Sleeping cycle severely messed up.

[item0]

I can't seem to sleep during the night, except occasionally. Sometimes my sleeping period moves about 1-3 hours later every night, eventually bringing me to a regular sleep schedule but it only lasts about 3 days at the very most. Usually though, my sleeping time stays the same which usually means I end up sleeping all day then staying up all night. Given my extremely poor sleep hygiene, one would expect some sleeping difficulties, but not this severe. Especially given that I take all my anti-anxiety medications right before i should be going to sleep. I also avoid PRN's (as needed medications), though once a week or so I end up having to use them.

I've identified some possible causes

-fear of night, and, paradoxically:

-feeling more at ease during the night time, more comfortable wasting my time

-poor sleep hygine

-avoidance of light during the day

-Night Eating Syndrome

Tell me what you think. Thanks.

[saveyoursanity]

Have you had a sleep study? Ruled out DSPS?

[item0]

Have you had a sleep study? Ruled out DSPS?

I had a sleep study and they didn't mention anything about DSPS. Does that mean I don't have it?

[Anna]

You need light to regulate your circadian rhythms. Get some, especially first thing in the morning.

Melatonin (the substance your body produces naturally to make you sleepy) might be helpful in this instance. Melatonin certainly helps ME with sleep, though it does not work for everyone. But it might be worth a shot.

Also, talking to pdoc and seeing about a really good sleep medication to try, if you haven't done this already.

But, bottom line, you are going to have to put some effort into regulating your circadian rhythms and staying awake during the day, or not much will change. Exercise daily during the day can also be helpful with sleep. Mild relaxants include chamomile tea (surprisingly helpful for me with anxiety at times) warm milk, etc. But you need to put some effort into this, to expect any changes. Good sleep hygiene is going to be essential if a sleep study did not find any abnormalities.

Anna

[Blue Morpho]

I've had a rolling schedule like yours for a long time. It's always been really tough to fight it. But it is inconvenient at best, and ends up with me getting less sleep than I need, and feeling out of whack with anyone I might want to interact with. I'm also hoping to be able to go back to work someday, so I've been putting a lot of effort into trying to fix this.

My light therapy has helped. I have eliminated almost all sources of outside light in my bedroom, so it is really dark in there for sleep. I now have one of those alarm clocks that slowly light up in the morning. That thing actually helps. And then I get up and use the regular light therapy device while I drink my tea (only cup of caffeinated tea for the day.) So it means that I am now pretty awake only 45 minutes after getting up, instead of feeling like a zombie for hours and hours. And my alarm clock has this other great feature. It will slowly dim at night. So on those nights where I am afraid to go to sleep w/o a light, I can set it to dim over 30 or even 60 minutes, and then I'm usually asleep before it gets dark, with no light to wake me back up again. Pretty cool.

Other things that work for me - Eating a really good breakfast; if I get the urge to eat at night I can usually fight it by telling myself what a great breakfast I'm going to have (note I do not have an official night eating dx so it is prob easier for me to fight this urge.) No late night video games. Sometimes meditation before bed helps, sometimes it makes me a little more agitated. But I try it if I'm feeling that "I don't want to go to bed" feeling.

Fun facts - For some reason humans seem to be tuned to a 25 hour day. When people have no clocks or sunlight, many of them seem to gravitate to a natural sleep cycle that's longer than 24 hours. A lot of my friends are more comfortable with longer days, and would live that way if they could. We are geeky scientists and call it "Living on Mars time" since Mars has a day that is 24 hrs 37 min. Some of my friends working on Mars missions actually had to do this for months, and some of them loved it. I try to console myself with the fact that tidal interactions between the Earth and Moon are lengthening the Earth's day by 1.7 milliseconds a year. An hour is 3,600,000 milliseconds so in a little over 2 million years the Earth will finally match our 25 hour sleep cycle.

[Cetkat]

I try to console myself with the fact that tidal interactions between the Earth and Moon are lengthening the Earth's day by 1.7 milliseconds a year. An hour is 3,600,000 milliseconds so in a little over 2 million years the Earth will finally match our 25 hour sleep cycle.

That is awesome. I knew it was slowing down, but I never figured it out in that fashion, heh. I wonder how the concept of a year will fare in that..

[saveyoursanity]

Doesn't necessarily mean you don't have DSPS if they didn't test specifically for that. Infosleep.ca - Circadian Rhythm Disorders - DSPS seems to have decent info on what you can do to treat DSPS. Anna had some really great ideas... sleep hygiene is KEY here.

[Gearhead]

Fun facts - For some reason humans seem to be tuned to a 25 hour day. When people have no clocks or sunlight, many of them seem to gravitate to a natural sleep cycle that's longer than 24 hours. A lot of my friends are more comfortable with longer days, and would live that way if they could. We are geeky scientists and call it "Living on Mars time" since Mars has a day that is 24 hrs 37 min. Some of my friends working on Mars missions actually had to do this for months, and some of them loved it. I try to console myself with the fact that tidal interactions between the Earth and Moon are lengthening the Earth's day by 1.7 milliseconds a year. An hour is 3,600,000 milliseconds so in a little over 2 million years the Earth will finally match our 25 hour sleep cycle.

I love this. It's good to know that I'm just ahead of my time.

As to sleep and how to get it, I've struggled with this for years, since I was a kid. Currently my best practices are:

• Getting some vigorous exercise at least every other day.
  
• Taking my sleep meds (and oh boy, do I need sleep meds) at a consistent time before I lie down to sleep. The first round goes an hour before bed, and the second half an hour. Somehow, if I don't stagger them, I wake up feeling sick and hung over.
  
• Sitting in a darkened room (our t.v. happens to be in the basement, so that works nicely) for an hour before I want to go to bed. By darkened I mean lit only by a couple of lamps and
  
• Watching some television or a movie with the volume turned way down. Noise makes me nuts. This is also the part of the day when I get to hang out with my husband and talk to him.
  
• Really, really light-proofing my bedroom with opaque curtains so that I don't wake up the instant the sun rises.
  
• Setting my alarm for the same time every day and getting up when it goes off (well, I hit snooze once or twice, but I have that figured in to my time), whether I'm still tired or not. Much as this sometimes sucks, it makes a HUGE difference.
  

I know, I know, it sounds incredibly rigidly structured. It is. But I'm sleeping a consistent and more or less sound eight hours a night these days, for the first time, and I like it so much and feel so much better that it's well worth shooting a certain amount of spontaneity out of my life.

[notfred]

I had a sleep study

Did they find anything ?

nf

[saveyoursanity]

Oh, and this is TOTALLY ANEDOCTAL, but I use a computer program called f.lux that changes the light on your computer screen to be less blue and more red when the sun goes down. Since I started using it, I'm finding it much easier to go to bed.

[y58]

I also use f.lux

[item0]

You need light to regulate your circadian rhythms. Get some, especially first thing in the morning. Melatonin (the substance your body produces naturally to make you sleepy) might be helpful in this instance. Melatonin certainly helps ME with sleep, though it does not work for everyone. But it might be worth a shot. Also, talking to pdoc and seeing about a really good sleep medication to try, if you haven't done this already. But, bottom line, you are going to have to put some effort into regulating your circadian rhythms and staying awake during the day, or not much will change. Exercise daily during the day can also be helpful with sleep. Mild relaxants include chamomile tea (surprisingly helpful for me with anxiety at times) warm milk, etc. But you need to put some effort into this, to expect any changes. Good sleep hygiene is going to be essential if a sleep study did not find any abnormalities. Anna

Sometimes you need to hear it from another person(s) for it to sink in, but I am putting more effort into it now, thanks for the advice. I'm going to try all of that. Actually, I've already got a new med (trazodone), I'll post some time in the future whether it worked or not (if anyone can benefit from that knowledge). My only question is: get some what? Exercise? Looks like you didn't finish yourself in that post.

[item0]

I've had a rolling schedule like yours for a long time. It's always been really tough to fight it. But it is inconvenient at best, and ends up with me getting less sleep than I need, and feeling out of whack with anyone I might want to interact with. I'm also hoping to be able to go back to work someday, so I've been putting a lot of effort into trying to fix this.

My light therapy has helped. I have eliminated almost all sources of outside light in my bedroom, so it is really dark in there for sleep. I now have one of those alarm clocks that slowly light up in the morning. That thing actually helps. And then I get up and use the regular light therapy device while I drink my tea (only cup of caffeinated tea for the day.) So it means that I am now pretty awake only 45 minutes after getting up, instead of feeling like a zombie for hours and hours. And my alarm clock has this other great feature. It will slowly dim at night. So on those nights where I am afraid to go to sleep w/o a light, I can set it to dim over 30 or even 60 minutes, and then I'm usually asleep before it gets dark, with no light to wake me back up again. Pretty cool.

Other things that work for me - Eating a really good breakfast; if I get the urge to eat at night I can usually fight it by telling myself what a great breakfast I'm going to have (note I do not have an official night eating dx so it is prob easier for me to fight this urge.) No late night video games. Sometimes meditation before bed helps, sometimes it makes me a little more agitated. But I try it if I'm feeling that "I don't want to go to bed" feeling.

Fun facts - For some reason humans seem to be tuned to a 25 hour day. When people have no clocks or sunlight, many of them seem to gravitate to a natural sleep cycle that's longer than 24 hours. A lot of my friends are more comfortable with longer days, and would live that way if they could. We are geeky scientists and call it "Living on Mars time" since Mars has a day that is 24 hrs 37 min. Some of my friends working on Mars missions actually had to do this for months, and some of them loved it. I try to console myself with the fact that tidal interactions between the Earth and Moon are lengthening the Earth's day by 1.7 milliseconds a year. An hour is 3,600,000 milliseconds so in a little over 2 million years the Earth will finally match our 25 hour sleep cycle.

Thank you!

[Anna]

No, get some light, first thing in the morning.

If you want more info on this, re: regulating sleep cycles, you can check out the light pages/dark pages on psycheducation.org. They have a lot of very helpful information, including the use of light boxes first thing in the morning, and also "dark glasses" that you can use at night, that screen out certain UV rays that are everywhere in our current culture, particularly with lights, computer screens, and whatnot. Those might help you, you wear them a few hours before bedtime, and they screen out the light that is responsible for keeping you awake.

Light has a pretty big effect on me. I find I sleep much better when I'm dealing with a campfire and no computer than lights, computer, activity, and whatnot. So light can have a huge effect, really.

Traz is a magic bullet for sleep for some people, though it did not work for me. Also, some of the hypnotics really work better than anti-anxiety meds for sleep, to be honest. Ambien was my sleep drug of choice for a long time, and I don't really habituate to it.

For bringing out the big guns, there is seroquel. That med, if you've never tried it, is the sleepiest, sleepiest, AAP. That said, I see you are on two AAPs already, but seroquel for sleep seems to function best at extremely low doses for some people. Like, 50--100 m.g. (at which point it will be TOTALLY ineffective for sx of schizophrenia). But, as a last resort, it works well. It's a part of my sleep cocktail and I think it will be for life.

Anna

[Blue Morpho]

Thanks for the pointers to f.lux. Just downloaded it and I think it will really help with eye strain, if nothing else. Told my husband and he gave me one of those looks and said, "I told you about that months ago." Ooops. Anxiety is hard on the short term memory ...

[item0]

Doesn't necessarily mean you don't have DSPS if they didn't test specifically for that. Infosleep.ca - Circadian Rhythm Disorders - DSPS seems to have decent info on what you can do to treat DSPS. Anna had some really great ideas... sleep hygiene is KEY here.

Thanks! Sounds like there's a possibility that I have this. Is this something a doctor can diagnose; I mean is it an official diagnosis? If it is, how do I go about explaining that I need another sleep study *or whatever study that could identify DSPS) to Doctors that just want to make their money and rush me out the door. I suspect some of the staff believe I have hypochondria or Munchhausen syndrom, here at the university medical school where I go to get treatment.

Oh, and this is TOTALLY ANEDOCTAL, but I use a computer program called f.lux that changes the light on your computer screen to be less blue and more red when the sun goes down. Since I started using it, I'm finding it much easier to go to bed.

Thanks, I hope this helps. I'm doing every little thing I can to manage this NES now.

[item0]

I just wanted to re-iterate what was written by the other respondents about sleep hygiene.

I recently stopped watching TV or using my computer at night and bought opaque black-out curtains for my bedroom. It has made quite a difference.

I also started burning incense before bed and listening to a sound machine while I fall asleep. Tuning in to the nature sounds helps to quiet my racing mind and the incense, for some reason, are really soothing.

Wishing you restful sleep.

Thank you. Tried this, minus the incense and sound machine. didn't work too good.

[item0]

No, get some light, first thing in the morning.

If you want more info on this, re: regulating sleep cycles, you can check out the light pages/dark pages on psycheducation.org. They have a lot of very helpful information, including the use of light boxes first thing in the morning, and also "dark glasses" that you can use at night, that screen out certain UV rays that are everywhere in our current culture, particularly with lights, computer screens, and whatnot. Those might help you, you wear them a few hours before bedtime, and they screen out the light that is responsible for keeping you awake.

Light has a pretty big effect on me. I find I sleep much better when I'm dealing with a campfire and no computer than lights, computer, activity, and whatnot. So light can have a huge effect, really.

Traz is a magic bullet for sleep for some people, though it did not work for me. Also, some of the hypnotics really work better than anti-anxiety meds for sleep, to be honest. Ambien was my sleep drug of choice for a long time, and I don't really habituate to it.

For bringing out the big guns, there is seroquel. That med, if you've never tried it, is the sleepiest, sleepiest, AAP. That said, I see you are on two AAPs already, but seroquel for sleep seems to function best at extremely low doses for some people. Like, 50--100 m.g. (at which point it will be TOTALLY ineffective for sx of schizophrenia). But, as a last resort, it works well. It's a part of my sleep cocktail and I think it will be for life.

Anna

Thanks again for a very helpful post, Anna. I'm trying Trazodone right now. (I think this is the third time I tried it but I don't remember what it's effects were nor does the resident (student psychiatrist) at the university medical center I go to). It does make me sleepier, but it doesn't make me go to sleep at the time I want to with the current dose. I'm going to sleep a 2-4 hours earlier but that's still like 4-5 AM, so I guess I need to try a higher dose.

[Gearhead]

I don't usually use my computer much after about six or seven p,m., but I downloaded f.lux anyway and I love it. I downloaded it in the evening and as the screen turned pinkish I felt this huge surge of calm. It was sort of bizarre.

[crtclms]

Oooh, thanks for pointing me towards f.lux, I can see it is helping already.

[saveyoursanity]

You're welcome! I should get some sort of kickback (just kidding, it's a free program anyway).

[Anna]

wow just downloaded it... as my comp is the only light I use once in bed, it should help. It's really neat.

Anna

[item0]

Yeah thanks again everyone! Don't know what specifically did it, but I've taken many of your suggestions and am now getting better sleep and, more importantly going to sleep at a better time. Some of the suggestions I took were getting more sunlight, better sleep hygiene, waking up around the same time in the morning no matter what, and f.lux. Hopefully this thread can help others in the future!

EDIT: One problem remaining though is that I seem to feel drowsy in the morning for about 4 hours still.

[crtclms]

Okay, can I say I think the f.lux is helping? I don't know, it is subtle. I have it set so the screen changes slowly over an hour, and it is like a very mild sedative. Now I should mention, I have been up for the last 29 hours, but honest to god, that just happens to me about once every 10-14 days, it is weird. BUT, in general, I am going to bed at a more "normal" time, like by 1 at the latest, and usually more like 12:15.

[Gearhead]

I also just downloaded a program called Relax and Sleep (also free) to my Android phone...don't know if it's available for iProducts. Anyway, it lets you make up your ideal combination of soothing noises, such as a blend of campfire, loons, frogs, and maybe the occasional owl. I prefer the running dishwasher noise, myself. There's also a $2 upgrade that my husband bought. Lay off the wolves in the distance if you have dogs, is my advice. We live and learn.