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Asperger's or Schizoid Personality Disorder


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Yeah, that differential is not the easiest in the world and some testing and a really detailed history including of childhood is going to be the way to go. I say well trained psychologist and some testing might be your best bet, like Stacia suggests.

Anna

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I might be interested to know too. My mom keeps insisting she thinks I have some kind of aspergers because I'm not social and she says I focus a lot more than most people on one subject sometimes. I don't think I am though. I think I'm just schizoid. (I think)

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  • 1 month later...

I'd get an ASD assesment first. However because ASD is pervasive it will have also been there as a child and be continuing, where as Schizoid PD will not have been present as a child.

Need to differentiate the schizoid state and the schizoid character here. The schizoid character is born schizoid and dies schizoid. The schizoid state is transient and common to many disorders such PTSD and psychosis.

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I don't know much about Asperger's. I run a support group for those in the schizoid and schizophrenic spectrum (which includes AvPD). Most of what is diagnosed as schizophrenia is nothing more than untreated trauma. I think the Finns are right schizophrenia is rare, 1 in 100,000.

Here are a couple of traits I use to differentiate the schizoid character and the schizoid state which maybe useful in this discussion. First, the schizoid character is one of repressed emotions as opposed to suppressed emotions of the schizoid state. Those is a schizoid state will show some emotions, they have a conscious, they will have beliefs and hopes-- these become detached in the schizoid state but they are still there. The schizoid character is never lonely while those in the schizoid state will miss companionship. The chief complaint of those in a schizoid state is loneliness. The schizoid character will usually not dream while nightmares are common to the schizoid state (lucid dreaming is different story). The schizoid state is almost always related to trauma bring up this trauma will usually get an emotional response. The schizoid character borders both psychopathic and psychotic traits-- the schizoid character will have a life long history of violence and/or psychotic breaks. The schizoid character is rare, schizoid state is something everyone has experienced.

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I don't know much about Asperger's. I run a support group for those in the schizoid and schizophrenic spectrum (which includes AvPD). Most of what is diagnosed as schizophrenia is nothing more than untreated trauma. I think the Finns are right schizophrenia is rare, 1 in 100,000.

Here are a couple of traits I use to differentiate the schizoid character and the schizoid state which maybe useful in this discussion. First, the schizoid character is one of repressed emotions as opposed to suppressed emotions of the schizoid state. Those is a schizoid state will show some emotions, they have a conscious, they will have beliefs and hopes-- these become detached in the schizoid state but they are still there. The schizoid character is never lonely while those in the schizoid state will miss companionship. The chief complaint of those in a schizoid state is loneliness. The schizoid character will usually not dream while nightmares are common to the schizoid state (lucid dreaming is different story). The schizoid state is almost always related to trauma bring up this trauma will usually get an emotional response. The schizoid character borders both psychopathic and psychotic traits-- the schizoid character will have a life long history of violence and/or psychotic breaks. The schizoid character is rare, schizoid state is something everyone has experienced.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by schizoid character, but I'm kind of assuming you mean schizoid personality disorder, except that it's really nothing like what you describe. The hallmark of schizoid pd is a lack of interest in social interaction. It seems to be heritable, and biologically based, not caused by trauma. There's no research I've ever seen showingg an association between schizoid pd and violent behavior.

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I think I may have schizoid PD. Here are the differences that I can think of:

Autism runs in families, because it appears to have a genetic component. So if you have autism, one or both parents probably shows signs of autism. There is some speculation, however, that schizoid PD could be a milder form of schizophrenia, which also runs in families. But, I don't favor the schizophrenia hypothesis myself.

I think that personally, my schizoid characteristics are a reaction to events in childhood. My parents are gregarious (definitely not autistic), but I think my mom has a different personality disorder (histrionic). My dad may also have a personality disorder. So, I suspect that a parent with a personality disorder can cause a PD in their child, but not necessarily the same one.

Autism has other symptoms apart from social isolation. If you have any of the other symptoms characteristic of autism, that lends support to the autism diagnosis (I won't list them here).

Autism is considered a neurological condition that prevents you from perceiving certain things (or at least it's very deeply rooted). So, if you have ever had normal interactions with other people, that would suggest that you don't have autism. I have had plenty of normal interactions with other people. I just have lots of emotional triggers and I think I was improperly socialized, so having relationships tends to end up causing me pain. I think my attention disorder plays a part, too, because I have a hard time paying attention to another person. I get distracted by my own random thoughts. After I haven't had contact with someone on a regular basis, I tend to get caught up in my own crap and forget to maintain contact with the other person. So my relationships tend to wither over time.

Part of schizoid PD involves not getting much pleasure out of events in your life. The stereotypical Asperger person has an obsessive interest in something other people would find boring, such as a bus schedule. Schizoid PD does not involve obsessive interests. In fact, I think it would be the contrary. If you have a hard time deriving pleasure from anything, then you are not likely to have passionate interests. Of course, if the Asperger person has comorbid depression, that could lead to constricted affect and lack of pleasure in activities. But I think it should be possible to tell the difference.

People with autism genuinely don't know how to interact with other people. So, if they are taught how to interact, they should be able to improve. People with schizoid PD don't need to be taught how to interact with people, they show a lack of interest in doing so. So I think you would expect an autistic person to complain about "not getting it" as pertains to social behavior, whereas a schizoid person would not.

Autistic people often find it extremely hard to make eye contact and display strange affect. A person with schizoid PD would not have difficulty making eye contact if he wanted to, and his affect would be constricted, but not strange.

I don't think there is a particular reason why you couldn't have both autism and schizoid PD. Autism is thought of as a brain disorder, so you have it from early childhood. If an autistic person became frustrated with social interaction in childhood, and subsequently developed a lack of any interest in trying as an adult, then you could reasonably say that he has both autism and schizoid PD. However, since social problems are considered part of autism, I think schizoid traits would be subsumed into the autism umbrella diagnosis and considered secondary complications.

Hope this helps.

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by schizoid character, but I'm kind of assuming you mean schizoid personality disorder, except that it's really nothing like what you describe.

I was going to say the same thing. I'm not sure what "schizoid character" is, but it doesn't sound like schizoid PD.

The hallmark of schizoid pd is a lack of interest in social interaction. It seems to be heritable, and biologically based, not caused by trauma. There's no research I've ever seen showingg an association between schizoid pd and violent behavior.

My understanding is that there are different perspectives on what causes schizoid PD, but there is a dearth of research on the subject. I have read everything I could find on the internet about schizoid PD, which is not a great deal. There does not seem to be a lot written about it in books, either. People with schizoid PD are much less likely to present to a clinician than, say, someone with borderline PD, which would contribute to the lack of knowledge about it.

I am pretty sure that I have schizoid PD, though, because it describes me pretty well. My parents do not have it, but my paternal grandfather may have qualified for the diagnosis. You could posit that there is some kind of "social gene" that is lacking in schizoid PD, or that it is genetically related to schizophrenia. However, there are other members of my family that I think have different personality disorders. So you could conclude that there is either a genetic basis for personality disorders generally, or you could conclude that parents with personality disorders tend to socialize their kids improperly, and thereby give their kids personality disorders (although not necessarily the same one). I prefer to believe that I was born normal and was improperly raised by my parents. This is partly for personal reasons, and partly because I have a scientific problem with assigning traits to hypothetical genes when we know absolutely nothing about how such a gene might work. We have very little understanding of how the brain gives rise to the mind, so ascribing behaviors to some as yet undiscovered gene impedes knowledge rather than enhances it. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that children learn things from their parents, so it would be much more illuminating in the short run to look for possible ways that behaviors could be transferred by learning. Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by schizoid character, but I'm kind of assuming you mean schizoid personality disorder, except that it's really nothing like what you describe.

I was going to say the same thing. I'm not sure what "schizoid character" is, but it doesn't sound like schizoid PD.

The hallmark of schizoid pd is a lack of interest in social interaction. It seems to be heritable, and biologically based, not caused by trauma. There's no research I've ever seen showingg an association between schizoid pd and violent behavior.

My understanding is that there are different perspectives on what causes schizoid PD, but there is a dearth of research on the subject. I have read everything I could find on the internet about schizoid PD, which is not a great deal. There does not seem to be a lot written about it in books, either. People with schizoid PD are much less likely to present to a clinician than, say, someone with borderline PD, which would contribute to the lack of knowledge about it.

I am pretty sure that I have schizoid PD, though, because it describes me pretty well. My parents do not have it, but my paternal grandfather may have qualified for the diagnosis. You could posit that there is some kind of "social gene" that is lacking in schizoid PD, or that it is genetically related to schizophrenia. However, there are other members of my family that I think have different personality disorders. So you could conclude that there is either a genetic basis for personality disorders generally, or you could conclude that parents with personality disorders tend to socialize their kids improperly, and thereby give their kids personality disorders (although not necessarily the same one). I prefer to believe that I was born normal and was improperly raised by my parents. This is partly for personal reasons, and partly because I have a scientific problem with assigning traits to hypothetical genes when we know absolutely nothing about how such a gene might work. We have very little understanding of how the brain gives rise to the mind, so ascribing behaviors to some as yet undiscovered gene impedes knowledge rather than enhances it. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that children learn things from their parents, so it would be much more illuminating in the short run to look for possible ways that behaviors could be transferred by learning. Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

I think some of the genetic patterns associated with schizophrenia are also associated with schizoid pd.

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Id probably get diagnosed with schizoid PD.. Im very asocial among other things. I see this as a result of PTSD.

I get written up at work all the time for being 'rude' but actually whats going on is that social contact is painful and I avoid it like the plague. =(

Id imagine this is a transient state. That if I was able to navigate the source of the anxiety and overcome it, the asocial tendencies would subside too.

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Id probably get diagnosed with schizoid PD.. Im very asocial among other things. I see this as a result of PTSD.

I get written up at work all the time for being 'rude' but actually whats going on is that social contact is painful and I avoid it like the plague. =(

Id imagine this is a transient state. That if I was able to navigate the source of the anxiety and overcome it, the asocial tendencies would subside too.

If it's transient, it's not a personality disorder.

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by schizoid character, but I'm kind of assuming you mean schizoid personality disorder, except that it's really nothing like what you describe. The hallmark of schizoid pd is a lack of interest in social interaction. It seems to be heritable, and biologically based, not caused by trauma. There's no research I've ever seen showingg an association between schizoid pd and violent behavior.

The basis of my thinking on schizoid is that of Guntrip and Fairbairn and Object Relation Theory. I'm familiar with the DSM's definition of schizoid personality disorder and Millon's work-- both of which to me is complete rubbish.

The schizoid personality disorder (as defined in the DSM) would include both the schizoid character and the schizoid state because it can not distinguish between them.

The schizoid character is probably genetic. The schizoid state is the result of trauma. I speak of disordered individuals here-- not introverts. Introversion is a personality trait not a disorder.

The psychopathic schizoid is the forensic term for the violent schizoid-- these are unique entities which are distinct from psychopaths or sociopaths.

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Thats right, its a lifelong thing. I didnt have avoidant traits until I got PTSD. My doc has made some comments about it but I dont believe shes right.

Id probably get diagnosed with schizoid PD.. Im very asocial among other things. I see this as a result of PTSD.

I get written up at work all the time for being 'rude' but actually whats going on is that social contact is painful and I avoid it like the plague. =(

Id imagine this is a transient state. That if I was able to navigate the source of the anxiety and overcome it, the asocial tendencies would subside too.

If it's transient, it's not a personality disorder.

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Autism runs in families, because it appears to have a genetic component. So if you have autism, one or both parents probably shows signs of autism. There is some speculation, however, that schizoid PD could be a milder form of schizophrenia, which also runs in families. But, I don't favor the schizophrenia hypothesis myself.

As I said earlier, most schizophrenia is misdiagnosed trauma. So genetic research is hampered by a large polluted population. I think there is a genetic form of schizophrenia and it probably looks like disorganized schizophrenia. The schizoid character would be the individual whose cognitive reserve is an enough to still function while schizophrenic is the one who lacks a sufficient cognitive reserve.

I think that personally, my schizoid characteristics are a reaction to events in childhood. My parents are gregarious (definitely not autistic), but I think my mom has a different personality disorder (histrionic). My dad may also have a personality disorder. So, I suspect that a parent with a personality disorder can cause a PD in their child, but not necessarily the same one.

This is not a personality disorder, this is what happens when traumatized parents raise a child.

Autism has other symptoms apart from social isolation. If you have any of the other symptoms characteristic of autism, that lends support to the autism diagnosis (I won't list them here).

Autism is considered a neurological condition that prevents you from perceiving certain things (or at least it's very deeply rooted). So, if you have ever had normal interactions with other people, that would suggest that you don't have autism. I have had plenty of normal interactions with other people. I just have lots of emotional triggers and I think I was improperly socialized, so having relationships tends to end up causing me pain. I think my attention disorder plays a part, too, because I have a hard time paying attention to another person. I get distracted by my own random thoughts. After I haven't had contact with someone on a regular basis, I tend to get caught up in my own crap and forget to maintain contact with the other person. So my relationships tend to wither over time.

Part of schizoid PD involves not getting much pleasure out of events in your life. The stereotypical Asperger person has an obsessive interest in something other people would find boring, such as a bus schedule. Schizoid PD does not involve obsessive interests. In fact, I think it would be the contrary. If you have a hard time deriving pleasure from anything, then you are not likely to have passionate interests. Of course, if the Asperger person has comorbid depression, that could lead to constricted affect and lack of pleasure in activities. But I think it should be possible to tell the difference.

People with autism genuinely don't know how to interact with other people. So, if they are taught how to interact, they should be able to improve. People with schizoid PD don't need to be taught how to interact with people, they show a lack of interest in doing so. So I think you would expect an autistic person to complain about "not getting it" as pertains to social behavior, whereas a schizoid person would not.

Autistic people often find it extremely hard to make eye contact and display strange affect. A person with schizoid PD would not have difficulty making eye contact if he wanted to, and his affect would be constricted, but not strange.

I don't think there is a particular reason why you couldn't have both autism and schizoid PD. Autism is thought of as a brain disorder, so you have it from early childhood. If an autistic person became frustrated with social interaction in childhood, and subsequently developed a lack of any interest in trying as an adult, then you could reasonably say that he has both autism and schizoid PD. However, since social problems are considered part of autism, I think schizoid traits would be subsumed into the autism umbrella diagnosis and considered secondary complications.

What you say about yourself here is what I would call a schizoid state. The schizoid state is a natural psychological defense and does not mean you have a personality disorder (though you would probably qualify under the DSM- Diagnosing Shit for Money) but it pretty certain you've been traumatized in some way if it is making you uncomfortable or completely dominating your life.

I can contribute something on autism, I wound up on high doses of antihistamine after developing a urticaria rash which showed Darer's sign which is an indication of mastocytosis. Mastocytosis maybe related to autism. This is not my subject area however IFAK the theory is it's caused by brain inflammation which is the same reason I am on low dose doxepin (which is a super strong H1, H2 & H4 antihistamine that crosses the blood-brain barrier).

Edited by buddha443556
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What you say about yourself here is what I would call a schizoid state. The schizoid state is a natural psychological defense and does not mean you have a personality disorder (though you would probably qualify under the DSM- Diagnosing Shit for Money) but it pretty certain you've been traumatized in some way if it is making you uncomfortable or completely dominating your life.

Please be careful about diagnosing other people over the internet. You're throwing around a lot of terms, and I'm not completely certain where your information is coming from. Particularly in regard to what is or isn't a personality disorder, what is or isn't schizoid, and the aftereffects of trauma.

Edited by tryp
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by schizoid character, but I'm kind of assuming you mean schizoid personality disorder, except that it's really nothing like what you describe. The hallmark of schizoid pd is a lack of interest in social interaction. It seems to be heritable, and biologically based, not caused by trauma. There's no research I've ever seen showingg an association between schizoid pd and violent behavior.

The basis of my thinking on schizoid is that of Guntrip and Fairbairn and Object Relation Theory. I'm familiar with the DSM's definition of schizoid personality disorder and Millon's work-- both of which to me is complete rubbish.

The schizoid personality disorder (as defined in the DSM) would include both the schizoid character and the schizoid state because it can not distinguish between them.

The schizoid character is probably genetic. The schizoid state is the result of trauma. I speak of disordered individuals here-- not introverts. Introversion is a personality trait not a disorder.

The psychopathic schizoid is the forensic term for the violent schizoid-- these are unique entities which are distinct from psychopaths or sociopaths.

Ok, so you're asking us to take your judgement over that of mainstream psychiatry/psychology? Not going to happen.

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