All you need to know about the Autism-Vaccine controversy

[Velvet Elvis]

This is pretty much definitive at this point:

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:do...l.pbio.1000114#

[peeej]

good. hardline it. it looks like you haven't had too much curebie fanatics in here. they're all over twitter. impossible to avoid, almost.

or maybe you're quashing them all. in any case, it doesn't even need a thanks, really. as if y'all would be on the stupid side of the non-debate.

[WTF ever]

I don't beleive a vaccine could cause autism per say, or that there's any reason not to give a child a vaccine at this point in society, but for pure intellectual reasoning I will share my thoughts.

Autism, and many other brain cootie disorders, are currently believed to be possibly lined to an autoimmune(example being chronic fatigue syndrom has very high rates of mycoplasma, schizophrenia has very high (rates compared to controls) of borna disease virus, ocd and strep ect). With this being said, it is possible that a vaccine could potentially trigger an autoimmune like response in people suceptibale to this, such as eating shrooms can induce psychosis in latent schizophrenics, but other than that I don't beleive them to have any other credibility to say they are linked with autism, which I don't beleive they are.

An example of this is the failed Lyme disease vaccine in humans, where a certain percent of people complained of fatigue and some joint tenderness long term after the disease, and they pulled the drug do to fears of an autoimmune reaction.

More importantly I think parents should not be bashed for being stupid or dumb when it comes to the welfare of their child(as let's face it women have a DNA code passed on for millenia installing in them the drive and thought pattern on how to protect their child, so they are not necessarily more dumb than the average population, and certainly don't care any less) but that parents should be educated on the risk benifit analysis of the problem, to allow them to make the best decision for their child. This does not include just saying it dosnt exist, your wrong or a loud shut the fuck up you batshit crazy person(although it often seems like the best one ), but showing them the benifits and risks of each option. For example the chance their kid could if at all possible aquire autism(rates for autism in world) and the negatives of that( potential increased schooling, possibly seeing a therapist ect, vs the chance of aquiring polio, whooping cough, and the negatives of that, child dying, child becoming paralyzed, child suffering. And also the fact that even if you don't vaccinate and your child acquires mycoplasma mono strep the flue(which they most likely will) the same thing could happen too.

Some people no matter how hard you argue with them will not agree and that's ok, as they would never accept they are wrong and would keep arguing. The ones you do want to the each out to are the logical ones who have yet to perform a biased opinion(ie my friend did it so I thought I would try).

So for this reason I just want to say thank you for posting this link and making this post, as this is a very good way to get the factual truth out and allow for mothers(or fathers) to have an educated area for information about the subject, versus very biased and opinionated political statements which as we know use fear or the what if factor to make people beleive things(I call it a OCD hate crime, but it's yet to catch on)

[Velvet Elvis]

Autism, and many other brain cootie disorders, are currently believed to be possibly lined to an autoimmune(example being chronic fatigue syndrom has very high rates of mycoplasma, schizophrenia has very high (rates compared to controls) of borna disease virus, ocd and strep ect). With this being said, it is possible that a vaccine could potentially trigger an autoimmune like response in people suceptibale to this, such as eating shrooms can induce psychosis in latent schizophrenics, but other than that I don't beleive them to have any other credibility to say they are linked with autism, which I don't beleive they are.

An example of this is the failed Lyme disease vaccine in humans, where a certain percent of people complained of fatigue and some joint tenderness long term after the disease, and they pulled the drug do to fears of an autoimmune reaction.

 

OK, I've seen some speculation along these lines but nothing that would pass peer review.  If you're going to lay this out as fact, I'd like to see some supporting evidence.  

If you have any academic credentials in any area related to this, I'd be curious to know about them but ask you not to say so publicly.   

[WTF ever]

Look at the disorder Pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder induced by streptococcus, abbreviated PANDAS. It is a form of ocd that is induced by exsposure and subsequent autoimmune response to strep throat. Or you could look at it's cousin which is well known sydham chorea. When the body is exposed to these bacteria the autoimmune process that is normally used to kill off the bacteria goes haywire and begins attacking regions of the basal ganglia or heart(in the case of sydnhams chorea).

If you were to say that strep causes ocd as a blunt fact I would say no, as the amount of people who were given strep or not would who experienced ocd after exsposure to either placebo or strep would probably be within margin of error. However in a certain subset of patients ocd can indeed be induced by streptococcus bacteria.

So the belief that vaccines could indeed do something that we don't know about does exist, but it also does for a refreshing can of coca cola.

Look how allergies work. No one says to not feed your child peanuts as they can kill sometimes. You only avoid peanuts if they make your kid turn into a balloon. Same with vaccines in my opinion, 99% of people including myself and family(as I like to believe I'm unbiased but i think we all are to some degree) get vaccines and feel fine. But can you rule out everyone? I'd say no. I'm not saying you shouldn't vaccinate your child just as I don't think every child should avoid peanuts, but for something that works by inducing an immune response, scientifically it only makes sense that in some people it could potentially fuck things up.

If you want sources for anything I have written I can provide them, just highlight what you want and I should be able to get em.

[Velvet Elvis]

You really need to give sources when making claims that are not medical consensus.  

[WTF ever]

On what

Highlight phrases you want sources for and I'll get them

[WTF ever]

PANDAS- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10513708/?i=5&from=ocd%20ivig

Borna disease virus-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016517819402600N

Failed lyme vaccine-

http://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/suppl_3/s253.long

OCD

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25658702/?i=3&from=ocd%20anti

What else do you need studies on?

[WTF ever]

Look at stomach ulcers for example. As of now most are know to be caused by bacteria. Before we knew that, the guy who proposed the idea was seen as a lunatic and far fetched, received no funding, and was wrote off as a nut, however he now has a noble prize. Point being yes most cases of theory's are nutty and wrong. But that is how the foundation of science is built. To tell some one to shut the fuck up and sit down you are wrong is one of the most unscientific things to do.

Yes sadly a lot of people will not let go as I said in my first post, and you cannot change these peoples mind. What I said can remedy this is to disengage and just let them be, you need to worry about the other more populous group that is easily persuaded by fads, as they will actually listen. So for increasing numbers of vaccinations while preserving the freedom of people, simply use methods to get the word out to the majority that vaccines are safe. Similar to anti smoking campaigns, 40 years ago you were weird if you thought smoking was bad, now it's opposite. There are still people who swear by smoking, but they are not the target of the mouth cancer ciggarete adds, it's the majority.

Same can be done with vaccines, show that the risks of not vaccinating(child in India with polio who soils himself while crawling down the street) are worth the risk.

[Velvet Elvis]

We can start with the fact that you posit the existence of PANDAS as fact when it is pure speculation.   There's been a huge debate over that for years.

That kinda calls into suspicion everything else you've stated as fact without substantiation.  

[Velvet Elvis]

An article published in one oddball Swedish journal does not establish academic consensus.

[WTF ever]

Read the studies I posted? Or how about sydnhams chorea? Is that false? Pretty sure that's been around for a while as my great grandfather died later in life due to his week heart he got from it. They also perscribe ivig for that. Also.....it causes neurological and psychiatric problems! Yes it indeed does. So to can late stage syphilis.

"That kinda calls into suspicion everything else you've stated as fact without substantiation. "

Similarly couldn't I say that since you are a moderator on a site for people that have pretty severe mental issues that everything you have said is subject to suspicion? We both know that statement is full of shit, as should your previous one be. Correct me if I'm wrong

Name the study you want more peer reviewed credible info on and I will provide it. Plain and simple. Don't just say you are wrong and not state what is wrong

[Velvet Elvis]

I'm done

[WTF ever]

As you should be you have offered no scientific thought yourself

[WTF ever]

Oh wait sorry, news channel 10 just broad caster a month or two ago that vaccines can't cause any problems at all with utter most certainty, taken back everything i said

[Velvet Elvis]

I have made no positive assertions and thus have had no reason to give any kind of supporting evidence.  

 

I've asked the same of you that we do of everyone else that comes here.  If you make any claims that are not part of the readily agreed upon medical consensus, be prepared to support your claim.  Cherry picking journal articles isn't supporting your claim.  You can find individual articles supporting any any position you damn well please, particularly if you look at weird foreign language journals.

[Velvet Elvis]

Are you on the ASD spectrum?

 

If not, I kindly ask you to refrain from posting to this board.

[WTF ever]

The article I sent was from oxford england?

Maybe if you could comprehend this bizzare language that is English you would see that

A) disorders exist that are caused by an autoimmune reaction which can induce neurological, and psychiatric problems

Syphilis, and streptochachous induced rheumatic fever.

B) vaccines for similar diseases have been pulled off the market due to post marketing autoimmune related side effects. Borellia vaccine.

C) it is not impossible for an injected substance that induces an immune response in it's host to induce an autoimmune reaction

Read about stomach ulcers, or Galileo, what would they have done in this instance....cherry pick the very scarce sources that supported their claim? Or were they with he majority on everything.

Also if you refute any claim you should provide a counter argument which you have not done. At the moment you are sitting there saying that's not a good source. You don't have enough sources. That's controversial. Offer some damn intellect or don't post if you can't offer intelligent thought through reasons for your statement other than I have the majority side or I can't read English.

[Velvet Elvis]

Look, for every academic discipline there's only a handful of journals that are considered authoritative.    The rest are basically vanity presses.  Two of the four links you gave don't even go to journal articles.

 

Learn how to PubMed.

[Gearhead]

Dr. Andrew Wakefield, the lying sack of shit who first posited a link between Autism and childhood vaccinations, has been stripped of his medical license for perpetrating "an elaborate fraud" and "falsifying the data" in that original study. Read all about it here:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/

And here, you can find more information about the lack of connection between vaccines and Autism:

http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

The factors that determine whether a kid (and later an adult, let's not forget that you and your Autism will be together for life!) is going to be Autistic or not have thusfar proven so complex that current thinking says "honestly, we're not sure, but it's neurological and it seems to begin in utero."

And don't give me that load of shit about women's biological drive to protect children. Half the people on this board who suffered childhood abuse were abused by their mothers. Women are people just like men; some want kids, some don't, some are good and caring parents, and some aren't.