure you that if it were possible to think ourselves well, we would. Mankind would have done so long ago.

Just as we gratefully accept the gifts from medical science of insulin, penicillin, so does lithium, prozac and risperdal. They all save lives, and improve their quality.

regards, a.m.

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I sense that the catchphrase "I regret that you choose not to empower yourself" is going to start being used rather frequently, to great amusement, around here.

I would ordinarily analyze the passive-aggression going on (he insults people, then when they respond he accuses them of starting it) but it's so blatant I don't see I'd need bother.

I'd better head for bed now. He's breaking the Terms of Service by being a jerk, but as long as he's still a good show I don't see a need to do anything about it yet.

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Aklan,

I agree there is no need for personal attacks.

I hope that you will come to understand that medicine and talk therapy can make your life not only survivable beyond 6 years, but a long and happier life than you have had these last three years.

Yes, there are side effects from the meds, but they in no way subtract from my humanity.

My meds and therapy have interrupted much of the natural course of my illness, but that isn't a bad thing. We don't leave people smashed and bleeding in car wrecks to deal with their own problems.

I assure you that if it were possible to think ourselves well, we would. Mankind would have done so long ago.

Just as we gratefully accept the gifts from medical science of insulin, penicillin, so does lithium, prozac and risperdal. They all save lives, and improve their quality.

regards, a.m.

AM, thanks so much for your much more sedate and human reply. I appreciate and empathize that your mind is not your own, that it is now a vessel jointly piloted by you and the directors and shareholders of the Pfizer Corporation. I strongly beg you to reconsider this wreckless course down which you have pointed yourself. We do not want to lose another mind! Please reconsider self-destruction; what you are doing to yourself is just a more socially tolerated form of getting soused with a bottle of Jack Daniels that passed for positive mental health a hundred years ago.

As we have become more enlightened and rejected the other crimes of psychiatry, from lobotomy to Psikhushka, so to should we reject psychotropic drugging of "problem" members of society.

www.mindfreedom.org

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I sense that the catchphrase "I regret that you choose not to empower yourself" is going to start being used rather frequently, to great amusement, around here.

I would ordinarily analyze the passive-aggression going on (he insults people, then when they respond he accuses them of starting it) but it's so blatant I don't see I'd need bother.

I'd better head for bed now. He's breaking the Terms of Service by being a jerk, but as long as he's still a good show I don't see a need to do anything about it yet.

Hello Resonance. You've been doing a lot of talking but no one is responding. To whom are you speaking? (I just want to make sure my browser is working correctly in case there's a difficulty.)

Warmest --

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Thanks Resonance!!! I don't think this particular topic needs further clarification. (by me anyway)

Aklan, I think I was telling the truth. I am sorry that I could not find the words to express the truth in a way that you would not feel personally attacked. I thought that you were not coming back. I am truly sorry if I offended you. I sincerely apologize. Can you please forgive me? (no response needed)

Yes, I am a wonderful person. But when I hear you say that, I feel patronized because you don't know me at all.

I sincerely hope that you find your way to health and happiness. Take care.

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...Please reconsider self-destruction; what you are doing to yourself is just a more socially tolerated form of getting soused with a bottle of Jack Daniels that passed for positive mental health a hundred years ago.

As we have become more enlightened and rejected the other crimes of psychiatry, from lobotomy to Psikhushka, so to should we reject psychotropic drugging of "problem" members of society.

Aklan,

Perhaps your flavor of mental illness is rather mild, and perhaps you have not been exposed to agonies and travails of others seeking to regain stability.

I managed to make a rather successful way thru life without any psych intervention until I was 43, when my bipolar disorder became overwhelming. I have tried a number of medications over the last three years, and, yes, have even quit them a number of times. I know precisely why I'm taking each med and how each of them makes me feel. I am not some complacent dolt who is happy to be drugged into a stupor (and damned few people are).

Since my schooling in the 1970's I've seen the improvements in psychiatry and pharmacology. Fully half of the meds now available did not exist when I was in college. Likewise the improvement in therapy has been broad and refreshing.

It's easy for those who are not experienced with modern practices to hold ideas influenced by The Snake Pit, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, lobotomies and ECT circa 1940's. But reality is far from those ancient stereotypes.

I know that without my meds there is at least a 25% chance I'd be dead by my own hand. My meds allow me to do such amazing feats as bathe and feed myself, and much more! I hear that much of your objection is the side effects of meds. The good news is that many of the meds introduced in the last ten years have greatly reduced side effects from their predecessors, and further NIMH and other researchers are hot on the trail of even more specifically targeted meds that will have fewer side effects.

a.m.

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Aklan,

Perhaps your flavor of mental illness is rather mild, and perhaps you have not been exposed to agonies and travails of others seeking to regain stability.

That's a good question, I'm not sure as I don't have anything to juxtapose it against, however, I #1, would not characterize it as an illness; it is a special challenge and #2, it is not of the variety at least of the attention seekers and thrill mongers who wear the potency of the massive psychotropic cocktails under whose influence they are steered like a badge of special attainment or recognition, the only way they can identify themselves as somehow unique; the goths, hysterical housewives, angst-ridden teenagers and so forth.

However, if what you mean by that is, have I been exposed to the utter pits of despair, the sudden and unshakable belief that existence itself is automotonic, that I have been placed in a 4 meter by 1 meter plastic capsule and hurled into the depths of space while simultaneously afflicted with complete immortality in such way that even death might not ever be a hope of relief; a capsule so small that it permits no movement or motion in any direction and around which it is surrounded by nothing but black, no communication with any person or thing, the realization that by an unknown accident of my own creation I must spend 10,000 years floating in a sea of blackness in a universe in which no other living thing exists followed by an immediate end that effects the cessation of consciousness, with no afterlife, then, yes.

I am not some complacent dolt who is happy to be drugged into a stupor

I think we'll have to politely agree to disagree on this point. But, our diversity of opinion is one of the wonderful things about our marketplace of ideas! Don't you agree? I'm sure you do.

I think I was telling the truth. I am sorry that I could not find the words to express the truth in a way that you would not feel personally attacked.

Your apology is warmly accepted. Sometimes if one can't find the words for something, one would be best advised not to use words at all. Don't you agree? I'm sure you do.

Yes, I am a wonderful person. But when I hear you say that, I feel patronized because you don't know me at all.

Sunshine, I'm afraid that's a YP, not a MP.

I sense that the catchphrase "I regret that you choose not to empower yourself" is going to start being used rather frequently, to great amusement, around here.

Resonance, I appreciate and empathize with your defensiveness. This is not an uncommon reaction from - excuse the "street lingo" - a druggie wanting to protect his dealers. Addiction is a hard cycle to break and often provokes many regrettable reactions from those confronted with their problem. Rest assured, however, I do not place any stock or respect in the opinions of the chemical androids. I understand your mind is not your own and will not hold anything you say against you as I recognize it is not you talking. You are a valuable and important component in the fabric of society, friend.

Warmest Regards --

DX: reject "diagnosis"

RX: none (proudly)

Link: mindfreedom.org - Unite to Defend Against Psychiatric Human Rights Violations

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I've not used this in years.

Dear:

[ x] Clueless Twit [x] Lamer [x] Flamer

[ ] "Me too"-er [ ] Pervert [ ] Geek

[ ] Spammer [ ] Racist [ ] Fed

[x] "Expert" [x] Freak [x] Troller

[ ] Fundamentalist [ ] Satanist [ ] Net.cop

You Are Being Flamed Because:

[x] You obviously don't know anything about the topic at hand

[ ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup

[ ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply

[x] You started a long, stupid thread

[x] You continued spreading a long stupid thread

[x] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it

[x] Your lack of understanding of the fundamentals is disgusting

[ ] You posted a followup to crossposted robot-generated spam

[ ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test

[ x] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message

[ ] You posted low-IQ flamebait

[x ] You posted a blatently obvious troll

[ ] You followed up to a blatently obvious troll

[ ] You said "X rules, Y sucks" and gave no support for your lame

statement

[ ] You said "me too" to something

[x] You make no sense

[x] You made a post yet failed to say anything

[ ] Your sig/alias is dreadful

[ ] You posted a phone-sex ad

[ ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme

[ ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal

[ ] You are claiming that you know more than Newton, Ohm, Pavlov,

et al.

[ ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable

[x] You made a baseless assertion

[ ] You posted SCREAMING in RANDOM CAPS (OR IN ALL CAPS) for NO

APPARENT REASON

[ ] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally

worthless that you are being flamed anyway

To Repent, You Must:

[x] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what you're doing

[x] Stop masturbating for a week

[ ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week

[ ] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month

[x] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it

[x] Tell your Mommy to up your medication

[x] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor (monitor must

be plugged in)

[ ] Actually post something relevant

[x] Read and memorize the FAQ

[ ] Post to alt.test

[x] Print your home phone number in your ads

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[x] Get a clue

[x] Get a life

[x] Go away

[ ] Grow up

[x] Never post again

[ ] I pity your dog

[x] You need to seek psychiatric help

[ ] Morons like you give ammo to pro-censorship geeks

[ ] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc...

[x] Take your gibberish somewhere else

[x] Go back to school and actually learn something

[ ] Learn how to post or get off the usenet

[ ] All of the above

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