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ideation vs intrusive thoughts


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Guest nottelling(yet)

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What's the difference?

I had lots of thoughts about killing myself while I was on antidepressants, I spent most of my time planning how to do it and a couple of times I felt this urge to just go and do it. They stopped after I changed antidepressants.

But now i'm thinking about it again. I drove over a railway bridge and thought it would be a good place, when I see tall buildings I look up to see if the roof is accessible. It's not all the time, maybe once every three hours. My mind runs through all the meds I have, wondering if I have enough.

I'm trying not to think about it because I actually feel a bit less depressed now. Sometimes I'm hopeful that I will get better. I have lots of reasons not to die. I'm really confused.

Am I suicidal or not? Is it just my brain firing off random thoughts to cope with stress?

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For me, the difference is how I feel. When I AM suicidal, I think and feel suicidal. When I have intrusive thoughts of self-harm, or harming others for that matter, but I'm not suicidal, I can separate them and discard them because I don't FEEL suicidal. If that makes any sense.

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i get those thoughts, they come and they pass. before my current round of meds, i was having them constantly, now its not that often. for me i think that the meds aren't enough, and im asking my pdoc on thursday for a dosage change.

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There's a dangerous period(in my experience and from what I've read) when the meds first start to give you the motivation that'll help you get out of the depression, but you've still got those nasty suicidal thoughts ticking over in your head.

If you think you might really do it, you ought to think about inpatient for a few days-tell your doc about this one!

I went through it for a little while on Prozac (my very first SSRI-and the only one on the market at the time), but the suicidal thoughts went away after a few months.

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meh dammit i'll out myself. ;)

I feel so stupid, just last week I was feeling awesome. My family thinks i'm better.

I wouldn't do anything. Maybe 10% of me just wants to give up (but even that part rationalizes there is no plan that is failproof, looks like an accident and won't cause trauma to another person) but the other part goes " :) are you thinking, you like living, remember? you shouldn't even think that"

and i'm definitely not at the stage where I need to tell anybody. I just...I don't even know what to type, or why i'm posting this.

I feel scared. I'm alone, maybe i'll just snap out of it if I can distract myself. Never mind.

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It's not all the time, maybe once every three hours. My mind runs through all the meds I have, wondering if I have enough.

OK, for most people, that qualifies as "all the time". "Occasionally", for non depressives, is, maybe, every five years, or so. Maybe three if times are tough.

It doesn't matter much whether the thoughts are from antidepressants or a fucked up brain, if you don't feel you can keep yourself safe, do something about it. Stay with friends, call your doc, go to the hospital. Something. Especially now.

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It doesn't matter much whether the thoughts are from antidepressants or a fucked up brain, if you don't feel you can keep yourself safe, do something about it. Stay with friends, call your doc, go to the hospital. Something. Especially now.

Greeny makes a wonderful point.

I still have those thoughts where you're driving over a bridge and "casually" think, "I could drive right off". They probably occur once every couple of weeks. Put they are passing thoughts, like whisps of clouds. However, these feelings are nothing like what I've experienced when I was truly suicidal. I knew then that I need help. That I was about to do something really dumb.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

Phoenix

edited for improper spelling and grammar.

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I think I must have made it sound way worse than it is.

Even if we ran down the official assessment criteria:

I don't have a concise plan, I don't have a set time, I have lots of reasons to live, I have other coping mechanisms.

I've been on this AD for 5 weeks, so it shouldn't be that.

It doesn't matter much whether the thoughts are from antidepressants or a fucked up brain, if you don't feel you can keep yourself safe, do something about it. Stay with friends, call your doc, go to the hospital. Something. Especially now.

Oh dear God a Hospital? Or I could shove a pen in my eye. That would probably be more enjoyable.

Why especially now?

My parents are home now so i'm not alone. I'm not screwing up my tdocs holiday unless i'm really in crisis (she made me promise to call before I try to kill myself a long time ago, and told me before holidays that it still stands but I was fine then), and I know i'm not there yet.

When I have intrusive thoughts of self-harm, or harming others for that matter, but I'm not suicidal, I can separate them and discard them because I don't FEEL suicidal.

I don't feel a strong urge to kill myself. But then again last time I wouldn't even have told my tdoc unless she asked specifically. I think she only asked cause it was protocol and she looked shocked for a second when I said yes.

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I still have those thoughts where you're driving over a bridge and "casually" think, "I could drive right off". They probably occur once every couple of weeks. Put they are passing thoughts, like whisps of clouds. However, these feelings are nothing like what I've experienced when I was truly suicidal. I knew then that I need help. That I was about to do something really dumb.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

Phoenix

edited for improper spelling and grammar.

Phoenix - can I ask you a couple of questions about these thoughts that you have. You say you think them "casually", by that do you mean that it's not necessary for you to grip the steering wheel extra hard and move over to the most inside lane so that you are as far away from the edge of the bridge as possible and you don't have to stop yourself from constantly looking over the edge. When you say they are passing, how long does it take exactly for the thoughts to pass? The thoughts don't worry you?

Why do you think you have these thoughts? Are they related to the amount of stress or anxiety you might be feeling on a particular day?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to figure out my instrusive thoughts. Thanks.

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Yeah i'm more interested in the thoughts stuff too.

This kind-of suicidal stage is tricky. Bad enough that I feel like crap and am scared, not bad enough to call tdoc or get my ass to hospital or tell somebody.

Usually I'd wait until tdoc but like I said it's six weeks away. Maybe i'll wait until Friday and tell my mum then, but I really don't want to worry her. How do I know when I really need help? I'm pretty embarrassed about it, I don't really want anybody at all knowing if I don't have too. (Honestly, last time I had to get my tdoc to call my doctor and ask for a meds change because I couldn't do it!)

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Tdoc actually told me that such intrusive thoughts are more normal than you think. I had the same thoughts... trying to find bridge pylons that weren't protected, driving off a bridge, and well, other gross stuff. He said normal people have those intrusive thoughts too, it's just how strong they are and whether we think we'll act on them. He didn't take it lightly, he was quite concerned, but didn't necessarily consider them suicidal, unless I was actually making a plan. They still scare me though. If you think you'll seriously act on them, get yourself to safety.

--->not that I know anything, but you might talk to pdoc about it, a med tweak might be in order. I know it certainly helped me for my intrusive thoughts.

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Tdoc actually told me that such intrusive thoughts are more normal than you think.

Yeah, I've been told this too. Also, not to take it lightly. But too not be freaked out by it either if that was THE ONLY weird thing going on and if the thought was fleeting. I get soooooooooooooo many fucked up thoughts in a days time--driving into a bridge abuttment is merely but one of them. Part of retraining a thinking disorder for me is to recognize, acknowledge, consider and either accept or reject the thought as valid or not. If found invalid or whatever, they just kind of go *poof*. Not all of them, some of the grisler ones tend to stay for awhile, but with practice it gets easier to just let them pass through my consciousness without judgment--good or bad. And by practice, I mean YEARS. Not days or months.

It's something I do discuss with tdoc all the time. In my head, for me to be *suicidal*. I have to have persistant thoughts and feelings of self-harm. BUT THAT IS JUST ME.

As Greeny said, if the OP or anyone else has any doubt whatsoever of whether or not they are really suicidal, or whether or not they are safe to themselves or others, please err on the side of caution and get help right away--like now. Tell your family, your best friend, you partner, or go to the ER. I have done THAT too. Numerous times. Lots of us have.

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I agree with S9 (even though I personally can't actually DISCARD the bad thoughts).

For me, the intrusive thoughts tend to be more verbal, like I hear a voice in my head saying "I want to kill myself" and it sounds like my voice, but there's nothing behind it - no emotion or impulse or anything. It's still disturbing, but it doesn't feel motivating.

When I'm actually feeling suicidal, I don't have the thoughts, I just feel like I want to die, in my body rather than in my head. It feels like being pressed into the ground with a massive weight, or maybe picked up and squeezed really tightly.

The self-harming ideation is more complicated for me, because I sometimes get both at once. I sometimes get the just straight-up intrusive thoughts, like "I want to hurt myself" with nothing behind them, but sometimes I get these really clear images of hurting myself in bizarre ways, and even though I know I can stop myself, I still find something appealing about them - that's me wanting to a little bit. And then sometimes (usually when I'm also feeling suicidal) I just get this full body itch - I don't have the thoughts, I just have this urge to bite myself or scratch or tear my skin off or something, and I can actually feel my hands twitching and wanting to. And then sometimes I'm worried I won't be able to stop myself. That's usually when I get someone to sit with me.

I think this is an interesting topic - I've been thinking about it a lot recently myself.

ETA: Pdoc seems to think that my weird disembodied voices are somewhat dissociative in nature, mostly because I've got other dissociative-type stuff in here. So I guess that's probably part of it for me.

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Wow tryp that's interesting about dissociation. That describes it perfectly! Sometimes its like "I want to die" but I don't, and other times I've really wanted to.

Same with the self-harm stuff- maybe because it's less extreme we are more likely to give into those, and then it becomes addictive.

My tdoc says everybody has some intrusive thoughts too.

P.S, I was the OP. Guess I didn't make that clear in my second post. Sorry. Leave S9s disclaimer thought, somebody could google this page.

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