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IndieVisible

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I can't shake the thought of suicide. I thought I was over this shit. But it comes back. I don't need talking off the edge, and I'm not going to do it right now. Just hard to imagine an alternative. Things will get better, just wait, and try. I might feel different in a month. It always seems like the truth at the time though. Don't trust your feelings. Well what the fuck am I supposed to trust then?

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Suicidal ideation can be considered a kind of alarm system to alert you when your condition is entering an actively symptomatic period. Suicidality is never a condition of a mind whose processes are stable—if you can't shake the thoughts, it's time to reach out for professional assistance.

2 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

I'm not going to do it right now.

I'm not going to do it right now is not the same thing as I'm not going to do it. It's good that you are able to look at your condition with some analytical perspective and recognize that this is not only transitory, but illusory—although it may seem like the truth in the moment, you know that it isn't, and won't be. I also fully understand how frustrating it is to have weathered a bout of suicidality and come out the other side, only to find the thoughts back in your head again like a roommate you thought you had finally gotten rid of and here he is back again on the stoop.

2 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Don't trust your feelings.

Well. I'm on record as being highly skeptical of any decision made on the basis of emotion under any circumstances, but I'm autistic and clearly a poor authority on limbic matters. I have, however, as an autistic person who must carefully observe the way neurotypical persons behave within the context of their emotions, often found that emotion is, even in the best situations, as likely as not to lead one to make irrational, self-defeating decisions. It's just baffling to me. In this case, in particular:

No. Don't trust your feelings. Your feelings are utterly gonzo right now.

Flue, it hasn't been clear in your narratives with us to what degree you are under the care of a mental health professional. You don't post an actual dx, so we don't know if you even actually have one such that you would know exactly what flavor of MI you're coping with.  I sort of get the sense that you're doing the best you can largely on your own with the help of your friends Bottle and Pint. If you aren't under the care of a prescribing psychiatrist, it's time, mate.

2 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Just hard to imagine an alternative.

Here's the alternative. You get the treatment you need. You don't have to suffer like this. There is treatment available that can stop the suicidal thinking. Just waiting it out isn't necessary, and it isn't wise. I'll bet anything you like that you don't actually want to die. I'll bet you just want the pain to stop. If I'm wrong, you can fish-slap me with a mackerel down at the pier. Free shot.

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On 8/26/2021 at 2:37 AM, Cerberus said:

Flue, it hasn't been clear in your narratives with us to what degree you are under the care of a mental health professional. You don't post an actual dx, so we don't know if you even actually have one such that you would know exactly what flavor of MI you're coping with.  I sort of get the sense that you're doing the best you can largely on your own with the help of your friends Bottle and Pint. If you aren't under the care of a prescribing psychiatrist, it's time, mate.

Dysthymia is my best guess. Not as dramatic as other forms of depression for the most part but can lead to double depression. Used to mention schizoid as my DX. Sort of fits in many ways but the symptoms can be explained in other ways and I'm probably not a schizoid. Or am I? Anyway, fucked up upbringing, anxiety, isolation, loneliness, self-loathing, attachment issues. Low-key crazy. Had to seek out help myself because nobody seemed to notice. I was seeing a counsellor regularly before the lockdown but haven't seen her since last year. Been a difficult summer for a number of reasons. Not going to kill myself. Yet. Thing is, when situations actually work out well, and you don't know how to reconcile that with the fucked up opinion you have of yourself. I don't know. It's sort of embarassing to go on about suicide when I'm not going to do it. It is how I feel sometimes though. Best I can do is think that yes it is all hopeless, so I can't disappoint myself and might as well give it a go.

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4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

so I can't disappoint myself and might as well give it a go.

If you're applying this to suicide, oh dear me is that mistaken. There are so many ways to fuck up a suicide and leave yourself alive but far worse off, it's a wonder anyone ever actually risks it. And imagine the self-flaggelation: "Fuck. I can't even kill myself properly." Just don't go there.

4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Not going to kill myself. Yet.

Note to self: Fluent In Silence is not prohibited from using the word 'Yet' in posts. Omit 'yet'. Auto-replace instance of 'yet' with 'because that would solve nothing.'

 

4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Dysthymia is my best guess.

What is this guessing? While no one is permitted to prescribe psychoactive medication on the basis of plain guesswork, at least a Pdoc is using educated guesswork based on intensive study in the specialty. Unlike, say, you. (Yet. Note that I'm still allowed to use 'yet'.)

Pay special attention to this passage: Had to seek counselor -> was seeing counselor -> stopped seeing counselor -> difficult summer follows. While there may be no steaming pile of something odorous to prove that COVID caused the inability to have a counselor available during these difficult times, it can't be ruled out as a significant factor. On the other hand, you can't demonstrate that it wasn't an important factor.

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17 hours ago, Cerberus said:

If you're applying this to suicide, oh dear me is that mistaken. There are so many ways to fuck up a suicide and leave yourself alive but far worse off, it's a wonder anyone ever actually risks it. And imagine the self-flaggelation: "Fuck. I can't even kill myself properly." Just don't go there.

I was talking about life there rather than suicide. Quite a miserable thing to say anyway so no wonder you misunderstood what I meant. The idea that I have nothing to lose by trying if the alternative is suicide. So might as well give life a go. But I don't know what it will take. My life is objectively better than it was several years ago - I go out, I'm less afraid of talking to people, and I have some sort of goal to aim at. And yet still miserable sometimes. I might feel better in a month or so. Uni starts again and I'll have something better to occupy my mind with.

I think I mentioned somewhere how my encounter with mental health services led nowhere. Dysthemia is a guess, but an educated guess I hope. Never quite crazy enough for a straight jacket (or, never overtly crazy enough to get help. Although it really should have been fucking obvious to my family that I needed help on ocassions) but it's been enough to make a mess of my life. I do wonder if there's really any way undo all the damage. One of the problems of long term depression is that this is my normal. Mental health professionals often talk about getting back to how you used to be, but there is no normal happy me to aim for. Never happened. It's unexplored territory and being miserable is more comfortable and familiar. But I hate it. I don't like being so numb and so self-obsessed in a destructive way. Numbness worries me because I don't think I care about anyone sometimes, including myself, and this leads to self-loathing, which is just more self-obsession. And I probably should be saying all this to a mental health professional.

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3 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

I think I mentioned somewhere how my encounter with mental health services led nowhere

My first encounter with mental health care, as a depressed adolescent, came in the form of a young counselor whose opening gambit was to take me outdoors to throw a frisbee with him as a means of developing a rapport.

Kindly, this could be called a misstep. Factually, it was idiotic. Given the subject at hand (me) it’s hardly surprising that that move erected a wall of deep distrust and suspicion between us that he was never able to breach. In the intervening years, I have been in the care of multiple mental health care professionals. For some, I use the term “professional” in a very generous way. Those who were of no assistance to me, or were a poor fit for me, I discontinued seeing (in one case abruptly, and in no uncertain terms). The ones who proved truly beneficial I retained for years - my therapist for 20 years (until his retirement), and my pdoc, whom I have been seeing now for more than a decade. The point is, the idea that you can decide that mental health care isn’t going to work for you after one trial of it is nonsense. It would have been more remarkable, in fact, if you had struck gold on your first attempt and found just the right situation for your specific circumstance. The same applies for meds - sometimes we have to try several before we find the right one that works. You simply don’t try one and then decide, “medicine doesn’t work on me.”

It’s worth giving it another go.

3 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

It's unexplored territory and being miserable is more comfortable and familiar.

Once upon a time in the late seventeenth century in Merry Olde England, there were some people who were not Merry. They were, in fact, miserable, so miserable that they couldn’t stand it. They decided they had to find a new home. But where to go? France? Please. They were miserable, not insane. No, they upped stakes and went to the Νetherlands, and managed to be a little less miserable for a little while, but the problem was, the people were friendly but they couldn’t spell ‘sea’ properly, and all-in-all, it just wasn’t England and couldn’t be made into England because it was inconveniently but firmly occupied by the Dutch.

So these miserable people moved again. This time, knowing that they couldn’t go back to misery in England, they instead sailed off to a spot on the map marked Unexplored Territory. They arrived, after a tedious ocean voyage, at the shore of an unspoiled and vast territory, plonked down an English flag, named the place Plymouth Colony, and began a new life in a New World in which they shed the constraints that had caused their misery back at home, and began to define an entirely new misery for themselves on their own terms. Because that’s what people do. In any case, they stuck it out, and their miserable little enclave eventually became the miserable nation known as the United States of America. They may have been miserable, but at least they were free, and brave.

At the risk of undercutting my own point, I suppose it must be pointed out that, considering their strict negative views on most matters of pleasure and sex, it could be fairly argued that if anyone could ever truly be said to have enjoyed being miserable, it was the Puritans.

I have more than once been told, by tdocs and pdocs, that I “enjoy being miserable”. I instantly and forcefully correct that notion. I do not enjoy being miserable. I fight an internal war against it every day. I remind these people that the reason I continue to pay their exorbitant fee is that I don’t enjoy being miserable, and wish to stop. If they’re telling me that I’m not progressing because I don’t want to leave some sort of comfortable wallow-hole I’ve created in my misery, then they’re simply not paying attention to what I’m saying.

It has been a very, very long time since I have been happy, assuming that I ever truly have been. I have an inkling that I might possibly have had a few moments of it as a child, before mental illness set in and puberty arrived to scuttle any hope of recovery. I know this isn’t ‘normal’ - this can’t be normal, because no human being should have to live like this. I refuse to accept that misery is my ‘normal’. You shouldn’t accept it either. If you do, you might as well move to France.

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10 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

I think I mentioned somewhere how my encounter with mental health services led nowhere.

Not sure how many mental health professionals you have available to you but my first psychiatrist (when I was a rather uncooperative teenager) was a 5-minute encounter never to be repeated. I managed without psych meds (but with other major therapy and supports) until crap really hit the fan years later. That time I lucked out on getting in with a psychiatrist that was a better fit (recommended to me by a friend who also was seeing this psychiatrist). It's now 19 years later and I'm still seeing the same psychiatrist. She got me back to working and then completing college and functioning fairly well for at least 7 years, so it's not like I've remained stagnant with her.

My first two psychologists as a teenager (well, one might have been some other type of therapist) were also a total mismatch/fail and didn't last more than 2-3 sessions. But we did find a really good family therapist when and where we least expected it. She was good (at least for family therapy). Later I somehow got referred to a psychologist that I could work with. Many good years with him, then went off to college. Came back to him in crisis a few years later and picked up where we left off. But eventually we weren't making progress and either he or I ended it (kind of traumatic for me since I had been treated by him for so long so I don't remember exactly how it all ended/imploded).

Over the next few years, tried two psychologists that came highly recommended. Didn't make it past one session with either. Not sure if I wasn't open to therapy at the time and/or if they were a bad fit. So I eventually decided to go back to no therapy since I was functioning somewhat ok. Fast forward 5-7 years or so and I'm at another crisis point so need more than just my psychiatrist. Got lucky on my first try and have been seeing this psychologist now for 7 or 8 years.

Before scheduling with this psychologist, I did do some basic screening/research on psychologytoday and the internet in general to weed out the ones that were really "out there"* and/or not a good fit for me based on their self-authored profiles. Good grief, I guess there really is a lid for every pot. Before psychologytoday and a fully fleshed out internet, it was a bit like blind dating. I've never been on a blind date but getting recommended or referred to some of these psychologists sure felt like it. I walked, sat down, and didn't know what I would encounter. I suppose psychologists might feel the same way at each new appointment--only they're trained for the experience and getting paid for it.

*Sorry, but I don't want to delve into my past lives as a reincarnated being and reintegrate my soul self (or selves?). No Christian-based therapy, nothing "heart-centered" or "revolutionary" please, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to explore anything through bodily movement. No offense, just not for me. But as I said, a lid for every pot.

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I've seen a counsellor for years and she has helped me a lot. However bad I sound now I used to be a lot worse, and she's done a lot to make me at least functional. I'll always appreciate that but I was thinking of stopping seeing her even before the lockdown. Though I do feel guilty that I haven't said goodbye properly. Couldn't have come this far without her, but not sure I can go any further with her. I probably lied to her because I didn't want to disappoint her. God but I'm doing fine really. Just don't appreciate it. Things to feel proud of. I got 85/100 for my essay on gender development. I gave a best man speech at my brother's wedding in front of a lot of people (didn't mention AIDS). All things I never thought I was capable of doing. Why can't you feel proud of yourself you fucking arsehole?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm probably over the worst of it. It comes and goes unpredictably. Or maybe not so unpredictable. When I isolate myself I feel worse. I've gotten back in contact with a couple of friends. Thought I'd ruined everything and that they hate me. Nah. You don't hate me? Why not? Me alone is a bad idea. I just turn on myself. But then I assume that I'm shit and everyone hates me anyway. Why burden anyone with my shit? And I need other people in order to be something other than a miserable piece of shit. See! They don't hate you! But my instinct is isolation, because they probably hate me anyway and blah blah blah. Flat earth. Who hates me? Well there are some people on youtube ... Who hates me whose opinion I care about? It's so fucking difficult though. Can't think anything good about myself but sometimes put on a false show of arrogance because that's how you're meant to feel I imagine. This comment needs some sort conclusion.

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54 minutes ago, Fluent In Silence said:

But my instinct is isolation, because they probably hate me anyway and blah blah blah. Flat earth. ... This comment needs some sort conclusion.

Okay. Here it is: From now on, every time you say, think, or write something shitty about yourself, it means you're actually a Flat-Earther. Because if you believe that obvious bilge about you, you'll believe anything. Every time you think to yourself, "I'm a miserable piece of shit", you have to envision yourself standing on a flat planet. And because both things are false, you can't prove that either of them is true. So you'd be basically talking out your arse. Which would make you...flat-ulent.

And if you don't knock it off with the self-brutalizing, I'm going to abuse my Admin powers (again) and set up a text filter so that every time you type "miserable piece of shit" it's going to come out as "keen humorist and all-around swell bloke". And if that doesn't dissuade you, I'll make it read "proud supporter of Boris Johnson".

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17 hours ago, Cerberus said:

"proud supporter of Boris Johnson".

Oh God no! It is odd that I can be so rational in other ways. Show me the evidence! But then "everyone hates me". Who? When? What am I basing this on? But maybe I'm right. I am right! I might have skipped something there. Like logic. Not good enough when talking about whether the earth is flat or whether ghosts exist. The earth is round and there's no such thing as ghosts and my existence isn't offensive to most people. I haven't met most people. Some people like Trump and Johnson, so there's probably someone out the who's stupid enough to like me. I go to talks by the skeptics society, because I am interested in science and rational thought. They're holding their first talk in person for months tomorrow, and I asked people from my psychology course if they were interested in going. I don't really know anyone well because our lectures have been online, but I was asking if anyone wanted to go to this talk with me. The talk is called "The vagina mystery". Occured to me that I'm asking people who I don't know very well and haven't met in person, most of whom are women, whether they want to go to a talk about vaginas with me. That's a bit weird isn't it? I mentioned that this might seem a bit weird and they laughed. Everyone hates me! Nah they don't.

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4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

I go to talks by the skeptics society, because I am interested in science and rational thought. They're holding their first talk in person for months tomorrow, and I asked people from my psychology course if they were interested in going. I don't really know anyone well because our lectures have been online, but I was asking if anyone wanted to go to this talk with me. The talk is called "The vagina mystery".

Please report back on "the vagina mystery" talk. Inquiring minds would like to know... 

One university I went to had a "Spring into the vagina" talk that took place annually (in the spring of course). There was an elaborate puppet vagina thing made out of lovely different kinds of fabric for demonstration purposes as far showing the different parts (labia, etc.). It was a fun informal little lecture and Q&A thing. I think the name of it might have caused controversy one year (can't remember). Not sure why "Spring in the vagina" would cause a kerfuffle as the same school also held a performance of the Vagina Monologues most years (as do a lot of universities I think?). Or at least the second university I attended also had a performance of the Vagina Monologues. It's like a rite of passage/part of the curriculum or something at liberal art colleges (or at least the ones I attended).

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4 hours ago, Fluent In Silence said:

I go to talks by the skeptics society, ... The talk is called "The vagina mystery".

I think I can lay your skepticism to rest there. Vaginas do, in fact, exist.

As to ghosts, and other matters paranormal, I - who refuse to be irrational - maintain an open mind. One cannot embrace science if one closes one’s mind to any possibility, however unexpected. There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Feel like I am dying all the time. Being dead sounds fine to me right now, but feeling like I am constantly dying is terrifying and exhausting and getting really old. It's funny how I am so familiar with this state, yet it never fails to shock and horrify me. If it were something *external*, scary, and familiar would I become inured to it?

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20 hours ago, aquarian said:

Please report back on "the vagina mystery" talk. Inquiring minds would like to know... 

One university I went to had a "Spring into the vagina" talk that took place annually (in the spring of course). There was an elaborate puppet vagina thing made out of lovely different kinds of fabric for demonstration purposes as far showing the different parts (labia, etc.). It was a fun informal little lecture and Q&A thing. I think the name of it might have caused controversy one year (can't remember). Not sure why "Spring in the vagina" would cause a kerfuffle as the same school also held a performance of the Vagina Monologues most years (as do a lot of universities I think?). Or at least the second university I attended also had a performance of the Vagina Monologues. It's like a rite of passage/part of the curriculum or something at liberal art colleges (or at least the ones I attended).

I didn't go in the end. I used to go to these talks with a friend who I've just got back into contact with, but she's getting over having Covid at the moment (vaccinated but it probably still sucks) and couldn't attend. Without meaning to sound pervy it is something I'm interested in. I've heard about how a lot of women are quite ignorant about their bodies and I wonder what the explanation of this is. Failure of the education system? Social taboo? There was a study a while back where women visiting a gynaecologist were given a questionaire which included labelling the parts. A lot of woman were completely clueless. It's odd to me as a man because all men are intimately familiar with their genitals. Maybe too familiar. That can make you blind (no it can't). But I know there's often the thing of seeing men as the default. A while back I saw a medical diagram of a breast. Nothing sexy about it. It showed the milk ducts. But why haven't I seen such an image before? Only 50% of the population. And I was interested in what she might have said about this.

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6 minutes ago, malachite said:

Feel like I am dying all the time. Being dead sounds fine to me right now, but feeling like I am constantly dying is terrifying and exhausting and getting really old. It's funny how I am so familiar with this state, yet it never fails to shock and horrify me. If it were something *external*, scary, and familiar would I become inured to it?

I'm probably going to sound annoyingly positive because I've recently started to come out of a deeply depressed mood. I'll try not to sound annoying. I know how irritating it is to hear shit like "why don't you look on the bright side?" I know that you really can't when you feel that low. Yes kittens are cute but then there's the horror of existence. As great as kittens are they don't seem enough. One thing I always feel when I'm at my lowest is that this the truth, and things will never get any better. They can be better, although say that to me when I'm depressed and I might tell you to go fuck yourself. I've had depression since a young age and I still deal with it badly. Meditate, exercise, talk to people, stay away from alcohol. Is what I should do. Or drink too much and go through my music library listening to all the most depressing songs I have. Not really a choice. Slipknot and beer every time. But I'm an idiot. So this is all terrible advice but I do think I know how you feel.

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