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december_brigette

the conservatives scare me

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Hi all,

For my MI health Ive been trying to stay away from the news. So, I don't have any nice quotes from the big players. I sort of wandered onto a conservative FB page and OMG I want to tear my eyes out. (I know I should not have gone there).

what really got me were these 2 things:

one dude said only people who own real property or pay taxes should have the right to vote. (Now Im thinking about it and realize I pay taxes every time I buy something...arg!!!)

another person said that "people need to stop thinking they are ENTITLED (his caps not mine) to welfare, medicare, and medicaid."

WTF??? They scare me. I should not have looked. Why does everything have to be so divided and mean?

No flaming, trolling, or nastiness,

db

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Really DB, that's way more extreme than your average AL conservative, and they're petty hard core. They do sound scary, but there aren't enough of them to amount to anything. Really.

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Sounds like the standard Tea Party stance, aka who the republicans think their base is.

There's one thing and only one thing you can do: Vote in every election to which you are entitled. Learn about the candidates and vote. I don't care if it's just for city council or something like that. Places like city councils and school boards are where crazy politicians get their start.

If you're so motivated, volunteer for campaigns. Phone bank. Go canvassing.

If you sign up for OFA they will give you a list of numbers to call and a script to read.

http://www.barackobama.com/im-in-splash-2

Now is the time to get started working on the 2012 campaigns. I have.

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it's the tea party, i think. partner thinks they will split the republicans, that the more moderate ones will just not vote if it is for a tea party candidate, and that is good for Obama, even if his popularity is down because of the debt ceiling thing. i hope partner is right, he follows these things much more closely than i do. it does no bode well, though that Bachmann (was that her name?) won the Iowa straw poll, while the analysists thought she did terribly in the debate before hand.

our ambassador (appointed by Obama) left his post to go raise money for the Obama campaign (asked by Obama to do so). i met him right before he left when we had to renew small person's passport and told him to raise lots and lots of money. he just smiled and said he couldn't comment on that as long as he was ambassador, but you could tell that he was happy to hear that.

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Social conservatives scare me. I can deal with the spend less mentality, provided we're cutting funds that need to be cut (erroneous government jobs for instance). Don't particularly care for the gay marriage bashing, prayer in school, tax cuts for corporations folks.

I really would like to see a liberal who cuts funds to the random crap yet still keeps social works programs intact, or better yet improves social works programs. It seems like the solution is always to raise taxes, which quite frankly should be done for corporations, totally, but it seems to translate to tax increases to the middle-class too. Being middle-class myself, we pay a shit ton in taxes every year compared to what we actually make. I honestly wouldn't mind paying so much in taxes if social works programs improved and were open to more people. But it seems like my taxes go to things such as insane government salaries and wars, which is not cool in my opinion.

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Social conservatives scare me. I can deal with the spend less mentality, provided we're cutting funds that need to be cut (erroneous government jobs for instance). Don't particularly care for the gay marriage bashing, prayer in school, tax cuts for corporations folks.

I really would like to see a liberal who cuts funds to the random crap yet still keeps social works programs intact, or better yet improves social works programs. It seems like the solution is always to raise taxes, which quite frankly should be done for corporations, totally, but it seems to translate to tax increases to the middle-class too. Being middle-class myself, we pay a shit ton in taxes every year compared to what we actually make. I honestly wouldn't mind paying so much in taxes if social works programs improved and were open to more people. But it seems like my taxes go to things such as insane government salaries and wars, which is not cool in my opinion.

If the Bush tax cuts were allowed to expire, we'd be back in the black again. We're in debt because Bush chose to go to war while slashing the taxes of millionaires and corporations.

The thing about cutting government jobs, even if they are needless, is that that raises unemployment. During a recession is the exact wrong time to do that. During a recession is when the government should be paying people to paint murals and build new infrastructure. Government should only cut jobs when the private sector is able to absorb the loss. If you do it any other way, unemployment rises, income tax revenues decline, and the economy goes farther and farther into the shitter.

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what you guys in the states need to realise........ particularly the people on the borderlines; more centrist etc who might vote democrat or vote republican depending on policy; is that the rest of us in the rest of the world are watching you guys; of course....... like hawks; nearly every newspaper in the world gives significant coverage to the US. We'll know almost as much about your elections as you do by the time the vote actually rolls around. We're watching; and we're RELYING on you guys. Don't drop the ball...... VE is right...... vote, vote and vote. I'm socially conservative (at least in the ways that might mystify some here)..... but economically (and socially to tell the truth) I'm miles away from these folks...... because getting the US economy righted has huge ramifications across the whole GLOBE. And raising taxes is going to be part of that; like it or not; Warren Buffett's op-ed piece should be a new manifesto for your nation....... contrast that to a movement that wants to default on debt (???) and cut spending AND taxes....... that is a recipe for global DISASTER......

you have to fight their rhetoric and their rallying, with a considered and reasoned vote..... i wish you all the very best in fighting for what's best for America....... and the world.....

DC

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A lot of the most radically conservative politicians got their start on school boards and city councils. In fact, there was a concerted movement by Evangelical organizations to get people to run, because they know that that is the first step to Congress. Now, it is 20 years later, and we are seeing the fruits of their labor. Michele Bachmann's first elected office was on a School Board.

Even vote in the elections that are about one issue. Once you are in the habit of ALWAYS voting, it no longer seems like you are making some special effort. Also, if you work through poll hours (which is unlikely, polls are open 13 hours around here, but could happen), you are legally allowed time off to vote.

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Social conservatives scare me. I can deal with the spend less mentality, provided we're cutting funds that need to be cut (erroneous government jobs for instance). Don't particularly care for the gay marriage bashing, prayer in school, tax cuts for corporations folks.

I really would like to see a liberal who cuts funds to the random crap yet still keeps social works programs intact, or better yet improves social works programs. It seems like the solution is always to raise taxes, which quite frankly should be done for corporations, totally, but it seems to translate to tax increases to the middle-class too. Being middle-class myself, we pay a shit ton in taxes every year compared to what we actually make. I honestly wouldn't mind paying so much in taxes if social works programs improved and were open to more people. But it seems like my taxes go to things such as insane government salaries and wars, which is not cool in my opinion.

Revoking the Bush tax cuts would have no impact on the middle class.

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Hi all,

Yes, politics are local.

This is horribly wrong of me but I didn't learn about my congress rep until the stupid debt-ceiling crap. Her web page was one thing. Then I was lucky to catch an interview with her on tv (it was late night sunday after the regular news that I've stopped watching). Anyway, her background is phenomenal. She answered the questions with knowledge and poise. I was really astounded at how "local" she is even though she splits time between la and DC.

SashaSue - you are right. and Ive thought about it. Its one thing to write crazy-ass messages on FB its another to actually live it.

db

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Social conservatives scare me. I can deal with the spend less mentality, provided we're cutting funds that need to be cut (erroneous government jobs for instance). Don't particularly care for the gay marriage bashing, prayer in school, tax cuts for corporations folks.

I really would like to see a liberal who cuts funds to the random crap yet still keeps social works programs intact, or better yet improves social works programs. It seems like the solution is always to raise taxes, which quite frankly should be done for corporations, totally, but it seems to translate to tax increases to the middle-class too. Being middle-class myself, we pay a shit ton in taxes every year compared to what we actually make. I honestly wouldn't mind paying so much in taxes if social works programs improved and were open to more people. But it seems like my taxes go to things such as insane government salaries and wars, which is not cool in my opinion.

Revoking the Bush tax cuts would have no impact on the middle class.

It would allow medicaid and medicare to be properly funded, as well as avoiding cuts in social security and raising the retirement age.

It would allow us to solve all this "deficit crisis" madness without having to make draconian cuts to social programs and infrastructure projects.

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But as we have found out, Obama is not invested in the liberal agenda. I knew he was centrist, I didn't realize he was a right centrist. I am disappointed, but I can't say I regret voting for him, because look at the alternative. And I will vote for him again. I actually am waiting for my new bumpersticker that my husband made, in blue with white lettering:

OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT 2012

I guess

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@rowen

I really would like to see a liberal who cuts funds to the random crap yet still keeps social works programs intact, or better yet improves social works programs.

A Good Governance liberal. There is always tax money. What changes are priorities. So a good governance candidate would recommend shifting government spending from lower/obsolete priorities to higher priority areas. Eliminate the mohair subsidy and shift that money to a higher priority area. An efficient government lets you spend more on your top priorities.

@VE

If the Bush tax cuts were allowed to expire, we'd be back in the black again. We're in debt because Bush chose to go to war while slashing the taxes of millionaires and corporations.

Tax cuts expiring fixing out debt problem - Uh . . . no. Surf over to www.usgovernmentspending.com and take a look at federal spending history. Federal spending was $2.98 trillion (deficit $500 billion) for FY 2008, rising to $3.8 trillion (deficit $1600 billion) in FY 2011 - a 28% increase. That's the problem.

Revenue in that time period has held fairly flat - $2.5 trillion in 2008, dropping to about $2.2 trillion in 2011.

But wait - what should federal government spending be? What should the growth rate be? One way is to use a growth rate that one would expect from a business operating in a mature market - say, 3% a year. A 3% increase compounded from FY 2008 would result in a FY 2011 budget of $3.2 trillion (this is an overall 9.2% increase).

But wait - the federal government has growing obligations to retiring baby boomers - so that has a built in growth factor. That's a little harder to pin down - but it's a big problem. Federal health care spending in FY 2008 was $671 billion and FY 2011 is trending to $881 billion - a 31% increase. FY 2016 is projected at $1.2 trillion - a 36% increase from FY 2011 - and a 78% increase from FY 2008. Increases like this are unsustainable - a compounding rate like that will quickly consume all of the cash in the country.

People also have a very short memory when it comes to the Bush tax cuts. Their were two tax cut laws - one in June 2001 and another one in May 2003. Now recall how much the economy sucked 2000 - 2010. The 2001 tax cuts were a reaction to the dot com bubble bursting, leading to a short recession in 2001. Then Sept 11 happened. The 2003 tax cuts were also passed to boost the economy and avoid another recession.

So, what is the solution? The solution is economic growth. The U.S. government is the silent partner of every individual and business in the country. If the economy grows strongly, the taxes collected grow strongly as well. Unfortunately, Obama and his academic team of cabinet members have no clue on how to grow the economy and create jobs - and what ideas they do have, are wrong.

There is a good case to be made to simplify and restructure the tax system - eliminate deductions, lower rates, and broaden the taxable economic activity. Change the tax code so that corporations are taxed on territorial income, not worldwide - this will have the effect of repatriating capital for investment in the U.S. To grow jobs in the U.S., we need to make the United States the most attractive place in the world to run a business. We especially need more manufacturing - so let's make the U.S. the best place in the world for manufacturing. Part of that is taxation - the other part is regulation. Regulations need to be reduced, streamlined, and rational. I can make widgets in Thailand -- if you would prefer I make them in the U.S., then you need low, stable taxes and a simpler regulatory environment. Note that this doesn't mean the U.S. needs to have the lowest business taxes, or the least regulations -- the U.S. has other benefits (security, political stability, the most productive workers in the world) that offset slightly higher costs for taxes and regulation.

Obama and the democrats would have some angst with this - after all, in the resulting economic growth, some people would get rich. Of course, these rich people would have earned it.

@VE

The thing about cutting government jobs, even if they are needless, is that that raises unemployment. During a recession is the exact wrong time to do that. During a recession is when the government should be paying people to paint murals and build new infrastructure.

This Keynsian theory has been proved wrong every time it's tried. Needless government jobs and mural painting is also inflationary.

As for infrastructure, that sounds good - except, infrastructure only helps if spurs economic growth. The politicians have a habit of wasting money on infrastructure. Just who is paying off the democrats on high speed rail? High speed rail is always a boondoggle - very expensive and moving too few people between destinations people don't want to go to. There are some limited areas in the country where it could make sense - say, between Baltimore and Washington D.C. - and other east coast corridors. But those have right of way issues - so they build high speed rail in the middle of nowhere. And how many times have we heard of "crumbling roads and bridges" - I've been hearing it for 30 years, and hey, the bridges haven't been falling down (with one exception, but that was a design issue, not a maintenance issue). The case for maintenance is overstated; however, the some government research on more durable materials for construction could pay off.

The talk about cutting government jobs would go away if we had efficient, effective government - i.e., Good Governance. In a recession, the government could just freeze employment. If priorities shift, you move people from low priority areas to high ones, staying under your freeze level. Instead, we have every department in the government wanting to grow headcount and engaging in endless featherbedding to keep people employed.

@crtlcms

A lot of the most radically conservative politicians got their start on school boards and city councils. In fact, there was a concerted movement by Evangelical organizations to get people to run, because they know that that is the first step to Congress. Now, it is 20 years later, and we are seeing the fruits of their labor. Michele Bachmann's first elected office was on a School Board.

We haven't seen the fruits of their labor yet. The leftist 60's radicals who entered politics 40 years ago - we're experiencing the fruits of their labors now.

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What leftist radicals? Are you talking about Congress? Because Congress is a corporatist cesspool. The only leftist in Congress is Bernie Sanders. Everyone else is at best a moderate liberal, and most not even that.

And which of those lefty radicals are running for president? Better still, since Reagan, name one liberal President. And if you list Clinton, let me roll on the floor laughing for a bit, so I can regain my composure. The last liberal president left office in 1980.

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Corporations don't outsource jobs because of taxes. Corporations outsource jobs because they want to exploite poor people abroad by paying them a fraction of what they would have to pay an American worker.

The way to deal with outsourcing is to impose massive tariffs on any goods manufactured abroad by an American corporation. That would give the competitive edge to companies who keep their manufacturing within the US.

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Kodos -

1) I don't really think it's your place to say what any sort of liberal would or wouldn't do, so clearly not being one yourself.

2) I think Obama has a little bit too much money himself to credibly be accused of taking issue with anyone getting rich.

3) The big thing about maintaining infrastructure has fuck all to do with its promoting economic growth. It's actually pretty important to just fucking maintain the infrastructure, so bridges don't collapse and cities don't flood.

4) If we need to create business conditions on par with China to regain manufacturing jobs, maybe they really aren't worth regaining.

5) I would adore some leftist radicals. Really, you have no idea. Please, tell me where to find them?

Crtclms -

I think Dennis Kucinich is an actual progressive. But he's the only other one who comes to mind.

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one dude said only people who own real property or pay taxes should have the right to vote. (Now Im thinking about it and realize I pay taxes every time I buy something...arg!!!)

I think I read the same opinion piece. I do have to question the expertise of any economics commentator who does not realize that landlords must pass the cost of property taxes on to their tenants. In a very real sense, as a tenant you do pay property taxes.

So, if the analysis overlooks even basic elements of cost accounting, how good can it be? What else is missing that may not be so obvious?

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This thread on American politics is fun! In the same vein, I'm thinking about starting a topic called...

"RELIGION: ARE YOU GOING TO HELL?!?!" tongue.gif

Edited by Obscuremachine

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