Obama is a socialist?

[confused]

No, I don't think that's true. But, I was on another site and a man was arguing politics and he said Obama is a socialist. I did a quick google to find something to show him he how silly that was, but I came across statements by tea party members comparing liberals including Obama to socialists. It was news that Romney didn't go that far. I'm a democrat and I see Obama as more of a centrist. I don't really know what is so wrong with socialism, but I don't think it fits. It would be almost funny if it was like the birthers who don't believe he was born in the US, but this seems to have some momentum.

[Obscuremachine]

I really try to stay out of political discussions, and usually when I comment on here about something political, I go back and delete it, just b/c I don't want to be identified that way. But, I have to say, I don't really see anyone who is a real centrist. The right believes they are center, as does the left. But there is no real honest "working together", no "give and take." Just ultimatums on both sides.

I love this quote on socialism, not because I have an opinion, I just think it's clever:

'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'? -Margaret Thatcher

[Calypte]

Obama is definitely not a socialist, but the Tea Party definition of socialism seems to be "anything to the left of us". I also tend to think of Obama as more of a moderate. I am more left-wing than Obama is and still not a socialist.

[confused]

I love this quote on socialism, not because I have an opinion, I just think it's clever:

'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'? -Margaret Thatcher

Great quote

[bpladybug]

I keep looking around for some of that socialized medicine and I can't find any!! Still paying my own outrageous premiums. Funny thing, all my clients are still paying their insurance premiums. When do we get some yummy socialized medicine? I would like some.

[Guest Vapourware]

Not that I know too much about current American politics, but it seems that to some people, if a person moves away from the ideas of:

+ an individual is only responsible for themselves;

+ level playing field;

then they are 'socialist'. The idea that all members of society contribute to each other's welfare through greater government intervention, and the fact that the idea of a level playing field is a myth, seems anathema to them.

I'm very left wing, but I'm not entirely sure that I'm socialist.

[bpladybug]

Not that I know too much about current American politics, but it seems that to some people, if a person moves away from the ideas of:

+ an individual is only responsible for themselves;

+ level playing field;

then they are 'socialist'. The idea that all members of society contribute to each other's welfare through greater government intervention, and the fact that the idea of a level playing field is a myth, seems anathema to them.

I think your perceptions are accurate. There is a real element of FEAR when you calll someone a socialist. And it is a total right wing response to thoughtful attempts to create a more caring, compassionate society. I mean, they actually want to dissolve any federal standards for education. Just terminate the Dept. of Education. incredible?? huh??

[Velvet Elvis]

I'm an honest to god Marx reading socialist. I'm opposed to private property and all that good stuff.

That's how I can laugh my ass off when democrats are called socialist. Hell, if the Republicans weren't so damn scary I wouldn't even put up with the Democrats. I voted for Nader in 2000 but didn't really care for where that got us and have held my nose and voted for Democrats ever since.

[Cetkat]

I'm very left wing as well. I don't know how much of socialism I agree with, as I can't claim to really know that much about it. The little bit I do know, I find nothing wrong with.

[maristrider]

I sometimes point people to the Political Compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org

They've mapped policy statements by candidates in the 2008 US Presidential election. In world terms, Obama is not only not socialist, he's slightly right of centre. Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney = moderate left libertarian. Brian Moore = socialist.

[olga]

What's amusing about this whole thing is that it was one of the Fox Network people who first labeled Obama as a socialist. He later admitted that he was looking for a term that would agitate the right wing folks, and 'socialist' and "communist' both fit the bill. His name is Bill Sammon and he said he used the term"mischievously."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20048382-503544.html

If you say something often enough, people start to believe it. It doesn't have to have even of crumb of truth.

olga

[SashaSue]

I wish Obama was a socialist. Alas, he's not really even much of a liberal.

[Emettman]

It would be funny if it didn't have have really negative potential.

This "demonising the other side" in an over-the-top way has a tendency to empty the centre ground, leading to polarisation.

Those who swallow the propaganda can see less and less reason to compromise and cooperate with such terrible people and their followers, and those who see the propaganda as repelling caricature tend to be moved towards the opposite camp (and if both sides use this technique of exaggeration, it multiplies up.)

Spanish politics prior to their civil war is an instructive example.

As a Brit I have more idea what socialism (for good and ill) can involve, and Obama and the democrats are no socialists.

If I want to demonstrate socialism to Americans, (especially if I'm feeling mischievous towards right-wing Christians) I turn to the bible, and the behaviour of early believers.

Acts 4:32-35.

"All the believers were one in heart and mind.

No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them, for from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

[Saeihr]

I think I share in Vapourware's political ideals.

[confused]

It would be funny if it didn't have have really negative potential.

This "demonising the other side" in an over-the-top way has a tendency to empty the centre ground, leading to polarisation.

Those who swallow the propaganda can see less and less reason to compromise and cooperate with such terrible people and their followers, and those who see the propaganda as repelling caricature tend to be moved towards the opposite camp (and if both sides use this technique of exaggeration, it multiplies up.)

Spanish politics prior to their civil war is an instructive example.

As a Brit I have more idea what socialism (for good and ill) can involve, and Obama and the democrats are no socialists.

If I want to demonstrate socialism to Americans, (especially if I'm feeling mischievous towards right-wing Christians) I turn to the bible, and the behaviour of early believers.

Acts 4:32-35.

"All the believers were one in heart and mind.

No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them, for from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

Thank you. I'm going to use that.

[lysergia]

As a Brit I have more idea what socialism (for good and ill) can involve, and Obama and the democrats are no socialists.

from a Canadian perspective, it's almost funny. we're supposed to be the bleeding hearts of north america and even *we* can't elect a socialist! our socialist party has even morphed into something barely recognizable as "leftist". few people understand what socialism really is. i'm old, but when i was in school (walking barefoot through the snow) we were forced to learn the difference between democracy and socialism and communism and dictatorship and blah blah. those words are all loose adjectives now.

Acts 4:32-35.

"All the believers were one in heart and mind.

No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them, for from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

this is lovely. i'd like to quote this in the future too.

[crtclms]

I am closer to Socialist than any other political ideology. Right now, I would call Obama Right-Center. He could change my mind.

[water]

I wish Obama was a socialist. Alas, he's not really even much of a liberal.

Totally agree.

A very lefty friend calls Obama a 'facist' which I don't get at all.

However, I would MUCH rather have a center right democrat in the White House then any flavor of Republican.

[Guest Recluse]

from a Canadian perspective, it's almost funny. we're supposed to be the bleeding hearts of north america and even *we* can't elect a socialist! our socialist party has even morphed into something barely recognizable as "leftist". few people understand what socialism really is. i'm old, but when i was in school (walking barefoot through the snow) we were forced to learn the difference between democracy and socialism and communism and dictatorship and blah blah. those words are all loose adjectives now.

This. A thousand times this.

Likewise, a lot of people in the US like to throw around 'democracy', when in fact, we are actually a republic. They all have become only semi-correct buzzwords not unlike someone referring to a novel behavior as 'bipolar', 'ocd', or 'psycho'.

[Cetkat]

Likewise, a lot of people in the US like to throw around 'democracy', when in fact, we are actually a republic.

That's a pet-peeve of mine. Democracy my ass.

[SashaSue]

I wish Obama was a socialist. Alas, he's not really even much of a liberal.

Totally agree.

A very lefty friend calls Obama a 'facist' which I don't get at all.

However, I would MUCH rather have a center right democrat in the White House then any flavor of Republican.

Couldn't agree more.

Crtclms, I think you might be underestimating the extreme positions taken by the right these days. By those standards, being pro-choice, opposing DADT, supporting any kind of domestic partnership, civil union, or whatever, for same sex couples, proposing tax increases for people with incomes above $250,000, or whatever the boundary is exactly, investment in infrastructure and green technologies, believing in evolution, and in a human contribution to climate change, supporting the continued existence of the EPA, keep him well out of the right. Hell, any one of those would keep him out, altogether, they make him a pariah to them.

[Guest Vapourware]

I'll go out on a limb here and say the majority of American politics is on the right. Just varying stages of the right.

To be honest, there are times when I think that the only politics that really gives a crap about the good of humanity is the left, which is why I'm a staunch and proud leftist.

Caveat: I'm not an extreme leftist and I think extreme politics are detrimental.

[Velvet Elvis]

I'll go out on a limb here and say the majority of American politics is on the right. Just varying stages of the right.

To be honest, there are times when I think that the only politics that really gives a crap about the good of humanity is the left, which is why I'm a staunch and proud leftist.

Caveat: I'm not an extreme leftist and I think extreme politics are detrimental.

Define "extreme politics."

I'm an anti-capitalist and collectivist. I think classical liberalism has failed and collectivism is the way of the future if we want to survive. At the same time, I'm nowhere close to picking up arms and fighting off capitalist oppression. I'm a Marxist and believe that revolutions happen when and where they do as a matter of historical necessity. Trying to force it rather than let things take their natural course is what had the soviet union fucked from the get go. Lenin had a lot of good ideas but was wrong about the need for vanguard to push revolutionary consciousness outside of class consciousness.

[Guest Vapourware]

The main fault of Lenin, IMO, is this belief of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". What happened in reality is that he supplanted one unfair and inequitable system for another. So what happened instead was one ruling class was removed, and another ruling class was put in place. It was just that the names were different.

I would love collectivism to work. It worked very well in Catalonia in the 1930s before the Fascists came to crush them, but those were small-scale communes. I don't know how that would translate on a country level.

To me, "extreme" politics is when there is no room for discussion, tolerance of others or an agreement to disagree on issues. While I'm not a fan of right-wing politics, neither do I think it would be fair of me to bludgeon someone with my opinion and insist that the only view that is valid is mine.

[Emettman]

I would love collectivism to work. It worked very well in Catalonia in the 1930s before the Fascists came to crush them, but those were small-scale communes. I don't know how that would translate on a country level.

At least one other person who knows of the anarcho-syndicalists of Spain, and their fate!

They weren't whole-heartedly supported by the Russian communists of their own Republican side, not being the "right sort" of communist community.

It isn't easy to see how it would have scaled up to massive industries, infrastructure projects and national governments,

(probably got fouled up by human nature, as with other systems however good their theoretical foundations) but I would have loved to have seen it get a get a chance to succeed or fail on its own terms.

Chris.

[Velvet Elvis]

I would love collectivism to work. It worked very well in Catalonia in the 1930s before the Fascists came to crush them, but those were small-scale communes. I don't know how that would translate on a country level.

At least one other person who knows of the anarcho-syndicalists of Spain, and their fate!

They weren't whole-heartedly supported by the Russian communists of their own Republican side, not being the "right sort" of communist community.

It isn't easy to see how it would have scaled up to massive industries, infrastructure projects and national governments,

(probably got fouled up by human nature, as with other systems however good their theoretical foundations) but I would have loved to have seen it get a get a chance to succeed or fail on its own terms.

Chris.

I've read the stuff Marx wrote about utopian anarchists and I think it's entirely valid. Historical materialism wins out. You've got to have a workable process by which you can take a culture from point A to point B which is in line with the history of the culture. You can't just wish it and make it so.

I can't remember the specific names of the pieces or the specific anarchists he was responding to at the moment.

[Guest Vapourware]

While I don't necessarily disagree with the concept of reaching a collectivist/communist style of government in stages, firstly I'm not entirely convinced that such a system could work on a large scale. Mainly because I think decision-making would be rather hampered by such a style of government. On a small scale? I don't think it's difficult to coordinate discussions, votings, etc. On a large scale, involving millions of people? I think that would be very problematic.

Secondly, I also don't necessarily think you need a gradual progression like the "dictatorship of the proletariat" because, as we've seen not only in Soviet Russia but in China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc. who were influenced by the Leninist model, it supplants one ruling class for another.

For me, I think the solution is to take some socialist concepts and apply them to current governments. Universal education, universal health care, government control of essential services, the assurance that people have a basic living wage - I think those are eminently attainable.

[Retromancer]

We readers of Orwell's Homage to Catalonia are everywhere...

I would love collectivism to work. It worked very well in Catalonia in the 1930s before the Fascists came to crush them, but those were small-scale communes. I don't know how that would translate on a country level.

At least one other person who knows of the anarcho-syndicalists of Spain, and their fate!

They weren't whole-heartedly supported by the Russian communists of their own Republican side, not being the "right sort" of communist community.

It isn't easy to see how it would have scaled up to massive industries, infrastructure projects and national governments,

(probably got fouled up by human nature, as with other systems however good their theoretical foundations) but I would have loved to have seen it get a get a chance to succeed or fail on its own terms.

Chris.

[Cetkat]

At least one other person who knows of the anarcho-syndicalists of Spain, and their fate!

Two people. It really is a shame that it ended prematurely like that. I, too, would have loved to have seen what it could have become. My memory of it is pretty vague now however.

[SashaSue]

I'll go out on a limb here and say the majority of American politics is on the right. Just varying stages of the right.

To be honest, there are times when I think that the only politics that really gives a crap about the good of humanity is the left, which is why I'm a staunch and proud leftist.

Caveat: I'm not an extreme leftist and I think extreme politics are detrimental.

Yeah, there's this wierd dynamic here, where the right doesn't hesitate to bring their most extreme wackos out into the front yard, while the left are so terrified of being called liberals, they keep their relative extremists hidden away in the attic. So the whole political spectrum has shifted to the right. What gets called the center often just isn't.

[Guest Vapourware]

The current political climate of America is a real shame, considering the Declaration of Independence can be interpreted as something along the lines of the political left:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

At the moment, it seems evident to me that in current-day America, there is mass inequality.