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I am a girl. I mean, physically I am born female. And I am okay with it. Things should be simple then?

 I don't feel I am male. I just... don't feel female. I feel... genderless. Thinking of myself in terms of female makes kind of sick, like I am lying. But... weirdly, I have no problem with a lot of female things: I do wear skirts, and colourful stuff, and earrings. I can't be bothered with make-up or high heels, but that's just cliché, I could be a girl/woman without them. But then, why don't I feel I want to be female? Can I be a neutral who happen to share some things with the physical gender of my body?


I wish I could be agender, a body empty of gender identity. But, honestly, it is not very important, as I can feel agender without having to change my body, and even while wearing girl clothes. (Not only, I also have many neutral clothes, but... I like skirts too. But like I like trees, in a non-gendered way?) Am I a liar?


As a kid, what did I play? I played sports, but mostly, what I liked was nature. Because it was neither she, nor he. The kingdom of it.


Sexuality. Gender and sexuality don't necessarily do together, but I know they are linked in my experience of Me. I have a girlfriend I love. But I don't identify as a lesbian. Queer maybe. But (and I might be a terrible person there, and unfair to SO), I have trouble with sex, I mean with "me as a sexual being". It disgusts me. It literally makes me sick, and I don't know why. Is it just my low self-esteem and hatred of my body? Is it that I score high in the "almost asexual" test?


Is my problem with seeing myself as gendered my way to refuse sexuality (if I don't have a gender, I can't be sexual) (<= I know how untrue this is, but let's say that, for 9 years old me, it may have been how I felt it)


When I was 8, I had a tdoc, very Freudian, and a dog. I would sit indian-style. My dog would come and sleep between my legs, because it was a nest. My tdoc would say I was using the dog as a penis, because I wanted a penis and I was enjoying this, no matter what I said. Of course, it was Freudian talk, but how could I know. I  was disgusted with myself, I didn't want those things, I thought, I was a little girl, and I never, ever would want to be dirty and disgusting like that again.




So... what do I do with my gender now?

Edited by inabook
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I think a tdoc who told you when you were 8 that you were using a dog as a penis is unprofessional, especially when the dog chose to be there, and you did not move it there.  I call bullshit.


Anyway... I don't have any advice about the gender stuff, but I'm hoping that Mirazh will post, as he was born female but identifies as an effeminate male and I think is interested in androgyny.


I don't think it is necessary to make a "decision" or label yourself or anything.   


To some degree gender is a construct.  I mean, obviously there are male and female parts.  But the behaviors that are associated with each gender are somewhat fluid, or imprinted based on societal values and traditions.  Gender roles are different in different societies.  In some societies there is even believed to be a third or fourth gender.  So I guess masculine and feminine are relative terms, and I think that it can be an asset to occupy both masculine and feminine qualities.  

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Wow... that tdoc was waaaaay messed up.


Dogs like to sit in nests because it's where humans are warm... not because you wanted to use the dog as a penis.


That says WAY more to me about where tdoc's head is at than yours.



Having said that, I'm sorry you had such a fucked up tdoc.



And gender and sexuality are connected but not, as you've already stated, the same thing. They're separate but interrelated concepts.



What do you do with your gender now? Why, ANYTHING YOU WANT! (including nothing at all)

Seriously. You get to decide how or even whether or not to express gender.

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Maybe this helps (I dunno)  I have a friend who had issues.  He tried the meet the right girl, kid, jpise with the white picket fence etc.  Except...   he wasn't into women (sexualy) and thought there was something wrong.  He was sexualy keen on men and figured he had guy parts so he must be a gay man.   Ok, except living that way felt just as wrong and he got really badly depressed.  He spent a lot of time thinking about what was "wrong" and what could be done.   I talked with him a lot and out of just random (how about this?) kind of thing wondered about transexuality.  He has the guy "parts" but is into men but isin't into using his guy parts with men.   *I'm really oversimplifying these conversations we had.  Anyway - to keep it short "he" went to a TDoc and spent some serious time pondering everything.  The TDoc said it was pretty clear that the problem was transexuality.   My friend tried a year (I think?) of taking Estrogen and some kind of drug that reduces Testosterone to female levels.  TDoc had him live as a female for a year.  My friend told me that Estrogen was addictive.   It gave her the feeling that this treatment was making things "normal"   Living "female" for a year started out akward but I heard a lot of positive comments about how life had changed for the better.  After the year was up she had surgery and the last time I saw her she was really happy (Relieved as well) with this decision.   


I think that being open to the idea was a stumbling block for her.  Maybe it took having other people suggest it be ok to look into it.   I'm not saying of course that this is your problem but I would suggest you talk to someone who is professionaly trained in gender identity, etc and see what they think.  


On a totally different slant - I don't know if your currently taking meds but some (like Celixia for me) can make you feel asexual.  Or at least not "involved" in sex because for some people it gives you anorgasmia (inability to climax)   Sex however never felt "gross" and I think being disgusted with yourself sexualy is a good signal this would be goof to work on it.  No one should be miserable because of self loathing.  At least its a strong signal that something is wrong.


Good luck whatever you decide to do.

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It's hard because, like you say, gender is often linked to so many external things imposed on us by others, so it's hard to tease out what is 'you'. And it also sounds like MI has been stressful and that can make you question who you are anyway. The tdoc issue must have made you feel confused, I can see how uncomfortable that made you to be told what your feelings were for you. In a way, that is a theme with gender, eh, other people telling you what you are and then battling what that makes you feel. 


I am sorry that you haven't had much support to ask your own questions and find your own answers re: your gender. I am a bisexual woman, born with a womans body, in the traditional terms, I date a man in a hetrosexual relationship and so I don't personally face a lot of stigma on that count. However what I'd like for everyone is the freedom I happen to have, to express how I feel inside without having to have someone else define it. I meet lots of people in daily life who don't fit their initial appearances, I have transgendered, polyamorous, BDSM practitioners, gay couples, asexual people etc in my day to day life and I have learned a lot from people. I hope that you can find your crowd, wherever they are, and feel able to do what feels right to you.

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Thank you for your answers and for sharing your experience. I must admit that I am a bit... lost. I just don't get where this feeling of disgust for myself is coming from (I mean, more than the general self-hatred, which is just the "normal" experience)

I don't think I would be better as "male", I would be better as nothing. But... I don't know how much is just fear, sory, I am being confused. 


Thank you so much.

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I wish I had some sage advice to offer. But all I have is a question: why were you seeing a therapist at age eight? Was it about gender identity issues then? The reason I ask is that the therapist's whacko interpretation seems to have either created or greatly amplified feelings of disgust.

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Thanks for your question Vanderk.


So, no, it was not about gender identity issues, but unrelated stuff (I had stopped eating because I thought food would poison me. For... a bit too long. And going out, because I thought there were bombs, and had panic attacks...), so I guess I was a tomboy, and yeah, I disliked "girl stuff", but I mostly didn't want to be human at all (I was fairly convinced that if I tried hard enough, I could become an animal^^), and I didn't want to be a boy. I wanted to be neutral, but that was not the problem bringing me in therapy.


She kept on saying stuff like that for the 10 years I saw her, but it was sometimes more understandable ("you are using your studies/books/whatever as your penis" which, I guess, meant I used it as a tool to have power...?). I still felt dirty (I think I understood that it was mainly metaphorical quite late... ) and disgusted. 


I just don't get why I feel so wrong about it.

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"you are using your school books as a penis"  ??  WTF

and dogs just like to cuddle, and your dog must have been a comfort to you

have a a miniature poodle cuddled between my legs for a few hours every night

your dog was a pet, a comfort - not a PENIS - that tdoc is a disgrace to her profession


I know some things about transgender, my husband is an FTM, he transitioned back in 1998

prior to our marriage - we have been around the community and he has done some public speaking


you need to check out the writings of Leslie Feinberg - Stone Butch Blues and Transgender Warriors would be a good start




just give yourself time, some therapy to discuss why sex disgusts you, or makes you feel disgust - well that

would be a good subject to explore but you would need to chose a therapist very, very carefully

definitely someone from the GLBT community who is very experienced in gender issues


(not a lesbian therapist who thinks you have internalized homophobia.....that could be harmful if the therapist had an agenda)


this is all my personal experience from nearly twenty years involved in the trans community

you need time and maturity to work through these issues so be good to yourself

married to my beloved TG

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I apologise, as I am not currently able to give this post the due attention that I know it deserves.  Just not having a very "language ON" kind of day, as I am stressed.


Just wanted to mention that I view the possibilities of gender as something like a galaxy, with infinite options.  One day I hope to have some lovely stickies with a plethora of links at the top of this forum... but for now, perhaps, you might find interest in searching the Internet for gender concepts such as: agender, neutrois, gender-neutral, etc.


I have met more than a few folks who identify under those terms, and others that I cannot currently recall.


It is okay to explore gender identities, learn about them, "try them on" in a sense and see how they fit.  It is okay to change your mind.  It is okay to just be under the "questioning" label, to reject all labels, to enjoy labels, whatever you choose.  It's your gender (or lack thereof,) and you're the only one who can answer that.


Your gender might not be related to what you feel about your body at all... or it might be intimately tied to it.  Just try to keep in mind that being okay with certain parts, or needing other parts, these things do not have to match up to the expected societal standards of gender.  You can be trans* or agender or what-have-you without needing any physical/medical changes at all.  You get to choose what changes, if any, you need or should make.  Changes are not just medical, they can be as simple as telling others, cutting your hair, changing how you dress, etc.


I hope to return and more fully read your post at a later date.  I am glad that you found us.

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Thank you for your answers and suggestions.


About my therapist: she had a psychoanalytical training, and was almost wearing Freud's beard, so... I guess it was just her way. Which happened to be hurtful at time. (And don't ask what she said about homosexuality, you don't want to know ^^)


I think that yes, just thinking about it, and taking time is the key, it is just... I wish sometimes things were simple and working^^. I may broach it with my current therapist, however I don't know whether this is something she is experienced it. 


Thank you again.

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I self-identify as neutrois. It is hard for me to admit that my biological sex is female, because I am divorced from and uncomfortable with it. I relate strongly to what you say about feeling like you're genderless; if I had my way, the body would be devoid of sex characteristics, androgynous. I dress and behave that way now.

You say can you be a neutral who happens to like certain "feminine" things...the answer to that is that it's your body, and your identity, and you may express the combination in any way you want. Your body is yours, first and foremost. People might judge or act weird, but they do anyway; personally, I say if people are going to gossip and stick their noses where they don't belong, that confrontation will be on my terms.

As for sexuality, mine is "none for me, thanks." Some of it is the sense of dysmorphic dissociation I feel from the body, but some is also just because I'm not a sexually driven creature. I encourage you to talk about this with a therapist whom you can trust, who doesn't make you uncomfortable. There are ways you can explore and work with your dysmorphic feelings, so you can have healthy and satisfying sexual relationships with whomever you desire.

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