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Well, I'm a little conflicted here, Survivor.

Part of me respects your opinion and your right to voice it.

But another, louder part of me thinks you're dead wrong on this one.

Sorry - not trying to pick on you. I come from a long line of deeply crazy people, though. I don't think Crazy Is Better, or Crazy Is The Greatest Thing Ever, and I sure as hell wouldn't have Upgraded To Extra-Crazy, Please, With a Side Of Nuts, but I've seen some positive aspects... and I also don't think my schizophrenic relatives are a drain on the planet.

Maybe one of the evolutionary psych types will come along here.

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So, according to you, I should die because I am schizophrenic? I am useless and worthless according to you. You are dead wrong and you shouldn't even think those things. It is mean, nasty and rude. You hurt my feelings by reading your post. Yes, schizophrenics have feelings as well and can be productive members of society.

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Well, I'd say that the more you consumed the more "useless" you were (with respect to environmental concerns anyway), but I realize that not everyone will agree with my values.

I don't know much about schizophrenia, but you seem pretty damn coherent (if in a lousy mood) right now.

I have no intention of having kids myself, but there are other ways you can contribute to society. (Having kids is all well and good, but it'll take a while before they become capable of making their own contributions, and for a while, they'll require the help of others.)

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Survivor, if you don't want to have kids, you don't have to have kids. That's up to you. It's fine. If you're mourning not having them, that's understandable; if you don't want to have them, that's understandable as well. I don't have kids because I think my head would explode, personally.

Euthanized? Sheesh. I'm sitting here agonizing every fucking DAY, for hours, about when we'll know we're going to put my sweet old dog down. He hasn't contributed much to society at all. I mean, he chased some sheep, sure, but he never, like, saved anyone from drowning. He's just a nice old guy. That doesn't mean he's Nembutal-material just yet. He's comfy and happy, I think, so I leave him be...

I don't think that, as a species, we're ready to be euthanizing subpopulations. That hasn't worked out real well, y'know?

If you're feeling like a drain on resources, that sounds like something other than concerns about schizophrenia.

If you're talking about euthanizing schizophrenics, that seems like a flimsily-veiled sort of suicidal ideation.

So, uh, what's up, Survivor?

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That is a hurtful thing to learn about Einstein, I agree.

It was a different time, though.

200 years ago, schizophrenia would have been considered "demonic possession." Heck, some parts of the country, it still might be.

People are products of their time, Survivor. (I didn't even know Einstein's son was schizophrenic until you'd brought this up, but I think it's interesting, considering the overlap in my family between schizophrenia and becoming a mathematician.)

Please understand that I'm not being an apologist for him, but... sometimes, even usually, people of that time (and this time) put their kids in "institutions" because they wanted their kids to get better.

Wanting your kids to get better is not a bad thing.

In this case, it didn't work out well. There were relatively few helpful interventions for schizophrenia at that point in time. Cold water treatments, etc., were not helpful. People died. It was, yes, profoundly fucked up. I don't even think the medical staff were trying to be cruel or vindictive - I think the majority were trying to do the right thing, and they were saddened and horrified by the outcomes... but they saw the alternatives as being worse.

We forget in this day and age that, as horrific as some of our social cliches are, we have relatively few actual "dead in the streets," and relatively few "raving madmen." I know the urban dwellers on this board are laughing their asses off right about now, I know, I've been to the big city too, and that's why I say relatively few "raving madmen." I'd also like to add that at least we now live long enough to be raving on the streets.

I haven't read anything about it, but it would surprise me if Einstein was blase or blithe about his child's death. I think any parent who had gone through the hellish path of having to institutionalize a kid, and then having that adult kid die, would be racked with guilt by it.

I think if my cousin hadn't been clozapined, he'd have been in the same boat, or he'd have shot himself, by the way...

But I'm talking out my ass. I've never read anything about Einstein's kid or Einstein's kid's death. I can see how this would really piss you off.

So what's going on with Saskatoon? You Canadians are always so much cooler than us about these things - don't shatter my naive US delusions. ;) I realize it's Saskatoon, not BC, but still...

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I have four words for you:

Not defective. Just different.

and there's nothing wrong with that. Negatively judging someone based on their comparison to baseline 'normality' completely disregards the intrinsic value of that individual. You'd never say 'oh, that paraplegic is a worthless member of society and should be euthanised because they cant walk', so why impose similar judgements on people with MI?

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heck if you are going down that path we could be killing off anybody with screwy genes. Mine are screwed in various ways. Crappy ligaments, hearts, food allergies, depression...

You don't deserve to die. You have a purpose here. I'm sorry you are feeling so bad about it all.

And that's interesting about Einstein, i'd never even heard about that before.

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Hi Survivor,

you got me with the title.

to look at my genetic history and see whats happening now...well, to me its very upsetting. i've always thought i would die of liver cancer because that seems to be the route of a lot of people in my history.

and this stupid borderline cholesterol issue of mine - i am my fathers daughter. and good god!! I didnt think shit like this would start popping up now in my mid-30's.

I procreated. so far my baby is doing great. i hope on all hopes that she doesnt get the MI.

Ive never really thought highly about einstein. wtf does that equation mean, anyway!?!?

you, survivor, are very deserving of living. so is everyone else.

i hope you are getting good rest,


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I wanted to reply last night but wasn't exactly sure how to frame my words.

Survivor, my cousin Brian was schizophrenic and although he was not put in an institution, his parents ignored his illness. When he told his father he was hearing voices, his dad told him not to tell anyone and to keep this to himself. That meant that the poor guy didn't get the treatment he should have gotten so that he could have had a more productive life.

This guy was the smartest kid in our school. He got A's in everything and was accepted into a really top-notch college. I think people with this illness can do some remarkable things, but like the rest of us, they need to take their meds and see a competent pdoc to manage their MI.

Like you, I made the decision years ago to not have children, but I think you can make a contribution to society in many other ways. My cousin was a genius and achieved some remarkable things in his field. (He was a marine biologist). It's a struggle, but I think that's true of everyone here at CB who is out there in the world, trying to make their way.

Talk of euthanasia reminds me of Hitler and the Nazis. We don't want to go back there. Let's embrace everyone here with their craziness and gifts and interesting differences.


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I'm going to use an old Buddhist story and replace the word "death" with "medical problem."

Short version:

Once upon a time, a woman whose child had a medical problem went to see the Buddha to see if he could make the medical problem go away. The Buddha told her that if she could find a mustard seed from the home of a family that had never experienced a medical problem, he would make the child's medical problem go away. Off the woman went, looking for a family that had never experienced a medical problem. She went from house to house, and each house told her something similar but different - my grandmother died of lung cancer, my daughter has diabetes, my father has heart disease. Finally understanding Buddha's wisdom, she went to join some nuns or something.

So the moral of the story is, try to think of a friend or a friend's family member that had never had a medical issue of some kind. Even something seemingly small, like a tendency to develop cavities (Seems small, but would have been a big deal pre-amalgam). Can you think of anyone? It's unlikely.

There are some conditions that doctors know how to treat better than others, but in the end, all of our genes suck. We're all genetically defective. My philosophy? Survival of the fittest and what have you. We are supposed to die, you know.

Now here's the part where I stop being so bleak.

This has no bearing on your value as a person. We're all on a level playing field gene-wise. As for our contributions to society, we do what is within our capacity. Some people are rocket scientists. Some people bag groceries. Some people simply love and are loved by others. It's all necessary. We cannot function as a society without kindness and grocery baggers and rocket scientists. We all contribute.

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So We all have got medical problems huh?

Yep. It's just a matter of time.

If it helps to know, EVERYONE is genetically flawed. That's part of what makes each individual different. As for medical defects, it's only a matter of how so and when it shows. Sometimes, a particular one doesn't show for generations. Sometimes it manifests in the person right now. And, of course, most people these days die of some illness eventually which often is due to a coded defect in their genes.

An infinite number of perspectives exist on this topic as on any other. When I find myself narrowing in on a negative one, I try to step back or ask others what they think. That's sorta like what you did here.

I hope you are feeling more optimistic today. You are no more defective than anyone else. You do, however, have some challenges most don't. That's not necessarily a bad thing since you also have positive qualities and experiences others lack, too.

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a couple things come to mind here

one, John Nash. (movie about him: A Beautiful Mind). fucking brilliant and schizo.

my personal opinion that possibly MI people 'think outside the box' often enough to solve problems, and that gives MI evolutionary value. see, it doesn't have to be *every* individual, it just has to happen *often enough* to offset the negative issues. or, there could be some other evolutionary advantage that we don't know about. maybe it protects against some kind of disease process (like sickle cell protecting against malaria). maybe close relatives of a schizo person get some kind of advantage, either genetic or environmental (maybe the schizo relative somehow increases survival). we don't know, cuz we barely understand evolutionary biology. biologists have to consider not just individuals, but groups, and some even look at evolution from a gene's point of view.

remember, scientists used to believe that altruism couldn't exist, because the individual gained *nothing*. but later they found, from a gene's point of view, altruism (taking care of your relatives instead of having offspring) made very good sense. ***this is really, really simplified. please don't pick a fight because i didn't get it right in 50 words or less. i'm trying to make the point that we don't really KNOW that MI is an evolutionary disadvantage, just because it is a personal disadvantage to the individual with it***

two, as for Einstein: i was reading about Gandhi (bear with me for a moment) and learned he treated his immediate family badly. by American standards, we'd call him abusive to his wife. that got me looking, and a lot of Famous People Who Did Great Things For Humanity treated their families like shit. it's like they decided the 'little problems' of the 'little people' didn't deserve their time. (my interpretation).

my point is, just because Einstein was a genius and (later) a humanitarian doesn't mean he was perfect. he was quite capable of being a dick to his family. look at politicians: how many of them hurt their families by having affairs, even as they do good things for their countries and constituents? so i think the Einstein example isn't really an example of him having a bias against MI, it's really an example of him being a major dickhead to his family just like many Famous People. (think Clinton, Napolean, Churchill, Ghandi, Mother Teresa to name jsut a few).

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About 5 years ago I made a big mistake. I had a vasectomy because, just like you, I didn't want to spread my defective inferior seed any more than I had already. (Never mind the fact I have a very smart, beautiful athletic daughter) Since then It's been pretty hard to date. But I digress.

For a long time I felt the way you did in your original post. I then realized that while being schizoaffective is a struggle in this present society the way it's currently set up, I wasn't defective or inferior. Just different. That's all. Sure it's hard. Society doesn't know how to deal with people like us. It just makes us different. What if the majority of the population had a schizo diagnosis and "normal" people were in the minority. Would that make them inferior? No. It would just make them different. we all have struggles But I feel that's just a part of the human condition.

Besides, we already tried euthanization. Didn't work out so well.

Hope my rambling was helpful.

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Survivor, my friend,

I'm late to the party. I can't say anything more profound (or profound at all, for that matter) that hasn't already been said by the great minds that have commented before me.

You are a brilliant young man. It is a blessing and a curse. You have to decide which one you are going to embrace. From the stories we've shared about Bonsa and Bradley, I'm completely inclined to believe in your blessing of brilliance. You are young, the world is yours for the taking. What DO you want to be when you grow up?

Enough of this talk of euthenazia. It is disrespectful to the dead who had no choice in the matter and would much rather not be dead. Life is a blessing, a beautiful, precious gift. There are as many ways to connect to that magic as there are feet pounding the planet on any given day.

Take heart, Survivor. Reconnect with your survivor spirit, and stop looking backward. You need a battle plan. You have a charge to lead, and that mission is your own survival. Your own future. Not Moms, not anyone else's, YOURS.

Please be safe and well. You are an important one of us.



My guy intent on a bird (not a Budgie, but still appropriate to our common bond)


Survivor--you don't deserve premature death any more than someone with a brain tumor does. So, stop that, please. Think of solutions. If you need help, if I can help, PM me.

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Only Survivor is a She and 40 years old.
OOPS! Where did I think you were a dude? Sorry!

Your Guy looks like a Shaman.
He was a very special spirit, for sure. Walks with the Gods now, or in his case...flies...

We all have our place in this crazy world. It's not up to us to decide who stays and who goes--even if that someone is us. (imo)

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Im very 'genetically defective' - heart problems dying young on both sides of the family and alcoholism like in all traditional Irish families runs through our veins like whiskey. Every day is a struggle being schizo and I have thought about Dignitas but my life is too rich and interesting to make such a drastic decision. I'm not affected by negative symptoms and mania can be fun for a while until you can't concentrate on your studies (which is a bone of contention for me right now cos I live for my studies). Like another poster said I have a 16 year old smooth collie bitch and she is not an asset to society, she's virtually incontinent and stinks, she has a good appetite but my work colleague told me she's trying to eat herself to death (because Im always coming in with stories like 'My dog got diagnosed with a heart murmur yesterday'). But I believe she is happy and contented and she has enriched my life and saved me from suicide several times. Deciding not to have a child because you don't want them to turn out like you is perfectly reasonable and up to you but I have decided that should I meet the right man I will have children even though I am 20 colours of crazy. My schizophrenia was caused by cannabis, my BPD to an abusive childhood and watching my sister get paralysed by falling off a horse when she was 19, I will not drink in front of my children and tell them gory horror stories of my life as an addict. I can't wait for motherhood if it's in the cards for me. I always appear and act normal so I won't frighten my children even if I am ten sheets to the wind psychotic

So I'm declaring myself as a pro-life schizo

I hope you feel better soon survivor, I respect the decision you have made

blackbird x

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Hope my rambling was helpful.


Did You know that a vasectomy makes You sexier to a lot of Women?

Thanks. It tends to, until they want a commitment. Babies and stuff. My daughter is 10 so they wouldn't get all of that. But Golly gee heck, that's the way most women think here in Utah. At least my not so fun genes skipped my kid.

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blackbird wrote:

watching my sister get paralysed by falling off a horse when she was 19....So I'm declaring myself as a pro-life schizo.

a similar thing happened with my sister except she wasnt paralysed, just scarred. That kind of stuff is scary.

I like the idea of "pro-life schizo." thats very good.

survivor - im glad you are getting a variety of responses and that people in your 'group' agree with a lot of the CB posts.


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