starpirate555 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 this is probably an old topic but i want to talk about it. can caffeine lower lithium to the point where your crave carbs thereby making you fat. if you lower lithium do you lower serotonin as well. remember now, low serotonin makes you overweight. but what if your not on caffeine, are you still going to get fat from lithium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'll just address the main question. Yes, caffeine (and theobromine - found in dark chocolate and black tea, and theophylline) lowers lithium levels. It can lower lithium level quite a bit. If you change caffeine intake quite a bit, you should have your lithium level rechecked. I suppose that if you crave carbohydrates at a lower lithium level, then, yes, increased caffeine/etc. consumption would lead to lower lithium level, then increased CHO craving, and then potentially weight gain, if your exercise didn't increase to match intake. If you started eating lots of dark chocolate, it would be a double whammy. Yes, people can and do eat enough dark chocolate to influence serum lithium; Hershey's Special Dark has more theobromine in it than people think, and 1 large bar per day will drop Li level by a notch or two or three for some folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null0trooper Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Yes, caffeine (and theobromine - found in dark chocolate and black tea, and theophylline) lowers lithium levels. It can lower lithium level quite a bit. If you change caffeine intake quite a bit, you should have your lithium level rechecked. Is that because of, or in addition to, caffeine being a diuretic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The short version? Kind of. In the case of caffeine and its kin, these are methylated xanthines, and so they are increasing lithium clearance by increasing glomerular blood flow, which has a diuretic action. But this is very specific to the type of diuretic. Diuretic effect on lithium clearance very much depends on the mechanism of action of the diuretic in question. Xanthines also inhibit proximal sodium reabsorption (more on that below.) Where sodium goes, lithium goes. So there's a double hit there - increased glomerular flow which means increased lithium filtered out, decrease in proximal lithium reabsorption. The short-medium version. Simplified somewhat. If anyone wants to yell at me for leaving something out, you're right, I did. Lithium is filtered by the glomerulus and then reabsorbed in parallel with sodium in the proximal tubules (mainly.) In the distal tubule/collecting duct, the system is great at transporting sodium and water - but the tubular membrane will not filter lithium in the distal portion. Distally acting diuretics, such as the thiazides and spironolactone, will increase lithium level (a lot) when added to lithium therapy. HCTZ, for example, pumps out sodium (and other things) in the distal tubule - but not lithium, as the distal tubule doesn't transport lithium. With HCTZ/thiazide diuretics, lithium levels then rise because there's a compensatory reabsorption of sodium at the proximal end to try to maintain sodium balance - along with lithium , because lithium travels with sodium. Diuretics that have a more proximal mechanism of action (furosemide) don't alter lithium level much, as there's no need to compensate; they hit at the wrong point in the loop for compensation to occur. There are reports of furosemide increasing lithium level. Almost any common diuretic can potentially increase lithium level, if given in sufficient volume to dehydrate someone. The effect of the thiazides and other distal diuretics is more clearcut. I say this having taken a diuretic with lithium for a really long time. I tried to make this coherent but it really needs a drawing. edited again in an attempt at coherence. not getting there, am I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null0trooper Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 edited again in an attempt at coherence. not getting there, am I? Sooo... Lithium bodyguards Sodium something fierce in the Kidney Transit System. Of the three bus stations that water is supposed to be dropped off without Sodium getting lost, Xanthine diuretics boot Lithium off the bus, along with water and trash, at the only station that won't let Lithium back on. Lithium gets depressed and wanders on off. The brain ends up having to call in more replacements. But Thiazide diuretics dump the water and miscellaneous trash at the only station that won't let Lithium get off, so it stays on the bus and works on bulking up. Then there's Lasix, which could care less what Lithium and Sodium are up to, which is just as well because you're going to be in the bathroom a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Sooo... Lithium bodyguards Sodium something fierce in the Kidney Transit System. They're on the buddy system. Actually, it's not so much the buddy system. They go to the same school and wear the same geeky uniform and they do things together a lot. Of the three bus stations that water is supposed to be dropped off without Sodium getting lost,Sodium comes and goes. Water often follows it. Water is sodium's creepy stalker... Xanthine diuretics boot Lithium off the bus, along with water and trash, at the only station that won't let Lithium back on. Lithium gets depressed and wanders on off. The brain ends up having to call in more replacements.Xanthines also increase traffic and turnover at Grand Central Station (aka glomerular flow). There's just a lot more turnover at the bus depot overall. +HR... But Thiazide diuretics dump the Na and water and miscellaneous trash at the only main station that won't let Lithium get on or off, so it stays on the bus and works on bulking up.It's trapped. It gets out at the chaos at the depot, it escapes here and there, but, yes, it doesn't get to get out at the major exodus point. Then there's Lasix, which could care less what Lithium and Sodium are up to, which is just as well because you're going to be in the bathroom a lot. It kind of cares. But let's ignore it for now, because Silver's had a martini and has tortured this analogy as far as she can for one night (it's not a distal tortured analogy, though.) Yeesh, and she's referring to herself in the third person. Someone slap her, please. [timidly] better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamagotchi Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 You know, I'm actually glad this zombie thread was resurrected because I'm laughing out loud at Silver's last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 We have a bug that is resurrecting zombie threads I am sure of it.... but yeah, this one was cute. Oh how I miss silver. Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderk Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I totally miss her. She was responsible for de-lurking me. But I often wonder if that was a good thing....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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