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The list below is my combo...While I'm not a doctor, some supplements do better than take the place of certain medications. Consult an open minded doctor when considering the list below (listed in order of importance for me):

1. Lamictal 600mg (Daily)

2. Lithium Orotate 135mg-150mg (Daily/Dose Varies)

3. Inositol 2g to 4g (Daily/Dose Varies)

4. GABA 1g to 2g (Daily/Dose Varies)

5. Desoxyn 5mg (Daily/Will Likely Increase)

6. Seroquel 50mg-200mg (PRN/Dose Varies)

7. Ativan 1mg (PRN)

3. and 4. have been real life savers, with 3. being the one I found out about most recently. It really has filled the gap between 1. and 2. After 4., I have never had to take Risperdal again. Ever.

Food for thought. Discuss...or not.

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some supplements do better than take the place of certain medications

Are you suggesting lithium orotate is in some way superior to lithium carbonate or lithium citrate?

After #6, if you are taking 200 mg+ regularly, you shouldn't need Risperdal, at least not for psychosis. Seems like there's the possibility of trimming your substance list further.

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Ok, I'll take the bait... How did you end up taking Lithium-Orotate, Inositol and Gaba and what do you think they do for you?

a.m.

Lithium-orotate is a type of Lithium. Lithium-orotate is Lithium bound to orotic acid which makes it Lithium B13. Proportionally speaking, less Lithium B13 is required to cross the blood brain barrier than Lithium Carbonate or Lithium Citrate. This means a lower dose, and fewer side effects. Don't get me wrong, it is no panacea; but the Carbonate and Citrate cannot safely do what it can safely do. If your body were capable of tolerating high doses of Carbonate and Citrate, yes, you could reach the same point, but why would you want to even if you could?

Inositol is commonly found in B vitamin complexes.

GABA is Gamma aminobutyric acid, and it can be grown in plants as well as synthesized.

The Lithium and Lamictal are a synergistic combination, high doses of Inositol are for depression/anxiety, and GABA is a growth hormone with various properties.

I couldn't live without the combination of Lithium B13 and Lamictal. These two made life bearable. However, without Inositol, I was stuck mood wise, and consequently, life wise. Inositol finished the job that Lithium and Lamictal started. GABA has prevented me totally from entering a dystopic rage state, and I'm now rarely angry at all.

I first found out about Lithium B13 from a friend, next through the internet, and finally through a research project (I am not sure if it has been completed yet). I had to go through a number of manufacturers before I found one that produced a high quality form of Lithium B13. Inositol and GABA have been widespread knowledge in terms of what they do for the brain. Even Dr. Amen holds these views about Inositol and GABA in his books; in fact, he actually sells formulations containing them in his online store.

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Lithium-orotate is a type of Lithium.

No. It is a lithium compound.

Lithium-orotate is Lithium bound to orotic acid which makes it Lithium B13.

Again, no. Orotic acid is not a vitamin, no matter how many website testimonials tell you otherwise.

Proportionally speaking, less Lithium B13 is required to cross the blood brain barrier than Lithium Carbonate or Lithium Citrate. This means a lower dose, and fewer side effects.

Again, no.

It is the lithium ion, which stopped being attached to the carboxylic acid group shortly after arriving in your stomach, that does all of the work in your brain. The carbonate and citrate also dissociate upon contact with stomach acid, the main difference being that the carbonate ion itself isn't so stable in acid solutions.

Also, 10 mg of lithium orotate will actually contain fewer lithium atoms than 10 mg of lithium citrate or lithium carbonate. Unless there's a far higher bioavailability for the orotate (decent chance with the carbonate, rotten chance with the citrate) there's no significant benefit.

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Lithium orotate does have toxicity potential, by the way, and should be monitored in the same way that lithium carbonate and lithium citrate are. Serum lithium, renal function, electrolytes, thyroid function, etc.

Ditto for potential for interactions.

I find nothing that convinces me that there is a substantial increase in bioavailability in the orotate version. Rat brain studies in the late 70s are as good as it gets. Schou (yes, that Schou) has an interesting rebuttal article, and Smith has an investigation article.

I'm not considering higher serum level secondary to lowered GFR/clearance as a good sign.

It would be nice if there were published articles <30yo.

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Lithium orotate does have [link=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18072162?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" target="_blank]toxicity potential[/link], by the way, and should be monitored in the same way that lithium carbonate and lithium citrate are. Serum lithium, renal function, electrolytes, thyroid function, etc.

Ditto for potential for interactions.

I didn't deny that fact.

I find nothing that convinces me that there is a substantial increase in bioavailability in the orotate version. [link=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26768?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel

.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed" target="_blank]Rat brain studies[/link] in the late 70s are as good as it gets. Schou (yes, that Schou) has an [link=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/34690?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel

.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed" target="_blank]interesting rebuttal article[/link], and Smith has an [link=http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=1260219" target="_blank]investigation article.

[/link]I'm not considering higher serum level secondary to lowered GFR/clearance as a good sign.

It would be nice if there were published articles <30yo.

After they killed the rats and sent the alcoholics home, no significant research has been done. Was this a deliberate attempt to scare people by giving rats almost 2g of LO while giving people doses of LO in the .1g to .2g range when they knew the rat's dose range was likely fatal, perhaps even to humans? What is the logical inconsistency here?

You can find the research study here if you would like to read more about it.

Edit: Added research study link.

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I didn't deny that fact.
Nor did I say you did.

But the implication that lithium orotate is 'safer' needs to be addressed, or at least tempered with a recognition of the risks. If no one is rxing the substance and monitoring TSH, renal, level, etc., then there are some unpleasant realities to be considered.

Apparently your doc monitors these labs appropriately. Good for you two.

After they killed the rats and sent the alcoholics home
Whoops! I mentally transposed this for a minute. That woke me up.

I need coffee before I come back to this.

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I didn't deny that fact.
Nor did I say you did.

But the implication that lithium orotate is 'safer' needs to be addressed, or at least tempered with a recognition of the risks. If no one is rxing the substance and monitoring TSH, renal, level, etc., then there are some unpleasant realities to be considered.

Apparently your doc monitors these labs appropriately. Good for you two.

After they killed the rats and sent the alcoholics home
Whoops! I mentally transposed this for a minute. That woke me up.

I need coffee before I come back to this.

Yeah, I've had two doctors run these type of tests and neither found any problem. In fact, I've had so many blood tests last year and before that, considering their almost identical and healthy outcome, I don't feel more are necessary for awhile. One psychiatrist I saw for a short period of time was not opposed, and neither was another doctor I had, while my current psychiatrist I started seeing again had been previously opposed to it. Having seen for himself the benefit it has provided for me, he has softened his resistance to it, and is willing to carry on normally with treatment as that being part of it.

I have plenty of coffee, some of the best out there. If you want to know where I go, send a PM. I don't post advertising links on forums, not just because it is inappropriate for various reasons, but also because I don't let the same happen on my sites. It is also a bitch to clean up. Without the SQL Toolbox to kill it all with a few queries, I'd be too impatient to deal with it.

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It would be nice if there were published articles <30yo.

No money in it, as the orotate is probably more expensive to manufacture. Lithium carbonate, on the other hand, is produced more on an industrial scale, for other uses.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The list below is my combo...While I'm not a doctor, some supplements do better than take the place of certain medications. Consult an open minded doctor when considering the list below (listed in order of importance for me):

1. Lamictal 600mg (Daily)

2. Lithium Orotate 135mg-150mg (Daily/Dose Varies)

3. Inositol 2g to 4g (Daily/Dose Varies)

4. GABA 1g to 2g (Daily/Dose Varies)

5. Desoxyn 5mg (Daily/Will Likely Increase)

6. Seroquel 50mg-200mg (PRN/Dose Varies)

7. Ativan 1mg (PRN)

3. and 4. have been real life savers, with 3. being the one I found out about most recently. It really has filled the gap between 1. and 2. After 4., I have never had to take Risperdal again. Ever.

Food for thought. Discuss...or not.

First of all, hi.

I know that you said in later posts that you had your Lithium levels checked for well over a year but it looks like you are on a lot of medication. I mean, a lot. The Seroquel (which I am personally not a fan of, but I don't have to take it anymore) should take care of any anxiety issues, therefore eliminating the Ativan which isn't even at a theraputic level. I too am on the Lithium/Lamictal combo which works great for me in the winter and sucks during the summer. I don't need the Lithium and it has been replaced by Geodon. I too have a GABA insufficiency (believed) and that is rectified by the Lamcital and Geodon. I guess my question is: do you question your pdoc about the amount of medication you are taking during the day and does it bother you? If I were on seven different meds (and the Lithium, Seroquel and Ativan at such low dosages) I would probably be wondering why they were even on board... IMO.

But what do I know?

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If I were on seven different meds (and the Lithium, Seroquel and Ativan at such low dosages) I would probably be wondering why they were even on board... IMO.

But what do I know?

Wait but you are on five for psychiatric reasons [maybe six for that reason?] is there really that large of a difference once you get past like three or four?

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If I were on seven different meds (and the Lithium, Seroquel and Ativan at such low dosages) I would probably be wondering why they were even on board... IMO.

But what do I know?

Wait but you are on five for psychiatric reasons [maybe six for that reason?] is there really that large of a difference once you get past like three or four?

As I have stated in my own personal post about my meds (that you read), I am tapering off of Lithium and Valium (the Valium only for sleep reasons and for counteracting a side effect of Lithium). I was no longer really suffering from anxiety itself, but more from the physical manifestation that had presented itself after 28 years of experiencing panic/anxiety attacks. The Propranolol stopped the physical side of the anxiety therefore, stopping the anxiety from happening. It's kind of like putting your wrench in wheel, it stops cycling. I have done more spiritual and psychological work than any drug therapy for the past nine months since I was diagnosed.

The Cytomel is a thyroid medication; which yes, stems from Bipolar but it is not used for a psychiatric reason.

So, taking all of that into account, in less than a week, I will only be on five medications, Lamictal and Geodon for Bipolar maintenance. I do not count the Propranolol as a psychiatric drug due to the physical problems that my illness was causing (heart palpitations, migraines and that knot that I mentioned). I am already predisposed to heart and circulatory problems from my father who along with heart disease (and was on Propranolol) also had Bipolar, Borderline Personality Disorder, GAD, SAD and PTSD. I just got lucky and missed out on the BPD.

So to answer your question, is there really a difference? Yes, there is. This person is on medications that double for themselves and don't seem to be at a theraputic level (without the explanation of tapering off of them). He/she stated that this was his/her "power combo". I was simply pointing that out.

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