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SUEzie

Time-line to stabilize after a crisis?

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This older (67) gal I've know for years is in the psych hospital right now. She had a melt-down late last week and was completley psychotic when she checked in.

I'm a bit concerned, because she doesn't appear to be getting any better. I've talked to her on the phone the past few days, and she is still very paranoid.

*She thinks her neighbor is starving her cats (her neighbor is feeding them while she's gone, and wouldn't do any any such thing, I know her.)

*She thinks that the people who come to visit her are talking about her behind her back - saying very derogatory things about her; many of these people she doesn't know that well at all (they are acquaintances from her women's group.) I really, truly doubt this is happening - and in at least 2 cases, am sure they're not.

*She thinks her elderly aunt is deliberately sabotaging her hospital stay, by telling her doctor lies about her (her aunt is in poor health, and has enough trouble taking care of herself. She'd never do this; she's done nothing but be helpful in this situation)

And the list goes on, re: Perceptions that are very inaccurate or paranoid on her part. And this was just today. But she's been like this all week.

Before this, she was fairly stable for years on end, with a crises or two in-between, of maybe 2 weeks. But she was always noticeably better in a few days, once she got on better meds. Not this time, and I don't know why.

*She absolutely insisted I'd sent her a Get Well card with a butterfly painted on it - I didn't (someone else maybe did) - and she just did not believe me. She said: "Oh Suzanne, I think you know you did !."

I changed the topic, and asked how the food was there.

I thought this gal was Bipolar (that's what she always told me), but maybe she is Schizo-affective; (she's more floridly psychotic than I'd been led to believe she ever got.) I'm not sure, really.

In any case, I was under the impression she'd have made more progress than this by now - she's been there a full week. If anything, she appears to be worse.

Is this normal? Should she not have made any progress after a week? Even a little? I know nothing about stabilzing in any kind of BP or Schizo-affective crisis, so I'm inquiring.

What should/can I do about it, if anything?

I'd appreciate any feed-back from people w/BP or people w/ Schizo-affective who have been hsopitalized (or anyone else who might know.)

ALSO: Does this sound more like Bipolar, or Schizo-affective behavior to you? Would someone w/Bipolar only act this way? Just wondering...

Thanks.

-suzie

Edited by suzie

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This older (67) gal I've know for years is in the psych hospital right now. She had a melt-down late last week and was completley psychotic when she checked in.

I'm a bit concerned, because she doesn't appear to be getting any better. I've talked to her on the phone the past few days, and she is still paranoid as all get out.

*She thinks her neighbor is starving her cats (her neighbor is feeding them while she's gone, and wouldn't do any any such thing, I know her.)

*She thinks that the people who come to visit her are talking about her behind her back - saying very derogatory things about her; many of these people she doesn't know that well at all (they are acquaintances from her women's group.) I really, truly doubt this is happening - and in at least 2 cases, am sure they're not.

*She thinks her elderly aunt is deliberately sabotaging her hospital stay, by telling her doctor lies about her (her aunt is in poor health, and has enougn trouble taking care of herself. She'd never do this; she's done nothing but be helpful in this situation)

And the list goes on, re: Perceptions that are very inaccurate or paranoid on her part. And this was just today. But she's been like this all week.

Before this, she was fairly stable for years on end, with a crises or two in-between, of maybe 2 weeks. But she was always noticeably better in a few days, once she got on better meds. Not this time, and I don't know why.

*She absolutely insisted I'd sent her a Get Well card with a butterfly painted on it - I didn't (someone else maybe did) - and she just did not believe me. She said: "Oh Suzanne, I think you know you did !."

I changed the topic, and asked how the food was there.

I thought this gal was Bipolar (that's what she always told me), but maybe she is Schizo-affective; (she's more floridly psychotic than I'd been led to believe she ever got.) I'm not sure, really.

In any case, I was under the impression she'd have made more progress than this by now - she's been there a full week. If anything, she appears to be worse.

Is this normal? Should she not have made any progress after a week? Even a little? I know nothing about stabilzing in any kind of BP or Schizo-affective crisis, so I'm inquiring.

What should/can I do about it, if anything?

I'd appreciate any feed-back from people w/BP or people w/ Schizo-affective who have been hsopitalized (or anyone else who might know.)

ALSO: Does this sound more like Bipolar, or Schizo-affective behavior to you? Would someone w/Bipolar only act this way? Just wondering...

Thanks.

-suzie

We can't diagnose anyone.

Not anyone on the site, certainly not anyone who is third-party.

It's just not feasible.

Second, you are pretty much doing exactly what pisses me right the fuck off about all the people who DON'T experience MI, and I would think you'd have just a little more understanding than you do now.

Your friend is sick.

When someone gets sick, there is no schedule, no script. Particularly when that sickness is in the head.

SHE may have a "norm" for herself, but if she does, only she would know what that is, not any of us.

You want a schedule and have an expectation that there is an easy answer. Which, frankly, is a load of crap.

There is no easy answer.

Some people spend a weekend in the hospital, some people spend a month.

Some people take one medication, some take seven [or more].

We are all unique individuals and YOU seem impatient and lacking some understanding.

What can you do about it?

Be patient.

Be supportive.

Don't make assumptions about what she may or may not have based on symptoms that you think she may be experiencing.

You aren't her doctor. Don't play like you are. It would be a disservice.

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When someone gets sick, there is no schedule, no script. Particularly when that sickness is in the head.

God, I am glad that there isn't a set schedule for my brain to get itself together after I fall apart, because that would really stress me out. One time when I was hospitalized for psychosis, I was feeling pretty well a few months after I got out of the hospital. This time, I'm still barely making it day by day, I've been out for almost five months and I wasn't psychotic when I went in. So yeah, no timeline will fit anyone, ever. And knowing the label the doctors may have put on your friend wouldn't change how you respond to her, right? It's just a word. Whether she has bipolar or schizoaffective disorder, you will still be compassionate and loving to her, which is what she needs.

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Suzie, a week is NOT a long time when I have been psychotic, or recovering from mania. It is not long at all. It does not really matter whether she is bipolar with psychosis of SZA. sort of irrelevant Just be her friend, and check on the cat, water her flowers, what ever you can do. Visit her if she is allowed visitors in the future.

She will probably be fragile when she goes home. She might need someone to get her groceries, or wash some linens, bring her a home cooked meal. Very practical things just like when someone has a serious phsical illness. She won't be able to drive for a bit and might need a ride to the doctor or pharmacy. Practical help would have helped us after my psychosis.

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What Luna said. Wise words.

If this is impacting your life/mental health this much, why cut all ties to her and her behavior?

Speaking from personal experience, I've had psychotic episodes lasting from several weeks (when first dx'd.) to more than s week. I've never been hospitalized during a psychotic episode.

My rule of thumb is that if you dont want someone telling you your right treatment path, then don't do it to others.

Edited by gizmo

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We can't diagnose anyone. I am not asking for a diagnosis - Here's the question: Has anyone here had had their "norm" change as far as length of time they spend in a crises w/BP, when they change meds? I do realize everyone is different. I'd still appreciate answers.

Not anyone on the site, certainly not anyone who is third-party.

It's just not feasible.

Second, you are pretty much doing exactly what pisses me right the fuck off about all the people who DON'T experience MI, and I would think you'd have just a little more understanding than you do now.

I don't have this kind of MI. If I did I wouldn't be asking.*YES, she is sick, and I am pretty frustrated with it. I'm human. I have family members who drive me batshit. I still care about them. I also said that I know nothing about time-lines for getting well in a crisis w/this particular illness. It's the title of the question. Why I asked the question. I am talking particularly about BP or Schizo-affective. Not MI generally.

Your friend is sick. When someone gets sick, there is no schedule, no script. Particularly when that sickness is in the head.

Some people spend a weekend in the hospital, some people spend a month.

Some people take one medication, some take seven [or more].

We are all unique individuals and YOU seem impatient and lacking some understanding.

What can you do about it?

Be patient.

Be supportive.

Don't make assumptions about what she may or may not have based on symptoms that you think she may be experiencing. If I was assuming anything - would I bother asking for an answer?

You aren't her doctor. Don't play like you are. It would be a disservice. Getting this information has been helpful. I know exactly what to do. Getting information about a medical crisis is what I come here for. I am glad I cleared some of this up. - suzie

Edited by suzie

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What Luna said. Wise words.

If this is impacting your life/mental health this much, why cut all ties to her and her behavior?Speaking from personal experience, I've had psychotic episodes lasting from several weeks (when first dx'd.) to more than s week. I've never been hospitalized during a psychotic episode.

My rule of thumb is that if you dont want someone telling you your right treatment path, then don't do it to others.

I was asking if anyone had similar experiences.

Also - for whomever finds it strange: YES some MI people DO in fact, piss me off.

Why that would seem strange, or irreverent I'm not sure. But they do. Not all of them, but this one for sure, some of the time.

I care about family members who ALSO piss me off. I still care what happens to them. And I care enough in this case, about her, to want to do something positive to help her.

I'll go look up the answer on the Internet - I can maybe find out there. I said in my post I had zero experience with this illness - which is why I was asking about it. Thanks for your input .

I can find the answer out. I'm pretty resourceful when I have to be. Her doctor I've been having a real hard time getting hold of. Thanks anyway. I appreciate what you did say.

- suzie

Edited by suzie

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Suzie, a week is NOT a long time when I have been psychotic, or recovering from mania. Thank you. That actually is what I wanted to know. Thank you.

It is not long at all. It does not really matter whether she is bipolar with psychosis of SZA. sort of irrelevant Yeah - was wondering, that's all. I don't care, either way. It won't change that I care what happens to her at all. I do care. Just be her friend, and check on the cat, water er flowers, what ever you can do. Visit her if she is allowed visitors in the future. Sounds good; what I've been doing. l'll keep it up.

She will probably be fragile when she goes home. She might need someone to get her groceries, or wash some linens, bring her a home cooked meal. Very practical things just like when someone has a serious phsical illness. She won't be able to drive for a bit and might need a ride to the doctor or pharmacy. Practical help would have helped us after my psychosis. I can help her with all of that. And I'd be happy to do it. I'll tell her that. I'll tell her aunt that, too; she is worried about it, I think.

Edited by suzie

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God, I am glad that there isn't a set schedule for my brain to get itself together after I fall apart, because that would really stress me out. One time when I was hospitalized for psychosis, I was feeling pretty well a few months after I got out of the hospital. This time, I'm still barely making it day by day, I've been out for almost five months and I wasn't psychotic when I went in. So yeah, no timeline will fit anyone, ever. And knowing the label the doctors may have put on your friend wouldn't change how you respond to her, right? It's just a word. Whether she has bipolar or schizoaffective disorder, you will still be compassionate and loving to her, which is what she needs.

Usually, an increased dose of Zyprexa has at least calmed her down after a few days. Not this time. I know you can't answer why - I am just wondering if the time-lines for people (you) showing improvement have ever changed over the course of their illness- when you're in a crisis; maybe I should have been more specific. So that's the real question. I think there might be general ideas about it (like using medication X allows many patients to show improvement after X number of days) on the Internet, maybe. I want a general idea. It's an intellectual pursuit, not a judgmental one.

I hope you continue to feel a bit better every day. - suzie

Edited by suzie

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One other point suzie, in general there is a lot of memory loss surrounding psychosis. She won't really remember how ill she has been. In fact, I hardly remember at all the first three weeks after my ER visit and then Zyprexa.

Both my mother and my sister traveled from out of state and spent one week each with us to help out as my husband was at work and I could not take care of myself nor drive. I don't remember it at all. just a blank Thank my sister? I am sure I never did because I don't remember the visit. maybe I should thank her 8 years later ha ha

I had a period of crazy hypomania this spring and now I have forgotten my symptoms and which month it was in. I could probably find it in my blog but it is erased from my memory. Sometimes I consider drawing up a mental illness power of attorney so my husband could hospitalize me if I refused. serious subject

Edited by bpladybug

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Usually, an increased dose of Zyprexa has at least calmed her down after a few days. Not this time. I know you can't answer why - I am just wondering if the time-lines for people (you) showing improvement have ever changed for in the course of their illness- when you're in a crisis; maybe I should have been more specific. So that's the real question. I think there might be general deas about it (like using medication allows many patients to show improvement after X number of days) on the Internet, maybe. I want a general idea. It's an intellectual pursuit, not a judgmental one.

Suzie, there are no answers to these questions. Mentall illness and treatment is so variable. And you must have noticed from reading on CB forum that people have remarkably different reactions to treatment.

If it was my friend or family member, and she was not improved in three weeks (my number - no reason) then I would consider if we, you and the Aunt and whomever, could talk with the doctor. The challenge being that she, the patient, would need to sign a release for each person to allow the discussion and the doctor would need to be willing.

It is problamatic if a person is older, lives alone, and still becomes ill from psychosis. That is obviously much less than ideal. They could be psychotic and break a hip or have a stroke, or another physical health issue. God.....not good. No one around to inquire about medication or seeing their doctor. After she is discharged and has some good days/weeks I would talk with her about it. Hopefully she won't be totally defensive.

Edited by bpladybug

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One other point suzie, in general there is a lot of memory loss surrounding psychosis. She won't really remember how ill she has been. In fact, I hardly remember at all the first three weeks after my ER visit and then Zyprexa. See I never, ever knew this. This explains a lot about what happened two Summers ago, with her. Thanks fot that information. After she got well, it was like it never happened. I didn't bring it up - because I thought she was trying to forget it - and thought it would be mean. But she probably just didn't remember much of when she was sick.

Both my mother and my sister traveled from out of state and spent one week each with us to help out as my husband was at work and I could not take care of myself nor drive. I don't remember it at all. just a blank Thank my sister? I am sure I never did because I don't remember the visit. maybe I should thank her 8 years later ha ha This does really help explain a lot about her. Am glad you brought that up.

I had a period of crazy hypomania this spring and now I have forgotten my symptoms and which month it was in. I could probably find it in my blog but it is erased from my memory. Sometimes I consider drawing up a mental illness power of attorney so my husband could hospitalize me if I refused. serious subject This is very helpful to know. I had no idea this happens at all to some people w/mania. Thanks much. And glad you're feeling better, BP

Edited by suzie

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Usually, an increased dose of Zyprexa has at least calmed her down after a few days. Not this time. I know you can't answer why - I am just wondering if the time-lines for people (you) showing improvement have ever changed for in the course of their illness; maybe I should have been more specific. So that's the real question. I think there might be general deas about it (like using medication allows many patients to show improvement after X number of days) on the Internet, maybe.

they say zyprexa can work in 24-48 hours. But my reaction to my dose wore off after a year. I was on 20mg zyprexa when I saw a life sized cartoon character run across my backyard. Haldol calmed me down right away once, but not so much the next time. One thing about mental conditions is different for each person, and for each mood episode.

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Usually, an increased dose of Zyprexa has at least calmed her down after a few days. Not this time. I know you can't answer why - I am just wondering if the time-lines for people (you) showing improvement have ever changed for in the course of their illness- when you're in a crisis; maybe I should have been more specific. So that's the real question. I think there might be general deas about it (like using medication allows many patients to show improvement after X number of days) on the Internet, maybe. I want a general idea. It's an intellectual pursuit, not a judgmental one.

Suzie, there are no answers to these questions. Mentall illness and treatment is so variable. And you must have noticed from reading on CB forum that people have remarkably different reactions to treatment.

Yeah. The situation is fishy for another reason. And I know this is going to make me sound waaay paranoid - BUT I am totally in touch with reality. I hesitate to even say this.

But - this hospital is in a "financial crisis".

And so - I was starting to think. Hmm. The longer people are "sick" there, then the longer this hospital can charge Medicare. Obviously, I don't have a lot of faith in some hospitals.

And I know that's way, way paranoid. Then again - a teensy but of paranoia doesn't really hurt, in some situations, IMO.

Hell - even if it's true, what could I do about it? Nothing. It's crazy to contemplate. Actually, though, I wish she was not at this place, There are other places in town that are better, IMO. She is probably just really, really sick. - suzie

Edited by suzie

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Usually, an increased dose of Zyprexa has at least calmed her down after a few days. Not this time. I know you can't answer why - I am just wondering if the time-lines for people (you) showing improvement have ever changed for in the course of their illness; maybe I should have been more specific. So that's the real question. I think there might be general deas about it (like using medication allows many patients to show improvement after X number of days) on the Internet, maybe.

they say zyprexa can work in 24-48 hours. But my reaction to my dose wore off after a year. I was on 20mg zyprexa when I saw a life sized cartoon character run across my backyard. Haldol calmed me down right away once, but not so much the next time. One thing about mental conditions is different for each person, and for each mood episode.Thanks for this information. I appreciate it. Maybe her meds just pooped out. She's been on Zyprexa like, forever. What you experienced (the cartoon guy) sounds scarier than _hit. Sorry it happens.

Edited by suzie

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I'm basically just going to repeat what others have said: it is virtually impossible to predict how long it will take your friend to recover. Some people take days, some people take months. There are so many variables. I've known three people who have gone into psych treatment after psychotic breakdowns and it has taken them each a different amount of time. And none of them really remember what they were like when they were at their lowest and most scared points.

I would really recommend that you look up some support forums for people who have loved ones with MI--I say this only because I know that caring about someone who is in that state comes with its own exhausting set of feelings that are easy to misinterpret and misdirect, which can lead to damaging your friendship and hurting both yourself and the other person more. I think you might benefit a lot from talking to other people who have been in your situation. As someone who is both mentally ill and has been basically surrounded her whole life by other mentally ill people, I can say that the two perspectives are very different.

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From BPLadybug: "It is problamatic if a person is older, lives alone, and still becomes ill from psychosis. That is obviously much less than ideal. They could be psychotic and break a hip or have a stroke, or another physical health issue. God.....not good. No one around to inquire about medication or seeing their doctor. After she is discharged and has some good days/weeks I would talk with her about it. Hopefully she won't be totally defensive."

I am actually pretty concerned about this. Because she's older, and lives alone in this big old house (which seems to need constant maintenence, btw.)

Several of her friends (me included) are trying to decide how to broach the topic with her re: What we should do for her, if this happens again. Because she can be getting worse, and even people who see her once a week she can sometimes hide it from, successfully.

She's paying off mucho bills from the last time this happened. And am sure she feels regretful. Doesn't mean it won't happen again. Ditto for flying off to a different city for an event that was not occurring - but that she was convinced was happening (what she tried to do this time. Nobody knew she was doing this, until she had almost boarded the plane. Even then, it was pure luck somebody did find out, and stopped her.)

Also, she sometimes fibs about how well she's feeling. The day she was hospitalized, (right before) she told me she was "feeling fine." Either that or she was so sick, she had no idea she was sick (like I said I am unfamilar w/BP.)

She has no legal guardian. Her relatives are all dead, save one elderly (82) aunt, who has a host of her own health issues. Hmmm. When we ask her, she always says "I'm fine." She does not want to sell her house.

IMO, a nice condo would probably work better, but it's her decision. Not sure what we're going to say to her.

One gal friend of hers is a lawyer - she's already said (to us) she has to decide to assign a guardian for herself. Or not.

Nobody can put her in a hospital unless she's a "clear danger to herself or others." Those are debatable, loaded words. And I have no idea what they mean, really.

She did agree to go this time. Not happy about it, almost didn't. But on some level realized she needed to go. Hope she always does. Hope someone is there to help. I don't see how this is possible when she lives alone.

-suzie

Edited by suzie

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I'm basically just going to repeat what others have said: it is virtually impossible to predict how long it will take your friend to recover. Some people take days, some people take months. There are so many variables.

Yes, I guess there are. I know everyone is different. I'm probably grasping at straws.

But just In your experience - when you've had a psychotic break - if you've had more than one - has the amount of time for recovery varied? I heard the term "norm" tossed around (re: an individual "norm" for a person re: recovery time.) Is there such a thing then? Or not? It seems- of course - that various people's "norms" for recovery might vary - but I mean on an individual level - how about yours? Does it vary?

Are there times when you've been hospitalized for 2 weeks, but the next time 2 months, instead, for instance? What made for the time difference - in your specific case?

If you don't have a couple pychotic breaks for which you've been hospitalized, then thanks for trying to be helpful, anyway.

And none of them really remember what they were like when they were at their lowest and most scared points.

I would really recommend that you look up some support forums for people who have loved ones with MI--I say this only because I know that caring about someone who is in that state comes with its own exhausting set of feelings that are easy to misinterpret and misdirect, which can lead to damaging your friendship and hurting both yourself and the other person more. Yes, it can. I'm having trouble reaching her doctor. So I can't get much info re: What's actually going on with her case, this time. Last time, it was much less of a problem. But last time, it was a different hospital, and a different doctor.

I think you might benefit a lot from talking to other people who have been in your situation. It might be very helpful. Any specific (national) groups you'd recommend?

As someone who is both mentally ill and has been basically surrounded her whole life by other mentally ill people, I can say that the two perspectives are very different. /quote] I know some people seem to believe this with all their heart. I hear people - both MI and non-MI people say this, from time to time. But - can you expound?

It's probably a whole other topic, but - for instance: I'm mentally ill. I'm just not BP. My "credentials" : I've been in 6 hospitals. Total time in MI hospitals - probably 6 months. 5 diagnoses, many various medications tried and tossed. Total MI history: Over 35 years. I have more than a couple relatives w/mental illness - some very severe. I do have familiarity w/ mental illness; just not BP.

Anyway - I feel sometimes like I can see a perspective (depending on the circumstances) of someone who's "well" and someone who's MI - my hosptalizations made a life-long impact on me. Right now I happen to be "well" - as well as I get, that is. But I don't have much experience w/BP.

I really, honestly think maybe - just maybe - somebody's capacity for identification (imagining what someone might feel like) has to do more w/their personality than any experiences. I say this because I see plenty of non-MI people who really try to be helpful to MI people - really try to imagine what it's like to be in their shoes (regardless of whether or not they've "been there") - and I see quite a few MI people who simply don't care about anyone but themselves (that could actually be due to their illness.) I also see the vice-versa of that. Non-MI people can lack empathy re: MI - but not all of them. And some MI people seem to have, IMO, a very difficult time "reading" some other people, or empathizing with them, regardless of whether or not they've "been there." OTOH, some seem to do it really well.

Which leads me to believe that it's just that people are all different. I see MI people all the time whom I think "should" have insight (when they're well) of what other people could be saying, meaning, feeling etc., but can't manage to convey it. I also see non-MI people who are like this. I see MI people who "get" other MI people right away - and some who just don't. Some people are just not very good at it, for whatever reason. There could be tons of reasons, IMO, that people do or do not "get where another person is coming from" - not many of them having to do w/MI, either.

So personally, I'm "on the fence" - as far as that kind of declaration goes. I've thought about it a lot, and I really, truly can't decide.

A support group may be a good idea. It very well might help a lot. I'll check around for a good one.

-suzie

Edited by suzie

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This post here just started, and I don' know why; it just seemed to pop up blank, and wouldn't cancel. t don't have anything to write. I just can't cancel it.

Apparently I have to write something first? Maybe then I can cancel it. If not, just ignore this post. Sorry.

-suzie

Edited by suzie

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I want a general idea. It's an intellectual pursuit, not a judgmental one.

You just said more than once you're frustrated/pissed off at her. That's not an intellectual pursuit.

And...

I think you're showing some lack of insight here when you say you are completely baffled by this whole thing. If you've been hospitalized six times, you've been more like she is right now that you're willing to admit. It seems like you're putting this artificial barrier that somehow BP and psychosis are worse and harder to understand than MDD and OCD. That's just not the case.

Maybe, with your own illness to deal with, you're not the person to be dealing with her crisis day after day. You seem to be more angry and frustrated than anything, and that doesn't help you or your friend.

I am concerned. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother to try to find out an answer. I asked a question. That's all. I'm one of the few people who gives a damn about her, in this situation. Irritated or not. I still asked for information. Which would have been more helpful.

If some people don't want to answer a question - a very specific question - that's cool. Good to know.

Re: Hospitals.Since I was hospitalized in the late 1970's (when they hospitlaized people for much less severe illness than they do now, that's a leap to make to conclude. It also isn't true.

Someone w/OCD or MDD auto-understands someone w/BP; Why? Well - just because "they should know." I have completely unrelated illnesses but I should know about BP treatment - because " I just should."

No need to ask questions then. So - I should just CAN the questions. Don't ask; don't tell. Got it. No more questions. No curiosity. Even if I have a genuine need for info. Because apparently " I should know that already"? Why would that be true?

This has been a very insightful, thread. Mostly it's:

1) Answered my original question - which was my only goal (which may or may not have been clear. Because I doubted this - I tried to made it clear. Twice.)

Next time I need information -or have a question...maybe I'll just ask the question. With no background info - which of course people will want to know anyway. But It's useless...to ask quesitons, in any way you ask them. No matter which way you do it.That much I do now know. So - no more question-asking from me. This was a valuable learning experience.

I'm closing my own thread. Anyone else wants to comment - you can talk to eachother.

-suzie

Edited by suzie

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