Is Bisexuality Possible? - Digest

[Cerberus]

This thread is presented in digest from the original CrazyTalk GLBT Board.  Please feel free to continue the discussion by reply.  Do, however, realize that the topic can be controversial, and discourse is to be kept level, civil, and mutually respectful. 

Cerberus

Board Moderator

_______________________________________________

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 1:11pm

I have always been attracted to women..and men as well..  I have been w/ both also..my ques is

i know in the gay community being Bi is considered not gay..u either r gay or r not.

I am also not attracted to women who look like men..call it lipstick lesbian, or whatever..i am attracted to beautiful women..its not about who plays the gender role, its about loving and exploring each others bodies..i also feel women can give each other what men cant, which is a part of intamincy men dont use...

i also love men...so can u have both?..or is it i am just very sexual

Thanks

Cristina 

Posted by: scatty

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 1:57pm

I feel the same way.  I am mostly attracted to

women when manic, but have been catching

myself admiring them even when stable.  Hence

my lurking on this board.

I have only been with 1 woman.  I love men too.

Where does one draw the line between curiosity/

experimentation and something more serious.

I think that I want the best of both worlds- all the

comforts a man can give plus the deeper emotional

bond I think I could feel with a woman.

Ok, I am just rambling now.  I'll be watching this

thread, I wonder what others will have to say 

about this. 

Posted by: hellotrumble

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 3:40pm

Bisexuality is completely "possible." I personally think that if our culture, or any culture (whatever), truly had no prejudices against non-heterosexuality, everyone would be pretty bi. I also think the fluid sexuality scale is right (no one's completely straight or completely gay). Furthermore, many feminists see bisexuality as a sort of answer to the polarization between gay and straight that also feelds sexism.

 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 4:04pm

on Mar 15th, 2005, 1:11pm, cris78 wrote:i know in the gay community being Bi is considered not gay..u either r gay or r not.

Actually, apparently not.  Oddly enough, I posed this very question to a gay chat room last night and was surprised at the answer.  One member wrote, "Duh --  everyone pretty much accepts the spectrum since Kinsey." (see the Board Intro above if you are not familiar with the research of Dr. Alfred Kinsey.)

There is no either/or divide, no line to be drawn.  You land somewhere along a continuum from completely straight to completely gay.  As with any bell curve, the majority are going to fall somewhere in between, and only a small percentage will occupy a position of exclusivity.  I am not "completely" gay.  I met, fell in love with, and married a woman based on mutual attraction, including physical attraction.  But I discovered that I stood too far gay-ward to continue in a way that would ensure her happiness.

The only time you will have to choose a definition for yourself is when you decide to commit to a permanent, exclusive, monogamous relationship with another individual.

The term "experimentation" is valid if you are genuinely unsure, and my first experience was precisely that -- an experiment.  It was a question that it was absolutely necessary to answer because of the potential impact the resulting information could have on my marriage and my family.  Once you have achieved a comfort level as being attracted to both genders, then it becomes a question of lifestyle.

You will choose to incorporate your proclivities in your lifestyle according to your faith, morals, ethics, circumstances, and social setting.  As long as you share your sexuality responsibly, with integrity, and in a spirit of caring for others, it matters little whether the chromosomes involved are X or Y.  One might almost apply the Hippocratic Oath to sexuality as well as medicine:  Do no harm.

The particular reasons that an individual is attracted to men or women, or certain types of men or women, is both physiological and psychological, and is fertile ground for study.    But it need not occupy your thoughts too much; simply enjoy knowing yourself as a complex person, capable of demonstrating affection to people unhindered by the rigid assumptions of society.

Now, I am not qualified to speak about hypersexuality as dysfunction related to BP mania or other mental disorders. There may be, and probably is, a difference between choosing to be attracted to both sexes, and just not being picky as long as the person is breathing.  Try to listen to your heart, even if your endocrine system is shouting.

Don't fret yourself; it's all good.

Cerberus

*Looks at Cris' picture*  Leapin' Lizards... another hottie!  What is it about CrazyTalk that draws them out of the woodwork?

 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 4:52pm

Certainly it's possible to be bi, and certainly some people are. If you find yourself interested in women and men -- whether it's more to one than the other -- then that's your sexuality. And we call that being bi. It's more important that you be comfortable with who you are than anything else.

Personally, I don't buy the "we're all really bi" line -- if sexuality is a continuum then there must be space for  some of us to be way out at one end or the other. 

I hate to contradict Cerberus, but there are places where being bi is considered 'problematic' in the lesbian (I can't speak for gay men) community. I've been in situations where lesbian women had serious and sometimes acrimonious discussions over whether bi women should be included in some particular event or space. And even more animated discussions over whether the male partners of bi women should be included (in my experience the answer has always been 'no'). 

That said, find yourself. You can worry about finding community and partners later -- find yourself first.

Fiona 

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 5:41pm

Fiona thats what I mean..I have been around alot of gay men, but few really gay women...i know w/ really gay women..one is the male and one is the female usually and they assume the features..ex..the word dykes, butches..and i have no doubt in my mind that they are gay..I also believe u r born w/ it.

my grandmother had 4 sisters..3 of them had gay sons..i dont think its a fluke..

so while im am into beautiful, very feminine women..i guess i would just say im open..

but I do know that in the true gay/lesbian community it is contrversy on what is accepted as a gay women..not bi

i hope this makes sense..and i didnt offend anyone..Hugs to all

Cris 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 7:35pm

Quote:I hate to contradict Cerberus, 

LOL - Oh, contradict away, Fiona!  I'm nothing if not contradictable.  Indeed, I have been known to contradict myself if no one else was available.  In this case, I write from experience, but my experience is limited -- and I will admit with perfect candor that I have never been a lesbian.  And, I, too, have heard gay men say that people who claim they are bi are only in denial of their gayness.  That's why I was surprised at the results of my little poll.

Quote:Personally, I don't buy the "we're all really bi" line -- if sexuality is a continuum then there must be space for  some of us to be way out at one end or the other. 

No, you're quite right.  I never suggested that we're all bi.  That's why I used the analogy of the bell curve.  If you accept that the "top 10%" (as it were) of a population represented by such a curve is concentrated in the upper end of the curve, would that not roughly correspond to the roughly 10% of the population purported to be "gay"?  Now, you might say, Well, there are a lot more absolutely straight people than 10% on the other end of the curve, but I would ask in return: are more than 10% really, completely, straight? Not so much as an inkling of something else?  I suspect that there is ample "space", as you say, for pure gays and pure straights.  And, as I understand Kinsey, his research, and certainly his scale, seems to support this view.

Cerberus (who wonders if his voice is muffled by this hat he is talking through) 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 7:54pm

on Mar 15th, 2005, 5:41pm, cris78 wrote:Fiona thats what I mean..I have been around alot of gay men, but few really gay women...i know w/ really gay women..one is the male and one is the female usually and they assume the features..ex..the word dykes, butches. 

This is actually quite outdated; at one time it was a very common 'format' for relationships -- up through at least the 1960s. There are women here older than I am who might have more insight into this.

Some women still have relationships like this today, but I don't actually know any. Certainly my partner and I don't, you'd be hard-pressed to describe either of us as 'butch.' I do more skirts and such than she does, but she doesn't look masculine either. It's a question of how we feel comfortable being in the world, and neither of us would change any of these things if we were somehow single. And both of us are comfortable with dyke and queer, even if we don't "look" the part.

Lesbian relationships are about women and not about any kind of 'role' going on. In fact, I'd be very uncomfortable in one of those relationships since I don't want any kind of male imagery in my relationships/life.

Did this make sense to you?

Fiona 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 9:39pm

Cris... FWIW, I have similar feelings/experiences. I've never been in a relationship with another woman, but I have had sexual experiences with a few. I often find myself attracted to attractive women, but overall, prefer men. That said, were it not for the social stigma, I'd have no objection to giving a same-sex relationship a try.

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 10:54pm

i agree sunshine..i prefer men for relationships..but i think i just view women as something sexual, and have no desire to be in a commited relationship..i just think there beautiful, and the way u make love to a women is so different than a man..i am in a committed relationship w/ a man but he know where i stand. 

Cris 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 15th, 2005, 11:28pm

Quote:Lesbian relationships are about women and not about any kind of 'role' going on. In fact, I'd be very uncomfortable in one of those relationships since I don't want any kind of male imagery in my relationships/life. 

Very well stated, Fiona.  I couldn't figure out how to respond.

Quote:I've never been in a relationship with another woman, but I have had sexual experiences with a few. I often find myself attracted to attractive women, but overall, prefer men. That said, were it not for the social stigma, I'd have no objection to giving a same-sex relationship a try.

Thank you for your candor.  I do think that this point of view is where some of the resentment in the lesbian community comes from.  Because it's so much easier socially to be committed to a man, the assumption is that bi women use women for sex and then return to men for emotional commitment.  Or so the story goes.  I remember when I first came out, I was warned against dating bi women because they would only hurt me in the end.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh. 

Posted by: BeachBiP Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 2:26am

on Mar 15th, 2005, 11:28pm, Libby wrote:

I do think that this point of view is where some of the resentment in the lesbian community comes from.  Because it's so much easier socially to be committed to a man, the assumption is that bi women use women for sex and then return to men for emotional commitment.   

I've spoken with so many "bi" women who choose relationships with men over anything they might want or feel with women.  Every one of them told me it was mainly because of the social stigma, and the financial security that men have in our society, compared to most women.  And I'm not exactly sure why it bothers me so, but when "bi" women, such as Sarah MacLachlan or Annie Lennox, meet men they fall in love with, they marry them.  What happens to all the women they fell in love with?  Discarded because same-sex marriage isn't legal at the moment?  As I said, I'm not sure why that one bugs me, and I've been lectured on end about it from the "bi" women I've been with....    What the hell am I talking about here anyway?  No clue, as usual. See my Lost Cognitive Abilities thread...   

I can understand the desire to behave in society, to be secure and accepted.  Don't we all want that to some extent?  If I could flip some switch and make myself want to be in a relationship with a man, at this point in time, I might.  How lovely it would be to not to have to think about the mundane every day issues that become nightmares at times, solely because I love women.  How fabulous to have a fatter, male paycheck in the house.  But since I parallel park like a mo' fo', and don't need someone to squash bugs in the house, I don't "need" a man in my life unless it be for the societal acceptance and the bigger pay.  I love men, don't misunderstand.  I'm not saying that's all they're good for, this is just my sense of humor which does so poorly in print.  I can be with a man in a relationship, or be with a woman in one.  I just go with my heart, rather than needing to choose for other reasons.  Did I digress?  SO unlike me.... Again, see that Lost Cognitive string... rope... thread... whatever. 

As for the man/woman role playing in relationships, as Fiona offered, I'm surprised that would still be a conception in this day and age.  I personally have always been attracted to feminine women, as you are, Cris, and I am feminine.  It's just a matter of personal preference, but there aren't any rules.  My theory was always that if I wanted a man, or anything that remotely looked like a man, it's easy enough to find men who are wildly attracted to cute lesbians, so I'd just go get me one.  And whenever the mood strikes, that's what happens, although not much.

I'm not usually attracted to women who are masculine, but that's just my personal preference.  I also usually like tall, dark women who can argue Nietzsche and do pilates while cooking a vegan dinner stark naked in the back of an RV heading for some Wymyyn's festival in Oregon.  But, again, that's just personal preference, and I'd be damned lucky to find her...

I look forward to the day when what society thinks and does is not an issue for us in determining who we love and with whom we share our lives.

Just love. 

[Play the gay God Bless America theme here]

{Legal Disclaimer here to apologize if I have offended anyone or anything in the making of this post} 

Posted by: eris

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 11:26am

on Mar 15th, 2005, 11:28pm, Libby wrote:

..... Because it's so much easier socially to be committed to a man, the assumption is that bi women use women for sex and then return to men for emotional commitment.  Or so the story goes.  I remember when I first came out, I was warned against dating bi women because they would only hurt me in the end.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh. 

I've heard this before. But that is using the presumption that bi women are incapable of loving another woman and committing to her, which I think is a fallacy. Women who use other women for sex only are probably (sadly) in the majority, but they are only bisexual in the physical meaning of the term... I wish there were a way to denote the difference between chicks who like to play around with other chicks, and woman who prefer emotional commitment but just dont' mind whether its primarily male or female... (Hope this is making sense).

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 12:52pm

eris..i think u r right..i just want women to make love to or be friends but no relationship..

its weird it like when a man looks at a women for the first time and they look at there body and looks..thats how i see women...i think my prefrence for women only goes as far as friendship w/ benefits....and I have only been w/ girls who r bi..

is this wrong?? 

Posted by: groovyone Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 2:21pm

on Mar 16th, 2005, 12:52pm, cris78 wrote:eris..i think u r right..i just want women to make love to or be friends but no relationship..

its weird it like when a man looks at a women for the first time and they look at there body and looks..thats how i see women...i think my prefrence for women only goes as far as friendship w/ benefits....and I have only been w/ girls who r bi..

is this wrong?? 

I don't think there's any right or wrong issue at hand, Cris.  It's all about you and what you want to explore in your life.  If you enjoy having sex with women but aren't interested in relationships, then who are we to argue? We're all consenting adults here.  Or rather, you and your partners are, right? That's all that really matters.

And as for the whole exclusivity thing? I tend to get pissed off when my sisters deny my bi gals "entry" to the club.  That's just not right.

Karen

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 5:08pm

on Mar 15th, 2005, 11:28pm, Libby wrote:Thank you for your candor.  I do think that this point of view is where some of the resentment in the lesbian community comes from. 

Shit... I can't tell if I offended you or not, Libby. If I did... forgive me? I thought twice about saying that as bluntly as I did (especially on this board), but then thought what the hell, if I'm being perfectly honest with myself (and everyone here), that is the only thing that would stop me from considering a long-term relationship with a woman. 

I DO realize this kind of thinking contributes to the problem, but hell... I'm as human (in other words, selfish) as the next person. I enjoy relationships with men as much (or more so) than with women so yeah, I'm going to take the easy way out.

FWIW, I'm fairly open with people about my feelings on this. I don't advertise it, but I don't go out of my way to hide it, either (not that there's that much to hide) and I'm openly supportive of gay/lesbian issues/rights, though I'll admit that I'm probably clueless about most of them (as I am about most things political).

Again... my apologies if my bluntness was offensive in any way. 

One more thing....  I truly believe that prejudice is nothing but ignorance, so please, feel free to educate me (bluntly, if need be)!

sunshine 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 10:03pm

Quote:its weird it like when a man looks at a women for the first time and they look at there body and looks..thats how i see women...i think my prefrence for women only goes as far as friendship w/ benefits....and I have only been w/ girls who r bi.. 

 

is this wrong?? 

As long as you and your female sex friends are both in agreement, who am I to judge.  The problem comes in when one person is into a relationship and the other one isn't, but doesn't say so, in order to get laid.  As long as you are up front about wanting nothing but friendship and sex, and the other party agrees with that, then no problem and nobody gets hurt.

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 10:14pm

Quote:Shit... I can't tell if I offended you or not, Libby. If I did... forgive me? I thought twice about saying that as bluntly as I did (especially on this board), but then thought what the hell, if I'm being perfectly honest with myself (and everyone here), that is the only thing that would stop me from considering a long-term relationship with a woman.   

hmmm... I should probably think more about this before replying, but what the hey.  Let's see.  The whole notion of inequality in this society is offensive to me, but you didn't offend me.  I'm glad you were honest.  I can't say that I *like* it that bi women choose relationships with men; it's kind of a slap in the face to other women, you know what I mean?  So, that is offensive.  But if I could be truly, completely happy with a man, who's to say if I wouldn't choose it myself because life would be completely EASY by comparison?

 

On the other hand, if both women choose to be just friends and have sex and have no expectations of a relationship, that IS totally up to them.  It's the potential for misleading someone that could be a problem.  Just don't break any hearts.

I don't think I'm being very articulate here, but that's the best I can do at the moment.

ETA:  I just thought of something else. If you can make love to a woman and not get emotional, I think that may indicate that you're a lot more straight than bi.  You know, like you're a little bit bi, but mostly straight. 

Posted by: BeachBiP Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 10:39pm

on Mar 15th, 2005, 1:11pm, cris78 wrote:I have always been attracted to women..and men as well..  I have been w/ both also..my ques is

i know in the gay community being Bi is considered not gay..u either r gay or r not.

I am also not attracted to women who look like men..call it lipstick lesbian, or whatever..i am attracted to beautiful women..its not about who plays the gender role, its about loving and exploring each others bodies..i also feel women can give each other what men cant, which is a part of intamincy men dont use...

i also love men...so can u have both?..or is it i am just very sexual

Thanks

Cristina 

Back to the original musing/query.  If you're really ok with this, why are you asking?  Are you not comfortable with yourself?  Does it bother you?

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 10:56pm

Quote:If you can make love to a woman and not get emotional, I think that may indicate that you're a lot more straight than bi.  You know, like you're a little bit bi, but mostly straight. 

Yep. That about describes it. There really isn't a label for it. "Bi-curious" doesn't work because the "curious" part no longer applies. But who needs labels, anyway.

Quote:It's the potential for misleading someone that could be a problem.  Just don't break any hearts. 

Amen! (Regardless of sexual orientation.) I had my heart broken not too long ago by a man who mislead me about his intentions.

In any case... some of my favorite people here are lesbians (yourself included). I hope that's an indication that I'm very accepting of all kinds of diversity (the world would be a very boring place without it).

ETA:

Quote:The whole notion of inequality in this society is offensive to me. 

Me too. 

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 16th, 2005, 11:24pm

Im very comfortable w/ myself..

and I can get very emotional when im makin love to a women moreso a man..i guess i just like to be with them..its a different feeling..i love the gentleness..i love that to me being w/ a women is reaching a higher level of intimacy..if that makes sense...but i do like to be taken care of like w/ a man...i dunno..its like those adult film stars..they can make love to women and fully enjoy it but go home to a man...I def know im not gay, and i def know im not bi-curious..i guess im just really bi...so it does exist..

i guess i was confused if i was the only one who felt like this..

Hugs all

Cris 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 12:31am

on Mar 16th, 2005, 10:14pm, Libby wrote:On the other hand, if both women choose to be just friends and have sex and have no expectations of a relationship, that IS totally up to them.  It's the potential for misleading someone that could be a problem.  Just don't break any hearts.

Exactly. This is what leads to the 'warning' that bi women will only break your heart in the end. As long as everyone is aware and fine with the arrangement, and freely consenting adults they can do what makes them happy. The problem is when one person's expectations are very different than the other's.

And I think this can be a particular problem in the women's community because lesbians often do jump into relationships with both feet (that U-haul you know), and so later feel mislead and hurt.

Politically (probably incorrect coming) while I think bi women and I share many things -- no one partnered with someone of the opposite sex is ever really going to understand my life. 

Fiona 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 12:42am

on Mar 15th, 2005, 7:35pm, Cerberus wrote:and I will admit with perfect candor that I have never been a lesbian. 

No? Maybe you should try it some time -- I quite enjoy it.

Quote:No, you're quite right.  I never suggested that we're all bi.  That's why I used the analogy of the bell curve. 

Oh, I know *you* didn't raise this argument exactly, although hellotrumble did and it seems inevitable in this kind of discussion.

I'm willing to believe that without any cultural stuff, many people would be somewhere on the scale between completely straight and completely gay. I get annoyed by this argument because I fall pretty close to the completely gay end of the scale, with or without our cultural stuff. 

And the cultural stuff argument is so hard to make and support, it's impossible to judge or imagine or whatever what people would be like without culture. Culture is how we interact with the world and with each other. (Is my anthropology showing?)

Fiona 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 7:59am

Fiona -

Your point about culture is perfectly well taken (I have a little anthropology background myself). In presenting the bell-curve analogy, I was approaching the question as a matter of people's core orientation, that is, as if they were a) fully aware of their own orientation and B) truthful about it.  In sort of a "truth be told" scenario, I think the curve is appropriate.

But in reality, we can't divorce culture from the question.  Certifiably gay men still marry women to achieve a certain cultural standing, and a lesbian may marry a man for the same reason.  If a person is bi, those lines can become grayed to the point of indistinguishability, and without a doubt, cultural influences skew the mean along the curve toward heterosexuality.

The fact that this influence accentuates/exacerbates the social minority status of homosexuals is an understandable source of the frustration that "purer" gays feel toward bis: It's easy to feel anger or bitterness toward those who partake of the pleasures of being a member of the oppressed minority, without suffering any of the hardships.

As always, my own opinion, unsullied by actual credentials.

Cerberus

Posted by: BeachBiP

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 10:12am

on Mar 16th, 2005, 11:24pm, cris78 wrote:

...i love that to me being w/ a women is reaching a higher level of intimacy..if that makes sense...but i do like to be taken care of like w/ a man... 

What does that mean, to be "taken care of like w/ a man"? 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 12:30pm

on Mar 17th, 2005, 7:59am, Cerberus wrote:In sort of a "truth be told" scenario, I think the curve is appropriate. 

I don't disagree, I just find that sometimes (not you) it gets lost in this model that some people are quite far towards the ends.

Quote:a lesbian may marry a man for the same reason. 

Because that's what you do when you finish college in some places? How you get away from family (mother!)? Especially when it involves moving to a very far away country? And it hasn't occured to you that lesbianism is a real option 'cause you come from a conservative background? 'Cause you think sex is supposed to be unpleasant ('stare at the ceiling and think of England')?

How I'm doing here? 

Quote:It's easy to feel anger or bitterness toward those who partake of the pleasures of being a member of the oppressed minority, without suffering any of the hardships.

Or perhaps, without *having* to suffer any of the hardships. I've seen this come out in the women's community in some really nasty and unpleasant ways. 

Quote:As always, my own opinion, unsullied by actual credentials.   

 

You can borrow some of mine 

Fiona

(and yes I was miserable the whole time, even without factoring in the abuse, it was also short)

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 8:26pm

on Mar 17th, 2005, 7:59am, Cerberus wrote:The fact that this influence accentuates/exacerbates the social minority status of homosexuals is an understandable source of the frustration that "purer" gays feel toward bis: It's easy to feel anger or bitterness toward those who partake of the pleasures of being a member of the oppressed minority, without suffering any of the hardships. 

I completely agree that it's understandable (we're all human, after all), but is it justifiable to resent someone because they have more opportunities, choices, etc. (so long as they don't mislead or hurt anyone, of course)? Isn't that a bit like resenting someone for being born into a rich family when you were born into a poor one? It's one thing to be envious, but another to be resentful or offended, don't you think?

Isn't the gay/lesbian community furthering their minority status by excluding members that share only partial commonality? It seems much like (for example), members of the Asian community shunning a member because they married someone of a different race - or excluding the offspring of such a union because they are only half Asian.

And Fiona, I couldn't agree with you more that I will never completely understand your life. But I understand it enough to admire and respect your (and Cerberus') courage and recognize that the ideas, views, and opinions stated above are easy for someone in my shoes to have. 

Sincerely hoping I haven't offended,

sunshine

 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 9:17pm

Sunshine -

Enough with the apologies, already!  You're not offending anyone, and it's people like you who will state an honest point of view that makes possible any meaningful discourse.

I make no claim to courage.  I have not yet been tested.  Unlike Fiona, and the millions of others who have endured the social stigma of homosexuality, my repression has up to this point been entirely self-imposed.  Yes, the social morays I was exposed to in my Bible-belt upbringing did play a role in conditioning me to deny my own sexual orientation for more than 25 years, and yes, I was called a fag at school before I even knew what a fag was, and long before there was anything acceptable about it whatsoever.  But that's a lot different than knowing you're gay and living the life in spite of its hardships.

I don't want to be gay.  If I could choose, today, right now,  I would take hetero in a heartbeat.  I had a wife, two children, house, cars, dogs, the lot.  I wanted the family structure my parents had, that I grew up in, for my children.  But I can't have it, and it's an effing hard pill to swallow.

I hadn't planned on "discovering myself" at 38.  I hadn't planned on parenting this way.  I hadn't planned on the world turning upside down.  But it did, and I am now free-falling in a maelstrom the likes of which I could never have imagined.  I don't really feel brave in facing it, because I have no choice.  It's been relatively sudden, as life events go, and it's shaking me the way a terrier shakes a rat.  When things have settled down, and when I truly grasp the ramifications of what I have become, and begin making solid choices on the basis of that, then I will consider whether or not I've lived with any courage.

Signing off.

Cerberus (who is afraid people here will reject him when they find out he's only partly crazy)

P.S. Fiona - I've been working on that little piece we talked about, but am not satisfied with it yet.  More anon. 

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 9:31pm

on Mar 17th, 2005, 10:12am, BeachBiP wrote: What does that mean, to be "taken care of like w/ a man"?

I think it means that while I am in a comitted relationship w/ a man, i feel secure, protected, and im just plainly attracted to men.

but on the other hand I cant help my feeling towards women..

I know that gay is not a choice..grandmother had 4 sisters 3 had gay sons..i watched my uncle die from Aids..I cant imagine what its like to live in the actual gay world..

But just be yourself, whatever that may be..

Hugs

Cristina

***Edited to fix quote tag error 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 17th, 2005, 9:46pm

on Mar 17th, 2005, 9:17pm, Cerberus wrote:Enough with the apologies, already!  You're not offending anyone, and it's people like you who will state an honest point of view that makes possible any meaningful discourse. 

Sorry (lol). I have a tendency to be very insecure. And to be honest, I've never really discussed these things before, so I'm not quite sure what's appropriate and what's not. I haven't read any of the other threads in this topic - I happened across this one when viewing the "32 most recent posts" the other night and it peaked my curiousity (pun intended). I'm finding this discussion very thought provoking.

Quote:(who is afraid people here will reject him when they find out he's only partly crazy) 

me too

sunshine

(who thinks you're brave even if you don't)

 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 18th, 2005, 11:35am

Quote:I completely agree that it's understandable (we're all human, after all), but is it justifiable to resent someone because they have more opportunities, choices, etc. (so long as they don't mislead or hurt anyone, of course)? Isn't that a bit like resenting someone for being born into a rich family when you were born into a poor one? It's one thing to be envious, but another to be resentful or offended, don't you think? 

It's not the bisexual orientation that is resented, it's the dabbling in the lesbian experience but not taking it seriously.  Ideally, if bi women who are light-hearted about it all experiment with one another, then no harm done.  It's when a lesbian gets involved with a bi woman, falls for her hard, while the bi woman is just playing it for fun, that the resentment comes in.  I think that most bi women who are in it for fun do NOT come out and say that to a lesbian they're hot for.  I think most  play the game and they do mislead.  Otherwise, this adage to  stay away from bi women wouldn't have been a staple in the lesbian community for the 22 years I've been out of the closet.

This is not to say that YOU would do this, but I suspect that it is the usual path.  It's much safer if bi women stick with bi women for sexual relationships, and lesbians stick with lesbians for sexual relationships because then everybody has a deeper level of understanding.  That's my totally personal opinion from afar.  I've never dated a bi woman personally, but I have heard the angst in lesbian social groups. 

Posted by: groovyone

Posted on: Mar 18th, 2005, 12:19pm

Time for some personal experience? I've been involved with some bi women or at least some (otherwise straight) women who have been interested in experimenting sexually (i.e. I don't know if they were self-identified as bi...they probably weren't self-aware enough to even contemplate being bi!)

Let me tell you, it did not end well.  I allowed myself to develop feelings for these women.  Perhaps that shouldn't have happened but once emotions get involved there's not much you can do.  Things were not reciprocated.  It got ugly.  I think I was basically used.  A lab rat, pretty much.

So as a lesbian who was very much committed to *someday* having a relationship with another woman--to cross a certain line with someone who wasn't necessarily psychologically or emotionally prepared to do that? It was dangerous.

For others, I don't know.  I think it tends to be the same sort of scenario.  Now unless that lesbian can separate the emotional from the physical and make it purely about sex? Fine.  At those times, I was not able to do that.  I had neither the maturity, nor the mental stability.

Hey, I have no hang ups about whomever, whatever...  I'm probably one of the most open minded people on the planet.  Just so long as no one is getting hurt.

Karen

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 18th, 2005, 12:32pm

Quote:Time for some personal experience? I've been involved with some bi women or at least some (otherwise straight) women who have been interested in experimenting sexually (i.e. I don't know if they were self-identified as bi...they probably weren't self-aware enough to even contemplate being bi!) 

 

Let me tell you, it did not end well.  I allowed myself to develop feelings for these women.  Perhaps that shouldn't have happened but once emotions get involved there's not much you can do.  Things were not reciprocated.  It got ugly.  I think I was basically used.  A lab rat, pretty much. 

Damn, Karen, that is EXACTLY what happened to me!  I wasn't thinking of them with the word "bi," because they were "straight" at the time.  But that is EXACTLY what happened.

One chick was a gorgeous straight friend, whom I secretly was attracted to, but I was never going to do anything about it.  Then SHE put the moves on me.  Etc. etc etc.  She liked it a lot more than she thought she would and we spent hours in bed one afternoon at her lakehouse, making love over and over, with the sun streaming across the bed.  It's still a beautiful image to me.  I was totally smitten.

But, she freaked and refused to talk to me the next day or EVER again!  I was crushed to say the least.

Revenge:  A mutual friend ran into her 15 years later, asked her if she remembered me, and she answered, "Remember her?  I still fantasize about her!  In fact I did this morning."  HAH! 

Posted by: noemie Posted on: Mar 18th, 2005, 10:29pm

Current research on sexual orientation indicates that up to 18% of women indicate some degree of sexual desire for other women, ranging from exclusively interested in women to mostly interested in men to still interested in women.  The percentage of women interested exclusively in other women is smaller; most estimates are 1-2% or 2-3% on the high side.  For guys, it's 9% indicating some level of interest and 2-3% exclusively interested in guys.  For some people, having a bi identity is a transitional phase to coming out as gay; for most people, it is not.  For some people, identifying as gay precedes coming out as bi.  And some people go back and forth.  This stuff is messy.  Many people really are straight; the theory that everyone is bisexual is not held up by the data.  Citations available upon request.

One important point that often gets overlooked: One reason bisexual women often wind up in relationships with men is that many, many more men are interested in dating women than women are interested in dating women.  Especially when lesbian women encourage each other to not date bisexual women because they are bi!

I've had two partners in my life, both of them men.  This isn't because I'm choosing men over women; it's because I'm choosing partners from the pool of people interested in me, and they've all been men.  The notion that I chose either of my partners for societal acceptance and a bigger paycheck is upsetting and offensive; I chose to date them because they were kind, intelligent, and interesting people.  I don't "need a man" in my life,  but I do very much like having a partner and I feel lucky to have the one that I have.

Quote:It's easy to feel anger or bitterness toward those who partake of the pleasures of being a member of the oppressed minority, without suffering any of the hardships. 

I'm not straight.  I feel uncomfortable in gatherings and groups where being straight is assumed and other ways of being never even come up in conversation.  But there's not a space for me in the glbt community.  There was in college because I hadn't dated my boyfriend for all that long, and being in my first long-term relationship and having it be a straight relationship brought up a lot of issues surrounding bisexuality for me.  Now I've been in two successive straight relationships - one for nearly five years, the current one for over a year - and the possibility of my dating women in the near future is pretty low.

And you know, if I go to a campus glbt group there will be people who will be wondering what the hell I'm doing there since I'm "basically straight", even if they're respectful enough to not say it to my face.  Or have stuff happen that happened in undergrad: have people tell me that I'm really a lesbian (because at the time I was primarily attracted to women), or feel like I can't talk about my boyfriend because it isn't appropriate, or hear anger expressed at straight people as a class, or hear straight people referred to 'breeders' just as a matter of course. My boyfriend, many of my friends, people I care about and love... 

There's also the choice of inadvertently passing for straight by being in a straight relationship, and being open to accusations of passing to gain benefits and at the expense of the glbt community, or wearing rainbow jewelry and being more in-your-face about sexuality and risking being accused of being into bisexuality because it's chic or the "in thing" and trying to gain minority status you haven't "suffered enough to deserve."  There's also sometimes a perception that if you withdraw from the glbt community (because the stress of all of this controversy is too painful and being invisible sucks but hurts less), you're a traitor to the community (and you're taken as further proof that you can't trust bisexuals because they'll betray you). 

That's what I did - better to have sexuality stuff ignored than to get to talk about it but have to deal with repeated stress from sexuality-related shit (that only ever came up in the glbt community).  But still, it was a home for me in undergrad when the rest of my university sucked, and I lost that home and can't go back, not just for that but because of being an evolutionary psychologist, and I'm still so, so sad about it.  Because it was like losing the only part of me that I could find to fit in with after years of alienation and depression.

These aren't the same issues that many gay, lesbian, and bisexual people have to deal with; I've had an unusually good experience overall with non-glbt people.  But it still hurts.  A lot.  (Let me also mention that bisexual women and men in same-sex relationships are still going to get treated as gay by most people and subject to the same problems.)

Last - If we start talking about bi women being interested in dating lesbian women exclusively for sex, let's look at data before concluding it's true of the majority of bi women.  Sexuality researchers generally look at three things: sexual desire, emotional desire, and sexual behavior.  I would go and look up data on this now but I've spent waaaay too much time on crazymeds tonight already so I'll try to remember to do that later.

Posted by: noemie

Posted on: Mar 18th, 2005, 10:31pm

on Mar 18th, 2005, 12:32pm, Libby wrote:

But, she freaked and refused to talk to me the next day or EVER again!  I was crushed to say the least.

Revenge:  A mutual friend ran into her 15 years later, asked her if she remembered me, and she answered, "Remember her?  I still fantasize about her!  In fact I did this morning."  HAH!

It sounds like your friend wasn't able to deal with coming out to herself or to others at the time, and perhaps not still.  That's really sad.  [insert rant on how internalized homophobia/biphobia sucks] 

Posted by: libertyjones

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 8:01am

having not read the entire thread jumps in-

Quote:I hate to contradict Cerberus, but there are places where being bi is considered 'problematic' in the lesbian (I can't speak for gay men) community. I've been in situations where lesbian women had serious and sometimes acrimonious discussions over whether bi women should be included in some particular event or space. And even more animated discussions over whether the male partners of bi women should be included (in my experience the answer has always been 'no') 

YES! i had this problem myself. big time and man was it a shock. it hurt i thought fuck me i don't even seem to fitt in with the lesbains and i am one.  i was worried i'd find the same problem here intially. and cris78, i wear lipstick/makeup dress unisexually most days, sit legs apart, cuss like a sailor, am a carpenter, pc geek, i spit when i feel like spitting,  but i'm not a sporty dyke type nor do i hate men nor do i consider myself bisexual. weird aint i? i do not fit. my PREFERENCE is"sexually" for women and emotionally.  i wish we could just fucking knock this shit off about making people feel bad for being who they are.especially sexually! none of us are ONE THING entirely. ::shrug:: 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 8:38am

Quote:nor do i hate men 

Neither do I.  I even have male friends.  That's a big stereotype about lesbians that is just not true.  Lesbians in general are neutral about men in general.

Again, it's not the sexual orientation that's an issue, it's the way that people are treated as a result, and why that occurs.  A bi woman who *uses* a lesbian for sex is the same as a straight guy who uses a straight woman for sex.  There's "falling in love" on her side, and "I'll say anything to get laid" on his side. If the "just lookin' to get laid" person is honest at the beginning, then no one gets hurt, but he/she probably doesn't get laid very often either.

Posted by: Zoezoe

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:39am

Libby, why is it any "worse" for a bi woman to just have casual sex with a woman and mislead her, than it is for a man to do so.  The problem is the misleading aspect of it, not the bi-sexual nature of the woman involved.

I would also say that bi-sexual women have as much right to explore our sexuality as anyone else, and that may mean sometimes we are sexual and then change our minds about wanting to be with that person, or sometimes that gender.  Sexual desire is fluid, not fixed for many people.  Plus, many people find themselves in relationships where one person has different expectations and gets hurt.  It isn't just germaine to bisexuals with lesbian women. It is sad anytime mismatched expectations or longings occur, but not necessarily because the other person did anything wrong or intentionally misleading.

"It's not the bisexual orientation that is resented, it's the dabbling in the lesbian experience but not taking it seriously."

I thought this statement was really insulting to bisexual women.  What is "dabbling"?  What does it mean to take the lesbian experience seriously? Does it really mean a bisexual woman can only get involved with bisexual women as has been said here?  That is so elitest for a lesbian to say such a thing.  When a bisexual woman is involved or having sex with another woman, that IS a LESBIAN experience.  That she moves back and forth between both worlds, or feels capable of doing so, is what makes her bisexual.  It doesn't necessarily change the intentions, quality, nature of her relating to women.

If two women find themselves attracted to one another and choose to act on it, it SHOULD be irrelevent that one defines herself as bisexual, at least in the early phases until they are ready to define their "relationship" more clearly and set boundaries.  Of course, if a bisexual woman chooses to have relationships with both men and women simultaneously, then it seems reasonable that a lesbian who is into monogomy might not be interested, or she just might not want to deal with the emotions stirred up by dealing with a woman who relates to men.  I'd say that is HER issue, not the problem of the bisexual woman.  It is easy to project one's fears, but it is not particularly responsible.  When the lesbian community is all about affirming ones freedom to make sexual and relational choices, and to define oneself, it strikes me as hypocritical to be defining what is bisexual and how bisexual women should be living their lives.

Now, in case no one remembers, I was lesbian-identified for 10 years, as radical and political a lesbian-feminist as you could find. I was sexually and emotionally involved with women.  I loved women. I also saw how bisexual women were treated, the alienation, and I always felt it was inconsistent with a lesbian-feminist movement.  But as a result of what I saw happen, when I started to feel attracted to men I totally withdrew from the lesbian community - not because I wasn't interested in women, but because I didn't want the judgment and ostrasization that would come with my exploration.  It has also kept me from going back into the lesbian community, which is very small and incestuous in St. Louis, and I feel I wouldn't be "taken back" fully once I'd become a "traitor".  It is such bullshit that we fragment the community and project such judgements on one another.

Today as a presumed bi-sexual woman, I would get involved with a woman because that woman moved and inspired me.  The fact that I could relate to a man as well (but not as well if you know what I mean) would not be a factor in my relationship with a woman.  I would feel, and do even now, like I was a "lesbian", in that I can fully love and commit myself to living in a mutually supportive relationship with a woman, that I would encourage her personal growth, her healing, and her happiness, and that I would be monogomous and truthful.  Why, because I've been with men too, I should be denied "access" to women who define themselves all of the time as "lesbians" is beyond my comprehension.

Pushed some buttons here, I think. 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:20am

zoezoe, the posts I responded to were the ones from bisexual women saying that they intentionally and with forethought have men for relationships and women for sex.

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 1:33pm

Wow... I had absolutely no idea what a controversial issue this was. Shows you how ignorant I am about such things. As I mentioned in a previous post, this is the first time I've really discussed it or given it such deep thought. I'm kinda  chuckling at my tag line ("Is it safe to come out, yet?") because when I wrote it, I was wasn't thinking about my sexuality in the least - rather, my MI. 

At any rate... I never have been (and never would be) interested in women solely for sex and men solely for relationships, and, more importantly, I would never mislead anyone (man or woman) about my intentions. For right or wrong, all of my sexual experiences involved women who were involved in relationships with men. Everyone involved was just openly just "dabbling," no one was mislead, fun was had by all. In contrast, I've had similar experiences with men - where it was explicitly known up front that it was just for fun and someone ended up getting hurt because feelings developed (and in one case, it wasn't me - so don't assume that this is solely a female vulnerability).

That said... it makes perfect sense that a lesbian woman would shy away from relationships with bi-women - and maybe should. But do bi-sexual (or even bi-curious) women need to be ostracized from the lesbian community as they apparently are? While I'm standing by my earlier statement that this kind of attitude seems to further the minority status of the gay/lesbian community, I recognize that I don't have the first clue about the hardships endured by it. I also know (from personal experience), that the defense mechanisms we all (regardless of gender or sexual orientation) create to protect our hearts aren't always "fair."

Peace, love, and all that,

sunshine

(who, while more enlightened, is now even more confused about her sexuality!)

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 1:39pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 8:01am, libertyjones wrote:my PREFERENCE is"sexually" for women and emotionally.  i wish we could just fucking knock this shit off about making people feel bad for being who they are.especially sexually! none of us are ONE THING entirely. ::shrug:: 

I was wondering when you were going to join this discussion!

But now I'm really confused... you're married to a MAN, aren't you? And I remember reading in a previous post that it's sexually monogamous. How did that happen? You need to hurry up and get to that chapter in your story, girl! I can't stand the suspense!! 

Posted by: BeachBiP

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 3:54pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 1:33pm, sunshine wrote:... it makes perfect sense that a lesbian woman would shy away from relationships with bi-women - and maybe should. But do bi-sexual (or even bi-curious) women need to be ostracized from the lesbian community as they apparently are? 

Why do bi or bi-curious women want to be IN the lesbian community?  To find experimental prey? 

I let a woman into my life a few years ago - she came seeking me out in MY community.  Four years of a hellish nightmare later, the details of which are too embarrassing to even bother with, she told me that, although totally in love with me, and swear to god, totally gay, she wanted the social acceptance of having a man to take to dinner parties and the ability to present herself to the world at large as a "legitimately, recognized couple."  She didn't need anything, she was independently wealthy and could do whatever she wanted to do with her life.  But she was insecure about how the world might see her.

I lost her, I lost her two small children whom I had grown to love, I lost my home, I left my job, we lived in a very small town and I just had to leave it or watch her play Ozzie and Harriet with her new prey at dinner parties...  I lost my mind.  I've been in a state of black ever since I moved away last year to start all over in another state.  What could I do?  I couldn't grow a penis.  I had everything else she wanted and needed except the one thing I couldn't give her because I couldn't become that.  She was a mess as a human being, and I don't know why I went through everything I did with her and for her because I'm not complete moron, yet.  But I should have known so much better.

I will never forgive her for her weakness and for her selfishness.  Had she been honest with me from the beginning, I would not have wasted four years of my life that I can't get back now.  She moved on and she always gets what she wants.  I'm insane, and can't function, and don't trust ANYONE any longer and can't even BEGIN to become interested in love anymore.  It's been over a year, and although I've begun again, my heart is still very much numb.

Now that you've read what being "bi-curious" can do to another human's heart and life, what do you think of it?  Bi-curious can mean a few hours, a passionate night, a couple of months - or for the very determined, several long and entangled years.

The difference between this "divorce" versus just a regular run of the  mill relationship breakup, which was a good point here a few posts back (I'm sorry I can't recall by whom), is that the only reason my relationship

[Cerberus]

Part 2 of the Digest.

________________________________

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 5:04pm

BeachBiP,

First of all, my heart goes out to you for having to go through such a painful experience. I have had my heart broken and I don't wish it on anyone.

I can only speak for myself, but I think the point being made here (or trying to be made) is this experience is not unique to relationships between bi-sexual and lesbian women. Maybe some of the finite details are unique - but then again, isn't every relationship (and it's breakup) unique? 

on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:54pm, BeachBiP wrote:Bi-curious can mean a few hours, a passionate night, a couple of months - or for the very determined, several long and entangled years. 

I beg to disagree. Relationships of any kind can mean "...a few hours, a passionate night, a couple of months - or for the very determined, several long and entangled years." This describes every single one of my "straight" relationships. 

Every single relationship is a risk, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. Some people can handle long-term relationships, others can't. Some people truly want a long-term relationship, but get scared and flee when the moment of truth arrives. They don't mean to hurt you, but that's what happens. The man who broke my heart did so in a manner that hurt me at least as much as you were hurt and for reasons that were at least as asinine as your partner's. Some people are honest, some are not. Getting your heart broken is NOT a unique lesbian experience! 

on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:54pm, BeachBiP wrote:Why do bi or bi-curious woman want to be IN the lesbian community? 

I'm going to answer this one separate from the one that follows. Speaking only for myself, I've never wanted to be IN the lesbian community. As I've previously stated in this thread, this is the first time I've ever really discussed this issue and until now didn't even realize what a controversial topic it is. What has surprised me the most is how much blatant hostility there is amongst the lesbian community against bi-sexual women. And believe me, having discovered it, I don't want in. 

Quote:To find experimental prey?

THIS is what I find extremely offensive (not to mention flabbergasting) - the assumption that *all* bi or bi-curious women are like this. Good god, how is this any different that the assumption that *all* black people are criminals? Do you honestly not see that they are the same thing? 

I don't doubt for a second that there are unscrupulous, dishonest, and selfish bi women who deliberately mislead lesbian women and cause them a great deal of pain. However, I am no less certain that there are unscrupulous, dishonest, and selfish lesbian women that mislead other lesbian women and cause them a great deal of pain, too. You are stereotyping an entire group of people by the actions of a few. Where I grew up, this was called discrimination.

Humor me with an analogy, please... If this woman you dated was Jewish and you were Catholic (and this was known to both of you at the beginning of the relationship) and she broke up with you because (and only because) she discovered she couldn't handle the religious differences, would you have this much animosity for all Jewish women? I can certainly understand how one might be extremely hesitant to ever again get involved in a mixed-religion relationship, but to so harshly judge all members of that religion and any and all who give it a try seems... well.... harsh. 

Quote:Now that you've read what being "bi-curious" can do to another human's heart and life, what do you think of it? 

I don't think THIS is what being bi-curious means. THIS is what being dishonest with someone you are in (or start) a relationship with means - regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, religion, race, or creed (along with any other "categories" our society uses to classify groups of people).

Feeling more naive (and disenchanted) than ever,

sunshine 

Posted by: libertyjones

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 5:39pm

Quote:But now I'm really confused... you're married to a MAN, aren't you? And I remember reading in a previous post that it's sexually monogamous. How did that happen? You need to hurry up and get to that chapter in your story, girl! I can't stand the suspense!! 

the answer to that is as complicated as i am. gah but on the most basic level i feel in love with him; he was a slave of mine with many feminine attributes. he still has them. emotionally he is very tender.

beachbip i had a young lady break my heart too. since i've honestly been leery of bi's in general but still (since) try not to judge people without knowing them first. not all bi's are heartbreakers, eh?

the reason i was leery was because the girl i loved brought men home to our bed- when she thought i was away and she ended up sleeping with my father. i loved her very much. after that i felt insecure that if i were to date a bisexual woman and fall in love i would not be enough, enough together, enough sexually, well ENOUGH of that. you know what i'm saying. it was very painful. some people you never get over never stop loving and the worst thing ever is when they don't love you back the same.  just clarifying. i don't think have a sexual preference or even 3 of them makes a person unfaithful or incapable of sincerity. 

plenty of straight men, gay men and lesbians let's not forget crossdressers and transgenders can be assholes oh straight women too! i know some from all catagories, but i wish we wouldn't and didn't have to catagorize people on who they sleep with but on their intergrity and other strengths of the soul. it would be nice. 

hey BIG DAWG is my nickname in my family amongst and a few others i can't mention. heh. 

Posted by: noemie

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 5:49pm

the only place I've ever run into blatant intolerance on this board is with regards to female bisexuality.  it makes me hurt that we are a friendly home for people who are stigmatized and rejected by mainstream society for being mentally ill, personality disordered, lesbian, gay...so long as you're not a bisexual female.

There are people who do shitty things with regards to relationships, using one partner for sex when the other partner thinks it's about an emotional relationship, or ditching a partner for a more societally acceptable one.  These are shitty and inappropriate and immoral things to do to someone. No one should ever have to be on the receiving end of that.  Some people who do these things are bisexual women.  This DOES NOT translate to "all bisexual women are like that."  We are not.

A hell of a lot more people who do these things are straight men, btw - straight and bisexual women who date men are at a greater risk of having these things happen to them than are lesbians.  Which does not, of course, make it any less bad if it happens to a lesbian.  It's just not exclusively a lesbian problem.

I also haven't ever joined a lesbian community, because I'm not into receiving hostility and intolerance.  I do join glbt communities, like this one.

Posted by: libertyjones

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 5:57pm

Quote:the only place I've ever run into blatant intolerance on this board is with regards to female bisexuality. 

count yourself lucky. 

please let's be good to each other.

 

Posted by: Zoezoe

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 6:43pm

Noemie and Sunshine, I really appreciate your most recent posts.  In my opinion, bigotry is bigotry, and there is no way to excuse it.  I too had my heart broken by a bisexual woman when I was  lesbian identified.  I didn't extrapolate that experience to imply anything about all bisexual woman.  Sure, there is a certain risk in dating a bisexual woman who is open to feelings for both genders...there is more "competition".  And dare I say that since many lesbians have had very bad experiences with men, were victimized in their lives, that they feel especially vulnerable when relating to women who have the capacity to relate to men.  Most lesbians, by choice, limit the number and type of men in their lives. But the reality is, when I was heartbroken, it wasn't because of the man, but because the woman didn't choose me.  The same thing could have happened if she had chosen another woman, or had simply decided I wasn't the one for her.  There is always the risk of uneven power in relationships and that one person will be in love and the other one won't.  It is painful, but it is no reason to politicize personal relationships.  We have taken the "personal is political" ideology too far when we try to politicize people's sexual lives.

As far as the question, why would bi women want to be in the lesbian community, the answer is simple: because we love women's energy, women's passion, women's way of relating in the world.  Why wouldn't we seek out a community of women? 

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 7:04pm

Wow.  I'm sitting here grinning in awe at my computer screen, because this is quite possibly the most incredible discussion I've ever seen on any forum or message board.  Even though some people seem to disagree pretty strongly, there are a lot of very intelligent, insightful comments that have been made, and no one's actually biting each other's heads off, so far.  High fives all around, especially for sunshine, Zoezoe, and noemie, who I think said the things I identified with the most and who replied with exactly what I would have said before I got the chance to.

Getting back to the original question of being bi, I have some thoughts.  I wouldn't quite consider myself "out of the closet," but I'm not exactly "in" either.  I don't really even have a closet.  Depression and anxiety starting during puberty can team up pretty well to prevent relationships of any sort, so I might as well have been asexual all this time as far as the outside world is concerned.  However, I very much so am not asexual, and if anyone asks, I don't usually have a problem telling them that I'm interested in both girls and guys, and on a good day, I'll flirt with both.

As much drama as there seems to be between some lesbians and some bisexual women, I get the impression that it's significantly more socially acceptable to be a bi woman than a bi man.  Obviously and unfortunately, there are still plenty of people who have trouble accepting anyone who isn't completely straight, but for the most part, in my experience, if it comes up that a girl is bi during conversation, no one thinks twice about it.  Two of my good (male) friends are or recently were dating bisexual women, and no one has even once made a big deal out of it.  On the other hand, if a guy does or says something "not straight," half the other guys in the room seem to start looking vaguely uneasy.

I honestly don't know what that's all about yet.  People joke about bisexual girls practically being trendy these days or even leer at two women flirting or being playful together, but it's like something in their opinion changes if there's more than one penis involved in a relationship.  Now that I think about it, I've seen a similar difference in reactions to lesbians and to gay men.  Is this just people I know or run into?  Is there something in our culture that says that we should react this way?  Am I completely making this up and imagining biases that aren't there?  Am I getting way off topic?

As I mentioned in a different thread, I've even heard from an openly bisexual girl, who's had relationships both with guys and with girls, who claimed that bisexual guys don't even exist.  I don't know what her reaction was to finding out that I am, because I haven't talked to her since, but this kind of thing boggles my mind.  Echoing what some others have said before me, you can have whatever preferences you want, and be in a relationship with whoever you want, as long as you're honest about what you want and no one gets hurt, and I won't have a problem with it.  I just wish everyone could be so accepting.

Sorry if I've been rambling on and on, but this is an issue that's important to me and that I think about a lot, and I don't really have anyone else with whom I get to have serious discussions about it. 

Posted by: noemie

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 7:35pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 7:04pm, nalgas wrote:As much drama as there seems to be between some lesbians and some bisexual women, I get the impression that it's significantly more socially acceptable to be a bi woman than a bi man. 

Male bisexuality and homosexuality is much more stigmatized in the mainstream community, often even in fairly liberal places, so that's where you're most likely to get your icky stigmatizing experiences from.  ):  I don't know about male bisexuality within the gay community (or glbt community), other than that it's not parallel to female bisexuality/lesbian or glbt community.

I'm leery of anyone who flat-out insists, with no empirical data, that something doesn't exist.  Here's some of the actual research: When you compare self-labeled gay and self-labeled bi men on arousal to male-male vs. female-female porn, you don't find differences - i.e. the gay men aren't more likely than the bi men to prefer male-male over female-female porn (this is, argh, whatsisname's research...). BUT this doesn't mean that bisexual men don't exist.  (I'm pretty comfortable with believing people when they tell me they exist...)  What it does mean is that the criteria people are using to label themselves often don't map onto sexual desire, emotional attraction, and sexual behavior the way we think they "ought" to.  In my experience this is true for women as well.  My undergrad lesbian/bi women's group once did a lightweight exercise where we rated ourselves on "percentage lesbian" (i.e. how strongly you're interested in women compared to men), and a number of the bisexual women scored higher than a number of the lesbians.

It also seems to be true that for men, the distribution of sexual desire is bimodal; most men are either pretty gay or pretty straight.  Again, this doesn't mean there aren't bi men; it just means that you're going to see a number of pretty exclusively gay men, and you'll see bi men less frequently.

In my undergrad group, we had exclusively lesbians, bi women, and gay men; we often asked where the bisexual men were.  One possibility is that because male bisexuality is more heavily stigmatized by the straight community, many men for whom not coming out is a possibility may be trying very hard to not come out. But that's just speculation. 

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 7:38pm

Okay, I don't know anything about what it's like to be gay. I guess I am on the spectrum between bi-curious and bisexual. I've never been in a relationship with a woman but I've had sex with women.

I want to come to BeachBip's defense because I know for a fact she's not completely against all bi-curious or bi-sexual women because then she would hate me and she doesn't. Unless she's suddenly developed a hatred for me in the last couple of days that I don't know about. Whether she hates me or not, she knows I love her.

I've made the same rant against men that she's making against bi women even though I know not all men are pigs or assholes. But it's hard to see that they're not when you're upset.

I never had a relationship with a woman because I was just too conventional. It just wasn't what I wanted, although I was down with having sex with them. I guess I was like BeachBip's ex-partner. But I never led anyone into thinking otherwise. The last time I had a chance to have a relationship with a woman was probably 6+ years ago.

Now that I'm 30 and far more comfortable with my sexuality, I would have to say that if I could have anything, I would have both. A man and a woman. A permanent threesome. Now, whether this would work in the real world is beyond me. My fiance, Ryan, says that he would live with two women. And before you say, "Well of course he would, he's a man isn't he?" consider that he would be sharing me with another person. Technically, she would be my partner even though we would be a "couple" all together. Maybe eventually, it was suggested, he would go out and get his own bisexual male partner. We're open people. Our sexuality has become more fluid as we've gotten to know each other and let each other be who we are.

Some of you, no matter what your orientation, probably think this is considerably fucked up. Most people think non-monogamy means that we can't possibly love each other. I don't think monogamy and commitment go hand in hand but I certainly don't spread it around much because people think it's deviant. They look at me like I'm whacked and they assume Ryan is gay because that must be the only way he could allow someone else to touch "his woman." Whatever. *rolls eyes*

I'm guessing this won't be a popular view. The "having both" view. Oh, and I'm with Sunshine on just about everything else. She and I are on the same page as she very well knows. *wink wink* 

Posted by: libertyjones

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 7:41pm

Quote:I would have to say that if I could have anything, I would have both. A man and a woman. A permanent threesome. Now, whether this would work in the real world is beyond me. My fiance, Ryan, says that he would live with two women. And before you say, "Well of course he would, he's a man isn't he?" consider that he would be sharing me with another person. Technically, she would be my partner even though we would be a "couple" all together. 

me too! because i could never give up my husband but miss having a woman in my life. you are very lucky. 

Posted by: BeachBiP

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 8:41pm

Ok, whoa now, little nellys - I don't think that disdain of men and hatred of bi-women were actually being asserted here.  Not by me, for certain.  I have no hatred for either species, man or bi-girl.  After so many years of hearing rumors about bi-women, one bit me, and I was broken hearted.  I don't hate all bi-women because of her anymore than I would hate all Jewish/Catholics because of her.  Of course, I'm Jewish/Catholic, too, so that was a safe area...   

There have been some fabulous comments and arguments -pardon the expression - going both ways - on this thread.  I've learned a lot.  I've learned that when I was younger, I was a lot more open to less judgment, more fluid sexuality and nondiscrimination.  It took more than just one bisexual person to shut my sexual door, I have known many as bi-friends, and as much as I love them, I know, as I think Libby said earlier on, that they can never understand my life.  Which if actually fine, because I can never understand theirs.  Except, I don't want to visit theirs sexually.

Regarding bisexual MEN -- I have to say, coming from a family of lots of men, that in reality, most men are bisexual but are sure as hell NEVER going to admit that to you!  In my family, with the guys, sex is sex, and if you're with someone, that's great - but sex outside the relationship, with men or women, is just SEX.  Maybe like bisexual women?

Teddy knows I love her, too.

There are active bisexuals who desire men and women in ways like some of you described, like Teddy - being with one and still wanting to have sex with the other.  And then there seem to be bisexuals who, although attracted to both sexes, choose one to be with and they just want to be with that one person.  It doesn't diminish their attraction to the other sex, they are just committed or in love with their mate.  Is this kind of the gamut?  Have I missed anyone?

So, in the way I can say, for example, that I might not be attracted to short women, I think that I should be able to say that I am not attracted to bisexual women.  I probably also would not be attracted to a right-wing Christian.  It's just preference.  But I wish bisexuals no ill will.  Why, some of my best friends...  lol...

And I'm not voting for a constitutional amendment to ban your heterosexual marriages, either.  That's how liberal-minded I am about you people....     

Posted by: noemie

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 8:52pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:54pm, BeachBiP wrote:Why do bi or bi-curious woman want to be IN the lesbian community?  To find experimental prey? 

on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:54pm, BeachBiP wrote:I let a woman into my life a few years ago - she came seeking me out in MY community. 

on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:54pm, BeachBiP wrote:If you can't play with the Big Dogs (Dykes), then get off the porch. 

I AM A BIG DOG!! Stay off my porch and play with your own kind!

The characterization of bi women as only involved to find "experimental prey," representing bi women as intruding into YOUR community, the implied notion that bisexual women "can't play with the Big Dogs" and should "get off the porch" and "play with [their] own kind" is why people are responding strongly and negatively to your post.  As well as the equation of bisexual with bi-curious.

Posted by: noemie

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 8:55pm

this is the point at which I duck out of the discussion for a while, because it's getting too hard to handle emotionally.  sorry, guys. 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 9:24pm

Quote:What has surprised me the most is how much blatant hostility there is amongst the lesbian community against bi-sexual women. And believe me, having discovered it, I don't want in.   

And the blatant hostility from bi women toward lesbians is not appreciated either.

It is my choice to date lesbians only, based upon MY personal experience, after trying bi women THREE times, years apart, and being dumped each time, not because I was the wrong woman, but because I was A woman.  The bigotry was on their parts, not mine.

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:04pm

I'm not going to even pretend that I have even the vaguest idea what it's like to be a lesbian or bisexual woman, or female at all, for that matter (tangent: that's one reason (of many) that I think girls are nifty, because if there's one thing I know I can't do, no matter how hard I try, it's be female), but I think this has to do with everyone, not just them.

It's entirely possible (and I'll assume it's true in the cases that people have said so, since you all know your own experiences better than I ever could) that the bad experiences the lesbians have had with the bisexual women and that the bisexual women have had with lesbians have been because the other person was "bigoted" (that word seems to be coming up an awful lot...) or led you on to think that they might want something they didn't.  Don't let that get to you and make you become the same way, though.  It's perfectly fine, reasonable, and understandable to not want to have a relationship with someone like that again, and no one can tell you or make you do otherwise.  Just please don't generalize what happened to you and apply it to everyone, because I have a feeling that it would only make things worse, not better.

I am absolutely not directing this at anyone in particular, or even any specific group(s) of people.  I think it's applicable to everyone and all types of people they might encounter in their lives.  I really don't want to sound like I'm being preachy or telling anyone what to do, so just take this as a suggestion or an idea from someone who feels bad when people don't get along. 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:10pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 9:24pm, Libby wrote:And the blatant hostility from bi women toward lesbians is not appreciated either. 

Have I come across as being hostile? I ask because I often feel like my tone is taken the wrong way in electronic communication. I know I was a little pissed off when I wrote my last post, but I wasn't feeling hostility towards anyone.

on Mar 19th, 2005, 9:24pm, Libby wrote:It is my choice to date lesbians only, based upon MY personal experience 

I don't take any issue with this, Libby. I don't even mind the idea that lesbian women in general avoid bi-sexual women in general. I won't date men who are 10 years or more older than me or who have been divorced within the last two years for pretty much the same reasons (got burned too many times in the past). We all develop these little "rules" based on our own personal experiences. It's the categorical generalizations that were rubbing me the wrong way. 

on Mar 19th, 2005, 8:41pm, BeachBiP wrote:So, in the way I can say, for example, that I might not be attracted to short women, I think that I should be able to say that I am not attracted to bisexual women.  I probably also would not be attracted to a right-wing Christian.  It's just preference.  But I wish bisexuals no ill will.  Why, some of my best friends...  lol... 

Exactly! 

on Mar 19th, 2005, 8:41pm, BeachBiP wrote:And I'm not voting for a constitutional amendment to ban your heterosexual marriages, either.  That's how liberal-minded I am about you people.... 

FWIW... I voted a big fat NO on that one.

on Mar 19th, 2005, 6:43pm, Zoezoe wrote:As far as the question, why would bi women want to be in the lesbian community, the answer is simple: because we love women's energy, women's passion, women's way of relating in the world.  Why wouldn't we seek out a community of women? 

I couldn't have said it better, Zoezoe.

I, too, may bow out of this little discussion/debate as, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care whether or not I'm "accepted" by the lesbian community* and don't wish to cause any hard or hurt feelings. 

sunshine

(who isn't sure how she got sucked into this discussion as she generally avoids conflict like the plague)

*Edited to add: After re-reading this, I realized it sounded a bit rude. It's not that I don't care... it's just not something that is important to me as I've never tried to enter the lesbian community and therefore don't have any experiences (good or bad) to make me particularly passionate about it. What I am passionate about, however, is the concept of judging all members of a particular group based on the behaviors or traits of some members. My feelings on this matter would be the same, no matter which group was being discused. 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:13pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 7:38pm, Teddy wrote:I'm guessing this won't be a popular view. The "having both" view. Oh, and I'm with Sunshine on just about everything else. She and I are on the same page as she very well knows. *wink wink*

This thread is getting a little too heated for me, Teddy. I'll respond to this in your other thread. 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:19pm

Yes, it got heated.  If bi women state, "I only want women for sex because my hetero relationship is so much more socially acceptable," you can bet your ass that lesbians are going to react.  Thinking otherwise is naive at best.

I think it's my turn to bow out as well, not because it got "heated," but because I have nothing further.

 

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:33pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 10:19pm, Libby wrote:Yes, it got heated.  If bi women state, "I only want women for sex because my hetero relationship is so much more socially acceptable," you can bet your ass that lesbians are going to react.  Thinking otherwise is naive at best. 

If u r referring to me that is not what I said..i have had Bi relationships as well as friendships..and as far as what is socially acceptable I could give a crap less..I would never want to hurt a women that is why I have never pursudes a true lesbian, b/c i am not totally that and would not want to put her in a situation she would be uncomfortable..

I dunno..I like women.and I like men and that how I feel..I really wouldnt want either,or, so I have both..and thats the way I feel..

I didnt realize this thread was gonna get this heated..so i guess its done.

Sorry I made ppl feel they had to explain themselves..u shouldnt..whatever u feel is fine, and whatever u are is fine..i have realized that.

Cris 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:50pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 10:33pm, cris78 wrote:I didnt realize this thread was gonna get this heated..so i guess its done.

Sorry I made ppl feel they had to explain themselves..u shouldnt..whatever u feel is fine, and whatever u are is fine..i have realized that.

Hey... don't sweat it, Cris. As I said earlier, prejudice is nothing but ignorance. A little controversy is good for for the soul and has generated some very meaningful discussion. I don't think I'm the only one that can say I've learned a lot here - most of it good. 

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:29pm

Aww, just when I was getting into it, everyone's getting out of it.  People rarely get this passionate talking about things like their side effects, so it was a nice change of pace.  It's things like this that make it worth getting out of bed in the morning (says the guy who has too much apathy (yay depression) or too little courage (yay anxiety) to get up some days, much less join a discussion like this).  It's been fun.  I'm usually up for talking about this sort of stuff, so if anyone else ever is, feel free to let me know.  So, uh, hugs and puppies and sunshine and flowers all around (except for anyone who's not into those sorts of things), and let's leave things on a positive note.  Or something.  And stuff. 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:36pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 9:34pm, Libby wrote:

Yes, it is, but what do you expect when you state that you're bi, but you like women just for meaningless sex and men for committed relationships because it's socially acceptable?  That is a hell of a way to start a conversation in an lgbt forum.  I would guess that in a bi forum, no eyebrows would be raised, but among lesbians, people will react.  It's insulting to lesbians who don't want to ever be in that position.  It's not insulting to other bi women who feel the same way you do. 

I'm responding to this here because I didn't think Liberty needed to get drawn into things at this point. Though I really should throw in the towel before I further antagonize or alienate anyone.

However... I feel the need to defend myself here. I did not start this discussion... I never stated I was bi (though I did indicate previous sexual experiences with women)... and most of all, I DID NOT say that I "like women just for meaningless sex." I've reread all my posts and can't see where this was even implied. In fact, I think I've done a pretty damn good job of being completely honest without being insensitive.

That said, I don't know shit about what it's like to be in your shoes, so if I have been unknowingly insensitive, please cut me some slack for my naivity and accept my deepest apologies.

sunshine 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:38pm

on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:26pm, sunshine wrote:Isn't the gay/lesbian community furthering their minority status by excluding members that share only partial commonality? It seems much like (for example), members of the Asian community shunning a member because they married someone of a different race - or excluding the offspring of such a union because they are only half Asian.

Actually, this does happen in other minority communities as well. My partner is Asian-American and she says that it's not uncommon for similar divisions to happen there -- those of Chinese background won't talk to the SouthEast Asians, who won't talk to the Koreans and so forth.

Quote:Sincerely hoping I haven't offended,

Stop apologizing! We're just exploring a topic here together. 

Fiona 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:50pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 8:38am, Libby wrote:Neither do I.  I even have male friends.  That's a big stereotype about lesbians that is just not true.  Lesbians in general are neutral about men in general. 

I don't care too much about men one way or the other. I certainly don't hate them, I have good relationships with many men. My dissertation chair is a man, so are the other two on the committee. My pdoc/therapist is a man. (All, granted met and appointed before I figured myself out.) Oddly, I don't have any male friends.

Fiona 

Posted by: Zoezoe

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:54pm

And the blatant hostility from bi women toward lesbians is not appreciated either.

Libby, this is such a misrepresentation on your part.  Bisexual women expressing frustration at being ostracized by the lesbian community is NOT hostility toward lesbians.  There has  been no categorical judgements against lesbians by any of the bisexual women.  It is such a reversal, to be the one who is promoting bigotry, then when we point it out to cry foul.  Hold whatever position you want...but don't be dishonest.

I don't wish you any ill will, but it is upsetting to hear this kind of mischaracterization.  Hell, the bisexual women I've known have been much more supportive of lesbians than the reverse.  I think that is the same on this thread as well.  It is upsetting to find that even here at Crazymeds there would be such animosity.  It causes me much pain to find that I don't belong in any community any longer, not the heterosexual community, nor the lesbian.  Whatever we indicidually choose for ourselves, if we aren't affirming the rights of all women, then it isn't  much of a feminist vision.  Perhaps I shouldn't hold the lesbian community to such standards, but I do believe in radical feminism, and see lesbianism as a place where we should logically see a commitment to a radical feminist vision.  For me that means challenging ourselves to look at our internalized oppression, take responsibility for how we act it out, and practice radical acceptance and compassion.

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:56pm

on Mar 19th, 2005, 11:38pm, Fiona wrote:Stop apologizing! We're just exploring a topic here together. 

Thanks, Fiona. That's what I thought, too. But I didn't realize how sensitive a topic it was! LOL. As for the apologizing, it's what I do. Self-esteem issues and all that. At the moment I'm just proud of myself for not turning around and running the second this discussion turned into a heated debate. I tend to avoid conflict at all costs until it builds up and comes exploding out in very unpleasant ways.  -sunshine 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 5:58am

Merciful Minerva.

I step out of the room for five minutes, and what happens?

Actually, I had been cogitating for some time trying to formulate a reply to BeachBiP's initial post.  I have to say that what it seemed most like to me was an opportunity for Beach to decompress about an intensely unpleasant time in her life related to the topic at hand.  As Teddy remarked later (thank you, Teddy), "But it's hard to see that they're not when you're upset."

This is not to detract in any way from Beach's salient points, but may go some distance in explaining the more hyperbolic elements of her commentary.

Look at the weight of the posts overall.  There is more than one story of heartbreak here, and heartbreak is not fair (I've got a fresh fracture myself from a woman who didn't want to stay married to a man who accepted his faggitude.  Who can blame her?).  But it happens, and we simply friggin' can't help being angry about it.

Remember, a grain of salt.  A grain of salt.

Everyone who has contributed to this discussion has demonstrated a remarkable level of introspection and reasoned thought at some level.  (And no, Sunshine, you have not offended anyone.  GAH!)  Things only became heated when the discussion pressed some people's hard-earned bruises.  Some chips got knocked off some shoulders.  So what?  As Lucy VanPelt said, "If you go around watching every word you say, you'll never get much said."

Don't be afraid to say the outrageous.

Cerberus (whose brain has currently turned into Barnum & Bailey's Three-Ring Circus and they're having a problem with the lion-taming)

P.S.  You want to talk about feminist exclusion?  Try being the only male in a graduate Master's Degree track in literature at Simmons College in Boston.  Talk about marginalized.  Yikes. 

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 9:11am

I'm going to take another unpopular stance since I got away with it the last time (about having the permanent threesome or, if my fiance had his way also--which he certainly could--a permanent foursome and yes, I guess we are deviants)...

It is my personal political belief that traditionally oppressed groups deserve the right to be exclusionary and elitist. Yes. That's right. The lesbians get to exclude the bisexual women and the Asians get to exclude the half-Asians and they ALL most certainly get to exclude the white, heterosexual, Christian male (WHCM) even if one of those WHCM's are a husband of a bisexual woman or an Asian. (I'm thinking we have no WHCM's on this thread who I will offend with this remark except maybe one former WHCM and that might be Cerebrus.)

I'm no promoter of bigotry or prejudice. On the other hand, blacks and Asians and gays and lesbians have been excluded from the white, hetersexual, Christian world for so long (oh, and not only that, let's not forget people...they burned gays at the stake in Medieval times and and the Nazis gassed them right along with the Jews and the Slavs and the Gypsies and all the other "undesireables") that I think if they want to close the door, they should be allowed to close the door. 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 9:33am

Quote:Libby...  It is such a reversal, to be the one who is promoting bigotry, then when we point it out to cry foul.  Hold whatever position you want...but don't be dishonest. 

zoezoe, that is vicious, below the belt, and blatantly FALSE.  I may be many things, but I am NOT dishonest, nor am I "promoting bigotry." Integrity is very important to me, and this is an out and out attack on my integrity.  I have been on the receiving end of bigotry FROM bi women, repeatedly, in my real life.  If you're angry at the "lesbian community," insult the community as a whole, not me PERSONALLY.

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 9:45am

I'm going to kind of agree and kind of disagree with Teddy.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can exclude anyone else they want, whether or not they're a "traditionally oppressed group," with some exceptions, of course.  I think everyone should be treated equally in terms of the rights and respect they're given by both law and society, and no one should be excluded from the possibilities of things like education and employment.  However, if you want to have a group or a club or whatever that includes or excludes whoever you want, go for it.  Only lesbians allowed?  That's up to you.  Only people named Stan born during May or August in an even-numbered year in the 70s?  Whatever.

With that said, though, it would be nice if no one were left out of anything, at least not because of dislike or distrust.  I was raised as a white, heterosexual, Christian male (despite never personally believing I was Christian and not considering myself heterosexual for a while at this point, but two out of four ain't bad, and I could probably pass as all four if I cared to try...) in a very liberal environment, so I'm pretty lacking in the kinds of life experiences to know what it's been like for some people.  So, it's completely up to you (plural, general) who you like and don't like and who you want to do things with and not do things with, but hopefully someday people (in general) who are different will be more accepted, and this won't be such a big issues or such a touchy subject.

Blah blah blah.  Ramble ramble ramble.  Babble babble babble.  This is all a bunch of personal opinion, and I just got out of bed, so add grains of salt to taste. 

Posted by: Teddy Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 9:58am

Nalgas, I personally agree and disagree with myself, too. I mean, I wish everyone would include everyone else, too. I'm just saying that my political opinion is, you know, as I stated.

And despite the, um...strong feelings on this thread, Crazy Talk is one of the few places I've been where I've felt like everyone really tries their damndest to make everyone feel like they belong.

Nalgas, I assumed because of your handle that you weren't white. Where I come from nalgas means butt and I assumed you were non-white because you chose a Spanish handle. (Forgive me my assumption...as they say...never assume... )

Posted by: Zoezoe

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 10:17am

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.  It just doesn't feel productive or healthy.  It does demonstrate beautifully the dynamic that drove me out of the lesbian community.  I'd rather surround myself with a chosen community of  women who are political feminists and want to be allies, whether they are lesbian, straight or bi, then force my way into a community dedicated to identifying itself by its victimization, and accepting of very few.  It's an exclusive club, and that aspect just doesn't appeal to me nor does it fit with my image of a true feminist revolution. Anyone remember the phrase "the unity of oppression"...we are linked by our common experiences with oppression, however the specifics differ. 

It's been an illuminating discussion.  I wish everyone happiness in their lives. 

*walks away with her head down, licking her very old wounds* 

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 10:19am

on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:58am, Teddy wrote:Nalgas, I personally agree and disagree with myself, too. I mean, I wish everyone would include everyone else, too. I'm just saying that my political opinion is, you know, as I stated.

And despite the, um...strong feelings on this thread, Crazy Talk is one of the few places I've been where I've felt like everyone really tries their damndest to make everyone feel like they belong.

Nalgas, I assumed because of your handle that you weren't white. Where I come from nalgas means butt and I assumed you were non-white because you chose a Spanish handle. (Forgive me my assumption...as they say...never assume... :-[) 

There's nothing to forgive.  It's a perfectly reasonable thing to assume.  Before I sort of lost the ability to go to school, I took some Spanish and did well with it (my immediate family has a thing for languages, for some reason), at least until I stopped using it regularly and forgot how to speak it.  If my family were any whiter, we'd be clear, but a couple of us (not me, so far) have spent a decent amount of time in Mexico and South America, so I guess it didn't just come out of nowhere.  Let's just say that I had a weird Spanish class that picked strange nicknames for ourselves/each other.  My "secret identity" I use online has been Nalgas D. Lemur for years. 

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 10:49am

Quote:me: what do you expect when you state that you're bi, but you  like women just for meaningless sex and men for committed relationships because it's socially acceptable?

Quote:sunshine: However... I feel the need to defend myself here. I did not start this discussion... I never stated I was bi (though I did indicate previous sexual experiences with women)... and most of all, I DID NOT say that I "like women just for meaningless sex." I've reread all my posts and can't see where this was even implied.   

Because I am crazy, but I am not a liar, I need to respond.  First of all, my entire phrase was "like women just for meaningless sex and men for committed relationships because it's socially acceptable." 

OK, you're not bi.  But the rest is certainly implied here:

Quote:sunshine: I've never been in a relationship with another woman, but I have had sexual experiences with a few. I often find myself attracted to attractive women, but overall, prefer men. That said, were it not for the social stigma, I'd have no objection to giving a same-sex relationship a try.  

and by another poster here:

Quote:cris:  i agree sunshine..i prefer men for relationships..but i think i just view women as something sexual, and have no desire to be in a commited relationship.

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 11:07am

Okay, so much for playing peacekeeper.

*Puts on Moderator cap, bad fit, causes hat-hair*

Lookit, hermanos, personal jabs are just not necessary on this thread, or indeed anywhere in CrazyTalk, and will cease, capice?  I won't have people walking away from threads with their tail tucked.  This is a support group, for crying out loud.  I don't care what your particular sociopolitical sacred cows are, nobody here knows anybody well enough to extrapolate something as complex as personal motivation and world-view from an internet post.

I reserve the right to edit out personal attacks on this board, and I believe Liberty, Groovy, Fiona and Jerod will back me up on this.

Un-wad your knickers.  Chill.  Everybody.  Jeez.

Cerberus

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 11:11am

I'm with Nalgas in that I really wanted to talk about what it meant to be bi. Does it mean that you are only sexually attracted to both sexes or does it mean that you have to also be sexually and emotiionally attracted to both sexes or does it mean that you have to be emotionally and sexually attracted to both sexes plus want to be in a relationship with them, regardless of societal pressures otherwise? If you shy away from a same sex relationship because of societal pressures then are you really bi? I guess the answer is no.

I would say that I've probably been in love with all of my female best friends. I used to make that kind of deep emotional attachment to them. I feel like I'm starting to make that kind of attachment to a new female friend. They were the most important person in my life. I've only had three real relationships with men in my life but certainly my valid relationships with women number more than that.

I've had sex with very few of these women with whom I've had these deep, emotional relationships, though. And I have been attracted to these women so it's not like they were only my friends. Does that make me bi? We had non-sexual, emotional relationships.

One of them was a very serious relationship that bordered on psychotic. My borderline personality disorder (my diagnosis) bulimic (doctor's diagnosis) ex-best friend/roommate, Shannon. We kissed many times but never had sex. We both admitted we were attracted to each other. We were inseparable for long periods of time and even lived together for a year here and there. When we fought to the point that we were not speaking, it felt like "breaking up." It was that intense level of emotional devastation.

Maybe being bipolar makes anything I say about sex or relationships null and void. I don't know. My therapist seems to think that the fact that Ryan lets me have sex outside of the relationship (which I haven't done in a year) WRONG WRONG WRONG and the fact that I might want to means HYPOMANIA HYPOMANIA HYPOMANIA. And for the most part, I will agree (with the hypomania, not the wrong). But if love enters into it?

I mean, it's so hard to define this. I never thought to define or not define myself as "bi" or "straight" or "bi-curious" until recently.

The real reason I never considered a relationship with a woman is because 1) most of the women I had sex with were straight and experimenting like I was; 2) the one gay woman I had sex with (once) was obsessed with her bitch user ex-girlfriend who I TOLD HER not to go back to (but she did) and, besides, we were really only ever friends (I think she always meant to go back to her ex); 3) the one truly bisexual woman I encountered never called me back after the first time we had sex. (Maybe I was bad?)

So I don't know if I really am bi. If you want to know the truth, Ryan (my fiance) is nice like women are commonly thought to be nice. He's not macho like men are commonly thought to be macho. Don't get me wrong, he's a man, but emotionally, he's very soft and gentle and not at all like what you expect men to be like. I'm constantly told how lucky I am by women. He's the caretaker type, like a woman. He works all week and then will sort the laundry on Sunday and go with me to the laundromat even though I haven't worked all week and have just been sitting on my ass posting on Crazy Talk. I mean, this doesn't mean he knows how to properly load a dishwasher, but...(sorry, couldn't help but fall back on those stereotypes. Besides, it's true. He doesn't know how to properly load a dishwasher.)

Edited to add: I posted while Cerebrus was posting his. I feel kinda dumb now.   

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 11:21am

See what happens when I wait a few minutes to think before posting something?  Cerberus goes and says exactly what I was thinking (except for the moderator part) when I'm not looking.

I'm just a tie-dyed shirt away from looking like a peace-loving hippy, so I was considering sticking a flower in the barrels of each of your guns, but that doesn't seem to be working.  From my point of view, I think everyone's defended themselves plenty at this point, and if anyone still disagrees with someone else now, we might just have to live with that disagreement for the time being.  I personally wouldn't mind getting back to the non-aggressive support and insights like earlier in the thread, but maybe that's just me.

Either way, I don't think you want to make Cerberus angry.  You won't like him when he's angry.  Well, I don't really know that...but you have to admit, it would be pretty funny to see someone like him Hulk Smash anyone who gets out of line, including me.

 

Posted by: libertyjones

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 11:30am

Quote:I reserve the right to edit out personal attacks on this board, and I believe Liberty, Groovy, Fiona and Jerod will back me up on this.

got your back Cerberus.

   

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 11:38am

Quote:I reserve the right to edit out personal attacks on this board, and I believe Liberty, Groovy, Fiona and Jerod will back me up on this. 

Thank you. 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 5:50pm

on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:11am, Teddy wrote:I'm with Nalgas in that I really wanted to talk about what it meant to be bi. Does it mean that you are only sexually attracted to both sexes or does it mean that you have to also be sexually and emotiionally attracted to both sexes or does it mean that you have to be emotionally and sexually attracted to both sexes plus want to be in a relationship with them, regardless of societal pressures otherwise? If you shy away from a same sex relationship because of societal pressures then are you really bi? I guess the answer is no. 

I think this is a very salient point.  I have always cogitated the possibility of a difference between "sexually attracted" and "relationship attracted" as a source of self-confusion and mental angst.  I find myself sexually attracted to men, but somewhat more relationship attracted to women.  I have too many ethical hang-ups to sleep around for the fun of it, and too much conscience to entertain a relationship with someone if my physical attention is darting around elsewhere.

Quote:Maybe being bipolar makes anything I say about sex or relationships null and void.

What is this nonsense?  This is CrazyTalk.  The boards out there where you can talk about relationships are legion.  Here, we talk about relationships as related to looniness.  Neither null nor void.

Quote:Edited to add: I posted while Cerebrus was posting his. I feel kinda dumb now.   

Why?  There is nothing wrong with this post.  It asks questions and makes a case, just as it's supposed to, without needling anybody or indulging in careless generalizations.

Cerberus (Who not only knows how to load a dishwasher, but can also install one...) 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 9:01pm

on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:07am, Cerberus wrote:*Puts on Moderator cap, bad fit, causes hat-hair*

I only wear a hat at about 35F or lower.

I believe Liberty, Groovy, Fiona and Jerod will back me up on this. 

Of course.

Fiona 

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 9:30pm

on Mar 20th, 2005, 5:50pm, Cerberus wrote:Why?  There is nothing wrong with this post.  It asks questions and makes a case, just as it's supposed to, without needling anybody or indulging in careless generalizations

Cerberus (Who not only knows how to load a dishwasher, but can also install one...)  .

I thought you said no personal jokes. LOL!!! And I'd just made the joke about my fiance not being able to load the dishwasher. You said no personal jabs. I thought maybe you were trying to get after those who were making light of the issue? (I get flamed often for being flippant in my family. In fact, just friday in a big way for being flippant about money of all things.) Oh, I don't know Cerebrus! It didn't make sense to me, either, when I read it as no personal jokes. Now it makes perfect sense! No personal jabs!

You misread one word and you're just completely lost.

Okay, I don't feel dumb anymore. 

Edited to add: I find it fascinating that you are attracted to men for sex and women for relationships and I also find it fascinating that you can install a dishwasher.

 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 20th, 2005, 11:16pm

I've gone back and forth all day trying to decide whether to continue with this thread because, as Zoezoe stated earlier, it's not feeling particularly healthy or productive. Ultimately, however, the need to be understood won out. I hate having my words twisted around even more than I hate conflict.

on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:49am, Libby wrote:Quote:sunshine: However... I feel the need to defend myself here. I did not start this discussion... I never stated I was bi (though I did indicate previous sexual experiences with women)... and most of all, I DID NOT say that I "like women just for meaningless sex." I've reread all my posts and can't see where this was even implied. 

Because I am crazy, but I am not a liar, I need to respond.  First of all, my entire phrase was "like women just for meaningless sex and men for committed relationships because it's socially acceptable."

OK, you're not bi.  But the rest is certainly implied here: 

Quote:sunshine: I've never been in a relationship with another woman, but I have had sexual experiences with a few. I often find myself attracted to attractive women, but overall, prefer men. That said, were it not for the social stigma, I'd have no objection to giving a same-sex relationship a try.

How is it implied here? I never said these experiences were meaningless.

[Cerberus]

Part 3 of the Digest

________________________________

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 12:07pm

I am so sorry I sterted this thread..I only did it w/ good intentions..I never ment to hurt others or offend others..I love all types of ppl, it doesnt matter to me..perhaps it is b/c im bipolar, the way i feel for women..hypersexual..but I do love them, care for them..But I also know that I would never tread water w/ a true lesbian..but saying that it doesnt mean the 2 cant be friends..thats all i ment..and yes I have settled down w/ a man. not for social acceptance b.c when i married him he was blind in one eye and disfigured..since been fixed w/ surgery..but saying that i still am attracted to women..and i cant help it..i cant help the way I FEEL...and of course im attracted to a women on a sexual or phyiscal manner..but who isnt??...but after that she could be the hottest thing on the planet but have a really shitty personality, i wouldnt persue it...so no disrespect to lesbians or gay men...I do believe Im an bisexual..and however it is accepted or not is u're choice..

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 12:12pm

on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:20am, reddog wrote:i have a lot of bi friends, and friends who are also polyamorous 

reddog, I didn't mean to cut out so much of your post, but if there is a word to describe me and bi-curious or bisexual doesn't do it, then this word does.

POLYAMOROUS!!!

What a fabulous word!! What a beautiful, non-political, inclusive word! I love it! I'm so stealing it!

Let me think about the question you asked before responding. I just wanted to address this word right away. From now on, this is how I think of myself. Not straight, not bi...polyamorous. 

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 12:17pm

on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:07pm, cris78 wrote:I am so sorry I sterted this thread..I only did it w/ good intentions..I never ment to hurt others or offend others 

Cris, you have no need to apologize. I think this is a great thread. It's made me think about a lot of things. My fiance and I have had some great discussions because of it and it's sparked a few interesting posts over on my thread. You can't be completely responsible for the way threads you start end up. It's the moderators responsibility to ensure that nobody gets too ugly and they will do that. Trust me.

Anyway, don't apologize for who you are or what you feel. You're entitled to your feelings and so is everyone else. However, you're not responsible for what they feel and I'm not under the impression that you personally caused anyone on this thread to hurt.

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 12:27pm

on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:17pm, Teddy wrote:

Cris, you have no need to apologize. I think this is a great thread. It's made me think about a lot of things. My fiance and I have had some great discussions because of it and it's sparked a few interesting posts over on my thread. You can't be completely responsible for the way threads you start end up. It's the moderators responsibility to ensure that nobody gets too ugly and they will do that. Trust me.

Anyway, don't apologize for who you are or what you feel. You're entitled to your feelings and so is everyone else. However, you're not responsible for what they feel and I'm not under the impression that you personally caused anyone on this thread to hurt.

Thanx Teddy..

Its the parnoia comming thru..i think everyone hates me b/c i started it..I know its silly...Thanks for the kind words..

Hugs

Cris

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 12:49pm

on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:20am, reddog wrote:hey, mods...i'd like to ask that you not lock this thread. 

I was sorely tempted to do exactly that this morning, reddog, but I think you are right, that the discussion is generally productive.  That said, I'm losing patience with emotional outbursts.  If y'all feel that you simply must castigate, chastise, admonish, correct, berate, cat-scratch, emotionally flog, remonstrate with, tongue-lash (not in the good way), smite, hiss at, pillory, excoriate, abuse, pour a can of whoop-ass on, or otherwise flame one another, do it by IM, and not on this board.  If  you can't find a middle ground on your points of view, agree to disagree and be done, or at least take it outside.

I've said all I intend to say on the matter.  Any further outburst may result in the removal of the entire offending post.  Repeated disregard will result in the topic being locked.  *attempts to jangle keys menacingly, realizes he only has one key and that can't jangle itself, and settles for glowering a discomfiting sort of way*

Cerberus (grr.  grr.  grr.)

P.S. Cris  -- Honey, dont' you dare apologise for starting this thread.  Judging by the response, it was a topic that badly wanted discussing.  Good for you for bringing it out of the...well... closet. 

Posted by: Zoezoe

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 1:02pm

I think Cerberus hit on something that is really what this thread is meant to be about...what defines bisexuality?  In reality we are talking about relational orientation as I've heard it described(emotional intimacy) and sexual orientation (the physical desire).  If you are bisexual you might be relationally more drawn to men, but sexually more drawn to women.  Or it could be the reverse, you could be relationally drawn to women, but more sexually drawn to men.  Or the two could converge and your relational and sexual orientation could be for both. It is even more complex than that, because you may find individual men or women to be desireable for sex or a relationship, but find your overall preference is more often for one gender.  Finally you may be polyamorous and feel it is not an issue of which gender but of which individual you are attracted to, irrespective of gender.  All of these comprise what it means to be bisexual.

Years ago I read a fascinating book called "Rocking the Ship of State" which was about bisexuality.  They interviewed bisexuals who defined themselves in unique and myriad ways.  Some of them were in monogomous relationships.  Some had open relationships and simultaneously dated and were sexual with both genders.  Some were primarily with one gender, but occasionally felt the need to sleep casually with the other gender to fulfill their identities.  Then there were the women (I think the book was mostly about women) who considered themselves to be lesbians but who happened to meet a man with whom they were currently in a monogomous relationship.  How each person defined themselves and expressed their desire was a very personal decision, one which was worked out between them and their partner(s).

The point is that there are many ways to define one's sexual identity, and it isn't binary or dualistic, not an either/or.  As Cerberus and others have pointed out in similar discussions, sexual orientation is on a continuum.  Some people are totally gay/lesbian, or totally heterosexual.  Many others, if given a supportive environment in which to explore their desire would find they are somewhere in between.

When I stepped away from the lesbian community it wasn't because anything bad had happened to me.  It was because I had seen the intolerance that was shown toward bisexual women and I wanted to explore my identity free of external pressure.  I hadn't let pressure from the heterosexual community interfere with my exploring my lesbian identity, and I sure wasn't going to let pressure from the lesbian community hinder me in exploring my possible bisexuality. It was also because I had been hurt on two occasions by bisexual women (one of whom was/is the love of my life), and I didn't want to possibly hurt another woman in the same way.  I felt it was my responsibility to first sort out for myself who I was and what was my truth about my sexual orientation.  I'd always planned to be open to intimate relationships with women, and persue them once I got clearer what this new found desire for men meant.  I also knew that if I determined I was bisexual, there were large numbers of lesbians who wouldn't consider me a suitable partner.  Chalk it up to their internalized oppression, but none-the-less it would affect to a great degree the course of my relational life.

I've heard it said before that bigotry toward gays and lesbians has been acknowledged and we are fighting the battle for acceptance, but that bisexuality is where the new battle lies.  Bisexual women experience the same bigotry that lesbians do if they express their desire for women.  At that moment you are a woman-loving-woman, and you are subject to the same kinds of hate and discrimination that a died-in-the-wool lesbian does.  Along with that, you have to deal with the bigotry by the lesbian/gay community who judges you for not being a "real" lesbian and as we've seen on this thread, don't think you belong in "their community".  A double whammy.  Add to that that most bisexuals don't feel at home in the traditional heterosexual community, which means you really don't have an "community" except the one you create by choosing individuals with whom to relate.  It means a life of exclusion and oppression all the way around.  So I take exception to those who think that bisexual women have it easier.  It just isn't the case.

Learning to understand and express your desire is a long and difficult process.  It continues over the course of a lifetime for many of us.  I look forward to the day when we are supportive of each person's unique journey. 

Posted by: reddog Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 1:15pm

cris, do not be sorry.  you had a very valid question, one that hit a nerve and touched many people deeply.  if it has that much meaning and weight, then it is a question that needs to be asked and explored. 

i say again: this is quite like what effective therapy feels like, you learn a lot but it's not always a pleasant experience.

cerberus is right, this is a question that badly needed to come out the closet.

and you know what?  i learned a lot too.  damn i'm at work, shouldn't be here, will type a whole hell of a lot more at home.

ps, Teddy, that's the actual accepted term for people like me....google it, then educate your damn doc.  this whole notion that the ONLY healthy relationship is a mutually exclusive one between 2 people is BS.  for most people, monogamy is how they are wired, but for some of us, we not only dance to a different drummer, we have multi partners....

Posted by: reddog

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 1:23pm

oh, and Cerberus?  i'm not a mod, but i will volunteer to 'settle this for you once and for all' as my dad used to say:  i'll take my super-anal Virgo researching things to the last meticulous detail skills, and track everyone's comments, who they are posted to, rate them by imflammatoryness and then assign them to the original poster....

that's a joke(!) not a (real) threat people, i'm tyring to point out we need to relax a bit on this to keep this going, i think this is a very valuable discussion for our fellow members who are coming out/realizing that they are bi. 

Posted by: Zoezoe Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 2:02pm

Update to my above post:  I can't find the book I referenced above.  I don't know if I have the title wrong or whether it is out of print.  I did find some interesting books, however and will list just a few titles.

* Closer to Home: Bisexuality and Feminism

* Bisexuality and the Challenge to Lesbian Politics

(I'm planning on getting this one!)

* Bi Any Other Name: Bisexual People Speak Out

* Bi Lives - Bisexual Women Tell Their Stories

There were many more, but these caught my name as I was reading some of the summaries.

Maybe we can get an online book discussion going.

Posted by: Teddy

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 4:37pm

on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:20am, reddog wrote:what does bi mean, both to you as an individual, and to the society and culture that you live in?   

I used to be offended when one of my friends, who I happened to have sex with, albeit in a threesome/foursome setting, would say, "I could never be a lesbian because I just love DICK too much." I used to want to say back, "Well, I love DICK, too, but sometimes I love PUSSY as well."

I guess being bi or polyamorous (love it!) to me means that sometimes I want sex with a man--and I'm talking vaginal intercourse, or anal if I'm in the mood for that, which I can be--(oh, God, I can't believe I'm being this blunt but it's so like me to be this blunt) and sometimes I want sex with a woman even though obviously I can receive oral sex from my fiance. But I want to give it as well and not to a penis and also *she blushes* I love breasts. I just really love breasts. And hair. And women's soft faces. But I don't want to have sex with dildos when I have sex with women. I'm really picky about this. It's like I have very separate categories drawn about what is sex with a man and what is sex with a woman. I hope that doesn't offend anyone because it really is just my personal preference.

Sometimes I feel that the women in my life listen better than the men and admit that they're wrong quicker and easier. Not that I want a relationship with a woman because then I'll have someone to boss around. Quite the opposite. Because then I won't have to boss anyone around.

I can say, "Hey, will you please do this next time you do that?" and she'll say, "Okay," and then that'll be the last time I have to tell her. I won't have to repeat myself over and over again. I think, wow, wouldn't it be nice to live with someone who you didn't have to hang instructions in the kitchen about how to load the dishwasher for? Someone who you could be blunt with about their faults and they would think about it for a minute and then go, "Yeah, you're right." Someone who would call you on your bullshit instead of being indulgent with you all the time because it's easier than the alternative? And someone, of course, who would do all this back to you because then you wouldn't feel like you were always right and she was always wrong like it sometimes feels in my female/male relationship.

I've said on my thread that I love Ryan because he's gentle and tender and sweet like a woman (hoooo, how's that for stereotyping?) and it's true but I meant in terms of my being MI. He doesn't freak out when I, for example, cry. Well, and there is the fact that he says he loves me all the time and that I'm beautiful. I mean, I know husbands who say, "She knows I love her!" when you ask him if he ever tells his wife he loves her.

So, yeah, I do think about relationships with women but the fact is that I'm in a relationship with a man and I'm in love with him and committed to him even though I have not been sexually "faithful." So right now, unless there is a bi man or woman out there interested in a permanent threesome who Ryan and I fall in love with and who falls in love with both of us, there's just not a relationship spot open in my life anymore.

As for society and culture, I would never tell my family that I was polyamorous (am I allowed to use this term?) unless I found myself in a long-term relationship with a woman. At which point...I don't know how they would take it. I think they would do the, "Well, we love you..." but I don't know what they would think. They'd be totally flabbergasted. They would think she had put me under a spell. They would tell themselves, "But she's always been so boy crazy!" (They just don't know that I have also been girl crazy.)

I was raised Catholic but my family has relaxed a lot because I'm MI. You learn to accept certain things, like hypersexuality on the part of your child. You learn to accept that she's, well...bound to be a little different than what you might have originally expected. You learn to tell yourself things like, "As long as she's happy, then I'm happy," and really mean it. At least my mother, the one who raised me, is happy if I'm happy. The rest of my family? I don't know.

As for the rest of the world in which I live...it's pretty acceptable. We have a transvestite prof at my uni. I think that's the correct word? A man who dresses as a woman? My favorite comedian is a transvestite so I'm pretty sure I have the right term. I don't think he has had surgery. He wears dresses, makeup, has shoulder length hair that isn't a wig. Nobody blinks an eye. If I haven't said it already on this thread, San Antonio is pretty gay-friendly for being a largely Mexican, south Texas town.

My friends would be shocked at the switch from male to female lover but I think the biggest shock for everyone wouldn't be why a woman instead of a man but why break up with Ryan at all. They might think my dating a woman to be a reaction to whatever went wrong in mine and Ryan's relationship and therefore think of it as a "phase."

Is this a long enough post to answer reddog's question or what? 

Posted by: reddog

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 5:01pm

Teddy, you're bi.  trust me on this one. <grin> 

Posted by: sunshine

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 10:12pm

I very much want to rejoin this discussion, but I'm having a crappy week... PMS (which probably explains why I got so cranky on this thread), insomnia, sucky weather, love-life woes, and migraines and I just don't have the energy for it. I'm hoping it's just a dip from a recent med adjustment and that things will mellow out in the next week or so. Maybe by then tempers will have cooled (mine included). Just wanted y'all to know I haven't been permanently scared away (yet). Keep things interesting while I'm away!

sunshine

Edited (THREE times!) because I also can't spell this week. 

Posted by: cris78

Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 11:26pm

Hope things get better for u hunny!

Cris

 

Posted by: realitytest

Posted on: Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:22am

Reddog asked: Quote::

what does bi mean, both to you as an individual, and to the society and culture that you live in?

This is a serious question.  I sincerely hope nobody minds if I plunge in here as Ms.Anonymys (?) - especially at such length  . The discussion

[Cerberus]

Part 4 of the Digest

____________________________

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Apr 9th, 2005, 5:26pm

on Apr 9th, 2005, 12:22pm, noemie wrote:female bonobos have sex with each other to form female-female alliances to the extent that they've evolved specially rotated pelvises to get off with each other better.  (We're as closely related to bonobo chimpanzees as to common chimpanzees, if not slightly more so.) 

Is the implication that the human female pelvis is similarly "rotated for advantage"?  And does this have an impact on male/female relations?  You can only take cross-species comparisons so far; genetically related we may be, but bonobos and chimpanzees are not hominids, and several species of protohumans have come and gone (leading up to us) since the apes diverged from our common ancestral stock.

Cerberus (Oo ee oo ah-ah, ting-tang walla walla bing-bang...) 

Posted by: noemie

Posted on: Apr 9th, 2005, 7:09pm

on Apr 9th, 2005, 5:26pm, Cerberus wrote:

Is the implication that the human female pelvis is similarly "rotated for advantage"?

No, I just mentioned it because it's a nifty feature of bonobos.  And one I am somewhat envious of.

Quote:And does this have an impact on male/female relations? 

Between bonobos:  yes, enormously.  The female-female coalitions enable the females to determine which males they will mate with.  Bonobo males are kind and submissive because all the other ones have been bred out of the gene pool...

Between humans: It's possible that something similar happens sometimes, although my guess would be that it more often takes the "passionate friendship" form than a form involving sex (though it can do that too).  You have very close bonds with someone, and you look after each other in various matters of life, including relationships.  A second consequence is that it feeds straight guys' fantasies.

Quote:You can only take cross-species comparisons so far; genetically related we may be, but bonobos and chimpanzees are not hominids, and several species of protohumans have come and gone (leading up to us) since the apes diverged from our common ancestral stock. 

You're reminding me that bonobos and chimpanzees are not hominids, as if I had said they were.  Why?

I also note that you're bringing protohumans in, although they're irrelevant to a conversation about behavioral research because we do not have this kind of behavioral data on them, so for cross-species comparisons we have to rely on existing species of primates.

I should stop mentioning findings from my professional field because I always get a fucking lecture on it from someone who wants to do the culturally valued thing of saying how little you can get from evolutionary psychology.  I was making a quick point and wanted to say that one of the species most closely related to us shares a tendency for females to be highly flexible and males to be less so in their sexual orientation.

I think evpsych is the only professional field where being someone who does it professionally seems to disqualify you from being knowledgeable in many others' eyes.

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Apr 9th, 2005, 8:24pm

Noemie.

You have no need for defensiveness.  No slight was intended, or even implied, or would have been perceived by the vast majority of readers ... had you not made an issue of it.

You presume that I adopt the "culturally valued" perspective.  You are in error.  I have an intense interest in human evolutionary development, and some anthropological background.  I am perfectly cognizant of the value of primate studies as they relate to our understanding of genus Homo.  As something of a student of the field, I continue to maintain that as valuable as such observations are, the temptation to draw direct comparisons is great, and even professionals in the field are not immune.  To argue that the lack of early hominid data makes such primate data more relevant is disingenuous; just because data is lacking does not mean that the existing primate data set is as applicable as, say, an erectus data set, if such existed.  Our species arguably, I think, did not learn its behaviors, or inherit its genetic sexual traits, from bonobos.  Hence my observation  that cross-species comparisons have limits to their application.

Quote:I should stop mentioning findings from my professional field because I always get a fucking lecture on it from someone who wants to do the culturally valued thing of saying how little you can get from evolutionary psychology. 

My comment was not a "fucking lecture".  Your observations were germaine, welcome and interesting.  Nor, indeed, is your field the only one for which the lay public does not fully appreciate the subtleties of the discipline; I have experienced it myself many times.  Yet, you are speaking to a lay public here, and even though your professional insights materially inform this conversation, if you insist upon taking offense because you feel in some way disrespected that your comments are not immediately accepted as whole cloth, perhaps you should consider reserving them for your professional colleagues.

Here again, we find this thread soured by a defensive post that makes a sideways slap at another member (in this case, the "somebody" is myself).  I have made my position clear on this matter, and further such posts will go to post heaven without comment, regardless of the poster.

Cerberus

Posted by: chUCKIT

Posted on: Apr 9th, 2005, 10:41pm

Noemie Quote:theory that women are more flexible in their sexual orientation than men is supported by large-scale studies ...

cross-species evidence with bonobos - female bonobos have sex with each other to form female-female alliances to the extent that they've evolved specially rotated pelvises to get off with each other better.

Cerberus Quote:Yet, you are speaking to a lay public here 

Hey now I must be one of those enquiring minds cause I just NEED to know the specifics on HOW physically rotated are their pelvises?

The imagination of this admitted lay public human is not enough!

err um and if I may comment I find it interesting that I've only seen (so far) folks upset about OTHER topics (weight/sex) no one gets ruffled when discussing MEDS, DXs, NOS?

 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Apr 9th, 2005, 10:52pm

on Apr 9th, 2005, 10:41pm, chUCKIT wrote:err um and if I may comment I find it interesting that I've only seen (so far) folks upset about OTHER topics (weight/sex) no one gets ruffled when discussing MEDS, DXs, NOS? 

lol - chUCKIT, hon, you just don't circulate around the right boards...

Cerberus

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Apr 11th, 2005, 10:29am

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, men and women...and womyn...and wymyn...(and myn?)...and, uh, anything else not in that list...

Can we de-grumpify and talk about something vaguely productive again yet?  Chimps are neat.  I like chimps.  I like talking about them.  They're even appropriate to talk about.  However, just like everything else anyone has ever said in this thread, people got argumentative and defensive when they got brought up.  What the crap, people?  Should I just give up on the GLBT board as a whole for now, or can we be constructive for a change?  I'm perfectly happy going off to the anticonvulsant board and talking about my Trileptal, but it would be nice to spend some time hanging around in here, too.  Grumble, grumble. 

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Apr 11th, 2005, 10:44am

Alrighty, Nal --

I had an interesting conversation with a guy yesterday evening, who is a sociology/psychology double major about to graduate, who says that Bi doesn't really exist among guys (I'm not sure if he intended to extrapolate to include women).  He said that once you acknowledge your "core preference" you automatically identify either straight or gay.  He said "Bi" is either a transitional state for those just coming out, or a cover for use in different social circumstances.  For instance, guys do not seem to have a problem identifying themselves as Bi to other guys, but tend not to identify themselves as Bi to females.

Commentary, anyone?

Cerberus (who is still trying to reconcile a preference for vaginal over anal intercourse with a strong attraction to males) 

Posted by: nalgas

Posted on: Apr 11th, 2005, 11:07am

on Apr 11th, 2005, 10:44am, Cerberus wrote:Alrighty, Nal --

I had an interesting conversation with a guy yesterday evening, who is a sociology/psychology double major about to graduate, who says that Bi doesn't really exist among guys (I'm not sure if he intended to extrapolate to include women).  He said that once you acknowledge your "core preference" you automatically identify either straight or gay.  He said "Bi" is either a transitional state for those just coming out, or a cover for use in different social circumstances.  For instance, guys do not seem to have a problem identifying themselves as Bi to other guys, but tend not to identify themselves as Bi to females.

Commentary, anyone?

Cerberus (who is still trying to reconcile a preference for vaginal over anal intercourse with a strong attraction to males)

Hip hip huzzah!  Cerberus to the rescue.  I don't really know what to say to people like that.  Doesn't exist?  My only real counter to that is, "Hi!  Here I am!"  If it were a transitional state for me coming out, I would suspect that I would have more feelings towards guys than I do, and probably a lot fewer towards girls than I do.  At the very least, I would assume the balance of them would be changing, and I haven't noticed that either.  A cover in social situations?  I'm pretty minimally social, and in the situations I do get into, it wouldn't particularly help or hurt me any more or less overall than any other label I could put on myself.  The last sentence you said is particularly interesting to me, because I'm the exact opposite.  It tends to come up more with girls than guys, for me (feel free to apply "come up" to either the topic of conversation or an anatomical reference...or both).  However, that may or may not be encouraged by running into so many more bi females than males.  That might be why the subject comes up in conversation more often with them.

I think I would have more to say, but I have to go take a shower and catch the bus to my appointment with my psychiatrist.  Talk amongst yourselves. 

Posted by: Fiona

Posted on: Apr 11th, 2005, 11:59am

on Apr 11th, 2005, 10:44am, Cerberus wrote:a cover for use in different social circumstances.  For instance, guys do not seem to have a problem identifying themselves as Bi to other guys, but tend not to identify themselves as Bi to females. 

I can see it as a social issue -- the question, though, is whether the men are aware of it being a social issue. Do men deliberately change the word they use depending on the circumstances?

And what about all the guys (hi Nalgas!) who do genuinely self-identify as bi?

Quote:(who is still trying to reconcile a preference for vaginal over anal intercourse with a strong attraction to males) 

That's an interesting kind of 'bi,' if you think about it. Your preferences for people to date and such may be exclusively male, but your physical preferences are split between male and female. (sorry to dissect your sex life)

Otherwise, what's to resolve, they're both unpleasant. 

Fiona 

Posted by: realitytest

Posted on: Apr 12th, 2005, 4:29am

Chuck Quote:Hey now I must be one of those enquiring minds cause I just NEED to know the specifics on HOW physically rotated are their pelvises?

I'm obviously transitioning over into the axis of A-sexual*  because when I read about these little critters, all I can think is "Ow" -- my lower back. Can you imagine the stress that would place on your lumbar spine?  They must be able to get around on all fours too, or it wouldn't be tolerable. 

And yet time was when I would have just thought "WOW!" 

Hypothesis which just popped into my mind  (which I'm sure noemie will think is this just "doh" in evpsych)..

Any chance that women in sex - at least bonobo women - "connect"  more  because they face each other more during sex than a male-female couple?  I don't think bonobos had been introduced to missionaries or their postures yet. 

Nal, 

It is SO  irritating when people tell you, you don't feel what you feel,  isn't it? 

I don't know a whole lot of about bisexuality, but I do  know a good bit about bilingualism and I think there might be some commonality. There is often a dominant language, but more often than not it's a matter of what you're doing when you use it,  what you use the language for,  and a host of other contextual  issues.

In other words there are different kinds of fluency and one language may be easier to communicate with for certain activities (or even emotions) while another language might suit one more in another. 

 

I still do quite well in four languages - well,  3 1/2, but I used to be truly trilingual and I remember slipping from one language to the other at a party with no trouble. Now I would mess up vocabulary and even accents.  *Sigh* Did you ever hear  "every language is a new soul" . My problem may be that I am losing souls now.

The language I studied the very most - my damned major - is totally gone. I never got to use it in the country, is why. The most  lost soul of all.. 

rt

*Re axis business: I see sexual preference as a point on a graph with an X and Y axis. and since this has gotten so complicated here, I am defiing sexual preference as  purely erotic, lascivious arousal which may or may not be combined with a serious emotional relationship. Which body type turns you on more,  all other things being equal.  Now don't go  telling me it's impossible to contemplate it as "just physical". OK, OK, by "physical"  I am including voice,  skin touch,  sweat smell,  the imagination of what it would feel like to be engaged in sex with that gender on  average - the whole sensual experience.  OK?? 

Now back to the graph...The X axis would range from exclusively homoerotic to exclusively heterosexual attraction (use a damned plethysmograph), and the Y axis would range from asexual to hypersexual - i.e., how much one cares about sexual activity anyhow

Posted by: Cerberus

Posted on: Apr 12th, 2005, 8:25am

Fiona -

I'm afraid I must beg to differ; for me, they're both only unpleasant afterward.  But then, I've never been in the position of having to think of England.

Realitytest:

re: bonobos:  Bonobos, like chimpanzees, are not normally (at least not predominantly) bipedal.

re: axis:  Ooh! Cerberus likes the axis!

re: lost language:  I suspect it isn't lost.  Once you've burned those patterns into your brain, they never completely go away.  If you were air-dropped into the country and had no alternative but to speak the language, I suspect you would pick it up again with considerable speed.  The real danger is when one language is subsumed by a second, closely-related one that would tend to use the same mental patterns.  For instance, I had four years of French, followed by one semester of Spanish that blew my French to smithereens because Spanish verbs were more accommodating than French ones.  So Spanish verbs + French nouns and syntax + English filling in the bits I can't quite remember = incomprehensibility.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of bisexuality...

Cerberus  (who really, really, really wants to learn Gaelic...)

Posted by: cornix_regina

Posted on: May 3rd, 2005, 7:43pm

I know I have sed some of this in my own thread on this board but I believe myself to be bisexual.  Let me try to explain.

When I was growing up most of my friends were female tht's still the same to this day but like any "normal" female when I hut puberty my interest in the opposite sex became apparent.

Now tht I'm 22 I am now realising tht I feel a sexual attraction towards women but here's where the bi bit comes in.  I haven't lost sexual interest towards men I have just gained a sexual interest in women.

I have only had one real boyfriend and I still love him so much and I did feel a sexual attraction towards him.  I have never had a sexual relationship with anyone so I can't really compare man to woman in tht sense.  I never had the opportunity with my boyfriend and have never felt ready to go with anyone else since (not tht I've found someone I want tho).

The sexual attraction I feel towards women is just the same as tht I feel towards men and I do not seem to have a preference.

I agree with some of the ppl here tht in my opinion of what it could be like (having had no experience) tht a women could satisfy us in ways tht a man could never even think of but there are some levels of satisfication tht we could only get from a man.

I think what i feel is more than a curiosity.  I do find myself fantasising about women as much as i do about men and for me at the moment tht's about as sexual as things get.

Opinions on what I have sed are more than welcome. 

Poison Girl (formally cornix regina)

Posted by: minxnoir

Posted on: May 22nd, 2005, 7:34pm

When i was coming of age back during the wonderful sixties, we assumed everyone was bi and we pretty much acted on that belief too.  it was understood that without social repression we would all know we were bi and act on it happily.  i would not state this with such certainty now, of course.  since then i have been somewhere or other along every spot on this well travelled continuum.  i have enjoyed my travels!  at one point i even lived as a separatist lesbian, when that seemed the thing i needed to do.  it did not last long, i confess.  i had two hetero marriages as well.  i was also a nun for a time.  for me it has been an evolving kind of self knowledge and not a blinding epiphany that came to me all at once and never changed.  and i retain one pure prejudice too.  i hate being with another bi woman for the pleasure of a viewing or participating hetero male who perceives our lovemaking as being all for his sexual gratification.  ::when egos collide::

  anyway, i am here chatting now because i am newly in love, and it is with Patti.  she is thirteen years younger then i am, and far less experienced and she is a true submissive, which is bringing out my kind of unknown up till now more Domme side.  kind of bringing it out big time.  and because it is our pleasure i care about, we shall probable play with a third partner sometimes, a man, but not for his viewing pleasure at all, but for my Beloved's fulfillment, and i shall be calling all the shots!  ::clears throat::  i am overwhelmed to find that at the age of fifty two things can still be a surprise and a delight!  i was thinking i had been there/done that with just about everything and i was also kind of giving up on the whole falling in love thing, so damn!  life just keeps on showing me i do not know all the stuff i am so certain i know!

  right now she and i are in the very new and very intoxicatingly sweet swept away with love phase.  i am eager to see what it shall be like as it progresses through the kaleidoscope of changes to come, as we grow in our knowledge of each other.  she is bipolar too, and has a seizure disorder.  we have many things in common and much that is different.  who knows what will happen with us?  i wrote about it for this reason really.  because who could have predicted it?  no one who knew either of us would have ever seen it coming, including us!

  embrace the mystery!  love the questions!  be wary of answers with too much certainty!  find out through living... that, anyway, is what minxie has to say today...   

Posted by: Libby

Posted on: May 22nd, 2005, 11:05pm

That's lovely, minxie!  Rock on with yo' bad self!  Falling in love at 53....gives more hope to this nearly 50 woman.

[TheMom]

Part 4 of the Digest

____________________________

I am bisexual. I am divorced partly because I went batshit crazy and accused my ex of cheating with my sister which he ofcouse wasn't. Partly I am divorced because he wanted a momogamous relationship. My dream relationship is a threeway one. Obviously I couldn't handle a relationship with one person at a time, so it is a dream only. I have kinda used women for sex while my marriage was always the primary relationship. I wasn't my ideal but it would do in a pinch. Now I am seeing my ex again exclusivly. But I still hate to commit to monogamy especially for the sake of being respectable. My husband has this idea of me being the kind of wife who cooks dinners for business people and hosts little dinner parties. The kids would be beter behaved ofcourse (most likely both have aspergers1). We would have a respectable home and he would have the status and standing of a repected member of the community. Ofcourse I would have to play my role and be super mom. For the sake of our children ofcourse we shouldn't have an open or even simi open relationship. For his sake I can't be running around on him.

I love this man dearly, truely I do but I am not sure I believe in monogamy. I certainly think I should be able to be a parent when in a relationship with a man or woman. For the sake of the kids just doesn't wash, its for the sake of his social standing. His ego. Even if its out of love and his insecurities. I'm not sure I believe we could ever acheive the lifestyle he wants anyway. Bisexuals are sometimes grown up with kids, a safe primary relationship and still confused and torn btween what they need and want. I do fall in love with women, One woman one man, no problem. Oh but to make me choose forever and ever so not fair! Not fair to him not to have the commitment and lifestyle he wants. I think many bisexuals are sitting where I am wondering if we're suited to monogamy at all. Asking me not to have sex with women ever is almost like asking me to never have sex again. Its tough and its unfair to be judged so harshly by others. I'd rather have an open marriage. Maybe I should stay single and poor and never allow any type of commitment so I am free to expess my love where it falls for whatever time and duration with no set love by number rules?

This is what being bisexual is for me. Fear I won't be faithful, can't be faithful. Putting people I love ahead of myself my desires always. We aren't all asking others to be faithful, they are however always demanding we make choices. I just wanted to post this somewhere and I hope it moves somebody or has a place here.

[Guest Bevy]

The postings for this Bisexuality topic are several weeks old so maybe I

[zoezoe]

If I were you I would try placing an ad in a local gay paper.  I'm sure there are men looking for discreet, casual, fun.  The other option is to go to a gay bar.  I don't know what the "pick up" scene is like, but I"ll bet you could meet a man who would just have sex with you.  If you are willing to go one of these routes, I think your curiousity and libido will be quickly satisfied.  Definitely, be careful and safe.  Use a condom no matter what! 

[Teddy]

To TheMom:

If you didn't read all my posts then you probably missed that my dream relationship is a threeway one, too. Totally socially unacceptable but that is ultimately what I would love to have. I wouldn't mind even having a fourway relationship. Me, my fiance and a bisexual male and female living as one big happy polyamorous, ambisextrous family!

Peace out,

Teddy

[Cerberus]

Bevy -

I had to edit your post above because we wish to avoid the Board turning into a personals site; I pull anything that appears to fit that description lest it give others the wrong idea.  Don't be embarrassed for having posted it, though.  I think many of us understand exactly what you're talking about **raises hand** and I would encourage you to become a registered site member and participate in our discussions as you investigate this part of your psyche and your life.  Also, I would echo Zoezoe; there are many places out there on the net where you can post the kind of inquiry you made, for free, in a place where like-minded folks in your area can come across it.  You might try Gay.com to start with, but there are others.  We hope to hear from you again.

Cerberus

[Guest Guest_michah669_*]

[what a relief to see others are like me (bisexual, crazy)...

My lesbian friends accuse me of fence sitting because I refuse to choose. Not because I think I am more egalitarian (I too flinch from such statements as "my love has no boundaries", etc) but because it just seems to be the way I'm wired.  If I'm attracted to someone, their gender has never been a restriction - I have been blessed to enjoy both. Oddly, I seem dispropportionately attracted to the transgendered -! For some reason I find the combination irresistably alluring/mysterious...  I thought some of this would clear up with medication (I am bipolar/borderline), but it's still there.  I can't imagine any other way of being...

My motto is pretty common - if it's between consenting adults, the sky is the limit!

[TheMom]

tits and a dick, hmmm what could be more attractive to a bisexual person??? I have the same weakness, soft spot for the transgendered myself.

[caligatia]

tits and a dick, hmmm what could be more attractive to a bisexual person??? I have the same weakness, soft spot for the transgendered myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've dated a couple of pre-op transsexuals.  I enjoyed myself thoroughly. 

[TheMom]

I hung out with some crossdressers but never was intimate with them.

[caligatia]

I wish he was open to an open relationship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My husband and I have an open relationship, but he's the monogamous sort and won't date anyone else (even though i've tried to get him to).  He understands, however, that I'm NOT the monogamous type.  I currently have one other boyfriend, an online married girlfriend, and an online...  well, male interest.  I enjoy myself... 

[TheMom]

Currently he is my ex husband.  He lives with his mom and won't come back until I learn to clean house better.  He is asking me to be faithful while we rebuild our relationship.  He claims not wanting an open relationship in reguards to women has to do with us having children.  I think he is just insecure.  I love him so I am putting up with it.  But in reality I am wondering if I still want this relationship.  I think he has no right to say, be faithful and I'll live at my moms until you get you housekeeping up to par.  I'm unsure I can commit to monogamy. We use to have an uneasy truce about women but now he is firm on none and thinks he's worth it.  He seems to think he's better than me in so many ways because he's been more faithful and he has clean standards of living.  If he keeps it up he might just loose me entirely. I don't see the point in staying with him just for the money.  I don't see the point in having a relationship with someone who isn't really there when you need them.  And I don't see the point of monogamy anymore.  Its not that I am dieing to be out screwing everything that moves, its more like I want to be with someone who makes me feel loved.  I think I'm getting way tired of being with someone who believes that they are better than me.

[Cerberus]

Currently he is my ex husband.

[TheMom]

Thanks. I talked to him and he really seems to want to make this work.  He's still focused on work and getting a house.  He says its just the housekeeping.  I'm going to try to do it and see if things work out.  I still love him.  He kept saying he thought he was worth it.  Finally he got around to saying that he thought I was worth waiting for.  That's what I needed to hear to know he wasn't looking down his nose at me.

[SunshineOutside]

O.K.

[peeej]

my pdoc and i had this discussion yesterday.

imagine a slightly overweight indian man using the words 'i like dick' to try and figure out my orientation.

i was evasive.

i'm probably bi. but i mostly choose not to care about distinctions. i mostly deny i'm bi, to alleviate partner's intermittent fears over friendships i have with men. cause i once had an affair. with a man. i can't say i blame her. it just sucks ass.

i'm going on a mission to collect bi words for myself; bi-polar, bi-sexual... bi....

-cycle

-furcation

-tchiness!

wuhoo.

pj

[Fiona]

2. It was what I was taught and automatically just did (how many times do you hear a little girl get asked if she "has a boyfriend yet?" They dont ask her if she has a gf...at least ive never heard it...my family/society/school/friends/ all together pushed me towards the FACT that I would one day grow up and marry a guy and have kids etc and my brain just accepted that and proceeded to tell me thats what to work towards)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a huge piece of why it took me several relationships with men, an abusive marriage, and a big piece of distance between me and that town to figure out I'm lesbian. It really had just never occurred to me when I was younger that it might be the case -- I didn't know anyone who was and the cultural expectation was overwhelming towards marriage and such.

I'm glad I figured it out -- my partner is wonderful and our relationship is one of the best things in my life.

Fiona

[SunshineOutside]

lol "I like dick"? Hilarious!

'rhonda

[Libby]

so the Indian man likes dick?  I don't get it.

[peeej]

so the Indian man likes dick?

[Ashraf]

Admit haven't read all that long prose.  Women are beautiful, men not so much but I can definitely appreciate them.  Don't think you can elaborate much more, really.