HEY AM I THE ONLY ONE SCARED BY RECENT WORLD EVENTS?

[knitten]

[olga]

Well, it's ugly out there, snowfly. I don't think you'll get an argument there, even from crazy people!

My state is really taking a hit because 20% of our state's income comes from Wall Street. When there's a big financial disaster like this one, it knocks our state budget all out of kilter. I don't know how they'll make up that deficit in income.

However, I'm a student of history and I'm not seeing a Great Depression like we had in the 30s. There are more safety nets in place for people who are up against it, and there is insurance to guarantee the safety of deposits in the bank. Certain sectors of our economy are booming. (Health care, elder services, the movie biz, television, the food industry.) I think people will be cooking more meals at home instead of eating out. More people will be shopping at thrift stores and looking for bargains. But it's temporary, and if people learn to economize, it will stand them in good stead when the economy starts to grow again.

olga

[december_brigette]

Hi,

For probably the first time in my life i can say 100% i am not concerned about the economy. as for other world events - the lithium seems to be working.

I cant imagine where my mind would be if i was still married, owned house, and working. So, it is a really very good thing for me to be divorced, renting an apt, and poor. I literally have nothing to lose. and right now that is quite refreshing.

travel down memory lane to the tech bust at the beginning of this century - i was a CNBC addict. I "lost" money. and i was deeply upset. but now...not so much.

as for other world events - did anyone else watch larry king interview the president of iran?

db

[crazynotstupid]

I think people will be cooking more meals at home instead of eating out. More people will be shopping at thrift stores and looking for bargains. But it's temporary, and if people learn to economize, it will stand them in good stead when the economy starts to grow again.

You realize, if people aren't eating out or shopping at "real" stores, the economy can't exactly grow...

But dammit I'm worried. We never really even saw conditions like this even in the Depression. We have no clue what will happen and no political leadership willing to fix it.

IMO, we're all screwed. Invest in gold...

[Velvet Elvis]

It's the fruits of Reganism coming home to roost. Nobody should be surprised. For the past 20 years this is exactly what those of us on the left have been saying would result from deregulation.

The Republicans aren't the only ones to blame. Clinton is the one who signed off on the repeal of Glass-Steigal.

The DLC can lick my ass.

You tell Wall Street there's no rules, give tax incentives encouraging them to fuck people over and now all of a sudden people are freaked out.

Told. You. So.

It's not the end of the world, but shit's going to suck ass for the next ten years or so.

[SUEzie]

I am concerned, but I do think this will pass. My hubby is 10 years older than I am, and due to retire next year. Hopefully, there will still be something in our Mutual Fund by then.

What really ticks me off, though - is that my tax money is "bailing out" corporations whose CEO's make salaries in the hundreds of millions of dollars, in many cases. There had damn well be some stipulations in this "bail-out" that insure this never happens again.

Because frankly, I really don't care if a lot of these guys end up on some street corner with tin cups...I do care about "regular people" (crazy or not) like you and me, though.

- Susan

[Croix]

I agree. Taking from the poor to bail out the rich? Bullshit. I don't want my taxmoney going to that. I'm about at the point where I wanna say "Fuck em, let em collapse and let the chips fall where they may". Greedy bastards.

Croix

[Maddy]

I'm not worried about the financials.

Dad says this is no where near as bad as it was during the Depression.

And if all else fails, we still have platinum.

[Velvet Elvis]

For people who didn't have crap to begin with, not much is going to change except is going to be harder to find a job.

If you've been depending on a 401k to retire in the next five years you might have to work until you're dead. Sorry, that's the free market for you. Let's put social security into it too just to make sure we'll all be good and fucked.

People who have investments are going to be feeling the hurt. People who have always thought of investments as something only rich people have won't notice much difference.

I wonder what the odds are that once A.I.G. is nationalized they will use to provide health insurance to the poor? Yeah, I didn't think so either.

[SUEzie]

About half our retirement fund is in investments. It's an investment plan at hubby's work, but it's still investments - and I know they'll decrease in value a bunch, and that sucks. Maybe he won't retire next year, I dunno. He also has a separate pension, that is supposedly going to be okay, but we won't be living "high on the hog" or anything. Time will tell if it exists next year, or not.

We were planning to move, and buy a different house, but those plans are definitely "on hold" now. As for my social security - well, lets just say I am not counting on it. I won't even qualify for it for another 12-15 years, but I am pretty sure it's better to not count on it being there. I think I am going to look for a paying job, too (I have just been doing volunteer work. Looks like those days are probably over, at least for now.)

I am SO MAD that we are bailing out these rich corporations whose CEO's are overpaid and incompetent, and stupid. It's a conundrum, because on the one hand, according to what economist are saying on TV, and in the newspaper, we can't afford NOT to bail them out - but on the other hand, I really don't think they deserve it - and would much rather see them just fizzle out, fade away and have their companies go bankrupt, if it wasn't going to hurt the average American. But it will hurt them, apparently. So there appears to be nothing we can do, besides go along with this plan.

My sister has a name for people like this (these corporate CEOs, whose businesses are failing due to their own corruption, stupidity and greed)- she calls them "stupid rich people." Her theory is that some rich people really are stupid (even if they might not appear that way all the time), because they lead such insulated lives. I think maybe there are stupid, irresponsible people in every economic class, and I'm sure there are nice rich people out there, but I do tend to believe that at least stupid poor and middle-class people don't rape the U.S. Treasury on a semi-regular basis.

I just heard Bill Clinton on TV, on the Larry King show. He says this current "bail-out plan" isn't nearly detailed enough, and that Congress needs to re-think it, and make it better. Congress better believe if this ever happens again, there will be a tax-payer revolt in the streets, and mass riots, too.

- Susan

[december_brigette]

hi all:

VE - i love the way you think:

I wonder what the odds are that once A.I.G. is nationalized they will use to provide health insurance to the poor? Yeah, I didn't think so either.

I have some specific plans for the part of AIG i now own. I just cant figure out which part is mine.

All my "savings" went to paying for baby's & my health care...i really dont have any compassion for people with investments. sure, it sucks. im a bitch.

db

[Phoenix_Rising]

It's the fruits of Reganism coming home to roost. Nobody should be surprised. For the past 20 years this is exactly what those of us on the left have been saying would result from deregulation.

Ah, yes. Trickle down economics. My ass. Not much of a trickle left after the CEOs gave themselves the mother of all salary packages. And if there did happen to be some left, that went to the people that helped get them there. ("Hello Energy Regulators, have a hooker. She's one of our employees (wink wink)".

I don't know what scares me more; giant financial institutions evaporating or the fact that this "bailout" could place even more power in the very hands of the people that screwed things up.

Don't get me started

Financial peace,

Phoenix

[wifezilla]

I'm mot normally a paranoid, tin-foil hat wearer, but I am stocking the pantry and the deep freeze...and shopping for a hunting bow.

[Croix]

Aren't we supposed to have a system of checks and balances to ensure this kinda stuff doesn't happen? If not, we should. Because of this situation exactly.

Croix

[crazynotstupid]

Admit it. It's got a damn good deal to do with the democrats, you lot of republican bashers.

"Oh, you have to give mortgages to the subprimes--don't make them prove their incomes, it's raaaaacist..." And so illegals get nice homes, poor people get nice homes, then come the foreclosures, then blooey go the markets and it falls from there.

It ain't just the companies, it ain't deregulation and it damn sure ain't the republicans. Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, oh i could go on. You people just love painting targets on what you don't like instead of looking at the whole picture.

[december_brigette]

hi,

several years ago i did a speed-dating thing. one of the daters was a guy who sold subprime mortgages. I asked how he made money because it didnt make sense to me to sell mortgages to people who couldnt afford it. he said he didnt care if they paid - he was just interested in the sell.

he must be belly-up in the tampa bay by now.

and no, i didnt meet anyone hook-up worthy in the speed-date.

db

[Isolde]

Reaganomics.

Voodoo economics.

Trickle Down Theory.

Union Busting.

Deregulation.

Lobbyists.

Savings & Loan Crisis.

Government Bail Outs.

It was only a matter of time. I could see this one coming for a long, long time and only the deaf, dumb and blind couldn't see it coming.

[withing]

I don't pay attention to economics because I've always been too poor for them to have any effect on me. If I come out of this college thing with a marketable degree in TESOL, I'll hopefully be able to get something that pays more than minimum wage, and then I might start worrying about the economy, but until then I just have to make it from paycheck to paycheck like always. Everyone thought I was insane when I didn't keep my 401K from the one "real" job I've had over the years. Well, I didn't stay in that job long enough for it to accumulate any real money, and I'm really bad at saving for a rainy day. I cashed it out when the going got tough. Also, I don't have (and never will) any trust the stock market. And I'm so poor that I've always planned on working until I just can't work anymore. I don't plan to retire - only people who can afford to retire do so, the rest of us work until we die.

[wifezilla]

I feel your pain CNS. Not having enough socialism didn't cause this. More socialism wont solve it. Both parties have their share of the blame and I honestly think most of them are too stupid to know what the real problem is so there is no way in hell they will fix it.

[SUEzie]

I am an Independent, neither Republican nor a Democrat, but the more I read about this, the more I am tempted to not bail any of these banks out - and just leave them to deal with their own mess they created, on their own. If they fail, then so be it.

I read a study last night that said that over 122 Economists (2 of them Nobel prize winners) think this bailout is a BAD idea. They all signed a letter and sent it to Bush. They said it will send the wrong message to the market, and not only reinforce stupid behavior (on the part of the bank CEOs and employees), but also lessen incentives for people to be realistic about what they can afford, in general, over time re: Mortgages, and credit.

They also said that a bigger deal is being made of this than is necessary. They said yes, it's a problem and if unchecked, may cause a small Recession - BUT it's not anywhere near the debacle everyone seems to be claiming. It said a small Recession, (vs. the alternative message we'd be sending, if we did bail out these banks), would be worth the temporary inconvenience.

Some people say that Warren Buffett investing $5 billion a few days ago in the brokerage firm Goldman-Sachs, is a sign that the bailout is needed. But I think that's just Warren Buffett grabbing a really great deal on stocks when he sees one - as usual. It's just what he does. He got the stock at a super low price, and it increased like 40% the very next day. That's the only reason he did that (he knew it would happen.)

Also, I read an article that said $700 billion is WAY too high a figure for the government to be needing. Another article I read said the absolute most the banks could need, as a result of all of these mortgage failures (even the projected ones, that haven't happened yet) is about $110 billion.

This made me wonder what the rest of the money could possibly be FOR. It made me mad, and I've changed my mind. If what I read is true, then I say, let'em sink - they created this mess - let them live with it. Bet if they have to do that, it won't happen again soon.

- Susan

[Velvet Elvis]

If banks are out of money the economy is fucked. I think some kind of bailout is going to be required but likely not $700B. Whatever happens they should pay for it by taxing the wealthyist 1% who got us into this mess in the first place.

I'm OK with bailing out the banks. It's bailing out the bankers that I have a problem with.

Oh, CNS, Democrats are partially to blame here but not in the way you claim. In 1999 Bill Clinton signed the bill repealing Glass-Steigal, making it legal for banks to make risky investments with their customers deposits. The scenerio you describe never happened.

[LikeMinded]

Yeah, the banks need the bail-out. When closet Libertarian (okay, small insult to libertarians there) McCain states that the bailout is necessary, you know some shit's going down.

(Although said shit could be McCain's poll ratings, barely 2% separate him and Obama in this "red-blooded" state of Indiana, as per Zogby's 9/25 poll at least.)

And mortgages... ugh, don't get me started. I'm glad I live in an area that was relatively immune to the housing bubble rise and then bust (though it was immune by feat of new construction, and builders are NOT happy with the 'bust' now). And those stupid Internet animated mortgage ads just seem even stupider now.

How about "Major banks crashing! Interest rates not being lowered by the Fed! Just try and mortgage your $1,000,000 3BR/2.5BA in California now! And this dancing figurine has nothing to do with it at all!"

As borrowers, we have to understand the risks of subprime borrowing, just as banks need to realize the risks of subprime lending. There's no such thing as a free lunch, as my econ profs pounded into my head in college. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. I hope this ushers in an era of personal conservatism (that is, "downsizing" the economy while keeping it to scale). I'm not sure how that'd work by the numbers, but for some reason it makes intuitive sense to me. Banks aren't going to offer you ridiculously low interest rates any more, and I'm not so sure Big Oil (depends on which end of it you're at) and small gas stations are too keen on the price of a barrel any more.

Although I am largely for the free market and laissez-faire policies, I think the government has a right to control institutions that are in and of themselves rivaling the government in terms of power and financial abilities. If banking CEOs are making more than Cheney's annual capital gains are worth, then there's a time for action, even by the Republicans who coddle with big corporations.*

*(I'm not sure of the relationship numerically between Cheney's assets and the salaries of the CEOs of major banks, so don't trust me on that.)

[qwerty]

Immaturity in 3...2...1...

What does the economy and your mom have in common?

They both went down on me.

[december_brigette]

hi,

as long as we have wood to make paper and some kind of ink - money can be printed.

printing more money is the answer.

<runs out real quick>

[Isolde]

Bailouts just postpone the enevitable....and suck money from the proletariats.

The ship will eventually be scuttled and then we will all be facing some really nasty music.

[CrazySoprano]

Holy Crap I'm scared!

I've certainly lost sleep over it. And hair, come to think of it. I'm in the middle of a career change and about to lose my main source of income (and my healthcare benefits) and I'm scared to death.

[Thomas]

My wife and I closed on our first house a few days before the first plummet in the stock market. We're both in our fifties and know that we won't retire before 70, if ever. Fortunately, we got a 15 year note at a good percentage rate, so we will probably make it. Then again, we used almost all our savings for a big downpayment. Oh, well.

Tommy