Scientology is back?

[Wharghoul]

I thought they did away with the ad for this cult? You would think with the money Tom Cruise has he could afford a good psychiatrist.

[Dooga16]

Scientology is doing quite well. It has a lot of money relative to the amount of members it has. This is due in part to having many rich members. Secondly, they charge their members a lot financially. I don't even support freedom of religion applying to Scientology. I think it exploits vulnerable people who have MI. There was one case where a member died, I believe, because of Scientology's stance on psychiatry and its pseudo-scientific beliefs.

[Wharghoul]

On November 18, 1995, Lisa was involved in a minor car accident. She was apparently not hurt, but she got out of her car and took all her clothes off and seemed mentally unstable. She was taken to a hospital where she was physically evaluated as being unharmed, but the hospital wanted her to be psychologically cared for. However, some Scientologists arrived and stated that Lisa did not believe in psychiatry, and she checked out after a short evaluation and left with the Scientologists against the attending doctor's advice. She went with them to Room 174 of the Ft. Harrison Hotel for "rest and relaxation" according to the church, but church logs from Lisa's stay there from November 18 to her death December 5 show differently. Lisa was put on the Introspection Rundown that Scientology uses to handle those who have had a psychotic break. Some logs are missing, and a high ranking ex-Scientologist has written an affidavit in which he claims that the church has in the past destroyed documents that might get the church in trouble. Marty Rathbun, a former high-ranking Scientologist, revealed that he was responsible for the missing records;

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

Oh the irony...

[Wharghoul]

i dont tolerate or support scientology. if thats your "religion" then that is just dandy. however, leave me out of it. although, i have to admit, they have very inspirational television commercials.

It's not a religion tho, it's a cult that preys on people who need help.

[Swamp56]

On November 18, 1995, Lisa was involved in a minor car accident. She was apparently not hurt, but she got out of her car and took all her clothes off and seemed mentally unstable. She was taken to a hospital where she was physically evaluated as being unharmed, but the hospital wanted her to be psychologically cared for. However, some Scientologists arrived and stated that Lisa did not believe in psychiatry, and she checked out after a short evaluation and left with the Scientologists against the attending doctor's advice. She went with them to Room 174 of the Ft. Harrison Hotel for "rest and relaxation" according to the church, but church logs from Lisa's stay there  from November 18 to her death December 5 show differently. Lisa was put on the Introspection Rundown that Scientology uses to handle those who have had a psychotic break. Some logs are missing, and a high ranking ex-Scientologist has written an affidavit in which he claims that the church has in the past destroyed documents that might get the church in trouble. Marty Rathbun, a former high-ranking Scientologist, revealed that he was responsible for the missing records;

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

Oh the irony...

The person who did her autopsy noticed that the needle that was injected into her hand that would supply intravenous drugs was put in after she had died.  Really sad.

[Wharghoul]

[crtclms]

They charge money for each level of enlightment. Like 10k a level. That doesn't sound like a religion to me.

I had a friend who went through the first three levels. I was shocked, she was a brilliant and funny woman. She spent 30k+ on a cult, and tried to convince me and my friends that it wasn't really a religion, just an approach to life. She had fled from Iran after the Ayatolluh (sp?) Khomeini took power, so we found this especially upsetting.

This was in the very early 90s, prior to the US accepting it as a religon (thus giving it tax free status).

[Wharghoul]

I thought they did away with the ad for this cult? You would think with the money Tom Cruise has he could afford a good psychiatrist.

Money schmoney. There is nothing like being brainwashed for free by your friends.

Oh wait.....

Lol at least someone got my joke.

[NailFlower]

''There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance in the body''

what craziness!! do these people think this of everything, for example do they believe diabetes is real?

[Wharghoul]

''There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance in the body''

what craziness!! do these people think this of everything, for example do they believe diabetes is real?

Not sure, but don't forget the guy who founded it believed a tomato could feel pain...

[noob-leech]

Not sure, but don't forget the guy who founded it believed a tomato could feel pain...

I always thought that Hubby was playing a pair of balls in that picture. (... although he kinda murdered one of his sons who was gay...)

[Velvet Elvis]

We kept the Dianetics ad but got rid of the anti-psychiatry ones from the Scientology front group CCHR.

[Wharghoul]

We kept the Dianetics ad but got rid of the anti-psychiatry ones from the Scientology front group CCHR.

Oh, well that makes perfect sense then. lulz

[wondernut]

another oldie but goodie

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x433w9_scientology-explaining-the-tom-crui_shortfilms

I am related to someone who is on a mission to "expose" scientology but pretty much Tom did it already

boy oh boy do I hope a scientologist is around when I have my car accident ..I road a as a RN for a fire dept for 8 years because of Tom and his sage wisdom ... I know I had no clue what to do!!! thanks Tom!!!

[kdbee]

We kept the Dianetics ad but got rid of the anti-psychiatry ones from the Scientology front group CCHR.

But...we still know their stance on mental illness/psychiatry, etc.

Then again, if it's the only way for CB to pay the bills, I'd rather have the ad then no CB at all...

[NailFlower]

note to self: send a donation to crazyboards, already. ASAP

[crtclms]

It's not that they could be propagating misinformation, it is that they *are* propagating it. The issues with Big Pharma pushing meds have nothing to do with the meds' effectiveness. They are two completely separate issues.

And I agree, it is sad when it is necessary to force treatment. Except when someone is a danger to themselves or others, there isn't much choice. If they kill themselves, they will never have the opportunity to consent. And any person they hurt certainly didn't consent to it.

And there is a tendency to think psychiatric wards are like those from One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, which is just not the case anymore.

[Wharghoul]

Ok, I am going to give my two cents here and you are permitted to get mad at me if you choose.

Scientology to me appears to be a silly paranoid eccentric science fiction psychology originating with Xenu and the Thetans.

Xenu and the Thetans.

One thing I do appreciate about Scientology is that they give the heads up on the dark side of psychiatry.

They point to some of the dirty little secrets of psychiatric abuse.

Such as forced treatment, forced electroshock, the possibility that antipsychotics are brain damaging

(it's just that we don't have any better treatment than antipsychotics right now.)

But it could be that Scientology is propagating misinformation about psychiatry such as in saying there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.

So do two wrongs make a right?

I know that I have touched a nerve here, feel free to flame me.

Whatever good they do by pointing out the bad things about psychiatry is irrelevant when they have people dying of negligence. To me they're no different than that christian sect that doesn't believe in medical treatment.

[AirMarshall]

One thing I do appreciate about Scientology is that they give the heads up on the dark side of psychiatry.

They would really be doing us a favor if the exposed the dark side of Carpentry. You can't trust guys who write with square pencils. Have YOU ever seen a square pencil sharpener? Think about it!

They point to some of the dirty little secrets of psychiatric abuse.

Such as forced treatment,

Well there is nothing dirty nor secret about psychiatry. Forced treatment has been out of political fashion for over thirty years. Actually the dirty secret is that we should be forcing tens of thousands of mentally ill people to take meds and get the treatment they need to live a better life.

We don't have a "Homeless" problem. Most of those people would be bankrupt and back on the street in ninety days if you gave them the keys and title to a fully furnished house. What they need is committment to mandatory meds and therapy in a (presently nonexistent) system of community residential treatment centers. You know, what our state sanitariums used to do, but without the gothic architecture which is kinda neat.

forced electroshock,

Bullshit. Horsefeathers, old chap. Where? It's hardly used on a voluntary basis. We have how many thousands of CB members, and without looking I will bet a coffee that you can't find twelve members that have posted about having ECT.

[EDIT: I went thru all the posts in the ECT Forum, and the count is twelve: 11 members, one guest have posted about haveing recieved ECT. That is out of 8,000+ registereed members. NOT a very common treatment.]

possibility that antipsychotics are brain damaging

Yes and wearing sneakers to school is bad for your growing feet, which is why you must get a new pair of leather shoes every fall.

But it could be that Scientology is propagating misinformation about psychiatry such as in saying there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.

Actually I agree with them. It is not a completely accurate analogy. But it reasonably close, and most people can understand it. It doesnt' mean the meds don't work. Nobody can explain gravity or light. Doesn't mean they dont' exist or that we can't make use of them with a simpler analogy or model. hrmph.

A.M.

[Velvet Elvis]

And there is a tendency to think psychiatric wards are like those from One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, which is just not the case anymore.

The certification process and the psych ward HERE are EXACTLY like the movie. If lobotomies were legal here they would...

Where are you? Some third world hell hole?

[olga]

And there is a tendency to think psychiatric wards are like those from One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, which is just not the case anymore.

The certification process and the psych ward HERE are EXACTLY like the movie. If lobotomies were legal here they would...

Where are you? Some third world hell hole?

Yeah, I wondered about this, also. I've been in the psych ward in our local hospital, and although it's locked, once you're inside it's clean, pleasant, and the staff people were all very kind and attentive.

olga

[AirMarshall]

Most of your last statements are irrelevant.

Who cares what floor the locked ward is on? 33rd, or second subbasement. And just because you call it 'the dungeon' doesn't make it one.

If patients (i.e. YOU) were cooperative, they wouldn't need security now would they? And they wouldn't have any reason to bump or bang someone.

It isn't unreasonable to have a locked room or holding cell inside a locked floor. Sorry you don't like stainless steel, it's been fashionable for some time. Hopefully they got Martha Stewart to do a consult for the new construction.

And yes, mental evalations normally start in the ER/A&E, and whatever the doctor decides is what they follow. You want the janitors opinion too?

I personally thing community treatment committment is a great concept for those who can't take care of themselves. Beats being long term inpatient!

You have told us some pretty tall tales about this building in the past. I just don't believe they running a prison or torture center. You may not like the staff, but then they may not like you either.

**Look, it's obvious that you had one or more involuntary committments, and you don't like it so you are making them out to be evil and unholy. But they are really just ordinary guys trying to take care of us crazies at our worst moments. Quit being childish about this. Be civil with them, especially if you might go back in.

[Wharghoul]

From what I've heard state run institutions are pretty much like prisons, so I don't see any reason to not believe you.

[crtclms]

Survivor, there are several hospitals that admit psychiatric patients in Saskatoon. Could you please provide the web page to the one you were admitted to?

And who cares what the patients called a room? My Ivy league dorm referred to the basement as "the Dungeon." It was where most of the social activities in the dorm took place.

And Whargoul, "what [you've] heard" is anecdotal. Not to mention, state institutions also house the criminally insane, and have different types of wards.

[Wharghoul]

And Whargoul, "what [you've] heard" is anecdotal. Not to mention, state institutions also house the criminally insane, and have different types of wards.

Lol everyone's a fuckin expert here I guess. Have you been locked up in the loony bin? I never have so all I can go with is what I've heard from others that actually have. So what some of it may be exagerated, I'm sure it's still not a very fun experience.

[Wharghoul]

If memory serves me right there's been some issues raised with senior citizen care facilities and possible neglect/abuse... I guess we should just figure they're too old and senile to know what they're talking about tho.

[AirMarshall]

Survivor,

I'm sorry that you had to go to the hospital against your will, and how upsetting that must be.

I hope that you are able to reach a point of peace and acceptance.

Best, a.m.

[crtclms]

Whargoul, you are the opposite of an expert. Abuse the the elderly is well documented, which is the exactly my point. Your opinion is not well docmented.

Survivor, all the info on the net is from the hospital's point of view, I will have to ask my father about it when I am home next week. He has studied in-patient treatment conditions in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, and Italy.

[crtclms]

But I also just wanted to point out this has wandered far from the initial topic, which is that Scientoloty has some bead on the "true" impetus of the psychiatric community.

[Wharghoul]

Whargoul, you are the opposite of an expert. Abuse the the elderly is well documented, which is the exactly my point. Your opinion is not well docmented.

Survivor, all the info on the net is from the hospital's point of view, I will have to ask my father about it when I am home next week. He has studied in-patient treatment conditions in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, and Italy.

You're not an expert either you're just pretending to be one... Have you ever been comitted??? Were you there??? Sheesh why not just give her the benefit of doubt and move on.

[ka-mai]

They would really be doing us a favor if the exposed the dark side of Carpentry. You can't trust guys who write with square pencils. Have YOU ever seen a square pencil sharpener? Think about it!

As a matter of fact, I have AM. I use it all the time.

Sorry for the OT response.

[crtclms]

You're not an expert either you're just pretending to be one... Have you ever been comitted??? Were you there??? Sheesh why not just give her the benefit of doubt and move on.

But my father is. He has testified both for and against psychiatric wards.

And I have visited four in-patient wards, two criminal, and two civilian, in my career as an attorney. I was involved in the plaintiff side of suits against the two criminal wards.

I also have researched US commitment procedures and published a Legal Note on them.

Why don't you give *me* the benefit of the doubt. At least I have tried to objectively research Survivor's complaints. Your evidence is that you heard something. I heard the dish ran away with the spoon. That doesn't make it so.

[wondernut]

I know this is off topic to the first post but I have to say I have personally escorted people who flipped out in a clinic of our huge charity hosptial ..to lock down ..and really it feels and looks like a dungeon! Not that anyone tries to make folks lives hell but when all hell breaks loose and you have a ward full of people trying to kill themselves ...mutilate themselves and hurt other people ..and no place else to put them you have a bunch of screaming yelling people in various stages of severe mental illness in bad shape with a limited number of staff who btw have become pretty damn jaded over the years and years of dealing with chronic shortages of places to put people ..tired of pulling people off the streets and then only to see them come back in worse shape ...no nonsense folks trying to hold down a wild fort ..yeah it can be "Hell" and it can be awful but it can also be the safest place for the time being for both the patient and others around them until they get "stable" again

I dont now if I side with anyone here but I do see how being in a crisis yourself and being put into restraints to help you not cut off a limb because it has a bomb in it (YES that is a true personal scenerio I cared for) ...in a darkened room with people wailing can seem like a dungeon and the nurses and other staff can seem like demons ...but really right now this is what we have and if there are better things then lets find them

Scientology as far as I am concerned is not a demon unless you let it be one ..I think myself it is a stupid cult that plays of greed and the need to feel so much better than anyone else ..their opinions on mental illness make no sense considering their leader was mentally ill

my son walked up to a Scientologist in LA and asked "Have you met L. Ron? I have! he visits me daily" and the guy was dumbfounded

I feel badly this thread was kind of put into the flames but I wonder really if that was not the intent? why not talk more about scientology itself it is really interesting how a lousy sci fi writer could gain and keep such power amongst the rich and famous! all at a price they can pull the bad from your life!!! ..and here is a good write up from a guy I know

check it out if you are a reader wondering what the deal with Scientology is ..here you go

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/books/buy-a-bridge.htm

[nalgas]

They would really be doing us a favor if the exposed the dark side of Carpentry. You can't trust guys who write with square pencils. Have YOU ever seen a square pencil sharpener? Think about it!

As a matter of fact, I have AM. I use it all the time.

That's kind of neat, but it's also so cheating. I've always had to just use a knife on those. Heh.

[Anna]

I find scientology kind of fascinating, myself, being as how it's one of the longest running and most influential cults out there.... I've read a lot of the scientology expose books, and the whole thing is really pretty interesting. Lived right near a big Hari Krishna complex, growing up, too.

It pays to learn about the cults BEFORE you get indoctrinated, IMHO. It's sort of like getting vacinnated.

Anna

[Wharghoul]

You're not an expert either you're just pretending to be one... Have you ever been comitted??? Were you there??? Sheesh why not just give her the benefit of doubt and move on.

But my father is. He has testified both for and against psychiatric wards.

And I have visited four in-patient wards, two criminal, and two civilian, in my career as an attorney. I was involved in the plaintiff side of suits against the two criminal wards.

I also have researched US commitment procedures and published a Legal Note on them.

Why don't you give *me* the benefit of the doubt. At least I have tried to objectively research Survivor's complaints. Your evidence is that you heard something. I heard the dish ran away with the spoon. That doesn't make it so.

Whatever a few posts ago you said my opinion is not well docmented. Now you're saying your father has testified against psychiatric wards. This is really going no where tho, but I'm probably more likely to listen to what someone says that has actually been there and take it for what it is.

[crtclms]

Um, read my posts a little more carefully.

I have never been committed, but I have been in psychiatric wards. One county jail, one state prison, and two general population.

My father is a research psychiatrist. He is a forensic psychiatrist. He still testifies in court regularly. He probably did some of the primary research on medications you are on. Sorry if that bums you out.

[sorrel]

It's sort of like getting vacinnated.

Not really; vaccines serve a function.

[Wharghoul]

Um, read my posts a little more carefully.

I have never been committed, but I have been in psychiatric wards. One county jail, one state prison, and two general population.

My father is a research psychiatrist. He is a forensic psychiatrist. He still testifies in court regularly. He probably did some of the primary research on medications you are on. Sorry if that bums you out.

I'm thinking visiting there and actually being comitted would be a bit different, just like visiting a jail and actually being locked up yourself would be a bit different. I can't really be arsed to argue about this anymore, but I've known people who were locked up in prison and when they said how horrible it was I didn't question it, I just took it for it was. Sometimes people should just give others the benefit of doubt once in a while.

[nalgas]

I find scientology kind of fascinating, myself, being as how it's one of the longest running and most influential cults out there.... I've read a lot of the scientology expose books, and the whole thing is really pretty interesting.

It's good that my immediate reaction to that was, "No way. It's brand new. Give it a couple millennia before giving it so much credit by calling it a long-running and influential cult like Christianity/Judaism/Zoroastrianism/<insert old religion here-ism>." Those couple sentences of yours describe my feelings on religion in general. I'm still kind of sad that I missed the traveling Scientology anti-psychiatry museum exhibit when it was in town here. I found out about it something like three days after it left after being here for a whole month, which was disappointing. Probably would've been fascinatingly bizarre to see.

It's sort of like getting vacinnated.

Not really; vaccines serve a function.

I assume the comparison was that being exposed to the vaccine informs your immune system about the virus in a safe way, which protects you from being infected by it in the future, and learning about a cult in a safe way before they try to indoctrinate you and drag you in similarly prepares your brain to defend against it in the future. Memetic immunity, I guess?

As far as the other argument that's come out of this thread, it seems like Wharghoul's trying to support anecdotal and subjective experiences as more important than stuff like actual data. I don't doubt that some people have horrible experiences like that sometimes in some places. Without more to back that up than "some guy told me", that doesn't really tell us anything about the general state of things. It could be anywhere from that "some guy's experience" being completely out of the ordinary, while everyone else has a wonderful time, all the way to that guy who told you how horrible it was was actually being lucky that it wasn't even worse. Hence the need for some sort of real data to figure out where in between those two extremes things actually are (which probably varies a whole lot depending on a whole bunch of things, but you get the idea).

[Wharghoul]

It's sort of like getting vacinnated.

Not really; vaccines serve a function.

People have died from vaccines... I guess there is something in common with scientology after all.

[sorrel]

Never mind, I totally misinterpreted the original point of the vaccine analogy. I think.

[nalgas]

People have died from vaccines... I guess there is something in common with scientology after all.

And even more people have died from not getting vaccines than from getting them, so Scientology must be good for you, on average! Let's see how far we can stretch this and make it completely irrelevant... Oh, I hear Scientology causes autism, too. Yeah.

[Anna]

I assume the comparison was that being exposed to the vaccine informs your immune system about the virus in a safe way, which protects you from being infected by it in the future, and learning about a cult in a safe way before they try to indoctrinate you and drag you in similarly prepares your brain to defend against it in the future. Memetic immunity, I guess?

That is what I meant.

There are fair arguments for all organized religions being similar to cults, certainly. Especially the ones that want you to tithe, etc. I think, that being said, those who know anything very much about scientology (and there are some really interesting accounts from people who have left, about what it was like) would agree that it can be highly damaging to many, particularly those who may need medical treatment for something. One of the major premises of the religion is that if you are spiritually fit, you won't get sick, and spiritual "remidies" are applied rather than medical ones.

Anna

[Wharghoul]

People have died from vaccines... I guess there is something in common with scientology after all.

And even more people have died from not getting vaccines than from getting them, so Scientology must be good for you, on average! Let's see how far we can stretch this and make it completely irrelevant... Oh, I hear Scientology causes autism, too. Yeah.

Everytime someone becomes a scientologist, god kills a kitten.

[Wharghoul]

This is a really good vid about the inner workings of scientology...

http://www.youtube.c...cVBJPGeEio&NR=1

I just got done watching them all.

[Anymouse]

Can we substitute an ad for "Purina Dog Chow" or "Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker" for the "Dianetics.org" ad that keeps appearing next to the BP Forum? I mean really, Scientology has about as much chance around here as Wicca. As a matter of fact, Scientology has "less" chance than Wicca. As a matter of fact, you can really buy, point to, show someone what Purina Dog Chow is. You can even show someone what Wicca is. But no one can figure out an E-metre is.

-James. Wicca. Carpe Noctum.

[mudpuppy]

I'm as liable to complain about a Purina Dog Chow [aka, crap in a bag] as you are about Dianetics. If we take one down, we start a slippery slope.

The ads are necessary to keep CB afloat. The really extreme ads were already removed, and the rest... well, they aren't hurting anyone.

If the ads really really bother you, you can always donate to CB more, in the hopes that we could fund our own site and end our dependance on ads to keep us going.

[Velvet Elvis]

This is the second thread complaining about this.

If they want to spend their money here, I'm not going to stop them.

[r.mcmurphy]

that outfit preys on the desperate so they may get some hits on our site as many of us are so behind the 8 ball with mental health problems.

[mudpuppy]

Well, we can stop generating funds via ads, in which case, no one gets help.

[r.mcmurphy]

i don't suggest to stop using their revenue-it is not my place to do so. i merely point out that they are predatory in the pursuit of recruits and their money.

[recoverymouse]

clicking on their ad is the best revenge...

[mudpuppy]

Reading an ad that doesn't contain "triggering" material isn't capable of harming anyone.

Anymore than reading an ad for a diet is going to make someone lose weight.

[mudpuppy]

If you don't like it, do something about it.

How 'bout you pay to keep CB running for a year?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to click the links a bunch.

[mudpuppy]

If it bothers you that much than either- donate enough to CB that the site can afford to be run ad-free, or just use ad-block.

Either way, quit whining.  You sound like a kid.

Strike that, my five year old doesn't whine this much.

[recoverymouse]

If it bothers you that much than either- donate enough to CB that the site can afford to be run ad-free, or just use ad-block.

Either way, quit whining. You sound like a kid.

Strike that, my five year old doesn't whine this much.

How is informing people about something whinning?

It was information the first time you said it. Repeating yourself is a form of whining.

[mudpuppy]

Ooh, spam the boards.

Please.  

[mudpuppy]

Oh, by the way slick.  By continuously typing the name of that group?  You're bringing even more ads to the site.

The ads at the top of the thread are based on the content.

[Mayteana]

This isn't worth having two threads about. Topic merged.

~ May

[Velvet Elvis]

and closed