Should I switch to valium?

[ManWitPlan]

I'm reading the book how dysfunctional families spur mental disorders and in it he talks about how valium is one of the least addicting benzos cause of its long half life. Heres the excerpt

"An old joke asks, ‘‘What is the difference between a tranquilizer

and a sleeping pill?’’ The answer: marketing. This is the correct

answer. All of the drugs help both anxiety and insomnia. The only

major difference among them is important, however: They vary in

terms of their half-life, the amount of time they stick around in the

body before being eliminated. This is important because the shorter

the half-life, the more addictive they are."

So should I switch from ativan to valium? Also since valiums half life is so long does this mean if I take one small dose say in the morning I feel relief all day? Compared to say xanax which has a very small half life?

[Jen78]

Im on valuim 3 times a day so I guess it depends on the amount of anxiety you have

[melissaw72]

I would ask pdoc what s/he thinks.

[gizmo]

I personally don't believe that half-life has anything to do with dependency potential. We just had a discussion on how half-life does not equal how long you feel the effects in your system. Valium's half life may be days long, but you don't take it once every three days, do you? It wears off after 4-8 hours like other benzos do.

The only difference is klonopin, which kicks in very slowly, lasts a long time. But you can still become just as dependent on that as you can any other benzo.

[crtclms]

I think there are a lot of housewives and their families in the 50s-70s would question your assertion that you can't get addicted to Valium. But, as you should know by now, dependence and addiction are not the same thing. Valium and librium were both horribly over-used. That scared off doctors for using them for some time.

Also, it sounds like they are comparing valium to things like Xanax. Not comparable.

Valium and librium are good for a lot of people, but almost any benzo can become addictive if you are so inclined.

[chimpmaster]

Unfortunately, at this point in time there are pros and cons of every benzo. Xanax is the fasting acting and if you like (strongest) benzo but it has the down side of a really short half-life. Valium & Klonopin last for ages but take longer to kick in and have a less intence "high" if you like,

[HAL9000]

I can't speak for anything but Valium (Well one try of Ativan) Valium is to me kind of subtle. Its not like a POW you feel different. Its more of a humm... I am no longer feeling tons of anxiety. The one try with Ativan was more of a pow - your semi vegged out now.

There are times I wish I had a stronger drug (Xanax?) but I think the subtle stuff is probably better in terms of me not "liking it too much." If you know what I mean. And as to housewives with issues? God yes. The neighbor was on Valium (A rather high dose I think) for eons. Her doctor kept refilling it until one day she wanted to go over her meds and the Doctor had to ask her "Why are you taking Valium?" and it was some injury or surgery thing. He told her to stop which you don't do after taking it regularly for a long time. She was bent over our fence barfing. She said it was an awful feeling. Anyway she got weened off it and she was quite happy to be able to smell flowers enjoy sunshine all the normal stuff....

[notfred]

I think you need to be on what feels right. This kind of measure is not always found in technical information. I've tried several different benzos but I came right back to Ativan.

[aregon]

Given the publicity in magazines, books, but mostly in movies I think addiction comes from branding too.

Isn't less addictive a generic round alprazolam pill than the oval one packed in that fancy white box with purple writing Xanax and Pfizer's logo?

What if Ativan would be Anxiar and Klonopin Rivotril? I bet would make a difference.

[crtclms]

Addiction has nothing to do with branding. Nothing. You think you can't get addicted to generics?

[Jen78]

Agree with gizmo. Generic doesnt mean shit when it comes to addiction

And a benzo addiction is nasty, ive been there before

[aregon]

Right then. Why spending money on the brand when there are generics more than 50% cheaper?

[crtclms]

Really? Jesus. Do you understand what generics actually are? They are certain compounds made by drug companies

*after* the company that invented the compound's patent has expired.

Only the company that initially put a med on the market may sell that med for several years. Then the patent expires, and all the other companies jump on board.

And some people only respond to name brand, so the original company keeps manufacturing it.

Addiction should not be a *goal* of taking benzos, by the way.

[aregon]

crtclms, do you have any particular problem with me being here?

You are so getting me wrong, wouldn't hurt if you'd be more polite and loose the grandeur.

[Wooster]

aregon, are you trying to say that marketing has something to do with perceived desirability and therefore use/misuse potential and therefore more relationship to addiction?

I am having a hard time understanding what you are meaning and wanted to clarify.

[gizmo]

After reading aregon's replies, I too am having a hard time discerning what they are meaning to say. Perhaps if the poster reworded what they want to make a point on, we could continue this discussion in a more linear fashion.

To aregon - there have been hundreds of people come to CB over the years, assuming that they know what tolerance, dependency, and addiction to benzos are. And they are completely wrong. That's why we get so riled up when someone makes a seemingly blanket statement about these issues. Many people on this board use benzos responsibly for many years without addiction or increased tolerance. Dependence, yes, because when you take any type of mental med, your body becomes dependent on it to produce a chemical reaction in your brain to help you feel stable. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, and doctors deal with it in the same way they wean heart patients off beta blockers or anti-convulsants.

This is why we get a bit testy sometimes about blanket statements about benzos. Just because the media says they are "extremely addicting" does not make them so, and every assumption on this board that this is true is an insult to those of us who responsibly rely on benzos.

[aregon]

First of all what is addiction? Chronic use of a med (substance that our body considers it foreign) could be interpreted by some as addiction, even if the dosage is the same every day - you depend on it, dependent = addicted, might say some. In my language, for example, addictive is translated as habit-forming or that creates dependence.

Misuse of a substance might be interpreted as well as abuse, another form of addiction. My logic says that all benzo users are dependent, thou some of them take it by the book, some others misuse it. Basically, the only difference is the quantity as a function of time. Misusers graph is a zig-zag, while for responsible ones is a horizontal line. Even those who misuse psych meds have at least one reasonable reason, if their interest would be to get high would take a proper drug not a benzo. Surely, there are many others that have a real pleasure to overdose it.

As for branding, there are invested lots of money just because to make you buy that colored stuff over the gray one. You can't deny that branding means absolutely nothing and nothing at all when it comes to addiction. Why bother to invent the sonorous name "Xanax" when the chemists gave it already a name? Every visual and verbal identity of a product have a specific purpose, that unconsciously fires the desire of having it. Do you think the big pharma cares if you get addicted? Their real interest is selling their product, everything is about money.

[chimpmaster]

This is a pretty good definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction

[crtclms]

Did you read what Gizmo and Chimpmaster just wrote? Dependence is not the same as addiction. It doesn't matter that "some people say" that, they are wrong. There is a link explaining the difference between dependence and addiction pinned to this forum. Go read it.

Some people misuse every kind of medication. They are in the minority, and should not dictate what those of us who do not abuse drugs should have available.

Where are your links to those telling graphs? Graphs are a good way of supporting extraordinary claims.

What the fuck does that last paragraph mean? It is full to the brim with insulting misinformation. Please unpack it for me.

By the way, my father did research on a lot of the medications used on this board. He was able to do the research because of partnerships with NIMH and Big Pharma. He never earned over 100k a year in his life, and he retired in the mid 2000s. Pdocs are the worst paid specialty of medical specialties.

Are there problems with Big Pharma? No question. But I am assuming you believe that psych meds are necessary (though am beginning to doubt that is what you really believe). Big Pharma has its uses.

Yet another example of the sort of sweeping generalizations you make over and over.

And did you get that I said your theory about branding is bullshit? You raise anew all the deep questions that I already answered. If you don't like being condescended to, don't ask questions, then brush off the answers as if you don't understand.

P.S. I am allowed to lose my temper. Read the Crazy Rules. And please don't send me any more whiny PMs that duplicate things you have already posted on the forum. Yes, I know, I am so mean.

[humanoid]

This doesn't really contribute to the topic at hand, just a response to a previous post by aregon.

Seeing as you can't really select your own medication like you do your products at a store, I don't understand why you are pointing out marketing. I mean, I can't go to a pdoc after seeing a commercial or advert in a magazine for say Seroquel, and demand they prescribe it. They could consider it and then agree to it if appropriate, but it's not really the patient's direct choice what they get. Also, maybe it's just me, but I've never seen any benzo advertised/marketed anywhere, only anti-depressants and AAPs that they are marketing as treatment for depression (abilify, seroquel). Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places? I thought I would mention that anyway. I don't personally see the point in advertising any medication in the media.

Also, maybe you are talking about those on a daily dosing, but I take a benzo as needed and have never had any dependence or abuse issues with it. I know those that need it for daily use can run into problems, but it's not the case for everyone. I don't think dependence is equal to addiction, and it looks like others have already mentioned where you can read about the difference. Also don't see how packaging or any of that would have anything to do with someone's addiction to a med...at all, just don't see it.

[aregon]

To cut the fight I will just say that marketing is shit when it comes to addiction and/or dependance, the producer just waste ink and fine paper for the sake of beauty.

As for addiction and dependence I've found this: "Substance dependence, commonly called drug addiction, is a drug user's compulsive need to use controlled substances in order to function normally."

source: http://en.wikipedia....ance_dependence

[sonicwhite]

Ummmm valium made me angry but everybodies different. You know valium has a worser rep then xanax and klonopin, If the ativan works for you I would just keep that. I told me doc for him aND HIM ALONE IF HE WANTED TO SWITCH M,E BACK TO KLONOPIN HE CAN CUZ i TAKE XANAX AND HIS SECERATERIES where like if the shoe feets where it. sorry for the caps.

[crtclms]

Yes, doctors use wikipedia as a source constantly. It is so completely reliable about medication, too, because it is written by specialists. Oh wait, neither of those things is true.

Are you implying all the long time users of benzos, who have had no changes in dose, and are not as interested in pursuing a highs as you seem to be, are compulsive? Because not only is that wrong, it is offensive.

What medical background do you have?

And how many times do we have to explain that there is a difference between physical dependence and addiction? Did you even read any of the pins or links provided to you?

Peer reviewed, or it isn't relevant.

[Indigo 'n dye]

Yes, doctors use wikipedia as a source constantly. It is so completely reliable about medication, too, because it is written by specialists. Oh wait, neither of those things is true.

Are you implying all the long time users of benzos, who have had no changes in dose, and are not as interested in pursuing a highs as you seem to be, are compulsive? Because not only is that wrong, it is offensive.

What medical background do you have?

And how many times do we have to explain that there is a difference between physical dependence and addiction? Did you even read any of the pins or links provided to you?

Peer reviewed, or it isn't relevant.

Sonicwhite, read and pay attention, please. I know that you are suffering, but yet both members and moderators respond to you in the same manner time after time. Pay attention, read the links posted for you, and cease and desist with your personal agenda.

[Mirazh]

IMHO, a huge variable in the question of Most Addictive Benzo is your own physiology, your neurochemistry. If a certain one just is Too Likeable for you, it's necessary to be honest with yourself and your docs about it. Solutions can be devised.

One thing about generics vs. brand name too is that sometimes, for some people, the slight differences in the additives from one company to the next can make a noticeable difference in the same med's efficacy. No idea if this holds true for benzos too but thought I'd toss it out there.

Oh, and while I loves to write out and say long-ass chemical names, there are times I don't and there are lots of people who prefer short names to reference. That is, I take clonazepam PRN, I am on divalproex, and I take methylphenidate XR... but I also often say k-pin, depakote (hell it's epival up here in Canadialand,) and concerta. Because it's easier! I do fine remembering chemical ames usually, but many people don't, a brand name is often much more easily recalled.