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Lady Krazy Kat

If a guy doesn't kiss you on the 2nd time out, is he not interested?

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Hey All.  I just went out last night for the 2nd time with a guy I am interested in, and I am worried that he didn't kiss me or make really any moves despite him seeming interested and my best efforts to show interest.  For starters, I have a hard time with being insecure in the first parts of any "relationship" or "dating" situation-- for all I know, it wasn't even a "date" at all.  I feel pathetic because I'm 30 years old and don't "understand" how to date.  I have been in two long term relationships (5 years and 4 years, respectively) since age 16, and for any of my other shorter dating experiences, all of the first kisses have sadly occurred while we were both extremely drunk so it just "happened" (even with the long-term guys) without any tension, anxiety, or forethought.  

 

The one exception to this is the last guy I dated about two years ago (who was supposedly "in recovery", hence the not drinking, but he also lies about everything and stole my benzos, so I can't trust anything about that situation). He was a very assertive, charismatic person that had no problem knowing exactly the "right" moves to make at the "right" now, moved very quickly, and in essence was a sociopathic "player" that ended up being emotionally abusive and highly unpredictable with regard to affection, attention, contact, etc.  (Sorry to throw around clinical terms, but that ex and I are both therapists, and he even self-described himself, I thought jokingly at first, as being a "sociopath.")  That was my last relationship, and so I am especially sensitive to rejection and not knowing the "rules" of a new situation.  (Yeah, I know there aren't really "rules," but I wish there were because I wouldn't be so confused and anxious.)  I thought I was over having abusive relationships, but that last one snuck up on me (yeah, I've been working on it in therapy for a long time, but trying to date in general is bringing a whole new element to my insecurity.)  

 

So this guy, I had originally met him at my new job I started 6 mos ago, and he had just given his notice and now works elsewhere, so we worked together for about 3.5 weeks weeks total.  We re-connected on FB (my initiation), starting talking more and more, and decided to hang out.  First time was just a casual day thing (hiking, in which he brought his dog), so its understandable no kissing happened then, though we did hug.  He ended up following up that "date"/hang-out session with a text (2 hours later) referencing something we said while hanging out, which led to a 1.5 hour text convo.  

 

We went out yesterday, late afternoon into evening (bowling-- we didn't want to stop, intended to play just like 2 games but played 6 or 7 due to having too much fun), then dinner-- he had found a veg restaurant, which I thought was nice b/c I'm vegetarian and I'm surprised he remembered that.)  He paid for everything (except I bought the second beers at the bowling alley-- we both only had 2 that whole night, which is good), despite me offering to pay for half or different portions (like he paid for bowling, so I tried to pay for dinner.  When I tried to pay for dinner, he said, something like, "No, I got this, you can get it next time...well if..." and then changed the subject.  Through gestures, body language, flirting, etc, I tried my best to convey interest throughout the night.  We never ran out of anything to talk about, but I was a little quieter in the car ride home because I was nervous about the possibility of kissing, but we still kept the convo going.  Then he dropped me off, and it felt weird and awkward, at least on my end-- I thought he would at least hug me like last night, and he didn't.  Didn't try to kiss me or anything.  Granted, I also just grabbed my stuff and said goodnight and didn't linger long enough, but I didn't want to seem desperate or overeager or create anything awkward, like him thinking, "come on woman, why aren't you getting out?"   We did have some physical contact earlier in the evening, mainly lots of "high fives" during bowling (but the "high fiving" and the one hug was the only contact).  Just so he wouldn't think I WASN'T interested, I followed up with a text about 30 min after he dropped me just thanking him, saying I had a great time, hope he got home safe.  We exchanged a few texts in which he said the same thing and we commiserated about having "bowling finger," etc.

 

I feel like he seems interested, but maybe I am deluding myself too. (Or conversely, trying to convince myself he's NOT interested so I don't get hurt).  He calls when he says he will, conversations on the phone are getting longer, we never run out of anything to say, our topics are appropriate (not too intense but also showing increasing self-disclosure), we laugh a lot, he sends me funny you-tube videos, we text during the week at work, he introduced me to his dog which I have heard can be a "good sign," etc).  But I don't GET IT-- why didn't he make any moves?  He also didn't mention doing it again, like he did after the first time we hung out (except the reference to me paying next time, which he cut off mid-sentence). 

 

But seriously, I cried a little bit last night after he dropped me out-- not because I'm so desperate for him to kiss me specifically, but because I felt rejected, insecure, embarassed that I misread signals, ashamed, frustrated about having to go through this uncertainty of trying to date someone all over again.  

 

Ugh, so I guess my question is, if a guy doesn't kiss you after two dates/hang-outs, does that mean they're not interested.  Secondly, how do I cope with this constant roller coaster of feeling rejected and ashamed after I perceive disinterest (on a day to day basis, not just by dealing with it in therapy, which I do)?  When I'm with him, I am able to be completely mindful and in the moment (so I don't think he can tell my level of insecurity in part because I'm simply not even feeling it then), but then later on, I am a mess.  

 

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Maybe next time, you can try kissing him, if that's what you want, and he seems interested, and see how that works out.

In my relationship, he was much more shy than I am. If I want something, how is he going to know, unless I ask? So maybe it's the same here. Maybe he's just as shy or as scared as you are. 

Someone has to take charge. Why not have it be you?

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I'm with WR on this one.  My now husband was so nervous that I ended up having to ask him out.  Ok, so to be honest, I tricked him but he was willing.  I initiated contact but he was the first to tell me that he loved me.  He's an affectionate bastard now.

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My husband didn't kiss me on our first date.  I was driving because his truck was unavailable, so I dropped him at his house.  When he said goodnight and walked away, I got out of my car, ran after him, grabbed him by the shirt, planted a smacking kiss on his lips and ran back to the car.

 

Sometimes you gotta take the bull by the horns.  Kiss him on your next date (at an appropriate time and all that) and see how he reacts.

 

olga

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Heh. My friends and I call it "the girl crazies" when one of us (not me, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...oh man...just the thought...) goes on a date and then analyzes every little detail trying to discern his level of interest and then going through the torture of "do I text/call him? will that make me seem desperate if I do? will it make me seem disinterested if I don't?" to the point where we drive ourselves crazy. Luckily we tend to bounce these things off one another, so there's almost always someone there to say, "Hey - girl crazies. Stop it." Which is admittedly very hard to do!

 

And I, too, am going to agree with Titania - if you are having fun and he seems to be having fun and you enjoy one another's company, just flow with it and see what happens. He may be shy, he may be on the rebound, who knows? Maybe he thinks his breath stinks. LOL You just never really know. Maybe next time on the date, try holding his hand - it's not quite as intimate as a kiss, but I think it's a universal sign of interest/affection between romantically attracted persons. That subtle signal from you might be what he needs to feel confident about YOUR level of interest!

 

Keep us posted! I'm nosy like that. :)

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"which led to a 1.5 hour text convo. "

 

 

If you do well conversing by computer, it might be easier to open the subject of closeness, contact, ground rules...  while you are physically some distance apart.

An opening gambit might be about how nervous you were, and unsure what would feel right/wrong.

He could easily be nervous and not wanting to "get it wrong" too.

 

 

But then, I've never really got the hang of "dating", either.

Except apparently it's not where you cut the other person in half and count the growth rings to get their age.

 

Chris.

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If you do well conversing by computer, it might be easier to open the subject of closeness, contact, ground rules...  while you are physically some distance apart.

An opening gambit might be about how nervous you were, and unsure what would feel right/wrong.

He could easily be nervous and not wanting to "get it wrong" too.

 

 

 

That's what ended up  happening between my gf and I. We talked really easily, but both of us were really unsure about the physical contact part..so a very quick conversation revealed that both of us were definitely interested and thinking the same thing, but unsure what page the other person was on. It went from there.

 

As a side note, I'd consider it a fallback if just doing it isn't your style...but my style was definitely the initial throw it out and talk about it.

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I agree with the others. You should not assume lack of interest.

 

The fact that he continues to call/text proves he wants to continue the interaction, which means he is interested.

 

If you have to make an assumption, as a guy I would assume (1) he wants to but doesn't know if it's okay with you or what to do because he doesn't know if it will be warmly received and he is looking for some positive indicator from you that it would be welcome before he does it. Basically, he wants to but he is afraid of messing the whole thing up that you two have started. He is trying to build up his courage and he probably has tapes playing in his head about fear of rejection that are paralyzing him. (2) as clear as you've tried to make them, lots of guys are really poor at reading a woman's body language and subtle signals can fly over his head completely missed.

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Thanks everyone for your replies!  I am no longer freaking out, as there has been continual positive contact since then in an interested and sometimes flirty way-- still mainly by text but I let him know that I like when he calls too.  As some of you have said, I believe he is just very shy and nervous.  He told me yesterday that he hasn't really dated anyone beyond 1-2 dates (and those were match.com things) in about 3 years (presumably because none of those girls were "matches".... I do know he is capable of a long term relationship, dated a girl for 5 years that he later became engaged to).  He asked if I thought this was weird or a problem, which I said no (heh, I myself haven't really dated anyone in 2 years), and he said something like, "Ok, I just wanted you to know who you were dealing with".... presumably to let me know he was rusty / recently inexperienced.  This was in the context of planning our 3rd date (so I know it wasn't a cop-out of "I only date people 1-2 x's"), and I did let him know I was interested and him vice versa.  We pretty much texted on and off all day yesterday from about 12 until my bedtime at 8 (early work hours), with more heavy texting after he got out of work at 5.  

 

So, we are going out again on Saturday.  I honestly don't know if I'll feel comfortable just being the one to kiss him-- I tried that with one other guy, and it was super awkward b/c he turned away.... granted we were 15 at the time, so I don't put too much stock in that!  (Plus, he and I ended up dating-- and kissing-- shortly after that.)  Maybe I will, maybe I won't...but hopefully he will, or it will just organically "happen" now that we both know of each other's mutual interest.

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Don't things organically happen because one of the two people involved took the initiative?

Just a thought.

 

This sounds positive! I hope that you have a good time on Saturday :)

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You have a third choice beyond kissing him and not kissing him.

 

You could set the stage for him so that he still feels like he has to take the initiative but you've made it a little easier for him. You are doing this to boost his confidence but still keeping him in the role of a man

 

You could stop talking (and stop him from talking, right in the middle of a conversation. whatever he's saying just completely ignore it and do what you're going to do), you're taking charge for a moment but only for the purpose of setting the scene. you move toward him, put your face straight facing his to within an inch of his face, slowly exhale inhale exhale open mouth and let him feel your breath on his mouth, smile invitingly using your eyes communicating showing him how friendly and approachable and nonrejecting you are, start doing jedi telepathy on him like you have the power to tell him with your mind "kiss me now...kiss me now.....kiss me now..." and you're communicating that with your eyes. maybe your hand is caressing his chest or caressing the back of his neck, if he tries to talk just completely ignore him, gaze longingly for several second into his eyes, let him see your desire in your eyes, then let him see your eyes drop down so you're obviously gazing at his lips for a second, then gaze back into his eyes, let your tongue ever so slightly portrude from your lips just for a flash of a second as you're looking into his eyes, in all this you want to be creating a sense of sexual tension, then close your eyes, pucker your lips - not a lot, just slightly, and then...without going toward him any more.....hold still and wait

 

If by some chance he still doesn't get it after that, then put your hand around to the center of the small of his lower back and forcefully quickly draw his body against yours so he's actually bumping into you, this works like a shock to his system so you're waking him up into being in the moment so he gets out of his head and experiences the present moment.

 

then if that doesn't work open your eyes, reach up to the back of his neck close your eyes again and pull his neck firmly in the direction of yours but NOT to the point where your lips make contact. All you've done is force him closer, and you're basically firmly pulling on his neck, but you want to set it up so maybe you're traveled the whole mile and all he has to do is travel one inch to the finish line but for some men know that that one inch can be a horribly painful feeling and fearful and risky experience but its really important for his personal growth and self worth as a man that he HAS to take the initiative and move that last inch toward your lips, he has to feel some risk and take the risk and act despite his fear. you want it to be so In the end it is still him taking the ultimate final step, so it still feels like him kissing you, not the other way around. He HAS to know that he is the one who ultimately kissed you. By making him do this you are doing him a favor as a man, you are boosting his confidence.

 

Something like that

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Well, I think it isn't a big deal when you have the big kiss, or even if you kiss or not.  There are lots of other ways of progressing to intimate physical contact.  Personally, I like being touched in other ways, I am not really ready to kiss a person until I'm already more intimate with them.  Anyway, have fun :)

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There's something really attractive when a guy does kiss you first, I have to agree.  But him not doing it yet doesn't mean he's not interested.  

 

This having been said, I once dated a guy who didn't kiss me for over 6 weeks and 7 dates.   :wall:  Not sure why I kept going out with him--I think partially I really just wanted to know how fucking long it was going to take  :glare:  LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE, PADAWAN

Edited by saveyoursanity

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My husband didn't kiss me for the first two days we spent together (even though I made it abundantly clear I wanted to) because he wanted to keep our connection more about who we were and less about the physical aspect. Then we kissed each other at the same moment on the third day, when the moment was exactly right. We didn't plan it or think it through elaborately, it just happened.

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Is it possible that he really likes you, but is not sexually attracted? I used to be very lonely and would getting into relationships like that. Partly shitty on my part, but ample support from the "people become more attractive" society.

 

> First time was just a casual day thing (hiking, in which he brought his dog), so its understandable no kissing happened then...

 

I think it's great neither of you wanted to upset the dog.

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Hey all, thanks for your replies and support.  Well, our third date came and went and was fabulous!  And...it did happen!  He kissed me...or I kissed him...or a little bit of both, but yay!! I'm pretty sure he started it, but I was about to anyway-- it was just completely the "right" moment in the context.  (Nothing more than that, which I am completely comfortable with, but lots and lots of making out, holding hands, etc).  

 

oVoidampUle, I can completely relate to what you say about getting into relationships out of loneliness (or, sometimes in my case, out of not wanting to hurt their feelings), as I was guilty of that in my teens and early 20s.  But, um, I can pretty much unequivocally say that he IS attracted to me (based on physical signs and him actually stating so).  

 

Thanks again!  I'm sure I'll post something again in the future in which I freak out about something else.  It's been awhile since I've dated a genuinely nice guy, which is scary.  But it's nice to freak out about "normal" things (like dating) rather than my PTSD symptoms (which are pretty much at bay, overall).  

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