effing fluffy white lighters

[withing]

Warning mini rant to follow, and if you are a hug/hug everything is wonderful person - don't read past here.

So I joined this yahoo group at the suggestion of one of my on-line friends. It's a single's group and there aren't many people in it. Yeah, I found out why. The owner of the group is pagan, and while I have nothing against pagans (I was one myself once) this woman is what I call a "fluffy white lighter". She's one of those people who think that everyone in the world is good at heart and we should love them and cherish them and all that happy horse shit, and if anyone on the list doesn't agree with her, well, you're just a bad person, aren't you? She posted some bullshit about how we should be forgiving of our abusers because "everyone has a past" and that makes what they do okay, as long as they repent and *ask* for our forgiveness. Really? so every time someone's abusive and asks for forgiveness we should forgive them? Especially since they say they'll never do it again? No, I don't think so. She even had the nerve, the fucking nerve, to say to me "it's no wonder you're single" when I said that I didn't feel the same way and I would never forgive or love my crazy ex.

Fuck that shit. Needless to say, my membership didn't last very long in that group.

God! I hate people like that. They get under my skin and make me want to punch walls. Not to get into a religious debate, but there are evil people in the world, an I am not required to love or forgive them. I don't think that makes me a horrible person, thank you very much.

Not only that but there was another woman in the group begging everyone to "please don't fight, everyone should just be nice to each other." Uh, yeah, I wasn't rude (I'm hardly rude when I'm the new kid on the block, it takes me years on a site to start being anywhere near rude. ), I simply stated my opinion. I don't understand people who expect everyone to agree with everyone else. It's not going to happen, especially online where anonymity gives people more freedom to state their mind (and yes, be ruder than they would normally be).

grrr... I've run out of steam, but things like that still piss me off.

[water]

She's one of those people who think that everyone in the world is good at heart and we should love them and cherish them and all that happy horse shit, and if anyone on the list doesn't agree with her, well, you're just a bad person, aren't you?

I hate people like that. They are hypocritical and annoy me immensely. There is something different about saying that there maybe some good in everyone and enforcing your one sided narrow minded opinions about other people. I am however a cock-eyed optimist (when not depressed) and have known to be naive about people.

[Stickler]

NO. NOT AT ALL.

Absolving someone of what they did because of their past DEMEANS ANYONE WHO HAS "A PAST" AND HAS TO WORK AGAINST THEIR OWN EVIL IMPULSES.

I am a good person, but I'm quite well aware of the evil person I could have been, had I had just a little less impulse control, and a little less of a conscience. I have a streak of sadism that's a mile wide. I only let it out on pixellated people, which, given time to play video games, I gun down with abandon and glee.

I work hard to not be a bad person, because I have it in me to be a truly despicable person, and I'm not going to be by dint of will.

I could have done the Columbine thing back in '88, and would have, given two elements: a more active/agitated flavor of depression in my teenage years, and access to good weaponry. This was before Columbine, but being verbally bullied was making me want to kill myself-so I thought it would be greatly appropriate to take the people who were screwing with me along.

So to say to me "Oh, you should forgive people who are bad, because they have a past," No, that is such an insult to me and my own struggle that it's just breathtaking.

BTW, I'm Pagan, and even though I'm influenced by Buddhism in practice, I still tend to be very much of the scorched-monastery brand of Paganism in morality. Forgiveness is not something I'm inclined to naturally, and I don't think it's something that belongs to the original Pagan religions. It's a Christian thing, and I think it's BS to demand it of anyone. Until someone has paid for their damages, and dearly, they cannot be forgiven, as far as I'm concerned.

These are the cultures that brought you dueling, tribal feuds, and the paying of bloodprice. Celts kept the skulls of their slain enemies as mantelpiece decor. Do they sound like the kind of people to forgive and forget, for the mere asking? I don't think so.

[0detta]

Yeah, forgiveness is certainly a christian concept, although I don't think it's the only belief system that has it. But the fluffy lighter chick isn't talking about true forgiveness so much as making excuses for people who do horrible things. Excuses are crap, and so is fake repentance when you go back and do again what you sought forgiveness for.

It sounds like she has never, ever experienced the kinds of abuse we read about here, or she has and she is trying to deny how horrible it was because she fears the devastation it would cause her psyche.

[bpladybug]

Well I am pretty much on the huggy optomist spectrum. However some people are evil, vicious evil and deserve a slow painful death. And no one has the right to tell someone who has suffered evil and abuse when or if they should forgive. That is just idiocy.

[Guest Recluse]

She posted some bullshit about how we should be forgiving of our abusers because "everyone has a past" and that makes what they do okay, as long as they repent and *ask* for our forgiveness. Really? so every time someone's abusive and asks for forgiveness we should forgive them? Especially since they say they'll never do it again? No, I don't think so.

Sounds a lot like 'turning the other cheek'. You know, a lot of those fluffy-bunny types don't like being compared to Christianity, when in reality, what they are practicing is Christianity Lite. To strike a nerve, I'd point that out if I were you. She's rebelled against Christianity in some fit of 'I wanna be a unique snowflake!' but hasn't strayed too far from the tree, has she?

Also, 'turning the other cheek' invites it to get punched. Maybe that happy martyr bullshit works for some people, but in my experience, pacifism is pure stupidity.

She even had the nerve, the fucking nerve, to say to me "it's no wonder you're single" when I said that I didn't feel the same way and I would never forgive or love my crazy ex.

Wait wait wait waitwaitwait...so lemmeseeifIgotthis. Fluffy bunny is making jabs at your relationship status because you disagreed with her? So much for this 'forgiving her abusers' crap. She's just as much of a vindictive bitch as anyone else, she just doesn't want to believe it...

I despise when people bolt themselves to the moral high-ground and forget they're still standing in shit. Sometimes they need to be reminded.

Anyway - Sorry the fluffy bunnies got under your skin. I hate those types.

If you're still practicing, you need Thelemites and Chaotes. 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.'

We might be just as crazy, but at least we haven't forgotten where our balls/ovaries are.

[wondernut]

I am extremely forgiving for almost anything ....but there are times in this world if I forgive then I forget ..and then I end up in the cycle of anger and pain again ..

I am not a Pagan or a Christian..I am nothing ....a complete Athiest.. right now someone is begging my forgivenss for being a jerk ...his is under the Christian belief that if I forgive him it is water under the bridge and all will be fine ..but he has and says he has absolutely not intention of changing himself in any way shape or form ..and has progressed to even more stupid behavior ...he literally begs for it because he thinks he will be absolved on some level if I say "I forgive you" I do not even think he really cares if I do ..he just wants me to say it...

but pretty much I am a woman of action ..and he has done nothing to earn forgivness for being a shit to me and other people ..so I just dont forgive him ..why absolve someone who thinks they are off the hook because they confessed and repented?

Personally I have dropped my anger for him and flushed it right down the toilet ...but will I forgive him? absolutely not he is an ass

same thing with the Trog at my work ..each and every single time I forgive and forget with her she starts up again ..so I know the cycle ..forgive ..get complacent and the fire sets ablaze again ...

work hard and change and maybe I will consider it!

most things I totally forgive easily but they are just things not a cyle of abusive mean behavior that comes back each and every time

I do not get obsession to be forgiven or forgive..but I hope I have never done anything to hurt anyone ....seriously ..I have worked hard during my life to be a nice person ..abrasive and annoying sometimes maybe but I am very nice inside ..I do want the best for everyone including myself and I am not naturally mean..if I become mean ...If I fuck up and do something hurtful ..the only person who can absolve me is me and only by doing something physically and mentally to repair the situation ..but not under the guise of needing forgiveness just because I think it is important not to be mean ..for me

being a good person takes a lot of work sometimes and really is not about forgivness

I hope this makes sense my state of mind is not the greatest right now

[themadhatter]

Damn it I had a really nice ranting post going but my computer ate it somehow. Since I don't have the time to rewrtie everything here is a quick recap.

I too hate people that think everyone should just get along and that anger/hatred to a point are not healthy emotions. I hate my ex wife and her family with a passion till the day I die. They are holier than thou people that pretend I don't exist. So much for forgiveness. In my world you need to earn forgiveness over a long period of time and have to really show me you changed before I will even contemplate forgiving you. But don't think I will ever forget. I think along the line of bpladybug, some people are just evil, pure evil and deserve to have horrible things happen to them. I have many people like that in my past and believe me if I was as evil as they were I would be in jail myself. That being said I cannot tolerate this type of sillyness that everyone is good and we should just turn the other cheek. I have tried that in the past and have just been hurt more by it.

I think it needs to be said that I am a lapse catholic because I tried to live that life and it almost killed me on several occasions. I don't go out to batter religion but I think people that act holier than though are mostly full of crap and live in a bubble. There are evil people in the world and I think at times we all give in to some evil/badness in our lives. Hell I my avatar means bad/evil and I have it tattooed on my forearm. I have done things that are just mean but I don't expect forgiveness from my enemies and frankly don't want it.

Bottomline being these everyone get along people really get to me and I have found through life experiences that most of these people are hypocrites, just like the person who judged you and talked down to you because you didn't agree with her.

I wish my other post didn't get lost, it made me feel good to call a lot of people in my life out even though they will never read this. It just felt so damn good to put their bull into the light.

[withing]

Recluse, I dig what you're saying about her being "Christian Lite". It explains a lot of her actions, such as how she tended to throw scripture around (cites the verse even), which made me wonder if she were an actual pagan, but she said outright... "I'm such and such a Pagan" when someone asked if she were Wiccan. She didn't like Wiccans because of the rituals involved.

No matter. I'm out of that group, and she's gone from my life forever.

I'm Agnostic by the way. Forgiving is not part of my belief system. I'm generally very much a "live in the now" type of person so this whole concept of forgiveness is utterly foreign to me. I'm more in the "forget" realm of the "forgive and forget" equation. Mostly if someone asks me for forgiveness I'm like, "what? you're still worried about that? that was days/hours/weeks ago. Just don't do it anymore and we're good." I guess though, that some wounds are deeper and take longer to heal than others (such as the ones my crazy ex left on me, hence the anger when she said "forgive and forget).

[Mim]

I believe in letting things go, but think that forgiveness as a concept is overrated. If someone wrongs me, I'll probably look past that eventually, unless what happened was really bad. Time has a way of rubbing the edges off things, and restoring perspective. Do I believe that I should let it go if my brother's wife is having a bad day, takes something out of context, and throws a big old guilt trip? I generally do let it go, yes. She's got her fair share of problems, just as I have mine, and I know she doesn't really mean to let hers get the better of her. Have I let go of the shitty way my father treats me? No, and I don't feel inclined to let him in again any time soon, because I know that he did mean it, and I'm certain that it wasn't just in my head.

As for everyone agreeing with one another and getting along, sadly I am that person who would rather just keep their mouth shut than cause friction, and who feels horrible in the catbird seat. Of course, that's a personal anxiety thing, and I recognize it as kind of a foolish conviction even as I'm prey to it.

[Anna]

There is a difference between internal forgiveness and boundaries

And letting everyone in your life that has hurt you abuse you and run over you because they have apologized.

Fluffly light people often make this distinguishing mistake, which can be annoying and dangerous to one's self protective impulses.

To give you an example, I have genuintely forgiven my family for some shit they did growing up. It doesn't bother me to be around them, I don't fixate on what happened, in fact if my dad were ever to bring SOME stuff up, I would probably run from the room going "I don't want to discuss this!"

I wouldn't leave my kid anywhere near him without supervision/a trusted adult, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so, either.

However, having spent some time in the bitterness realm (I don't really believe people who say they just live in the "forget" realm, they tend, IMHO to be nastily bitter for the most part, even when unaware of it) of lack of forgiveness, I don't really recommend that either.

There is a healthy medium in my opinion. I genuinely forgive my parents, I wouldn't let them do some of the shit they did to me EVER again, and yet I can still have a nice, cordial relationship with both of them (in fact, my mom, who was physically abusive growing up, is one of my fav. people. The worst thing she ever did was rip a big chunk of hair out of my head, which sucked). She, who I can tell has GENUINELY changed, I do not have a problem leaving my kid around. At the time she was fucked up nuts on steroids, and I have some compassion for that, given some of my past mood states. She did say sorry to me at one point, in a minimal kind of way, it was fair enough, I didn''t fixate on it. As the out of control teen, I am GENUINELY sure that I hurt her QUITE as much as she hurt me, even though I was technically the "kid".

That said, I need to keep (and sometimes repeat) boundaries, rules and limits with my mom, sometimes in a rather um, FIRM way. There was one time I ended up shrieking at her like a harridan in the parking lot of an arbys following attending Wrestlemania with my kid because she was verbally rude to my husband and undermining my authority (come to think, that was a day our family probably belonged on Jerry Springer, heh). She hasn't done it since. I really let her have it, and she realized what she did was wrong.

I certainly agree that some things are, if not unforgivable, need to be punished and those people locked up to keep society safe. I also believe that the victims of such acts are the ones who have the right to forgive (or not) what happened.

I ALSO believe in the therapeutic value of GENUINE forgiveness. I genuinely forgive my dad, even if he actively probed at me to find out if I remembered some probably very skeezy shit (and my tranquil response to that was a total non-response, as I have no desire to discuss it with him). I just enjoy the parts of the relationship that are enjoyable and enjoy his good qualities, which are many.

I don't personally believe in the eye for the eye concept. I don't think it's healthy for anyone, and leads to more overall anger and energy wasted on the abuser(s) an whatnot, and people with the capacity to both forgive and maintain appropriate boundaries seem happiest, in my opinion.

Again, these are merely my opinions. Everyone's quite free to do whatever the hell they want.

I do have compassion for abusers who were abused. Not everyone gets the skill to check their own evil impulses until late in life, sometimes ever. I always think about it from the "what would it be like to live inside that person's skin" for example. It's got to be horrible. I feel for those folks, and I HAVE worked with perpetrators, and they do sometimes feel bad, although it can sometimes take a tremendous amount of work for them to get there, man.

But is it easier to grow up with no MI/ no trauma/ no big major issues, and come out with good self control? Hell the fuck yeah! Come on, here. Lets be real. I have MORE admiration for people who have had a fucked up life and gotten over it than the normals. And more compassion for those with a fucked up life who HAVEN'T gotten over it than the normals.

Either way, no one is going to abuse me in my life again, that is for damn sure. But, I don't have to hate them while I am fighting them off.

Anna

[Catnapper]

Good topic, I also dislike and distrust those who feel that everyone contains goodness and we should all just get along. It's a bit too simplistic and unrealistic for my taste.

Probably the most freeing and worthwhile thing any mental health practictioner ever said to me was one of my favorite pdocs who said, "Sometimes you find out things about people, and you move on." This was said in response to my telling him that I was no longer in contact with a couple of my siblings, by my choice, due to things they had done in the past.

Forgiveness is a good concept that I generally agree with (and I'm not a Christian), but self-preservation takes precendence.