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I turned vego a couple of weeks ago. It's going quite good.  Still adjusting to eating a little differently.  I eat a lot of fruit/veges/nuts/beans/cereals etc anyhow.

Just wondering if anyone notices any changes in their mood because of vegetarianism...  or veganism. I'm not eating fish anymore, so I'm getting omega 3 from flaxseed oil instead.  I'm drinking nettle herb tea for my iron.  Eating free range eggs, and rennet free cheese.  I think I'm doing ok, just wondering how other crazy vegetarians manage their diets....

Tim

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hi there! i've been a vegetarian for 3 years now, and i've been crazy even longer. i did it for moral reasons, the health stuff was just a nice add-on.

i never really noticed a change in my mood, but that's probably because i was batshit crazy and unmedicated when i made the switch.

feel free to pm me if you ever want some yummy veggie recipes or anything like that.

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hi there! i've been a vegetarian for 3 years now, and i've been crazy even longer. i did it for moral reasons, the health stuff was just a nice add-on.

i never really noticed a change in my mood, but that's probably because i was batshit crazy and unmedicated when i made the switch.

feel free to pm me if you ever want some yummy veggie recipes or anything like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks! I will pm you as I am just getting into new recipes.

I did it mainly for moral reasons as well.  The things I've seen growing up around farms, and through video footage just guts me.  I just finished watching "meet your meat". Could never go back...

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I've been vegetarian about 10 years, and was mostly veg for 4 or 5 before that. I do eat eggs, milk, and cheese (or at least the ones my meds agree with). My partner is mostly vegetarian. We keep our house vegetarian, but she does eat meat, usually chicken, when eating out or at her office.

I have moral reasons for it, of course, but also practical ones. I noticed that the less meat I ate, the better and healthier I felt. When I finally gave up on meat entirely, I really did feel better about myself and it improved my physical health. I don't know that it's had much effect on my mental health, but my pdoc knows about it and has no trouble with it.

One thing I have discovered is that on the rare occasion I do have a bit of meat, it does not agree with my digestion at all. I have a friend who has a similar experience.

I try to keep as varied a diet as I can. I take a calcium supplement and a multi-vitamin/mineral with iron, and all my psych meds, but don't otherwise worry about supplements.

If you want the names of some good vegetarian cook books -- especially easy/quick recipes -- just let me know.

Fiona

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I've been a vegetarian for just about 5 years now, and I haven't eaten any red meat in 10.  I do eat milk, cheese, and eggs. 

I do it purely out of moral reasons.  I felt better after I stopped eating meat, physically.  More energy, sick less often, etc. 

I have a horrible diet and mainly subsist on veggie burgers and pasta.  So don't take any dietary advice from me. 

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I've been a vegetabletarian since 2000.  I don't eat meat and generally wonder why people think fish and/or chicken isn't meat.  I'm not a moral vegetarian.

My health drastically changed with vegeteraianism - i suddenly had a working immune system.  I will never go back, as i love the way vegetarian food tastes.  Meaty food just tastes like meat.

One day, when i'm settled, a little richer, and a little more enthusiastic i'll probably go vegan.  butter, cheese, and yogourt are the last hod-outs.

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I am a happy happy vegan, but also a new one.  I started in October.  Prior to that, I rarely ate any obvious animal products, but now I am a label reading junkie.  I think it's too soon to tell whether or not this is having any positive health benefits, though I'm optimistic.  At the very least, this keeps me from binging on cookies at my evil workplace. 

My reasons for veganism are threefold.  One is the moral issue of animal cruelty, which bothers me under any circumstance but is truly atrocious in modern megafarms and slaughterhouses.  The second is a matter of conservation:  in a world alleged to be running out of farmland, why the hell are we feeding obscene amounts of grains to animals for so little nutritional return?  Relying solely on plant sources dramatically slashes the amount of land required to feed me.  And thirdly, health.  I did once go vegan for six months before half-assedness and poverty dissuaded me.  I felt wonderful. 

I have no money now -- my nutrients come mainly from the generosity and charity of others -- but I still intend to hold to my convictions unless my health becomes seriously endngered.  This leads to the predictable awkward situations -- eating three people's salads when the kitchen prepares a supposedly veg meal with rennet cheese (last year they served fish, so they're improving) -- but I feel strongly about this. 

I'm just getting a wee bit tired of having to defend my dietary convictions to the world at large.  Even sitting at the freaking campfire,  I still end up having to give a mini lecture on why I believe in veganism, yet not sound preachy lest I be taken for some crazed proselyte.  Why must I present my case?  Because I wouldn't take a fun-size Oh Henry.  *sigh*

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i'm a quasi-vegetarian, and have been so for five years now. i go back and forth with some regularity, as various life-issues compel me -- travelling; moving to a country where being vegetarian's financially or practically impossible; moving back home, where i don't buy the food myself and haven't the energy to cook both a vegetarian and an omnivorous meal each day; being broke and subsisting on free chicken wings down the local pub -- or when i get lazy, because i have lots of stupid food allergies that make the vegetarian life challenging at times (i'm allergic to soy and have recurring intolerances to high-salicitate foods - which includes most all veggies, alas. i could never hack being vegan, even if i'd like to.)

i find often that when i go strictly vegetarian, i get sick easily and have trouble healing. this limits me a bit. i never go vegetarian solely for moral reasons, since i genuinely prefer not eating meat, but i don't really like the idea of eating meat, either. i'd like to find some workable dietary solution, but i'll probably always be in vague veggie limbo.

since i do periodically eat meat, i find i can go back and forth with relative ease, though red meat often upsets my digestion. on the occasions i eat meat, it's usually sashimi, because i find it so hard to give up. (only certain fishies, though. most of them are my friends - not food.)

keeping strictly vegetarian for any period of time longer three months or so often means digestive nastiness if you do go suddenly back to meat-eating, be advised.

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I'm no vegetarian gourmet either Becca, but I have found a couple of easy and yummy recipes.

Try this:

Vegetarian Tacos - use veggie ground round (mexican flavour if you can find it), microwave with a little water and chili powder. 

Fill taco shells with ground round, chopped tomatos, lettuce, salsa, chedder and sour cream.

Super yummy and pretty healthy.

Dee

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I am a fallen vegetarian.  Back in the day when I was a simple herbivore I didn't notice any changes to my mental health as opposed to the current omnivore me.

I still love (and sometimes prefer) vegetarian cuisine though.  Absolutely. 

Karen

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Yes, eight years and still going strong. Can't really remember my moods eight years ago. Was only ten years old then! I wasn't a happy kid, I know that though. I try to eat lots of lenses and beans to get my protein. Takes a multivitamin every day. But I do take fish oil to get my Omega-3, the only non-vegeterian thing I eat.

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I turned vego a couple of weeks ago. It's going quite good.  Still adjusting to eating a little differently.  I eat a lot of fruit/veges/nuts/beans/cereals etc anyhow.

Just wondering if anyone notices any changes in their mood because of vegetarianism...  or veganism. I'm not eating fish anymore, so I'm getting omega 3 from flaxseed oil instead.  I'm drinking nettle herb tea for my iron.  Eating free range eggs, and rennet free cheese.  I think I'm doing ok, just wondering how other crazy vegetarians manage their diets....

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

flaxseed is good stuff for omega-3s... i dont eat the eggs but i get a lot of cheese (pizza! haha)

once in a while ill eat fish so im not a real vegetarian! oh well

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It's really cool that there are so many vegos here. It's all about moral reasons for me right now.  After watching a few docos on animal cruelty and factory farming yesterday I'm actually feeling quite down!  I didn't sleep well last night and the images keep popping up in my head.. very disturbing.  I'm going to ban myself from watching any more.  I know what goes on, don't need to bash myself with it and get depressed.

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This isn't quite right for food -- but I'm curious. How many of us avoid animal products like leather?

I generally can't afford actual leather shoes, but I admit that I own them. I never buy anything in leather/whatever that I can reasonably obtain an alternative to. I don't go around the block fifteen ways to avoid things because I just don't have the money and the time.

I don't object too much to meat-eating people using leather. My pdoc/therp has leather chairs and couch, but since he actually eats meat it seems ok -- making efficient use of the animals.

Still, I'd prefer a world of vegetarians!

Fiona

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The second is a matter of conservation:  in a world alleged to be running out of farmland, why the hell are we feeding obscene amounts of grains to animals for so little nutritional return?  Relying solely on plant sources dramatically slashes the amount of land required to feed me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've taught environmental conservation a couple of times, and each time my class has accused me of trying to make them all vegetarians (I did have a couple of successes!).

One of the things I learned is that every step reduces yield by a factor of 10. So, if you take 100 'pounds' of grain and feed it to a cow, the cow gets about 10 'pounds' worth of 'value' from it. Then when you feed the cow to a person, the person gets about 1 'pound' worth of 'value.' Whereas if we ate the 100 'pounds' in the first place, we'd get that 10 'pounds' of 'value' for ourselves!

If you want more precise terms, I can actually get up from my desk, find the text, and look it up for you.

Nonetheless, I find it an extremely compelling reason for vegetarianism.

Fiona

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This isn't quite right for food -- but I'm curious. How many of us avoid animal products like leather?

I generally can't afford actual leather shoes, but I admit that I own them. I never buy anything in leather/whatever that I can reasonably obtain an alternative to. I don't go around the block fifteen ways to avoid things because I just don't have the money and the time.

I don't object too much to meat-eating people using leather. My pdoc/therp has leather chairs and couch, but since he actually eats meat it seems ok -- making efficient use of the animals.

Still, I'd prefer a world of vegetarians!

Fiona

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I looked around my bedroom yesterday and saw leather in my boots, and my belts.  Never really looked at it *that way* before.

What has disturbed me quite a bit is animal testing involving drugs, particularly the ones I am on.  From what I've read anti-convulsants are fed to animals, such as rats and monkeys, and either electric shocks to the brain, or strobe lights close to their eyes, are used to try and induce a seizure to test the effectiveness of the drug. 

It's one of the most horrible things I think I've ever heard.

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woody harrelson's movie "Go Further" is a really good movie re veganism.  It's a good movie all around, but especially for vegetarians and vegans.

Leather is a by product: we don't kill animals for their leather.  It's actually good conservation to use leather.  To use alternatives is bad for the environment since something new has to be created.

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Leather is a by product: we don't kill animals for their leather.  It's actually good conservation to use leather.  To use alternatives is bad for the environment since something new has to be created.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is more or less a by-product depending on the country, circumstances, and the age of the animal, but the incentive to kill is still there considering leather makes a lot of people very very rich!  From what I have read the process of gaining the skin for leather is not good considering some animals are skinned whilst still alive.  A lot of this goes in China, where there are little or no regulations for animal welfare.  It is also not true that leather is better for the environment, as some pretty nasty chemicals are used to tan the leather that have also been associated with cancer in humans.

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still not the page i was trying to find - the one i'm thinking of is even more condemning - but here's a history of vinyl, the real nasty stuff resulting from its production, and the even nastier attempts on the part of its manufacturers to keep their asses from getting sued.

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What has disturbed me quite a bit is animal testing involving drugs, particularly the ones I am on.  From what I've read anti-convulsants are fed to animals, such as rats and monkeys, and either electric shocks to the brain, or strobe lights close to their eyes, are used to try and induce a seizure to test the effectiveness of the drug. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's also a big difference between what can only be done by animal research and what can be done without it -- gratuitous animal research and necessary. You can administer a compound, test behavior, then examine brain biology in a rat -- you can't do that in people.

Academic labs treat their animals extremely well, at least the successful ones do. The rats and mice are handled compassionately, absolutely nothing is done that would cause distress to the animal that is not absolutely necessary for the experimental protocol. And few protocols require causing severe distress to the animals (even our meds cause us some distress -- side effects). There are ethics review boards in place to examine these things in advance.

I know something about this because my partner does academic neuroscience research on mice and rats. Someday, somewhere down the line, the stuff she's working on now will help kids with fetal alcohol syndrome. And there's no way to get the data except the mice and the rats.

Fiona

(who deals with people conveniently dead before I get to them)

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What has disturbed me quite a bit is animal testing involving drugs, particularly the ones I am on.  From what I've read anti-convulsants are fed to animals, such as rats and monkeys, and either electric shocks to the brain, or strobe lights close to their eyes, are used to try and induce a seizure to test the effectiveness of the drug. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Academic labs treat their animals extremely well, at least the successful ones do. The rats and mice are handled compassionately, absolutely nothing is done that would cause distress to the animal that is not absolutely necessary for the experimental protocol. And few protocols require causing severe distress to the animals (even our meds cause us some distress -- side effects). There are ethics review boards in place to examine these things in advance.

Fiona

(who deals with people conveniently dead before I get to them)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll give you a link to some recent footage of what goes on in a lab, in Virginia, where monkeys are used in drug testing for the major drug development company "Covance".  It may just be fitting a protocol, but looking at this they are obviously extremely distressed.  The footage speaks for itself.  I guess I have to make a warning because it is very disturbing.

  http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?vi...r=wm&speed=_med

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I'll give you a link to some recent footage of what goes on in a lab, in Virginia, where monkeys are used in drug testing for the major drug development company "Covance".  It may just be fitting a protocol, but looking at this they are obviously extremely distressed.  The footage speaks for itself.  I guess I have to make a warning because it is very disturbing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There can be quite a difference between commercial labs and academic labs. Most academic labs are involved in much more basic research. Few, if any, academic labs are testing medications.

The real questions are: are you willing to have the testing done on people? Are you willing to go without this drug or any others?

The research my partner does can't be done on people. Without it, though, there are a lot of things about fetal alcohol syndrome that are simply not going to be known and ultimately things that could help these kids won't be available. Some animal research is a necessary "evil."

I know what goes on in her lab, I've been there. Besides, if it weren't for the research, those rats and mice would never have been born.

Fiona

{I've said my piece, and we're veering off-topic here}

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Despite being a vegan, I still eat honey and I still own a few products made from animal products.  When these items have worn out, I intend to replace them with more animal-friendly alternatives, but there's no sense in wasting a perfectly good pair of boots.  (As for belts and things, I'm quite the fan of hemp.)

Veganism is part of a small-footprint philosophy.  The idea is to live as best we can while inflicting the least amount of damage on the environment.  There will always be trade-offs.  I continue to take my meds, even though they were once tested on animals.  I continue to wear my leather boots, because it's better for them to have been worn to uselessness than to toss them into the landfill prematurely over my beliefs.  I will never be a perfect vegan, but I will do whatever I feel is needful.

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There can be quite a difference between commercial labs and academic labs. Most academic labs are involved in much more basic research. Few, if any, academic labs are testing medications.

The real questions are: are you willing to have the testing done on people? Are you willing to go without this drug or any others?

The research my partner does can't be done on people. Without it, though, there are a lot of things about fetal alcohol syndrome that are simply not going to be known and ultimately things that could help these kids won't be available. Some animal research is a necessary "evil."

I know what goes on in her lab, I've been there. Besides, if it weren't for the research, those rats and mice would never have been born.

Fiona

{I've said my piece, and we're veering off-topic here}

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can see that academic labs are less involved in testing on animals.  I am talking broadly about labs that test drugs on animals, in particular primates.  Your partner's lab sound much less harsh... unfortunately many labs aren't the same.

There are problems in testing on animals, as it doesn't always work.  There are many cases where drugs have been tested on animals with no problems that have gone on to be used by humans with disastrous results, including some anti-depressants that were soon pulled off the shelf after enormous neurological problems.  Thalidomide was tested on a wide variety of animals; most had no side effects; some had side effects, but they went with the data on animals that had no side effects.  It didn't work, and 1000s of babies were born deformed... also in the second generation.  There are obviously many other cases.

I think your questions are good ones... what do we test on? I don't think there's any great answer to that, other than I think there needs to be more investment into developing alternatives.  There have been advances in test tube studies on human tissue and that has replaced some animal testing, along with more use of stats. Personally, I don't think I can go without the drugs I am on, as unpleasant as I feel about it.  I would like too! ...for a variety of reasons.  I guess that unpleasantness is driving me to think about the future, and what changes can be made.

I think other important questions to ask are: Does human life have greater value than animal life, or do animals have as much right to be here as us?  Who or what gives us the right to take away the freedom of an animal and violate its body?  Just because we can do it, does that mean we *should* do it?  Also, does animal testing protect the pharmaceutical company or the consumer?

I do accept that there is a multitude of "necessary evils" in this world.  I've have ranted about them in other topics too. ;) But where do we go from there?  Looking at the big picture, using animals in testing only reinforces the fact that the way we as humans organise ourselves to live on this planet has gone horribly wrong.  It sits nicely along side the irreversable environmental abuse and destruction.  A fellow vego sent me a quote the other day by the nobel prize playwright George Bernard Shaw who says, "If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"

I agree, this has veered off topic.  I might just start this up again in a more appropriate place, because I think it's an important topic to discuss. 

Cheers,

Tim

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There are problems in testing on animals, as it doesn't always work.  There are many cases where drugs have been tested on animals with no problems that have gone on to be used by humans with disastrous results,

OK -- one more --- One of the biggest problems with testing is that until recently drug testing was done only on men. Can't figure out possible birth defects or differential effects if all the tests were on white men.

I agree, this has veered off topic.  I might just start this up again in a more appropriate place, because I think it's an important topic to discuss. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you do, let me know where.

Veering back towards the topic -- what's your current favorite recipe?

Fiona

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I, personally, don't own anything leather.  I also don't buy toiletries/etc that are tested on animals.  I obviously buy meds that are tested on animals, but at least that has some sort of necessity to it.  There's no reason to keep rubbing Clairol in a monkey's eyes.

But I'm pretty strict about it- I haven't had my measles booster vaccination because I somehow missed it as a kid and found out that there is gelatin in vaccinations.  I figure measles is an acceptable risk. ;)

I'm definitely not perfect, though. I have a lot of guilt over the fact that some of my meds have gelatin in them.  It was a big problem when I was first prescribed Cymbalta.  It seems somewhat superfluous to mess with a med combination that works to try and find a tablet...

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There are problems in testing on animals, as it doesn't always work.  There are many cases where drugs have been tested on animals with no problems that have gone on to be used by humans with disastrous results,

OK -- one more --- One of the biggest problems with testing is that until recently drug testing was done only on men. Can't figure out possible birth defects or differential effects if all the tests were on white men.

I agree, this has veered off topic.  I might just start this up again in a more appropriate place, because I think it's an important topic to discuss. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you do, let me know where.

Veering back towards the topic -- what's your current favorite recipe?

Fiona

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Well, I actually met a man about four days ago, and we're kinda seeing each other.  He's a bad cook, so I'm going to take over his kitchen in a couple of days, so being the new vege I need to work out what I'm going to cook!  I think most of my "favourite" recipes have involved meat.  I do love curries, and there's a lot you can do with vege in those.  I've been looking at cook books today and there is a beautiful blue cheese roulade I would love to cook... Italian roast peppers... Yam fritters... the pictures look good.  Wonder if I can make an impression.  ;) I do love a day in the kitchen... what's your favourite?

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Well, I actually met a man about four days ago, and we're kinda seeing each other. 

Yay for you!

He's a bad cook, so I'm going to take over his kitchen in a couple of days,
I am a dreadful cook. Last month when my partner was away I managed to screw up boxed macaroni and cheese (hint: don't use vanilla soymilk for the milk), and set off the smoke detector trying to cook something that just required warming in a pan. Next time she's away I'm going to stick to cereal, toast, and frozen dinners! Oddly, I'm good at baking -- breads, cakes, and such.

I've been looking at cook books today and there is a beautiful blue cheese roulade I would love to cook... Italian roast peppers... Yam fritters... the pictures look good.  Wonder if I can make an impression.  ;) I do love a day in the kitchen... what's your favourite?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah -- my partner cooks very well. Believe me that you can make quite an impression with the right meal. Depending on how badly your new guy cooks and how long it's been since he's had someone else's, it might not take much. The Yam fritters sound good, and the roast peppers.

I have a special fondness for a Morroccan-style dish, it's got tomato and golden raisins over cous-cous. Very nice.

Now I'm thinking about tonight's dinner!

Fiona

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I'm vegan. I've been vegan for about 7 years (i'm 27) and have been a vegetarian since i was 7. So I haven't had meat for 20 years.

No problem! I guess when you're used to it it is easy. I think food with dairy is disgusting. Think of what is in it! Think of the suffering the animals endure!

Meat and dairy are NOT necessary and NOT harmless. Those are feeling creatures and we need to respect their lives and bodies.

I am obviously against all forms of animal research, even if it is psych drugs. I can't imagine that with all the creativity of the pharm. companies and the PROFITS they make that they can't come up with even better ways to test and develop their drugs. They are just lazy and stupid!

So-

Don't eat meat

Don't eat dairy

Don't buy stuff made from animals if you can help it (overboard is overboard, but be sensitive!) And do consider the vinyl vs. leather issue. it is a real issue. and wool- think about it and research it.

Respect

Peace

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No problem! I guess when you're used to it it is easy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true. The MAOI diet is much the same, I'm so used to watching for the forbidden foods that it doesn't bother me or panic me anymore -- it's just natural. Of course, I think being vegetarian made it easier to adapt to a new set of things to watch out for.

It's also easier while living in a big city, I suspect both vegetarian and MAOI is going to be a bit more of a challenge when I visit my parents in small-town midwest at Christmas. Especially so since my mom has a tendency to be offended when I don't want to eat something she's cooked -- she once called me an "intellectual snob" because I wouldn't eat a hamburger.

Fiona

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I'm vegan. I've been vegan for about 7 years (i'm 27) and have been a vegetarian since i was 7. So I haven't had meat for 20 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is it you were vegetarian at 7? Are your parents vegetarian then? What motivated the shift to being vegan?

So, what's your current favorite food/recipe?

Fiona

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try this on the new man hollow log.

a good vege lasagna always goes over well.

Make a red sauce using a few cans tomatoes, some tomato paste, basil, oregano, a little cracked pepper and a bay leaf.  skip the salt and add a cube or two of vege and/or herb stock.  Add broccoli, carrots, etc. Fry some mushrooms and onions/leeks and add.  Make it thick.

cook the noodles.  Put thin layer of olive oil on bottom.  Layer of noodles, layer of red sauce, layer of noodles, layer of cootage cheese, layer of mozza, layer of noodles, layer of red sauce, laye of noodles, layer of cottage chesse, layer of mozza, layer of noodles, layer of mozza.

bake until yummy.

[if you hate cottage cheese you can substitute ricotta)

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try this on the new man hollow log.

a good vege lasagna always goes over well.

Make a red sauce using a few cans tomatoes, some tomato paste, basil, oregano, a little cracked pepper and a bay leaf.  skip the salt and add a cube or two of vege and/or herb stock.  Add broccoli, carrots, etc. Fry some mushrooms and onions/leeks and add.  Make it thick.

cook the noodles.  Put thin layer of olive oil on bottom.  Layer of noodles, layer of red sauce, layer of noodles, layer of cootage cheese, layer of mozza, layer of noodles, layer of red sauce, laye of noodles, layer of cottage chesse, layer of mozza, layer of noodles, layer of mozza.

bake until yummy.

[if you hate cottage cheese you can substitute ricotta)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the flying spaghetti monster and His noodly appendage would be quite pleased!!  ;)

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No problem! I guess when you're used to it it is easy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Especially so since my mom has a tendency to be offended when I don't want to eat something she's cooked -- she once called me an "intellectual snob" because I wouldn't eat a hamburger.

Fiona

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, when did intellectual ability have anything to do with vegetarianism? Weird. But, some people do get all funny when they find out you don't eat meat, and they have to wheel out the "special food" for you.  My ma and pa who live in the country, grew up on farms, and worked on farms, and they are still the "meat and 3 veg" kinda people.  That might be a difficult encounter next time I go for dinner at their place! I don't think they would have met many vegetarians.

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try this on the new man hollow log.

a good vege lasagna always goes over well.

Make a red sauce using a few cans tomatoes, some tomato paste, basil, oregano, a little cracked pepper and a bay leaf.  skip the salt and add a cube or two of vege and/or herb stock.  Add broccoli, carrots, etc. Fry some mushrooms and onions/leeks and add.  Make it thick.

cook the noodles.  Put thin layer of olive oil on bottom.  Layer of noodles, layer of red sauce, layer of noodles, layer of cootage cheese, layer of mozza, layer of noodles, layer of red sauce, laye of noodles, layer of cottage chesse, layer of mozza, layer of noodles, layer of mozza.

bake until yummy.

[if you hate cottage cheese you can substitute ricotta)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That looks great Pasta... I reckon I will do that sometime this week...

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Heeeeeee....  Some friends today wanted to go to Subway.  They insisted I come.  So I went... and concluded I didn't want my friends to buy me a $5 mess of soapy-tasting vegetables, and had a bottle of V8 for lunch.  Even their wheat bread apparently (at this location only?) has some sort of weird egg glaze, and of course every single thing on the menu includes meat and/or cheese.  *sigh* 

I've tried explaining to them that my diet isn't really all that resctrictive, but with days like this, it's rather hard to get them to believe me.  As soon as I can afford to prepare a big meal (I am really, REALLY broke), I need to have them over.  Cooking doesn't seem at all limited in my kitchen. 

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the flying spaghetti monster and His noodly appendage would be quite pleased!!  ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

aye me hearty, it's how we in the church of the flying spaghetti monster proselytise.  We endorse the eating of pasta and talking like a pirate.

unfortunately, i cannot eat my god because of the meatballs, so i'll convert to the church of the flying tempeh chili monster when it's established.

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Ah, when did intellectual ability have anything to do with vegetarianism? Weird. But, some people do get all funny when they find out you don't eat meat, and they have to wheel out the "special food" for you.  My ma and pa who live in the country, grew up on farms, and worked on farms, and they are still the "meat and 3 veg" kinda people.  That might be a difficult encounter next time I go for dinner at their place! I don't think they would have met many vegetarians.

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I had even tried to provide alternative food for myself!

That was one of the first times I'd visited them after starting grad school at a major university "back East" as my mom put it, and I think she was having some serious issues about that of her own.

I have a friend whose eating habits are like your parents, though she goes more to starch than veg, and finding restaurants where we can both eat happily can be a challenge.

Fiona

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Tangentially related to the topic at hand, I've just come across the Earth Day ecological footprint quiz, which gives you a rough idea of how many planets would be required to sustain a global population in which everyone consumed as much/little as you.  Everything on the quiz counts towards your total score, obviously, but I was particularly struck by the food questions.  By changing my answer from "locally produced/unpackaged" foods to "heavily packaged" (or whatever the wording was), my score rose by a full half-planet.  Interesting indeed. 

*still a happy vegan, though wishing she had more money for food*

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Tangentially related to the topic at hand, I've just come across the Earth Day ecological footprint quiz, which gives you a rough idea of how many planets would be required to sustain a global population in which everyone consumed as much/little as you.  Everything on the quiz counts towards your total score, obviously, but I was particularly struck by the food questions.  By changing my answer from "locally produced/unpackaged" foods to "heavily packaged" (or whatever the wording was), my score rose by a full half-planet.  Interesting indeed. 

*still a happy vegan, though wishing she had more money for food*

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If everyone lived like me then we would need 2.8 planet earths.  Shame on me!!

Seriously that's given me somethin to think about....

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Okay, how do you deal with this:

You turn down, say, chocolate and continue eating your vegan meal.

Someone else asks you why.

You tactfully explain why. 

They ARGUE WITH YOU. 

I'm not giving people the complete rundown on why I think eating meat is stupendously wasteful, unethical, et cetera.  I'm not guilt-tripping people about slaughterhouses and fish farms.  I'm not breaking out the PETA-style scare tactics about hormones and genetic manipulation.  I'm just telling them why my lunch doesn't have pig in it, and I STILL get accosted by some vehement one-sided debate setting out to prove that eating animals is okay after all.  JUST LET ME EAT MY LUNCH, DAMMIT. 

Why does food have to be political?  I'd like a break from politics every now and again.

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Why does food have to be political?  I'd like a break from politics every now and again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know. I agree, though, it's a pain!

I just refuse to discuss it -- I say something like "It's my choice not to eat meat (animal products, whatever), just as it's your choice to do so." And keep talking about other things. If they persist, I sometimes say, "It's a private matter, I prefer not to talk about it."

I've also found, "I just feel healthier as a vegetarian" useful. That one is hard for most people to argue with due to the health craze.

Like other things in my life, I try to handle it as a dry obvious fact. Nothing unusual. "Grass is green. Sky is blue. Fiona is lesbian and vegetarian." It's just a fact of the world. It may help that I don't care what people with me eat, except that we don't have meat in our house.

Fiona

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Well, I think the inevitable happened... decided a couple of hours ago that dairy and eggs have to go also.. just can't do it! Thought I should go the whole hog...parden the pun ...so it is looking like a vegan diet for me.

I just got back from the supermarket, where I kinda freaked at all the things I won't be eating anymore.  Was a very weird experience!  Even some soy products have some kind of dairy product in them!  What is with that?!

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you're quite lucky.  i think it's easier to be vegan in Australia than a lot of places.  For the life of me i cannot find nutmeat here.  Not sure i like nutmeat, but the SO wants to try it.

good luck with it...

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Yeah, you could be right, there are a lot of food alternatives here... there is a big range of meat alternatives like nut meat in every supermarket... maybe I could send you some ;-)  They even do vege hot dogs, and vege bacon and ham... it's kinda wrong when u think about it, as if you are vege would u want to eat something that looked like meat? hmmm. 

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i finally tried tofurky - in sausage form.  oh baby was it vile.  tasted like ass.  these pretend meats i don't like.  i eat vege hot dogs and burgers, but not if they taste like hot dogs and burgers.  i live in a big progressive city, so got lots of choice.  But when i moved here from australia, i found out how good i had it there.  Canada has caught up, but the US is still in the dark ages in so many places.

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i finally tried tofurky - in sausage form.  oh baby was it vile.  tasted like ass.  these pretend meats i don't like.  i eat vege hot dogs and burgers, but not if they taste like hot dogs and burgers.  i live in a big progressive city, so got lots of choice.  But when i moved here from australia, i found out how good i had it there.  Canada has caught up, but the US is still in the dark ages in so many places.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

been going the soy cheese tonight, with chives... it's not too bad.

where were you living in australia? ...and what were you doing?

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Neat link, lmnop! The world would need 2.2 planets to support my lifestyle.

I'm not vege but am more than happy to accommodate if a vegetarian comes to my house for dinner. I usually end up liking whatever we put together.

This thread's given me a lot to think about.

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hmmm, I've been thinking about something... abortion... what do you all think about it?  I know it's usuallly a dead end argument for those either for or against... but it's challenging me atm.

Now I'm going down the path to veganism it's really making me think about a lot of things, I don't know.. I'm seriously a pro-choice kinda guy, all for the mother choosing, but thinking about the rights of animals is making me think about the rights of humans, including those that aren't born... hmm... it's a difficult one.  When I think of right-to-lifers I almost gag... and the picketing (and occasional bombing) of abortion clinics.  What are your thoughts?

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i lived in brisvegas for several years.  Basically i was wasting my life with the help of liquor, women, and Lano & Woodley.

I don't think animals have rights.  Eating them is fine.  I think we have an obligation not to engage in cruel and exploitive behaviour in their death.  We're omnivores, but we shouldn't casually kill or be cruel.

As for abortion, consciousness is not achieved until birth, if not several months after.  if abortion is muder, deciding not to have a baby is equally murder.  Just because you have the equipment doesn't mean you have to use it, and just because the process has started doesn't mean you have to finish it.  Once the process is complete, live and let live.

Besides, our right to life is inviolable.  Since carrying a pregnancy to term can kill, there is no obligation to do so nor right to expect it. 

It's too bad that although the majority of Americans is pro choice, Roe v. Wade will soon disappear.  Just so you know, if abortion is outlawed the crime rate will skyrocket.  I guarantee this as a scientist and criminologist.

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i lived in brisvegas for several years.  Basically i was wasting my life with the help of liquor, women, and Lano & Woodley.

I don't think animals have rights.  Eating them is fine.  I think we have an obligation not to engage in cruel and exploitive behaviour in their death.  We're omnivores, but we shouldn't casually kill or be cruel.

As for abortion, consciousness is not achieved until birth, if not several months after.  if abortion is muder, deciding not to have a baby is equally murder.  Just because you have the equipment doesn't mean you have to use it, and just because the process has started doesn't mean you have to finish it.  Once the process is complete, live and let live.

Besides, our right to life is inviolable.  Since carrying a pregnancy to term can kill, there is no obligation to do so nor right to expect it. 

It's too bad that although the majority of Americans is pro choice, Roe v. Wade will soon disappear.  Just so you know, if abortion is outlawed the crime rate will skyrocket.  I guarantee this as a scientist and criminologist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Never been to Brisbane.. travelled around it I think... been to the gold coast a few times... that place is kinda scary... it's like, so where is the culture?  ...besides tragic souvenir shops?  Looking to go to Byron Bay in Feb.. never been.

Re animal rights.  I think it's hard to make the distinction between humans and animals.  Who gives us the right to *own* animals, in terms of human consumption?  Do we own them any more that we own ourselves?  Do we own ourselves?  We believe we do, but no I don't think so.  We can empathise with our dogs or cats when we see they are in pain, but sheep, cows, and pigs are routinely slaughtered, and many cases are in pain before we eat them.... but we disconnect from that.  Pigs are as intelligent as dogs! I know the chickens sold at the supermarket and KFC down the road lived only a very short life pumped up with growth hormones to the point where many of them probably couldn't walk before being killed.  Anyway, I won't go on and on... but that's my opinion. Humans aren't *that* special... that's what i'm trying to say. ;)

I'm gonna have to think about abortion some more... i can't see myself swaying from pro-choice... but it's rattling in my head.  How would the crime rate go up?  I'm trying to join the dots....

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Pigs are as intelligent as dogs!
HELL YEAH! (sorry - just had to!)

I'm with Pasta - eating meat is not a moral issue for me in it's essence - as I'm quite certain the chickens I eat would peck away at my dead flesh if they found my leftovers after have been slaughtered by a higher carnivore/omnivore. Just sayin'. Though it is important to not be capricious and greedy, which is really the bigger problem, to me. I tink everything needs balance, leastways as much as possible.

I eat vegetarian and vegan often, just because I am interested in GOOD health and GOOD food, but I really do enjoy all flavors of meat on the grill from time to time and some meats, chicken and turkey in particular - are very efficient protein sources that are hard to match with veggie methods. Otherwise, I look for items in their natural state - without a lot of processing or special packaging - becasue the processing and additives, at least, tends to make even perfectly healthy foods poisoous - like hydrogenated fats, for instance. Hydrogenation makes everything stick together - so it is attractive and convenient to the consumer - but guess what else it sticks to? Your arteries!

Vegetarian and vegan dishes can be made to provide all essential nutrients and taste real swell, but it is more of a balancing act/scientific enterprise - sometimes, I just want the simplicity of chicken breast and vegetables and be done with it.

Secret ingredients (aside from creating complete protiens through multiple ingredients): Citrus/vinegar/tamari, turmeric, molasses, crushed red pepper, olive ail and all the aromatic vegetables you can muster: garlic, leeks, ginger (fresh), onion, scallions, peppers, celery etc...). the most passive little vegetable or bean curd product gets up and runs around the room when paired with some combination of these. Your broccoli just may perform and interpretive dance on the plate!

On Abortion (correct me if I'm wrong, Criminologist Pasta):

If criminalized, crime rate would necessarily go up because abortions, being an ancient tradition (the roman prostitutes did it with poisonous herbs, very carefully), would not stop. that's the really easy one - each abortion would be a crime statistic.

Further, if abortion was not available to poor women/families, additional economic stressors would be imposed upon said women/families - increasing the likelihood of several specific types of crime:

Domestic Violence/Abuse - because high stress paired with deprivation (more kids, less for each family member) tends to set up situations where violence is more likely, though arguably some folks is 'jes violent by nature

Property: Because the human impulse to eat and provide is stronger than the human impulse to play by the rules (law of the jungle) - a poor man will steal a rich man's bread if he's hungry, without much of a backward glance

Robbery: Because if you lack enough resources and have no socially acceptable way to obtain them, one would easily lose the inhibition that keeps us from snatching other people's things away post-8 years old. We can just get guns easier after 8.

Drug/Vice/Prostitution: For the more entreprenurial individual - a way to not only meet pressing immediate needs, but if savvily executed can lead to long term build-up of resources

Of course, all these things exist now and will into eternity. But if you had a bunch more stressed out families with too few resources to feed themselves and their children, an increase in all of these is inevitable - simply because the biological impulse to survive - and thrive - is stronger than any societally imposed restrictions on behavior.

witness the difference in the US between crime/abortion rates during the 1990s - and 2000s -

1990s: Better sex education, abortion available, stronger middle class, reduced poverty, fairer distribution of resources - abortion and crime rates declined steadily.

2000s: Abstinence only sex education emphasised, abortion counseling not only discouraged but demonized, a shattered economy with greater and greater disparity in resource distribution - abortion and crime rising steadily.

Is abortion immoral? Maybe. It certainly isn't pleasant or without consequences both physical and psychic. But so are little white lies immoral, if considered out of context. In other words, relativism is not sinful - but rather very important. If society commits the greater sin of ignoring/worsening the plight of the poor and working class, then it invites a certain number of "sins of necessity" to be commited by those disenfranchised.

Jusy my thoughts on the matter.

pigs

PS: I need 2.7 planets - even though I use half the acreage of the average american. Modern society makes efficient use of resources extremely difficult.

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i lived in byron bay for a brief moment in time. weird, but fun.  Mullimbimby makes byron look normal though

you asked:

you can read a rather good book called freakonomics for part of the argument re crime and abortion.  it's a really good, fun, little book.

basically, its all a moral doozy and you may not like the implications.  rich families will always have access to abortion, legal or not.  rich families also have better access to birth control.  poor families do not.  Aborted foetuses are UNWANTED.  should these foetuses become children, their unwantedness may not change.  Poor parents with unwanted children leads to abuse, neglect, etc.  Maybe their is a reason the family is poor.  Low intelligence?  Biological defects?  Mental Illness?  This is passed on to children, including other problems like foetal alchol syndrome, foetal alcohol effects, malnutrition, etc.  The point is not that these are problems of the poor, but that these problems MAY occur more often among the poor.  MAYBE these are correlated with crime.  SO, unwanted children grow up with behaviour problems because of their unwantedness, and this leads to crime.  That's the argument in freakonomics.  Unwanted children may also come from more criminogenic (crime-causing) environments (drugs/alcohol/malnutritional affects on the foetus and child, abuse, etc.).  Abortion reduces not only the potential criminals, but also the stressor from the family.  And finally, unwanted children may possibly carry more criminogenic biological factors (genes, defects, IQ, etc.).  Abortion in this case merely reduces potential criminals.

My professional opinion (hey, look at me, i'm a professional!!!):

the first (unwantedness) is absolutely correct, but it's difficult to tease out the difference from argument two.

the second (environment) undoubtedly has an impact on crime but who knows how significant.  it's a morally loaded argument and it's difficult to tease out fact.

the third I doubt, since biological predispositions to crime (genes) may also aid people in business, etc.  As such, i doubt their is much class difference.  IQ is probably a factor, but mental illness probably not a significant factor.

as far as i know crime rates are steady or decreasing (USA is exempt because it's fucked up).  I would say any significant increase is merely in criminalisation (more crimes), incarceration (more prisoners), or media (more exposure).  People never care to listen to this, so i stopped caring.  As such, I cannot comment on recent changes with any authority.  I do know the crime rate now is relatively low compared to say 1920 or 1970.  At all times society believes the crime rate is increasing and that the youth are out of control.  read up on ancient greece, same thing.

why the fuck are my posts so long?  I'm so full of shit.  Anybody get this far?

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We can empathise with our dogs or cats when we see they are in pain, but sheep, cows, and pigs are routinely slaughtered, and many cases are in pain before we eat them....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting thing about English is that we have different words for the living animal and the cooked stuff on our plates. We don't eat cows -- we eat beef. We don't eat pigs -- we eat pork. And so on... With the exception of birds, chicken and turkey for example.

The things we don't usually eat, like dogs or horses, don't have similar words.

Fiona

(fount of random trivia)

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Folks, this board is about Food Senstivities, Diet etc...  Can we keep the abortion and crime debates out of it? We're straying off topic.  Feel free to start another thread about it on another forum by all means, though.

Thanks,

Karen

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Folks, this board is about Food Senstivities, Diet etc...  Can we keep the abortion and crime debates out of it? We're straying off topic.  Feel free to start another thread about it on another forum by all means, though.

Thanks,

Karen

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hmmmm, despite a random comment on crime that was merely explained, the moralism of diet is still on topic.  I can see how hollow log could relate vegetarianism with abortion.  I think my position is that neither animals nor foetuses are conscious like we are, but we have a responsibility not to be cruel to the former because cruelty is unnecessary.  Abortion may be necessary, but for mothers not for crime control.

I think vegetarians probably are more likely to follow certain ethics: environmentalism, peace, legalisation of marijuana, animal rights, religion, Tom Petty.  I think we've covered a few of these already.  I don't think that, should we start discussing the merits of Seventh Day Adventism, the thread ought to be moved to the religion board. 

Speaking of which, hollow log did you know that Sanitarium is owned by the Seventh Day Adventist Church (which preaches but does not require vegetarianism)?  For non-Aussies, they make So Good soy milk and numerous other vegetarian products.  Someone told me the Church doesn't own the North American branch.  As a non-supporter of religion, that's always been an ethical dilemma for me. 

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Speaking of which, hollow log did you know that Sanitarium is owned by the Seventh Day Adventist Church (which preaches but does not require vegetarianism)?  For non-Aussies, they make So Good soy milk and numerous other vegetarian products.  Someone told me the Church doesn't own the North American branch.  As a non-supporter of religion, that's always been an ethical dilemma for me.   

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Pasta, I'm actually eating muesli with So Good as I type! Yeah, I did know that Sanitarium were owned by the Seventh Day Adventists....but I forgot so thanks for reminding me.  I don't support religion either... or try not too... so yeah it is a diffifult one for me too! At the very least for their position on homosexuality...

On the other hand, they possibly are more ethical, in some areas, than major corporations, that provide our food, and who have no empathy, and often no social conscience (basically psychopathic, as seen in The Corporation, which is such a good film), and don't give a shit about us Queers either... with many actually *relying* on our continued oppression..

The issue of homosexuality is a huge one for me... giving money to anyone who opposes it in *any* form pisses me off, but we do that everywhere it some form or another. Nestle and kellogs are known for doing some pretty dodgy stuff out there!  Sure, it is possible to try and avoid all this, and just go to the market and get a lot of our food there with the hope that it is sourced from a better place, (or just go live as a hippy round Nimbin!) but then what about our cleaning products? the newspaper we buy? our cat food? It's a difficult one.

I don't support religion for very good reasons, but then I don't support a lot of the crazy stuff that goes on out there either.  And there are a lot of problems with just getting soy... in countries in South America the deforestation rate is constantly increasing in order to increase soy production.  It's a huge evironmental problem.  So then is it unethical to get soy? Where can you trace down the most environmentally friendly soy?

I'm going on and on, but I like this discussion..

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Folks, this board is about Food Senstivities, Diet etc...  Can we keep the abortion and crime debates out of it? We're straying off topic.  Feel free to start another thread about it on another forum by all means, though.

Thanks,

Karen

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Hey Karen, I can see where you are coming from, but I brought it up in relation to vegetarianism/veganism.  If I was to bring it up as a singular issue then it would've been somewhere else.  I'm looking at it in relation to the ethics of animal consumption, and the philosophical understanding what we do with life, whether human or animal, and whether you can actually draw a distinction.  It's almost animal rights vs. human rights. Talking about abortion, in this context alone, I think, is helpful in looking at the ethics in approaching all life forms from any angle.. so it does come back to the position we take on the animals we consume, and our own ethics around this... it's like comparing another example in order to better understand the one in front of you... It's something that my change in diet is presenting me with... anyhow I think the discussion has already come around now...

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We can empathise with our dogs or cats when we see they are in pain, but sheep, cows, and pigs are routinely slaughtered, and many cases are in pain before we eat them....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting thing about English is that we have different words for the living animal and the cooked stuff on our plates. We don't eat cows -- we eat beef. We don't eat pigs -- we eat pork. And so on... With the exception of birds, chicken and turkey for example.

The things we don't usually eat, like dogs or horses, don't have similar words.

Fiona

(fount of random trivia)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Fiona, totally! ...I think that's a really good point...  if I could make up a word, we "de-animalise" the animal in the process redefining what it is we are eating, and it is represented in the label we use.... we want to distance ourselves from the animal as much as possible... when we go to the supermarket or butcher and see rows and rows of meat, we are not thinking of cows or lambs roaming up in the top paddock.  We see pieces of meat as products that we consume, not something coming from a living breathing animal. 

I remember when I was about 13, I used to help on a farm with a friend just outside the town I lived in.  I remember the guy who owned the farm killed a lamb, that I was in a paddock with, that day so we could eat it that night.  I felt sick to my stomach eating the meat of that lamb, just because I could still picture it in my mind, but I felt like I had to eat it so I wouldn't look rude.. or probably because I didn't want to look "weak" also!  It kept playing in my mind what I had done for the rest of the week.  But, then I went back to eating lamb like everyone else, and forgot all about it.

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An interesting thing about English is that we have different words for the living animal and the cooked stuff on our plates. We don't eat cows -- we eat beef. We don't eat pigs -- we eat pork. And so on... With the exception of birds, chicken and turkey for example.

The things we don't usually eat, like dogs or horses, don't have similar words.

Fiona

(fount of random trivia)

Hey Fiona, totally! ...I think that's a really good point...  if I could make up a word, we "de-animalise" the animal in the process redefining what it is we are eating, and it is represented in the label we use.... we want to distance ourselves from the animal as much as possible... when we go to the supermarket or butcher and see rows and rows of meat, we are not thinking of cows or lambs roaming up in the top paddock.  We see pieces of meat as products that we consume, not something coming from a living breathing animal.

On a rather pointless little detour, we derived many of our food words from the French language back when ye olde England was occupied.  The French live vache became the boeuf on the plate, as a live cochon became porc.  Prior to the invasion, we ate cow. 

Yeesh, my French teacher was excited when she got to talk about l'alimentation!  (Picture a middle-aged woman wiggling side-to-side with every syllable.) 

On the topic of soy and deforestation, I'd like to know how much deforestation is being carried out right now in order to provide grazing land for beef cattle or foodstuffs for their feed.  Destroying the rainforest we need to replenish the atmosphere is terrible under any circumstance, but how much less would be cut down if vegan/vegetarian diets became the norm? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I listened to a podcast the other day from an Australian radio program about the chickens used in KFC, and how they're treated.  It has some live audio of some animal liberationists raiding a chicken farm and their confrontations with the workers.  It also has various people calling up the station who have worked in an abattoir, so it's interesting to hear their stories from their angle, and what they think of sausages in particular. ;-)

Here's the link:

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/notes/s1498774.htm

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Hi Hollow-

I'm 27 now. I've been a vegetarian since middle school and a vegan since college. I'm lactose intolerant and very compassionate towards animals, so veganism is the logical choice for me. That doesn't mean I don't decide to eat the candy bar or real mac-n-cheese hear and there. It is a choice for me, not a commandment enforced by the Vegan Police.

My moods are not impacted at all by my diet in any adverse way. I believe that if anything I feel better, because every day I live my beliefs.

Here are some suggestions to maintain your own healthy vegetarianism:

1. Get a mentor who is a very well versed vegan or vegetarian. Someone who is very healthy and has done it for at least a couple of years, if possible. I suggest this because it is a lifestyle thing, something you need to be very mindful of. Just jumping into it without anyone to help you or go shopping with you, or teach you how to go to restaurants is setting yourself up for failure or nutritional hell.

2. Vegetarianism and veganism require some mental gymnastics. You have to be mindful, especially for the first 6 months, so you learn what to just grab in the store and what has ingredients in it you wish to avoid.

3. You may want to get a baseline blood work/blood inventory from your GP and do it again after 6 months and again annually after that so you know if you need to change something. For example, all my blood work is always perfect. Except this past one, where my protein and therefore amino acids were on the lower side of normal. I have been much more aware of my protein and have started doing the soy protein shakes again.

Let me know if you need someone to help you learn more about meatless life and how to do it right, so you'll be healthy and stay with it. I'll help you.

--Loon-- lifelong vegetarian, vegan for 10 years

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Vegetarianism and veganism require some mental gymnastics. You have to be mindful, especially for the first 6 months, so you learn what to just grab in the store and what has ingredients in it you wish to avoid.

hee hee. this reminds me of a story my bf tells of his experience going vegan. the day after he decided he wanted to try it, he went to the school caf for breakfast, trying to figure out what he could eat. cereal was out. so were pancakes or eggs. eventually, he just settled for a cup of hot cocoa. he sat down with his friends.

'giving up already?' they asked.

he stared at them blankly, until they gently reminded him that cocoa had milk products in it...

it can be tough. so many things have hidden animal ingredients: gelatin, honey, milk solids, and on...

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*stands up*  i'm an omnivore, and i eat meat.....

can i suggest something here, for those who are considering giving up dairy and eggs because they don't want to support an industry that treats the animals like chattel?  why not buy organic, free-range milk and egg products?

i found (by accident) that free-range/organic dairy/eggs were much tastier than the kind from giant corporations.  i think it's because the animals live a much healthier, natural life: one free of small cages, growth hormones, antibiotics and such.  some organic producers take great care to make the lives of their animals as close to nature as they can get, given that they are domesticated animals.

i feel that supporting the organic/free range farmers will encourage that segment of the market to grow, bringing more variety and choice and lower prices to mainstream americans.  i mean, several years ago i couldn't get organic milk except at the health food store.  now it's available at all my groceries, along with cheese and yogurt and eggs....it's all about consumer demand.

so if you want to help the animals, buy the organic/free range to help build up that segment of the market.  every free range chicken laying eggs is one less at an egg farm.

that's how i live as an ethical omnivore.  i do eat meat, but am trying to support the more animal friendly producers, rather than the big corporations.

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yay for free-range/organic producers!

you do want to do research, though, on the companies you support through your purchases. federal regulations governing 'organic' producers are hazy at best, and some of the larger 'organic' companies keep animals under conditions not much better than factory farmers might. horizon organic, for example, still has large-scale dairy operations. better treatment than many dairy cows get, and without the antibiotic/growth hormone issues, but still, not ideal.

freerange/organic is great for us ovo/lactos, though, as long as the producers are ethical and not just trying to slap an upscale label on their products.

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  • 3 months later...

Has anyone seen the Simpsons episode where Lisa turns vegetarian?

omg it is so funny... I almost put my fist in the air when Lisa shouts at Homer, "That's it! I can't live in a house with this prehistoric carvinore.  I am outta here!

More classic lines:

"Look it's Mrs Potato head. She has a head made out of lettuce."

"Are you gonna marry a carrot Lisa?"

Poor Lisa... I was so happy that she found Apu in the end, with his vege hotdogs, and his garden with Paul and Linda McCartney.  I know it's weird, but I almost shed a tear for Lisa ... ok, I'm having an emotional day, ok? ;)

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  • 4 weeks later...

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