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Criticism and society


nibblerd

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I am certainly light years more interesting than the rest of my sane, calm and mentally stable family. I sing in bands, make jewelry, paint, refinish furntiure and love to cook. I also try to do these things manic and make a huge mess that I have to clean up when stable again. Unless I am over medicated I am very creative on my meds. Though I will say I do not suffer for art, it is something I enjoy and it calms me down and helps me feel like the world is safe and stable. It also keeps me busy and out of trouble and is a good indicator of when I start to cycle up again.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception of your own interestingness might not necessarily be shared by others.

Or it could be. Why bother saying that? Is it just to be mean?

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I am certainly light years more interesting than the rest of my sane, calm and mentally stable family. I sing in bands, make jewelry, paint, refinish furntiure and love to cook. I also try to do these things manic and make a huge mess that I have to clean up when stable again. Unless I am over medicated I am very creative on my meds. Though I will say I do not suffer for art, it is something I enjoy and it calms me down and helps me feel like the world is safe and stable. It also keeps me busy and out of trouble and is a good indicator of when I start to cycle up again.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception of your own interestingness might not necessarily be shared by others.

Or it could be. Why bother saying that? Is it just to be mean?

No, not at all. Because when people are hypo/manic, it's pretty common for them to think they're endlessly fascinating, while the reality is that other people are finding them incredibly annoying. Realistic self-assessment can be an important part of coming to terms with one's identity, generally, and illness, specifically.

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I am certainly light years more interesting than the rest of my sane, calm and mentally stable family. I sing in bands, make jewelry, paint, refinish furntiure and love to cook. I also try to do these things manic and make a huge mess that I have to clean up when stable again. Unless I am over medicated I am very creative on my meds. Though I will say I do not suffer for art, it is something I enjoy and it calms me down and helps me feel like the world is safe and stable. It also keeps me busy and out of trouble and is a good indicator of when I start to cycle up again.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception of your own interestingness might not necessarily be shared by others.

Or it could be. Why bother saying that? Is it just to be mean?

No, not at all. Because when people are hypo/manic, it's pretty common for them to think they're endlessly fascinating, while the reality is that other people are finding them incredibly annoying. Realistic self-assessment can be an important part of coming to terms with one's identity, generally, and illness, specifically.

I don't think the word fascinating is equivalent to interesting. Interesting is the antonym of boring - and doing all of the things that this user describes does certainly not mark one as boring. Fascinating is so painfully subjective that it is really only useful to the person describing the event or information. One does not have to inspire awe and happiness in every soul in order to be fascinating or interesting. All it takes is one. If someone is stable and they find themselves endlessly fascinating, are you going to step all over that? It's a good thing to have SOME sort of positive self-image, but my extended interpretation of your post is that you do not think so.

I don't see how it matters what other people think of you as long as your behaviour is not affecting your financial status (and why this, even? there is nothing wrong with living in a hut in the woods.) or resulting in physical injury. There is no rubber stamp that tells us how we are supposed to act - you are referring to the incredible peer pressure of society (that you have been omgsuckedinto!) telling you how you are supposed to look and behave. If you break those rules, there might be consequences - people that find your behaviour off-putting will not interact with you anymore. Oh well, they don't like you for who you are. You probably didn't need them anyway. If you be yourself, you will attract more like-minded people to get into trouble with.

There's no need to reality check someone who has this state of mind. For one thing, you can be wrong. Shocking! it only hurts their self image and you could very well trigger depression, spiritual crisis etc. Who knows what could happen! Maybe you directly or indirectly (which one depends on whether you are in denial or not) cause the ruminating thoughts that lead to their prompt suicide. Another thing is that a truly euphoric person simply won't listen to you. Take Charlie Sheen for example, he's totally bi-winning!

Basically, it's not your place or anyone's place to tell someone that they are uninteresting, boring, lame, annoying. The person will figure it out on their own eventually, if there is anything to figure out at all. Otherwise they live a long and happy life, the end.

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Personally, what someone says about me doesn't affect me much at all. I might get pissed but I can handle myself, and push back. Better to handle myself here than on the streets. And I have taken it to the streets in a very hard way (if I may be allowed to call life threatening hard. And, what I took to the streets had to do with what happened on the street and in my feverishly raging head and not what was said here.)

But nibblerd, I THINK I agree with you 100%. You are the ultimate arbiter of yourself. You have come, or must come, to know yourself better than anyone on an internet message board can ever know you.

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nibblerd, I think you completely missed the point Sasha was making. Not that I think that singing, painting, making jewelry, cooking, or doing anything, really, necessarily makes one "interesting" by your definition. Interesting and fascinating are synonyms, regardless of how you think the English language is put together. They mean essentially the same thing, except that "fascinating" is stronger. Both words are very subjective - what one person finds interesting or fascinating, another person might find incredibly boring.

I'm not going to address all the touchy-feely bullshit in your post. That's not how the world works, and it's sure as hell not how CB works. And being told that you're uninteresting should not cause a crisis, unless you have some sort of personality disorder (or just a gigantic ego). At any rate, criticism is something that everyone will encounter repeatedly throughout their lives, and it's something everyone has to learn how to deal with properly.

But Sasha was specifically talking about grandiosity in hypo/manic episodes. I think you should be able to agree that people generally lose at least some of their grasp on reality during a mood episode.

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Uh, of course they can. This person, however, already stated that they cannot do the same things while manic, that they only create a mess to be cleaned up later, thus trying to bring them down to earth when not episodic is unnecessary.

You also fail to grasp the point of my post - it isn't anyone's place to tell someone that they aren't as interesting as they think they are. Why do you feel otherwise? Crisis or not, it is an asshole thing to do, especially when the person has made a clear distinction between manic behaviour and stable behaviour.

Do you understand how the world works? Would you prefer everyone be someone other than themselves? Little automaton droids doing whatever everyone else does and expects them to do? That sounds incredibly boring.

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Reading comprehension was never your strong point.

At any rate, criticism is something that everyone will encounter repeatedly throughout their lives, and it's something everyone has to learn how to deal with properly.

If being told that you're uninteresting on the Internet causes that much stress, you have bigger problems to worry about.

Another issue? Those few times I've heard anyone describe themselves as interesting, it's usually a red flag that they're going to annoy the piss out of me (if they haven't already). Why is that? Because "interesting" is a completely useless adjective when applied without qualification to people. It's too damn subjective. So when someone describes themselves as interesting, I usually take that to mean that they're full of themselves.

I'm not saying that they have to change. I'm saying that people dislike other people sometimes, and this is one reason why.

And yes, I am an asshole. And like the honey badger, I don't give a shit.

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Reading comprehension was never your strong point.

Right. The lithium and lamotrigine do wonders for it! But hey, good for you, exercising your right to be an asshole (which you clearly enjoy) and criticize others. I'm sure it inflates your ego nicely.

At any rate, criticism is something that everyone will encounter repeatedly throughout their lives, and it's something everyone has to learn how to deal with properly.

Right. The people doing the criticizing have nothing to learn.

If being told that you're uninteresting on the Internet causes that much stress, you have bigger problems to worry about.

I wasn't aware that the scope of my post was limited to the Internet! I'll keep that in mind for every other post.

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At any rate, criticism is something that everyone will encounter repeatedly throughout their lives, and it's something everyone has to learn how to deal with properly.

Right. The people doing the criticizing have nothing to learn.

Yes, they do. They learn what they do and don't like.

But criticism is not a learning experience for the critics. It's a learning experience for the criticized. If we don't learn how to act socially, professionally, and academically through criticism, we can't possibly be successful in those spheres.

If being told that you're uninteresting on the Internet causes that much stress, you have bigger problems to worry about.

I wasn't aware that the scope of my post was limited to the Internet! I'll keep that in mind for every other post.

If being told that you're uninteresting in real life causes that much stress, you have bigger problems to worry about, too.

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But criticism is not a learning experience for the critics. It's a learning experience for the criticized. If we don't learn how to act socially, professionally, and academically through criticism, we can't possibly be successful.

Hah. Critics don't need to learn? So it's okay to criticize someone in any way you feel, but there is a way we are supposed to act socially? That sounds conflicting.

Once again. If you don't like how I act socially, don't come near me. It's not like you deserve my glorious presence anyway. Social criticism means you want them to change. It means you are looking to control them.

Professional and academic criticism are different beasts, as they are "structured" worlds. You obviously need to play the game in order to win, and you must play it by the rules.. but criticizing behaviour and personality is just unnecessary. Like I said, Mr "reading comprehension was never your strong point", they will figure it out on their own eventually, if there is anything to figure out at all. Whether this happens because they have no more friends or they lose their job or fail school, it will cause them to question their perception. So why the fuck do you feel empowered to do it for them?

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Seeing as the professional and academic worlds are social worlds at their core, I don't really understand how you're drawing this dichotomy. Society is structured. A group of friends is a structure just as much as a team of salesmen or researchers. It's a game, and it has rules. Criticizing behavior and personality are perfectly necessary components of all three games. In fact, there are scores of people who make their livings criticizing people's behavior (teachers, anyone involved in law enforcement) and personalities (mental health professionals). One of a parent's biggest jobs is disciplining their children, a form of behavioral criticism. Any rational person will tell you that all of these things are necessary to have a functional society.

And idunno, I would personally rather have someone tell me that I'm being an egotistical ass, than simply reject me wholesale without explanation. Even if they do reject me, I'd like to know why so I can do something about it. It's kinda hard to figure out otherwise.

Social criticism means you want them to change. It means you are looking to control them.

If person A doesn't value his relationship with person B, he is free to completely ignore person B's critisism, or even get angry about it. But if he does, he would do well to listen. When person B decides to offer critisism instead of simply cut person A off, that means he values their relationship enough to point out something that has caused or will cause problems. This is not "control", it's part of the bartering system that holds society together. If everyone simply cut people they didn't like off, there would BE no society.

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I am certainly light years more interesting than the rest of my sane, calm and mentally stable family. I sing in bands, make jewelry, paint, refinish furntiure and love to cook. I also try to do these things manic and make a huge mess that I have to clean up when stable again. Unless I am over medicated I am very creative on my meds. Though I will say I do not suffer for art, it is something I enjoy and it calms me down and helps me feel like the world is safe and stable. It also keeps me busy and out of trouble and is a good indicator of when I start to cycle up again.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception of your own interestingness might not necessarily be shared by others.

Or it could be. Why bother saying that? Is it just to be mean?

No, not at all. Because when people are hypo/manic, it's pretty common for them to think they're endlessly fascinating, while the reality is that other people are finding them incredibly annoying. Realistic self-assessment can be an important part of coming to terms with one's identity, generally, and illness, specifically.

I don't think the word fascinating is equivalent to interesting. Interesting is the antonym of boring - and doing all of the things that this user describes does certainly not mark one as boring. Fascinating is so painfully subjective that it is really only useful to the person describing the event or information. One does not have to inspire awe and happiness in every soul in order to be fascinating or interesting. All it takes is one. If someone is stable and they find themselves endlessly fascinating, are you going to step all over that? It's a good thing to have SOME sort of positive self-image, but my extended interpretation of your post is that you do not think so.

I don't see how it matters what other people think of you as long as your behaviour is not affecting your financial status (and why this, even? there is nothing wrong with living in a hut in the woods.) or resulting in physical injury. There is no rubber stamp that tells us how we are supposed to act - you are referring to the incredible peer pressure of society (that you have been omgsuckedinto!) telling you how you are supposed to look and behave. If you break those rules, there might be consequences - people that find your behaviour off-putting will not interact with you anymore. Oh well, they don't like you for who you are. You probably didn't need them anyway. If you be yourself, you will attract more like-minded people to get into trouble with.

There's no need to reality check someone who has this state of mind. For one thing, you can be wrong. Shocking! it only hurts their self image and you could very well trigger depression, spiritual crisis etc. Who knows what could happen! Maybe you directly or indirectly (which one depends on whether you are in denial or not) cause the ruminating thoughts that lead to their prompt suicide. Another thing is that a truly euphoric person simply won't listen to you. Take Charlie Sheen for example, he's totally bi-winning!

Basically, it's not your place or anyone's place to tell someone that they are uninteresting, boring, lame, annoying. The person will figure it out on their own eventually, if there is anything to figure out at all. Otherwise they live a long and happy life, the end.

Nibblerd, grandiosity is a well established symptom of hypo/mania. It can be destructive personally, professionally, academically, or financially.

I didn't tell anyone he or she was uninteresting, boring, lame, or annoying. I said he or she might not be as interesting as he or she thought at the moment. At least know what exactly it is you're complaining about.

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But criticism is not a learning experience for the critics. It's a learning experience for the criticized. If we don't learn how to act socially, professionally, and academically through criticism, we can't possibly be successful.

Hah. Critics don't need to learn? So it's okay to criticize someone in any way you feel, but there is a way we are supposed to act socially? That sounds conflicting.

Once again. If you don't like how I act socially, don't come near me. It's not like you deserve my glorious presence anyway. Social criticism means you want them to change. It means you are looking to control them.

Professional and academic criticism are different beasts, as they are "structured" worlds. You obviously need to play the game in order to win, and you must play it by the rules.. but criticizing behaviour and personality is just unnecessary. Like I said, Mr "reading comprehension was never your strong point", they will figure it out on their own eventually, if there is anything to figure out at all. Whether this happens because they have no more friends or they lose their job or fail school, it will cause them to question their perception. So why the fuck do you feel empowered to do it for them?

No, criticism isn't an attemot to control anything or anyone. It's simply a statement ofnopinion, to do with as one wishes.

It is absolutely impossible to separate the academic or professional from the social. Maybe you'll go back to school one day, and learn that for yourself.

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nibblerd, I think you completely missed the point Sasha was making. Not that I think that singing, painting, making jewelry, cooking, or doing anything, really, necessarily makes one "interesting" by your definition. Interesting and fascinating are synonyms, regardless of how you think the English language is put together. They mean essentially the same thing, except that "fascinating" is stronger. Both words are very subjective - what one person finds interesting or fascinating, another person might find incredibly boring.

I'm not going to address all the touchy-feely bullshit in your post. That's not how the world works, and it's sure as hell not how CB works. And being told that you're uninteresting should not cause a crisis, unless you have some sort of personality disorder (or just a gigantic ego). At any rate, criticism is something that everyone will encounter repeatedly throughout their lives, and it's something everyone has to learn how to deal with properly.

But Sasha was specifically talking about grandiosity in hypo/manic episodes. I think you should be able to agree that people generally lose at least some of their grasp on reality during a mood episode.

I apologize in advance for beating a dead horse on this one. But the etymology of the words "interesting" and "fascinating" does not make "fascinating" stronger. reference is dictionary.com.

db

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I apologize in advance for beating a dead horse on this one. But the etymology of the words "interesting" and "fascinating" does not make "fascinating" stronger. reference is dictionary.com.

Etymology doesn't tell one much about connotation. "Fascinating" is used in actual speech/writing for something that's a notch above "interesting".

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It is interesting (no, make that fascinatingly interesting) to me that some degree of self-awareness

(or, self-criticism if you will) is necessary to be deemed sane --- provided that the

self-awareness is within or fits certain norms.

Yet, criticism and self-criticism are weapons used by Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist-totalitarian States to

impose conformity of thought.

This is not an argument in favor of mania or hypomania.

It is more in the nature of just sayin'

(Trying to elude irony, but it will hunt you down like a wolf.)

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It is interesting (no, make that fascinatingly interesting) to me that some degree of self-awareness

(or, self-criticism if you will) is necessary to be deemed sane --- provided that the

self-awareness is within or fits certain norms.

Yet, criticism and self-criticism are weapons used by Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist-totalitarian States to

impose conformity of thought.

This is not an argument in favor of mania or hypomania.

It is more in the nature of just sayin'

(Trying to elude irony, but it will hunt you down like a wolf.)

Will, I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. Equating CB with a totalitarian state is just absurd.

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Sasha,

I did not equate CB with a totalitarian state. It was more a statement about society at large.

I have steadfastly said that one should be able to defend oneself if posting on an internet

message board.

I do feel strongly, however, that critique of another's state of mind has to be made in the context of

knowing whether that person has underlying or fundamentally low self esteem or high self esteem.

Which is hard to know per their posts on an internet message board.

Yours,

Will

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criticism and self-criticism are weapons used by Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist totalitarian States to impose conformity of thought.

Criticism and self-criticism are also defining features of a functional democracy. Democracies would be completely unworkable if people were unable to criticize each other. That's the entire point of the First Amendment.

At any rate, if misuse of criticism was the worst thing a totalitarian state did, they wouldn't be such a big deal. But criticism was/is by far one of the least-relied-upon weapons in a totalitarian government's arsenal. They found kangaroo courts, prison camps, and firing squads much more useful in imposing and maintaining "conformity of thought." And they know that even that doesn't work very well.

I do feel strongly, however, that critique of another's state of mind has to be made in the context of knowing whether that person has (e.g., one example of knowing) whether that person has underlying or fundamentally low self esteem or high self esteem. Which is hard to truly know per posts on an internet message board.

Have you ever read "Fahrenheit 451?" You know, that book where a totalitarian state was formed by the people around this exact same mentality, that everyone should be protected from being offended or having their egos trodden upon?

At any rate, I feel this is often, if not usually, conterproductive for actual support. For instance, there's lots of people here who are unable to engage with others socially or even get the help they need because they're too afraid of hurting or offending people.

As far as CB goes, we do not usually walk on eggshells here. We don't restrain our opinions for the sake of anyone else's self esteem. If we did that, we'd be no different from any other support site.

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