Kicking Clonazepam

[Jemini]

This has been moved from the whatever board as per the original poster's request by groovyone.

As some who know me know, and all who don't don't, I've been struggling for some time to work my way off meds, with fits and starts and mixed success. I'm down to just Clonazepam (generic Klonopin), currently at just .25 mg, twice a day. The final stretch from some to none is the hardest it seems, and I'm having some mild symptoms at this low dosage that are unpleasant. Anyway since I've always been helped by meditation, writing, and anything else that brings awareness and expression to what I'm experiencing, and also since many have brought up the difficulties with benzo dependence recently, I thought I'd write here about what I'm going through. Feel free to chime in with whatever you like.

So since dropping from .75 to .5 (a 33% reduction), I've been able to go to work, maintain a fairly positive mood, and have only gotten really agitated when dealing with my mother a couple of times (nothing new there).

Nothing feels like it's sliding downhill, but I find I'm having some difficulty being articulate when speaking, which is probably a mirror of somewhat disorganized thought processes. Writing in my journal I see my handwriting deteriorating. Today, Saturday, I keep thinking I've decided what to do with my day and then I change my mind, the result of which is I've been up for over 6 hours and haven't showered or left the apartment.

Very slight anxiety and creeping concerns about my financial, social, love, familial, and career prospects come up, but I'm basically able to remind myself that I'm doing what I can with these things and that some of the extra anxiety is withdrawal from the medication. By doing this I am able to calm myself and feel fine.

When I sit still or am in a quiet activity like reading, I notice that I can hear an audible white noise in my head. But no ringing in the ears, and my body isn't oversensitive, like when I can't stand to have bare arms or legs touching each other. I've had those withdrawal symptoms in the past, going off the drug more quickly. My ability to concentrate on reading or making plans for the day is right in line with the concept that there's too much noise in my head. I read a page, then want to close my eyes and rest a bit. I watched TV this morning for a while but eventually decided I was just stalling.

The overall effect of the withdrawal, which fits the understood neurology of benzos, is that my mind/brain is too noizy, too easily shaken from baseline by any sort of stimulous. So I tend to avoid other people, not engage in anything requiring too much concentration, and keep wanting to sleep, sleep being one way the body restores balance. I meditated a bit half an hour ago, and was surprised just how hard it was to focus on my breath for even 5 breaths at a time, and by how many large emotional issues jumped into consciousness immediately, including my ex who I haven't thought about too much in the last year. After meditating, the white noise was gone and I felt a little rested, but still hesitant to shower, get dressed, and go do something with my day. I believe I need to get out and get some stimulation, even as part of the adjustment to being off the drug. To upregulate my GABA receptors or whatever. But I don't seem to be motivating.

Most of these effects are more pronounced late in the day, when I've only had my morning dose. I often don't take my second half a pill until late in the evening. On a positive note, I haven't been at this low a dose in a year (when a crazy pdoc decided to stop me cold having just met me), and I've been far more unsettled when tapering down to slightly higher doses.

I guess I'm wrestling with myself too about the fact that I told my mother I'd go rake her yard this weekend, and a friend from my acting class left a message saying to give him a call and maybe hang out, and I told another friend from a support group that I'd contact him about getting together this weekend (something we've never done), and I can't figure out if I want to see *anyone* or if I'd rather sleep, go to the bookstore, go out for a long walk (it's cold but sunny), or attempt to work on some writing and research at the library. Even the long walk feels somehow like it's too taxing, but I don't know how much of that is conditioned helplessness and how much is legitimate need to not get too stimulated right now. As crazy as that sounds. Such are benzos.

Overall, I feel decent. I'm glad I'm posting this. But I wish I felt more up to being around people. I don't want to be incoherent around anyone. Plus the friend from my acting class would likely be wanting to drink and or get high, and as much as that might make me relax, it's probably counterproductive.

Thanks for reading!

[scarlet_faery]

Jemini,

At least, my dear, you don't feel like there's bugs walking all over you like I did back in July when I ran out of my pills.  I had to go to the ER because I thought there were tiny red ants crawling all over me like what happened to Nick Stokes on CSI.  Plus, the ringing in my ears was unreal.  I also had eight anxiety attacks in 24 hours!  I was miserable to say the least.

Keep up the great job!  You can do it!  I know you can!

Elizabeth

[Jemini]

Update: insomnia!

8(

[Jemini]

Another update:

Insomnia passed.

I skipped my meds all day today sorta kinda on purpose but not really. I'm about to take the full .5, but what I experienced today was being a bit foggy and not spectacularly productive. My roommate got back from visiting his folks and we chatted tonight and I was kinda animated but not all hyper-caffeinated-like like I have typically been when missing a dose (when I was also on higher dosage). And I've been able to reel it in with consious effort and sit and be quiet.

Right now I feel pretty much like someone who has been awake for 20 hours, even though I've been sleeping normal 8 hours and got up around 9. I imagine I'd be awake very late if I didn't take my pill at all, but this is *much* better than whacked out withdrawal I've had in the past. I feel more coherent than I think I sound. Haven't felt any desire to drink any alcohol in recent months, and none today, although I had a little wine with Thanksgiving dinner.

Also I seem to be writing and thinking all ADD-ey at the moment, which is I don't know what about.

[Jemini]

Oh and my heart rate feels a little too high, or maybe it just feels wrong that I can feel my heart rate at all.

[blackbird]

Good luck in kicking benzos, I know what a bitch it can be. Have you entered yet or gone past the crazy dreams stage?

[Jemini]

Nope. The transition has been extremely gradual, after my bad experiences stopping more quickly in the past. No dreams standing out at least. It helps that it's the dark months now, which aren't so manicky to begin with. Also I've been writing a lot which has helped me (I believe) process a lot of the emotions that may be getting freed up. Overall it's been easier (so far) than quitting drinking (which people always seem to do cold-turkey!).

On that note: update:

Doing pretty good, got past the holidays OK. I had a couple glasses of wine last night, in part because I went to have dinner with my mother and wasn't able to stop home and get my second .25 mg pill. First time I've drunk (?) any alcohol specifically because I anticipated needing to calm myself. Results were mixed. I *was* calmer, and I didn't explode into rage or otherwise start living in flashback-land, which is pretty much the norm when I get together with my mother. But I didn't sleep as well as I would have liked and I felt that slight unhealthiness that comes with drinking more than is... healthy I guess. It's weird, too -- I could actually feel the parts of the... medicatedness that seem to be identical with Klonopin and alcohol (presumably related to GABA) while at the same time noticing the things that were a little off because I hadn't had the Klonopin. Like I was definitely calmer and more relaxed and more positive than if I'd had neither, but there was still a slight level of noise or vibrating or buzzing that I associate with missing the Klonopin.

Anyway today was fine, and I feel pretty level-headed, focused, and emotionally neutral but not flat right now. A little tired, but hey I replaced a small roof today.

I'm starting tentatively at .375 mg starting today -- .25 in the morning, .125 at night. Seems like I'm actually needing 2-3 weeks at least to adjust to these tapers, although the last was from .75 to .5 (33% reduction) and this one is only a 25% reduction.

[Jemini]

Update:

I've been down to .375 mg for several days, and will probably stay at this dose. Will update sig in a few more days. In general, I feel fine, though a little more tired and have occasional headachy feelings. A vague feeling that's hard to describe too, like everything's throbbing a tiny bit. But basically fine. Also I seem to have changed into a big fuzzy bear head.

My mood is maybe a bit below neutral, though it is friggin' winter and dark outside by 4 and today it snowed and my car was impounded this weekend for failing to re-register at the end of fucking November and this is going to cost me a few hundred dollars I had planned on spending on X-mas presents or food or something and all of this is making me think some more about grad school, software jobs, or doing what I'm doing now. So my mood is probably better than expected all things considered.

[chimpmaster]

Valium (Diazepam) can be very helpful in kicking a benzo habit - even with long acting benzos like klonopin. 

You can discuss this option withy your dr - sometimes even small amounts take the edge off.

Key goals in and while quitting benzos might include :

- becoming an "as required user" rather than a daily user, which would be no more than 3-4 doses per week, or if applicable, reducing the situational dependency level on the drug

- not tapering off too quickly.  The shock to the system can be quite horrific.  I experienced this going cold turkey off xanax earlier this year.  Ive had symptoms that include vertigo, classic migraines and seizures trying to get off xanax too fast (klono usually isnt as bad as xanax as even though its the 2nd strongest benzo, it is long acting).

- transitioning to a low dose of valium and then tapering off that (medically supervised of course)

Good luck, stay strong, and dont kill yourself over this.  The goal is to feel good and take your time. If it feels too fast (the taper) then you can be pretty damn sure that it is.

[Jemini]

Thanks chimp. I currently have no pdoc, nor do I have health insurance. And my income is barely covering expenses (if that). So I'm holding off on finding another doctor until I see how the withdrawal goes. At my current dosage, the final refill I just filled will last 4 months, and I expect to be off Klonopin in 2 months.

Update:

Very bad week. Started smoking pot. Moods dropped some, my mind is all over the place, I feel despondent. Didn't help that I had a MASSIVE amount of stressors all happen at once, none of which did I see coming. Short version:

Was going to help my boss with some stuff at his house (for no pay) and got pulled over half an hour from where I live, my car towed and impounded, for my registration which had expired 2 days earlier. I didn't know this as they had put a hold on my registration because I had an unpaid parking ticket. I didn't know about the ticket because I had made the mistake of trying to pay it online, and the site had looked up my license and told me I had no outstanding tickets, which as the clerk explained when I paid my ticket, was because anything older than 90 days wouldn't show up on the online system. Of course not. Total cost, not including work missed: $460.

The day after my car was impounded, and the day before I got it back, it snowed heavily. This was last weekend. The same day, my boss, who lent me his van, got rear-ended and mildly hurt his neck. Since he had already needed to take a few days off this week to appear in court and is buried in filing past taxes, I said let's take the week off.

Same day I e-mailed my father to say it's not healthy that we're not communicating. He replied two days later that his understanding is that I was angry at him this summer for refusing to give me further financial assistance, which is completely wrong, and also that he's sending me $1500 as a "christmas bonus". He told me I have no right to be angry at him, and he would prefer that we still not communicate. For the record, the reason I had told him I was angry at him in the summer was that he refused to communicate with me, and I repeatedly pointed out that I had never asked him for money.

So the upshot of my week was: spent $460 I didn't have (add to growing debt), made a failed attempt to reach out to my father, missed a week's work (thereby losing a week's pay), was able to sit around dwelling on just how secure my job really is, and to make it all more bearable got stoned a lot.

Not a good week. But, still taking Klonopin at .375 mg, and all the nasty things I'm feeling right now are pretty much on par with a sudden week-long stint of pot-smoking. I don't have any of the classic benzo withdrawal symptoms, although I'm finding it a bit hard to motivate and get anything done, which could be pot or it could be benzo withdrawal.

After many long rants on the boards, which have probably alienated a few people who knew me and annoyed others, but have also been helpful to me and to others, I've come to realize I can't do this to myself with the pot. It's the same reason I quit several years ago. It's counter-productive to do something I know will set me back and be an obstacle to being healthy, which then breeds guilt and shame all while making me steadily less coherent and less productive.

Also I don't think it would be wise to lower the Klonopin any further until I can make sure I'm done with this pot-smoking, as that doesn't qualify as "stable" to me. Nothing against pot smokers, by the way. This is just not a good thing for me right now.

I'm fairly certain I'll be stoned again in the near future, so don't think I'm a hypocrite. I'm aware that it's not helping me no matter what I'm doing.

Oh and when I said "short version" I was obviously lying. I left a lot out though.

[celestia]

J sez:

Same day I e-mailed my father to say it's not healthy that we're not communicating. He replied two days later that his understanding is that I was angry at him this summer for refusing to give me further financial assistance, which is completely wrong, and also that he's sending me $1500 as a "christmas bonus". He told me I have no right to be angry at him, and he would prefer that we still not communicate. For the record, the reason I had told him I was angry at him in the summer was that he refused to communicate with me, and I repeatedly pointed out that I had never asked him for money.

HB sez:

Wow. This scenario puts the *fun* in dysfunction. It's a total contradiction. No offense, but your dad sounds like a wingnut. If I'm reading the above paragraph correctly,

a.  your dad thinks you're mad at him because he refused to give you money this summer, even though you told him your true reason for being mad, but...

b.  he's giving you a *bonus* of 1500.00, and

c.  he's asking you to to leave him alone.

It sounds like a total buy out, and not subtle AT ALL! If that were me, I would tell him to shove his money us his ass. If I had to turn tricks to pay my rent. Then I would tell him to fuck off and have a nice life. (so easy for me to say!)

After many long rants on the boards, which have probably alienated a few people who knew me and annoyed others, but have also been helpful to me and to others

I feel this way all the time. Your posts are long, so are mine, that's how Evelyn Wood made a fortune. Or, as we learned in college, read the first and the last sentence in a paragraph! Or, as we learned in life, fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. There is always the delete and ignore buttons.

But seriously, my therapist says I'm paranoid, and I tend to believe him. I know I annoy SOME people (perhaps you're one, in which case refer to paragraph 2, sentence number 4...;-) But I'm not all that important to annoy a large population of people, real or cyber. So keep posting. I for one learn a lot from what you share. At a minimum, you (and others here) help me improve my own writing! I

I've come to realize I can't do this to myself with the pot. It's the same reason I quit several years ago. It's counter-productive to do something I know will set me back and be an obstacle to being healthy...

This is precisely why I want to get off benzos. I see them as an obstacle to my overall health. My anxiety was situational (the illness and death of my beloved.) And the situation has gone on for 4 years. Enough. I had a spell of panic attacks in my 20s, but other than that I have spent my whole life coping with anxiety without anti-anxiety drugs, so I think I can spend the rest of my life coping too. And I can't do some of the other things I need to do with my body/mind/spirit in the "flattened" state I'm in on 10 mgs of Ativan per day. Although, I have begun the tapering process, switching to Klonopin and pdoc knows I want off all of the benzos. I will never give up my AD, but that's me. The key for me is mood alteration. I don't want to take anything that alters my mood.

Also I don't think it would be wise to lower the Klonopin any further...

I plan to taper over a period of months. I was on Ativan for over 5 years, so I'm going to take my time getting off ze benzos.

I'm fairly certain I'll be stoned again in the near future, so don't think I'm a hypocrite. I'm aware that it's not helping me no matter what I'm doing.

I think you have clearly established a baseline of rigorous honesty, with yourself and us.

Oh and when I said "short version" I was obviously lying. I left a lot out though.

You and several others here are in part responsible for motivating me to make this change (getting off benzos) in my own life. Your long, well thought out, well written posts have helped me and I know I'm not the only one. I see these boards as a journal that talks back. You have circumstantial shit going down that is stressful. If dumping it here helps, go for it. You give back too, so stop worrying about that. m'kay?

The Weed Lecture:

The weed may help you momentarily, but it DOES tend to make one stupid. Which seems very counterproductive to everything you are working very hard at to accomplish. Plus, the expense? Are you kidding me? Why...back when I was a kid, walking to school in bare feet, in the snow, up hill both ways, smoking a j  B) ...jesus, pot has become soooooooo expensive! It's ridiculous.

HB

[Jemini]

honkingbird,

Thanks as always for your words. They mean a lot.

Re: my dad. Wingnut. Yes.

It sounds like a total buy out, and not subtle AT ALL! If that were me, I would tell him to shove his money us his ass. If I had to turn tricks to pay my rent. Then I would tell him to fuck off and have a nice life. (so easy for me to say!)

Actually that's pretty close to what I said to him this summer. Except I didn't tell him to fuck off, and have tried to contact him a few times since, always leaving me emotionally wasted. Last time we spoke was July. Last time I called, a month ago, he said "Hello?", I said "Hi, dad?" and he put the phone down and continued typing on the computer. He has the emotional capacity of a brain-damaged chimp.

I have spent my whole life coping with anxiety without anti-anxiety drugs, so I think I can spend the rest of my life coping too.

Fucking. A.

About your plan -- most clinics that detox people off benzos (that's right) and doctors who specialize in benzo addiction switch people *off* Klonopin or Xanax onto longer-lasting benzos, with Valium being the ideal (assuming you aren't needing a benzo for seizures). Klonopin is one of the hardest to quit.

We know I am not for psychiatric cures, but if anyone follows my example to quit meds you should do your homework, read up on the dangers and necessary precautions, and if at all possible work with your doctor (as you say you are). I've learned a lot but things I say are second-hand at best. Good luck getting off them. Feel free to post more in this topic if you like.

[celestia]

About your plan -- most clinics that detox people off benzos (that's right) and doctors who specialize in benzo addiction switch people *off* Klonopin or Xanax onto longer-lasting benzos, with Valium being the ideal (assuming you aren't needing a benzo for seizures). Klonopin is one of the hardest to quit.

I'm not going to stay on Klonopin long, and actually I asked for it on Friday just until I see him this Thursday. My rationale being Ativan is shorter acting, and I just didn't want to take it ANYMORE. I want just enough to get through the physical withdrawal without bugging out. It could very well be I will get a script for something other than Klonopin on Thursday, all I know is Klonopin is longer acting than Ativan and doesn't hit me like a shot of tequila (like Ativan does).

Thanks for the input, I will definitely be posting about this. I'm going to TRY and use the same strategy with benzos I used with cigarettes. Once I'm through the physical withdrawal (the habituation thing), then it's mental (the addiction thing). Cravings are wicked, but they pass--and quickly. We'll see...

Thanks, dude!

HB

[Jemini]

Having quit smoking I have to say, that was a hell of a lot easier than Klonopin. It has nothing to do with cravings. When you quit smoking, you can taper down over a pretty short period from a pack a day to a few a day, or quit cold turkey, and within a month off them the cravings are gone and it gets easier from there. Cravings are pretty much the hardest part, and you only need to force yourself to stay away for about 2 weeks before the physical dependency is gone.

Klonopin I've never craved in my life. It's nothing like that. As it leaves my system my brain becomes increasinly erratic. I can't slow down at first, talking like a caffeinated monkey (that can talk). I can't sleep. I start feeling like I've been awake for a couple days, no matter how much sleep I actually get. I start having little shakes and shivers. I stop being able to form sentences that make any sense, and become extremely clumsy. Driving is dangerous. This is what it's like to cut the dosage in half. And it doesn't imrove. The effects don't just go away. They may not ever go away, as sudden withdrawal is a shock that your brain has trouble adjusting to. Nightmare. Eventually I just take the dosage up again so I can function at all.

It's taken me about 6 months to get from 2mg down to .375, and I'm counting on 2 more to get off of it. I'm not experiencing the horrors I just described because I'm doing the taper this slow, but I still have some disturbances right after decreasing the dosage that take as much as a week to ease up. This is much harder than quitting smoking.

[celestia]

Having quit smoking I have to say, that was a hell of a lot easier than Klonopin. It has nothing to do with cravings. When you quit smoking, you can taper down over a pretty short period from a pack a day to a few a day, or quit cold turkey, and within a month off them the cravings are gone and it gets easier from there. Cravings are pretty much the hardest part, and you only need to force yourself to stay away for about 2 weeks before the physical dependency is gone.

Klonopin I've never craved in my life. It's nothing like that. As it leaves my system my brain becomes increasinly erratic. I can't slow down at first, talking like a caffeinated monkey (that can talk). I can't sleep. I start feeling like I've been awake for a couple days, no matter how much sleep I actually get. I start having little shakes and shivers. I stop being able to form sentences that make any sense, and become extremely clumsy. Driving is dangerous. This is what it's like to cut the dosage in half. And it doesn't imrove. The effects don't just go away. They may not ever go away, as sudden withdrawal is a shock that your brain has trouble adjusting to. Nightmare. Eventually I just take the dosage up again so I can function at all.

It's taken me about 6 months to get from 2mg down to .375, and I'm counting on 2 more to get off of it. I'm not experiencing the horrors I just described because I'm doing the taper this slow, but I still have some disturbances right after decreasing the dosage that take as much as a week to ease up. This is much harder than quitting smoking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds downright evil. Why do you think it's like that? Logic would dictate that once it is gone from your system, a physiological process, that the rest is a thought process. I believe you. Another friend of mine said getting of K sent her to the nuthouse. What's giving me pause is that when I was in the nuthouse this summer, the hospital pdoc took me off Ativan and put me on Klonopin. But I had Ativan at home, so I ditched the K and stuck with the A and when I saw my normal pdoc he rolled his eyes at the hospital doc putting me on K and I said, "I want to stay on Ativan." I don't want to be on any of them. Thanks for all the info. I have been reading others' stories about K and the reviews are definitely mixed. I just remember Valium from my dope fiending days and I think I would get hooked on that immediately because I always liked the effect. I want to taper with something that doesn't give me that fondness for the drug. So far, I don't feel any fondness for Klonopin. In fact, the only thing I feel is a lack of the withdrawal symptoms I was having when I stopped taking Ativan and that seems like a good thing. In other words, in times of stress, I can't pop a Klonopin and feel better in 15 minutes. Know what I mean?

I also thought about including an herbal component AFTER I'm down to the level of K you're at now. Kind of the "final phase". My ex used to get Kava root and process it into a nasty beverage, but it had the desired effect on him. Same with Valerian, but not as effective as Kava. We ordered the Hawaiian Black Kava online. Much cheaper and way more potent than the health food store varieties of processed Kava.

<shrug>

FWIW? Your posts don't seem markedly different. If you weren't fessing up about tweaking or being on "the weed", it wouldn't be obvious at least not to me--but that ain't saying much at this point in time. I thought I heard Conway Twitty coming from my Mother's bedroom yesterday and I walked back there, fully expecting to find her housecleaning with the radio on (even though she doesn't like C&W, and there she lay, fast asleep in total quiet. Audio hallucinations. Fucked me up!

OH well, enough, I reckon, for one day.

Sweet dreams (yeah, right!) Fellini is not dead!

[Jemini]

Sounds downright evil. Why do you think it's like that? Logic would dictate that once it is gone from your system, a physiological process, that the rest is a thought process.

Interesting that you ask.

One type of addiction to a drug is psychological addiction. It's been theorized that some drugs, like cannabis, are addictive primarily because the user becomes used to the state of mind itself, and forms habits around this state of mind. When the drug is gone, there is no physical withdrawal per se, but the person doesn't know what to do with their new state of mind and so seeks the drug again to be in a familiar state. I've seen this called "energy-level addiction" as well, which is less accurate.

When there is any physiological dependency, as their is with pretty much every drug, though some drugs like caffeine have a very minimal one, the mechanism of dependency is the same mechanism that causes tolerance to change over a period of sustained use, which is upregulation or downregulation of receptors. The following is maybe a lot of info, but is essential to understanding the answer to your question. To neuroscience people, I apologize for oversimplifying but I'm trying to get the idea across.

Brain cells communicate at the synapse, which is a gap between cells. When one cell fires, it releases neurotransmitters from its dendrites into the synapse. Typically a synapse is flooded with many different transmitters from many different cells. Each transmitter molecule binds with the "downstream" brain cell at a receptor site, where receptors are specific to transmitters. When enough transmitter molecules bind to receptors on one cell, that cell fires of to its downstream cells, and releases its own transmitters.

You with me still?

Well, most psychoactive drugs work by increasing or decreasing the activation of specific receptor types. A common example are SSRIs. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. These drugs inhibit upstream cells from re-absorbing (reuptake) the serotonin molecules that are floating in the synapse, which has the effect of making more serotonin molecules available to bind to receptors. And this in turn has the effect that serotonin pathways (big bundles of cells that use serotonin as a primary transmitter) fire more easily, and therefore certain areas of the brain become more active. The "selective" refers to the fact that these drugs are affecting some areas of the brain more than others, though the reasons why are unknown.

Still with me?

Now what your brain does to counter drugs is interesting. If a particular pathway is overactive or underactive because too much or too little of a particular transmitter is present in the synapse, the nerve cells compensate by increasing or decreasing the number of receptors available to bind. This makes the cells more or less responsive to the transmitters. The result with drugs is that a tolerance is acquired, and more of the drug is needed to produce an equivalent effect.

Different pathways in the brain adapt by upregulation or downregulation at different speeds. A night of heavy drinking causes enough change in receptors to produce a hangover (which is why the "hair of the dog" trick actually works, though much of a hangover is also dehydration and over-extended kidneys and liver).

When you habitually take a drug, your receptors will gradually change in number to the point where your brain has essentially adjusted completely to the drug as if it weren't there. Meaning your pathways are all firing as much as they did before you took the drug, but only so long as you keep taking it. When you decrease the drug level, the receptors are again thrown off, and if the habituation took months or years, worst case is the receptors could take that long to readjust to the absense of the drug.

In the case of benzos, the receptors involved, primarily GABA, are part of the brain's natural calming system, which calms the brain after excessive activity, acts as a natural tranquilizer, and helps regulate the functioning of many other transmitters. What happens over a very quick time with benzo usage is that these systems are co-opted. There may have been a need initially, because the person was suffering such anxiety or excessive electrical activity that the brain's own tranquilizing systems couldn't calm things down, but once the dependency is there, removing the drug is like removing the brain's tranquilizing circuitry completely. GABA receptors have been so upregulated that the brain can't get those cells to fire correctly without the drug.

And so you have a brain that doesn't know how to calm itself. This is a complicated situation, because in order to re-regulate itself, the brain needs to experience a certain level of calm so that, for one thing, its owner is taking enough care of it to allow this stabilization to take place. And if the person is suddenly not just anxious but pushing towards seizures from uncontrolled electrical activity throughout the brain, they may have a harder time doing things like sleeping and eating well and keeping in a routine, and things can go downhill from there.

All of this "withdrawal" can happen well after the drug is complely metabolized and out of your system. The real thing going on here isn't elimination of the drug, it's the much slower process of the brain readjusting to a different chemical reality.

Please tell me you followed that

[celestia]

Please tell me you followed that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FWIW, I learned much of what you said in Psych 101, however, I am by no means fluent or expert as you seem to be, so please still keep it simple. :-) I just want you to know that neuropsychology is not a totally unknown language. I speak it as well, roughly, as I speak Spanish, which is not very well.

I did so much acid, and other illegal drugs, that all these years I've been saying, "hey, look at me, acid didn't fry my brain," are coming back to haunt me.

When I say "so much," I mean I hung out on the fringes of the Rainbow Family and a conservative estimate of how much acid I took in my teens and 20s would be in the 1000s? I don't even have a clue. Not to mention the IV coke, meth and mda phase of the late 70s. I mean, it goes on. Until I had number 1 son at age 28, I was a total dope fiend. Alcohol flowed freely as well. After I had him, I still drank like a fish until I was 34. I'm now 45, and have been on prescription meds forever.

So, my brain is fried. And I have to wonder how that implicates my now drug resistant state and also my experience with stopping drugs.

I could let this be discouraging but I won't. I've been going to a couple of 12 step meetings. I did that before, and I got totally clean, and so I'm employing all my resources to stop benzodevils. Even though I'm not particularly down with the 12 steps, I know people who can help me "not use".

You're awesome for taking the time to break it down for me and anyone else. I did have to read it outloud, even with having some little bit of knowledge of the subject matter. 

HB

[Breeze]

Feel free to post more in this topic if you like.

OK. I will. I have just read your thread, and your vast knowledge of how meds work, and your logic for stopping the klonopin. But, you don't seem better for it. I mean, you are smoking pot now. Seems like you just traded up. Or down.

I think pot is great for anxiety. But like anything else, including benzos, in moderation. I have witnesed it for myself (not me) and I would argue any p-doc's facts and figures for hours. I live with it, it works. But not all day long, and not so much that the world stands still.

Which brings me to my point. If what you say is true, and we who take benzos daily are just "used to them", then why are they still working? I mean, I take Klonopin, a set amount per day. It goes up and down depending on the anxiety levels I am experiencing. But it never goes that far up, and it does work. Always.

So, where I get what you are trying to do,(and more power to you,) do you really think this is working? And, do you really think you will be totally off AND better for it when you are off meds?

I mean, that's quite an impressive list of dx's you have. And you say yourself, you are feeling more anxious since tapering down. even though you are going slowly.

Just curious.

Breeze

[Jemini]

Breeze --

Thanks for sounding neutral. I think it has been going *MUCH* better tapering off than it did when I was yanked off or when I tried to taper much faster. I don't think pot is a replacement for Klonopin -- pot is very destabilizing and not something I consider medicinal. It's relaxing, escapist, and a bad habit.

Klonopin appears to work for the same reason cigarettes appear to make people calmer. Severe habituation of neural receptors has caused the brain to react very badly when the drug is removed. This will happen if you have human physiology. But don't take my word for it.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/contents.htm

It's worth reading for anyone on benzos, but this quote from Chapter 17 addresses your question:

Tolerance to the anxiolytic effects develops more slowly but there is little evidence that benzodiazepines retain their effectiveness after a few months. In fact long-term benzodiazepine use may even aggravate anxiety disorders. Many patients find that anxiety symptoms gradually increase over the years despite continuous benzodiazepine use, and panic attacks and agoraphobia may appear for the first time after years of chronic use. Such worsening of symptoms during long-term benzodiazepine use is probably due to the development of tolerance to the anxiolytic effects, so that "withdrawal" symptoms emerge even in the continued presence of the drugs. However, tolerance may not be complete and chronic users sometimes report continued efficacy, which may be partly due to suppression of withdrawal effects.

[Jemini]

honkingbird -- I wasn't sure how much you do or don't know (though your question made it sound like you're either unfamiliar with or have forgotten about receptor adaptation to drugs). I figured other people read this thread and what the hell.

[celestia]

honkingbird -- I wasn't sure how much you do or don't know (though your question made it sound like you're either unfamiliar with or have forgotten about receptor adaptation to drugs). I figured other people read this thread and what the hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't get me wrong, I didn't feel insulted and there was a lot you shared about that I did not know. I just wanted to let you know I had some familiarity with the language and the most basic of basics. Keep them facts coming! Do you have a comprehensive knowledge of nueropsych? I think it's fascinating, but my studies have been more focused on social psychology. When I grow up, I want to work with Hospice patients and their families on the social work end. I am a born advocate (putting the big mouth to work!)

Right now I'm in early retirement on disability, but I would hope that someday someone will be able to fix my back. My psych difficulties alone are not enough to keep me out of the workplace, although my 19th nervous breakdown was timely in that SSA was making their determination about my disability status at the same time I was about to kill myself. However, my back alone is fucked enough to qualify me as fully disabled.

How are you doing today? I only took 1 mg. of Klonopin this afternoon, and I just took 2 mg. for nighttime. I think that's pretty good. I took my last dose about this time last night (2 mg.) and didn't feel any tweakiness until around 3:00 p.m. today. I'm not taking it just to take it. It does seem to have a wicked hangover and I think we've already been over the tres bizarre dreams! Talk about resolving issues unconsciously. Jeez.

HB

[Jemini]

So, where I get what you are trying to do,(and more power to you,) do you really think this is working? And, do you really think you will be totally off AND better for it when you are off meds?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh and to reply to this -- is it working? Yes, given my goals. Will I be totally off when I'm off the meds? Yes... Will I be better for it? Depends what you mean by better. It is my belief that I have a lot in my past that contributes to anxiety (largely due to hypervigilance and social phobias) and to poor social functioning (ditto, plus some unlearned skills and shitty self-esteem and whatever), all of which leads to depression and other mental maladies. Though I haven't really discussed my understanding of the psychological causes of mental illness and the beneficial, adaptive purpose of depression, mania, and even psychosis, (and have said I won't directly discuss these things on these boards), I believe that coming to terms with my experience, including anxiety and depression, is the key to unravelling who I am and what in my past has not been addressed, whether trauma or skipped development.

I've gotten off most of my meds. I have setbacks, like this past week (clearly involving major stressors, too much idle time, and pot). But I don't understand setbacks to be "recurrence of mental illness". I understand them to be the results of long-avoided issues biting me in the ass and I don't have pills to reach for and mask the feelings that arise. So I do dumb things like score some weed. Or I socially isolate. But I'm *aware* of these things more than I was on meds, not simply because meds reduce awareness (which they do), but because you tend to push things out of your mind if they're not demanding your attention. I'm also starting to take more responsibility for my feelings. This is hard, as when I realize that the reason I'm depressed is because I'm alone in the world and don't have a clue how to proceed; my mother trained me both to be dependent on her and to think I am a horrible monster who ruined her life as well as my own; my father left right after I was born, saw me on weekends and took me to the movies for several years, and recently disowned me for pointing out to him that he'd basically left me and my mother in a very bad circumstance so he could marry one of his grad students who he'd been seeing since before I was born. How do you take responsibility for such feelings? I'm finding out. I'm having to learn something that is impossible to learn while taking drugs or meds (which incedentally are all drugs), which is how to be responsible for my own mental state. The biggest missing piece of my development. It's not easy, but it's what distinguishes the mentally healthy from the rest of us in the end. Finally, I'm sharing my experience and finding real connections with others over experiences that had for years been confined to the context of doctors and hospitals and angry conflicts with family. That connection is healing. That's spirituality in a nutshell.

Now you and many may hear me as high and mighty or delusional and look forward to seeing me fall, but I'm none of these things. I don't know how I'm going to find my way towards better mental health. I don't know if I'll get there or die trying. I don't know if I'll be homeless within a year, to be honest. But I know what mental health is, and it doesn't come in a bottle. It involves being able to adapt to an infinite number of possible things that will inevitably happen. It involves forming a solid place for oneself in the social world, which in turn requires really knowing oneself. Mental health is not something as simple-minded as being in a good mood most of the time or thinking rationally, like normal people do. There are no such people, and I'm tired of drugging myself so I can believe I'm more like these non-existent people.

I've learned more in the past couple of years than in the previous decade, and a lot of that has been in breaking away from the concept that there is something defective in me. Yes, I've had panic attacks, major depression, insomnia, acid flashbacks, serious trouble concentrating, heard voices, become psychotic and paranoid, tried to kill myself, planned on killing myself, threatened to kill myself, stayed up all night speaking incoherently, had PTSD rages overcome me. I do not believe I am "fine" mental-health wise. But I am interested in understanding why I've experienced all these nightmares, and from everything I've learned -- from books, people, experience, life -- there are explanations. They are understandable and rooted in real experience. There is no need to invent mysterious genetic predispositions or random failings of my brain. And I have to tell you, since you asked, I have defied doctors predictions *repeatedly*. Am I now depressed and abusing pot? Yes, but this is a pale shadow of the insanity I've known.

I can't tell you what will happen to me or anyone else. I believe in what I'm trying to do with my life, and I've never believed in psychiatry even for all the years I either consented to take something I KNEW WOULD HELP with my symtoms or "self-medicated" by just telling the doctors what to prescribe or by finding my own damn drugs. I never believed there was something wrong with me that could be cured with drugs. It pushed me to study psychology from age 13, get my degree in it, and it continues to push me to understand the infinite complexity of human experience and the human mind. It's also gotten me rather interested in the social, political, economic, and increasingly religious aspects of the mental health field.

[Jemini]

Update:

Today sucked, for the most part. I forgot to take *any* Klonopin when leaving the house, plus it was my first day back to work in 10 days, plus I was late, plus I didn't have all the paperwork done for my boss that should only have taken me 1 day except I was avoidant all week and smoking pot too.

The day was a long story, but I lifted over 1 ton of garbage (literally), shoveled snow for an hour, and was depressed in particular over two exchanges. One was with a young girl/woman who has worked for my boss and came today to assist him with his paperwork (what am I euphemistically referring to?). I was stopping to eat lunch at his place and sat down with her and found out she's recently finished college and has been working as an interpreter. She asked me if I plan to return to software, and I stammered and couldn't explain/justify why I just can't return to that work and so instead am shoveling my boss's driveway so I can load his van with garbage for the dump. Later, I was telling my boss how hard it is to be dealing with my father's refusal to communicate with me since July. My boss (who I should give a name) is fairly wise about painful family stuff and is somewhat fatherly. He told me, "Listen, the only thing my father ever gave me was $1200 in workman's comp, when he died." I felt torn between the fact that he's revealing something quite painful in his own life (I know he didn't enjoy a good childhood and had problems with his family too) and the fact that I didn't and don't feel very understood.

So anyway (arbitrarily starting a new paragraph), I ended up telling him later that I skipped taking "a pill," which opened the door to explain to him that I've been working my way off benzos. He seemed interested and sympathetic, though I'm sure also concerned that he now knows I'm a mental patient going off my meds. Actually he ended up giving me a real hug when I left his house, which is a far cry better than my last employer who got lawyers involved in figuring out how to fire me without paying severance when I told her I was clinically depressed.

Overall, I give today a 6.

[Jemini]

Forgot to mention -- no pot smoking today, and I feel a little sharper (than being stoned, which I guess isn't saying much). Physical exercize probably helped my mood a bit too, even though my day sucked.

[themind]

If 6 goes on a scale of 1-10...I'd say that's pretty damn decent for a Monday.

I must admit that I admire you for making the go med-free (I'm a little jealous in a way.....)  I totally understand what you mean about medication, psychiatry, and our society's need to medicate away that which is not normal.  (In no way am I saying that people that take medication are wrong.....)

I think that through all the hell you've been through psychologically, you have more insight into your mind than any NORMAL person does.  Through the pain and dysfunction you have found meaning and depth, and that seems like a gift. 

[Jemini]

Thanks. Of course, it has meaning and depth, but the pain still hates me.

I want to go on record also as saying I don't think the meaning of suffering, especially mentally ill flavored suffering, is simple. It's easier to find meaning in anything when you can think straight, aren't being harassed by evil voices in your head, and have the self-will to even give a shit what anything means in this giant dark abyss of misery and nothingness. So drugs do have their place.

[Guest billycat]

Jemini,  I found your explanation of how the brain chemistry changes after long term drug/medication use very helpful.    I dealt with long term morphine use

due to a back injury...for about 18-24 months....after successful surgery I had to deal with the withdrawl  tapering off at first, but the long time it took for my brain to function pre morphine was very difficult.  The dr. and the pharmicist both gave me a VERY condenced and simplified version of yours. I

found your explanation/description helpful,  even though this was a year ago that I went thru it.  Now I have a better understanding of exactly what was happening to me.    I can specificaly recall one evening about 6 weeks after taking my last percocet, I was out to dinner with friends,,,I didn't really want to go, I really felt like crap..but I *had* to.    It was like every nerve ending in my body was screaming..I don't know how else to describe it.  I will never forget that feeling

and how hard it was to keep myself from completly freaking out.  Thanks for the

lesson..'.I was with you'!

OH, during that time is when I started to have  severe anxiety I don't know if the morphine was masking the anxiety or if the withdrawl caused it.

 

[celestia]

So anyway (arbitrarily starting a new paragraph),

Nobody gives a shite about where you put a paragraph, except I think Elvis said, "if you want me to read your shit, hit return every 5 or 10 lines." This is not a writers' workshop! IMO, part of your angst comes from the mind fuck you give yourself from the time you wake up, til the time you go to sleep.

I think it's great that you are shoveling shit and have degrees in software engineering or rocket science or whatever. Humility is a bitter pill. There is nothing wrong with physical labor except it pays shitty, and if the new college grad gal pal of your boss thinks you're a dick for wasting your gifts, then fuck her. Fuck anyone who does not see the inherent spiritual value of shoveling shit.

I'm sorry you SEEM to attach such a stigma to being a "mental patient", at least that's how it reads to me; however, I can't say I would not feel the same vulnerability in opening up at this level to an employer, especially when you've had a bad CORPORATE (hell on earth) experience. That said, your guy sounds like a pretty decent one, and maybe the gods are telling you to trust a bit. A hug is GOOD. Not that you don't need to be wary and cautious, as he is you boss, aka ? And you don't want to get in the habit of TMI, but what you shared with him seems respectably within the parameters of appropriate as in, "hey dude, if I seem a little off my game, this is what's going on." NO BIG DEAL. It's not like you just got back from having your frontal lobe hacked into.

I'm not busting your balls, I just think that you need to throw garbage until your tendency to overanalyze you're own self is eradicated through pure exhaustion, surrender, total "over the rainbow, toys in the attic, truly gone fishing" insanity or whatever the fuck.

Overall, I give today a 6.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

6s are good! Are you fucking kidding me?

Jem, I am growing very fond of you as a fellow seeker. But your intellect is not your friend at this point, IMO, FWIW (which could be shite). I am NOT going to spew 12 step cliches just because I've been to a few more meetings lately. I do want to pass along something I heard there a long time ago. "there is no one too stupid to get this program, but there are LOTS of people who are too smart, and many of them will die."

I said to myself, "if the shoe fits, Cinderella."

I'm not dismissing the difficult and lonely time you're going through and I'm not saying don't keep posting ad infinitum to process all your shit (as if I had any authority to do so,)...now that's funny.

[Jemini]

I think it's great that you are shoveling shit and have degrees in software engineering or rocket science or whatever.

Psychology.

Humility is a bitter pill. There is nothing wrong with physical labor except it pays shitty, and if the new college grad gal pal of your boss thinks you're a dick for wasting your gifts, then fuck her. Fuck anyone who does not see the inherent spiritual value of shoveling shit.

There is no spiritual value in shoveling shit. She didn't think I'm a dick, I do. It is not good to squander ones abilities. But my job more generally is doing carpentry, yesterday I was helping out my boss, which is OK. The real issue is whether carpentry is squandering my abilities.

I'm sorry you SEEM to attach such a stigma to being a "mental patient"

No, that would be the whole population. I'm not ashamed of being a mental patient going off his meds, but most people (including most people on these forums) automatically deem such a person as not to be trusted.

Jem, I am growing very fond of you as a fellow seeker. But your intellect is not your friend at this point, IMO, FWIW (which could be shite). I am NOT going to spew 12 step cliches just because I've been to a few more meetings lately.

Thanks for not giving me the 12 steps. If it weren't for my intellect, I would have been permanently institutionalized several years ago, and what's worse, I'd believe the idiot doctors' assessment that this was the best thing for me. I'm not overthinking anything.

My feelings are coming back with a vengence without my elephant dose of ativan each day. This is cool, I'm on the mood swing--anger to grief and back again. Woo hoo. Foamy sez, "someone should poke you in the eye with a really hot french fry!"

Do you have a sensible taper schedule? You shouldn't just be without an elephant dose of benzos.

[Breeze]

. In fact long-term benzodiazepine use may even aggravate anxiety disorders.

Interesting. Had this very discussion with my p-doc yesterday after I read your thread. She is as she describes herself "very conservative" with allocating Klonopin to me. I hate it and I love her for it. She has explained this to me before (above) and also told me there are plenty of doctors in town who will give me all I want, while pointing to the door.

I am no dummy. A statement like that shows she has my best interests at heart. My life has been such that I must go out in the world and function and my anxiety has been med resistant. Very frustrating. But klonopin works. But klonopin alone does not. What a mess!

I know you are aiming to get off of all meds. But here is a thought. I am taking clonidine now for my anxiety. It works great. It is a blood pressure med ( with your knowledge you probably know this already) and it is working really well for me - better than anything has in the past. I can't tolerate SSRI's or Neurontin. Remeron pooped out on me and made me fat. This has been the med that has been great for my anxiety and not messed with my head.

I work out three days a week - swimming. My p-doc (who is an athlete) says that swimming is great because it focuses on breathing. I had not thought of that but she's right. Our main problem with anxiety disorders is abnormal breathing in times of stress. Swimming helps to teach me even breathing. And I have an awesome stroke now. (lol)

I also meditate. I try and take at least an hour of quiet time a day. And I listen to meditation music when I fall asleep at night. All of this seems to really work for me. I disregarded her suggestions for years, but have found that her ideas that are not medication oriented are aimed at helping me to eventually be med free.

The only bummer part of your post is that I have traded smoking for klonopin. She has likened it more to having a cocktail. I have been sober for 3 years Christmas day. And to think that I "traded up" like I asked you, bums me out. I neither smoke or drink anymore. Seems alcohol was my med of choice when I was younger and I didn't even know it.

But I move forward.

Good luck with your mission, I would simply suggest you need more anti anxiety daily activities. I believe I read you work out. This is great, and so is the meditation. You also write very well.

Breeze

[celestia]

Do you have a sensible taper schedule? You shouldn't just be without an elephant dose of benzos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.

[lei]

hey Jemini,

i just want to acknowledge you for living and sharing your experience, and congratulate you on your healing (not a smooth road, ever.)

in particular i want to acknowledge that (if i gather correctly) you're not on the strict anti-benzo train. for me, at least, they have been the only vehicle to get me to therapy, or the supermarket, or even breathing enough to get off the floor, and thus they have been a lifesaver. therapy (particularly EMDR and bioenergetics) and other practices have been curing me, but benzos make it possible.

Breeze, good to talk about this stuff with you again. the practices that help you have helped me (thus being laid up after surgery was a particular setback, but i'm mostly back on my feet and moving, and it makes a world of difference.) i like your quote, "But klonopin works. But klonopin alone does not." if i had to be on benzos forever OR live in complete fear, i'd choose the former, but for some of us, benzos are thankfully a crutch or cast to support us enough to cope while new circuits form and become strong. i feel no need to rush that process. relative to my lifetime, trauma, and genetics, it's happening swiftly.

my taper is going really well. getting switched from klonopin to valium was the best med move for me ever, and i'm down from 30mg to 17.5. there's still hard days but that is life, especially with recent severe traumas and a genetic history of anxiety on both sides of the family (woo).

the main thing i found about the ashton taper plan is that, for me, it overrates the power of klonopin. i was able to switch to less than 1/2 the "equivalent" valium before tapering. i think it was Chimpmaster who once explained to me why this was so. in any case i used to feel horrible when my klonopin level got low, but valium is a nice, smooth, "okay, i can start doing 1/2 pill less today" experience. for me.

everyone here, thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge. feel free to pm me about this stuff if you like.

love and healing, all.

[lei]

and i guess i wanted to add overall that "everyone is different". i know people who have quit all benzos easily (one of them said that quitting paxil was way worse than quitting klonopin, heroin, and booze, but that nicotine was still the worst), and others who had a hard time. ultimately it's really for each individual and their chosen professionals to figure it out.

but it helps to hear different stories.

above all, i really respect the courage to heal.

aloha.

[Jemini]

Actually I was recently thinking, if I do get off the meds entirely, and get to a point where I feel secure that I'm maintaining stability without meds, how will I deal with the next point in my life when anxiety overtakes me? And my first thought was hmm, maybe I would find a doc to prescribe a little Klonopin! But given how hard it's been to get off it I think I'd probably seek other alternatives (including going apeshit stresso as I've done in my past -- sometimes a meltdown is inevitable).

But no, I am not exactly 100% anti-benzos. I think the universe being as it is, they can be helpful to people. But I wish they were illegal and never prescribed, because the dangers of taking them too long (more because doctors allow this to happen than anyone consciously trying to be on them too long) are extremely high. Yes, different people are different. But understand, for me, Klonopin was a gift from the gods. I went on and on with several doctors about how it lifted all sorts of problems I'd been having. It absolutely did, but one thing I will probably never be able to know is whether this was the case for 5 years or if, after the crisis had passed, I had just come to perceive my "normal" self as the mild Klonopin withdrawal brain and so reinforced the belief that this drug was performing some miracle.

[Jemini]

Update:

Really tired after two nights of 6 horus' sleep, and not firing on all cylinders, but in better spirits than yesterday, which was better than the week before. Also, most relevant -- at a dose of .375 I am no longer able to tell the difference from how I felt on higher dosages. I seem to have acclimated. However, since I smoked pot and had a lot of other stressors (and hey, btw, barely any anxiety through any of this!), and these did affect me a lot, I need to see how I am at this dosage at least 2 more weeks. I'm a little concerned I may not be able to keep off the weed entirely too, which complicates things. Ideally I don't smoke any at all until I've been off the Klonopin and stable for a couple months minimum, so that even if the pot makes me deteriorate, I'll be able to see that the pot is doing this and not smoke it.

OK so mildly incoherent. I worked a partial day, saw my therapist and had an interesting session, and called my mother and talked for an hour. Have found some longer-term goals solidifying, which I talked to my boss and my mother about.

Oh I should mention because it's relevant, the only anxiety symtoms I've had in the past few months have been a bit of restless leg (when sitting at this damn computer), slight insomnia when decreasing dosages (but not really any racing thoughts or obsessing over anything), and stuff that feels more like purely rational worry about the fact that I'm not making enough money to cover expenses, I don't know what I'm going to do for work in the long run, and I don't know how to solve these things. But with this worry, I haven't experienced what I consider anxiety -- can't stop ruminating, can't sleep, stress reactions, can't focus on other things -- none of that. A year ago, if I'd had even a single day at this low a dosage, it would be a train wreck or at best I'd lie in my bed all day, sleeping often.

to be continued...

[Jemini]

Oh and one other symtpom -- whenever I decrease the Klonopin, I start talking a lot more and writing a lot longer. This makes sense, neurologically speaking. As wordy as I can be, I'm actually glad to see that I can rein it in better than when I used to miss a pill at higher dosages. Believe it or not.

I don't even feel like posting right now, btw. Just trying to be thorough for this topic, and the last week has seen a lot of changes.

[Bianca]

So at the dose of .375 is that only taken once a day?  If so waht time?

[Jemini]

I'm trying to do it .125 in the morning (quarter of a .5 pill), and .25 in the evening (half of a .5 pill). But today I did the reverse, because I knew it was going to be an extra socially taxing day. I read a tip that skewing the intake towards nighttime is better if insomnia is a problem, which it has sometimes been for me when I've tried to taper down, or even when I'd miss a dose late in the day.

[Loon-A-TiK]

It seems to me that benzo addiction is like any other drug, just perhaps nto necessarily as "bad" as "hard drugs".

I haven't taken Klonopin since I stopped cold turkey last month as an inpatient, but I took .5mg Ativan today that my mom gave me, because I couldn't take it anymore. Is that addictive behavior? Beats me!

You're not bad at all. It is one of those situations, as I said in the other thread, where you need to give yourself a lot of credit and leeway to sort yourself out and your situation out. People wtihout MI usually don't get into the crappy situations we get into. I hate it that people wtihout MI run the world and make it suck more for us! (Talk about the whole credit score crap. We know we get behind. Why rub it in?)

[Jemini]

I have near perfect credit, inexplicably.

People confuse compulsiveness with addiction. Klonopin isn't (for me) at all compulsive, and in that sense, yes, it's not as "bad as the hard drugs". But benzos are actually considered more dangerous than heroin in parts of Europe, precisely because the physical dependency and extreme adaptation of the brain to the drug is more severe than with heroin. The difficulty quitting has nothing to do with intention (though I shouldn't speak for heroin addicts on this point either, most say they would do anything to stop). It's a matter of not being able to function neurologically without the drug. That's a pretty serious addiction.

[Jemini]

Update:

I've been reporting so much I don't know what to report and what to leave out now...

Went to a support group last night and heard a talk about DBT that was inspiring. Have been helping my boss with some personal stuff and it feels good to be working this week. Smoked a single hit of pot tonight, and am mellow but behaving badly. I've had minor seizury shakes at random moments in the day all week, which I know is from being at so low a dose of the Klonopin, though sleeping 5-6 hours most nights and the pot I'm sure do not help. I've been eating very well this week, which is making me feel more positive, energetic, and calm. And I've been having some really good insights about all sorts of stuff. I talked to my mother for an hour last night and it was a nice conversation. I'm thinking about taking a night class at Harvard Extension as a way to move towards grad school.

My roommate brought someone home and they're laughing real loud in the living room at the TV. I don't want to join them.

[Breeze]

I've had minor seizury shakes at random moments in the day all week, which I know is from being at so low a dose of the Klonopin,

How do you know this? First you are doing this without a doctor? Right? Have you had "seizury shakes" before? I mean before Klonopin?

I have gone off this med, faster than you are, and had none of that. This doesn't mean that you are wrong and I am right, I am just curious how you know it's for sure the klonopin.

You have been at this low dose for so long, it doesn't sound right that this is why you are feeling this way. How about contacting your doctor?

Breeze

PS I wouldn't want to join them either.

[Jemini]

Join who?

I have had these seizure-like shakes in the past, when trying to come off Klonopin. I get them now every time I reduce the dose or miss my pill for the day (as has happened twice since the taper began). I'm not having them now -- they usually last only a few days on the lowered dosage. When I was pulled off Klonopin cold-turkey these shakes got pretty severe and didn't go away for the month I was off the drug, plus I was having other effects that were hard to deal with. They don't feel dangerous and I don't feel close to a full grand-mal seizure. They only last a second or so.

[Breeze]

Join who?

The loud people watching TV. You said they were in the other room being loud and you didn't want to join them. I don't like loud people either.

I get it. I just never had those severe symptoms when I went off cold turkey. I think it is excellent though that you are sharing your experiences. Too many people (myself included) take this med for granted.

I'd be off of it too if it didn't work so well for my anxiety. But I do a variety of other things too, that I mentioned to you, to help with it.

I just finished a 3 session treatment of EMDR for some PTSD. My klonopin use has already come down since the treatments. YAY!

I am at too high a dose, for me, right now. I admire what you are doing.

Breeze

[Jemini]

Thanks, Breeze.

It's actually helped more than I would have thought to post the details here, as I can really keep track of how Klonopin has affected me. It's weird even being able to have a record of my own personality changing as I've been on different drug combos, not just this taper.

Could you imagine if the warning labels on an anti-anxiety drug, originally developed in the US to treat epilepsy, included a note that side effects include alteration of core personality traits (Klonopin)? You know what European doctors were looking into with Klonopin before the benzos were more widely understood as dangerously dependency-forming? They found that it seemed to be affecting people's sociability, and made people more extroverted, which is curious because Klonopin works on the same receptors as alcohol. At what point do doctors start admitting that they really don't know what these drugs are doing?

If you ever felt like writing about EMDR, I'd be interested to know about it. It sounds really interesting.

[lei]

hey Jemini,

EMDR has been like a miracle for me, in healing my anxiety disorders and tapering my benzos.

http://www.emdr.com/

as always, good luck and aloha.

[zsandoz]

I have near perfect credit, inexplicably.

People confuse compulsiveness with addiction. Klonopin isn't (for me) at all compulsive, and in that sense, yes, it's not as "bad as the hard drugs". But benzos are actually considered more dangerous than heroin in parts of Europe, precisely because the physical dependency and extreme adaptation of the brain to the drug is more severe than with heroin. The difficulty quitting has nothing to do with intention (though I shouldn't speak for heroin addicts on this point either, most say they would do anything to stop). It's a matter of not being able to function neurologically without the drug. That's a pretty serious addiction.

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some people just dont get addicted to drugs and every kind of drug withdrawal is different for everyone.  klonopin withdrawal (alcohol also) can lead to seizures and hence may require medical care if the withdrawal is abrupt, whereas heroin is a little more benign withdrawl that also really sucks, but theres no way to compare the two.

[Breeze]

Hey Jem

First off, I did document my three week experience on my thread, it starts here

If I did that right it's post 745 that starts it out. There are a lot of responses to wade through, but if you want to see what the sessions were like and the week after, this is where I wrote about it.

I have done it before, so the fact it only took three sessions is rather unusual. I am also very visual, so this therapy works well for me. I highly recommend it with the right therapist.

which is curious because Klonopin works on the same receptors as alcohol

My p-doc has said this to me countless times. Taking a klonopin is like having a quick cocktail when you are anxious. I used alcohol for years, without realizing that it was really covering my anxiety.

In any event, my p-doc holds back no information from me, and we have butted heads over my use of this med on more than one occasion. I came in on this med, so "we" have been trying to get me off of it for awhile now. I was off for a 6 month period a year or so ago. But that seems like eons ago.

I am inspired by your thread though, I have to do the same here soon.

Breeze

[Jemini]

You're welcome to post your experiences here, if you think others might benefit from having it in the same topic.

[Breeze]

You're welcome to post your experiences here, if you think others might benefit from having it in the same topic.

thanks. It's kinda long, and it is about a PTSD issue, not kicking klonopin. So I think I should leave it where it is.

breeze

[zsandoz]

which is curious because Klonopin works on the same receptors as alcohol

sure but its a cocktail with a 20 hour half-life(!!)

actually benzodiazepines hit similar receptors but in a different way than alcohol.  klonopin has the longest half-life of most benzos which actually can be a drawback because you accumulate clonzaepam levels in your bloodstream that can be pretty high... like drunk all the time.  with xanax and (possibly) ativan, you can take it once a day without significant build-up in your system.

[Jemini]

Klonopin's half-life is about in the middle for benzos. See the chart I posted somewhere. There are benzos with half-lifes of 50-100 hours, like Valium.

[scream_phoenix]

sure but its a cocktail with a 20 hour half-life(!!)

actually benzodiazepines hit similar receptors but in a different way than alcohol.

[groovyone]

sure but its a cocktail with a 20 hour half-life(!!)

actually benzodiazepines hit similar receptors but in a different way than alcohol.

[Jemini]

Well it's fascinating, but it isn't very useful knowledge, is it?

[zsandoz]

sure but its a cocktail with a 20 hour half-life(!!)

actually benzodiazepines hit similar receptors but in a different way than alcohol. 

could you expound on the cocktail part, and how it hits the GABA receptors differently than alcohol?  i'm just curious to learn more.  there was was this business week article that i copied a couple months ago about the search for drugs to beat alcohol addiction, and they explained how the alcohol produces a 'GABA euphoria' feeling, but the brain counteracts this by producing glutamate - which accounts for the painfulness the next day.  and this GABA/glutamate cycle drives the desire to keep drinking etc.  i was just wondering if the the same is true for the benzos, and if part of the pain of coming off of them is the brain releasing glutamate, or if its just mainly the anxiety coming from your brain's GABA ability being less effective.

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OK, benzodiazepines bind to the GABA-A receptor sites in a particular place called the BZD receptor (which does not bind GABA, so its called an allosteric binding site).  this binding increases the affinity for GABA-A to its neurotransmitter GABA.

so unlike gabitril and neurontin which increase the amount of GABA your brain outputs, or alcohol which mimics GABA and directly binds to GABA receptor site where GABA binds (GABA-A included, I believe) and other receptors, the benzodiazepines increase the affinity of the GABA-A type receptors for the neurotransmitter GABA.

thus some caution is advised in mixing benzos with alcohol or GABA-affecting medications like gabitril and neurontin (and depakote, topamax to a lesser extent), because they work through seperate mechanisms that affect GABA and you will get additive or synergistic (the whole greater than the sum of the parts) effects.

[Penny Century]

OK, benzodiazepines bind to the GABA-A receptor sites in a particular place called the BZD receptor (which does not bind GABA, so its called an allosteric binding site).  this binding increases the affinity for GABA-A to its neurotransmitter GABA.

so unlike gabitril and neurontin which increase the amount of GABA your brain outputs, or alcohol which mimics GABA and directly binds to GABA receptor site where GABA binds (GABA-A included, I believe) and other receptors, the benzodiazepines increase the affinity of the GABA-A type receptors for the neurotransmitter GABA.

thus some caution is advised in mixing benzos with alcohol or GABA-affecting medications like gabitril and neurontin (and depakote, topamax to a lesser extent), because they work through seperate mechanisms that affect GABA and you will get additive or synergistic (the whole greater than the sum of the parts) effects.

wow.  thank you.  i never understood this difference in the way each of those things acts on GABA.  cool.

[Bianca]

drinking alcohol on benzos is no good.

[groovyone]

Well it's fascinating, but it isn't very useful knowledge, is it?

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Jemini, all knowledge is useful, is it not? Perhaps I misunderstood what was being asked and went specifically looking for something more to do with benzos and glutamate affinity. 

My pharmacology, even general science knowledge is no match for many people on this board--I have no problem admitting that.  I just thought that something could be gleaned from the up/downregulation effects mentioned and that their occurrence seemed to be conversely related to what happens with alcohol consumption which is what I thought, perhaps mistakenly, was what scream_phoenix was looking for.

But maybe I got it all wrong.  I don't profess to be a mind reader or a pharmocologist, just a moderator on a board trying to help people out.

Respectfully,

Karen

[Jemini]

I'm sorry. I just meant that I'm not sure what to do differently now that I know about the possible connection between glutamate, NMDA, and benzo withdrawal. Knowledge is only useful if you can use it, you know? I'm not dissing the info -- it is interesting definitely.

Isn't NMDA potentiation a primary mechanism by which neural connections are strengthened (or allowed to decay), and therefore a core part of learning at the neurological level? Or is my neuroscience rusty on that point?

Oh and update: I give this week a 4. I'll try to post more later.

[Jemini]

Hmmm I killed my own thread a while back.

Just a quick update: I may be off the Klonopin, but it's too soon to say.

I'd been down to .25 mg for a couple weeks, and haven't taken any since Friday, when I discovered that Kava Kava really takes the edge off the withdrawal. It doesn't match the effects exactly, but it's surprisingly close. I'll post more later on the progress of the last month. 

[groovyone]

I discovered that Kava Kava really takes the edge off the withdrawal.

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Kava Kava used to help me with sleep years ago.  Don't know if it would do the trick now as things seem to have changed in that department with me but that's kind of interesting.

Karen

[celestia]

I discovered that Kava Kava really takes the edge off the withdrawal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kava Kava used to help me with sleep years ago.  Don't know if it would do the trick now as things seem to have changed in that department with me but that's kind of interesting.

Karen

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Karen,

I have a penchant for unstable, brilliant, creative, artistic, but alcoholic men! I say that because the last one was determined to find a way to chill out without alcohol, he just can't drink, we cal it "gutter slut drunkeness", and he smokes week like he has a job or something (I should interject here we've been split for a year), lol but Kava is actually indicated for withdrawal from benzos.

In some ways it was funny, but god, he spent 20 hours a day on Erowid.com becoming a chemist with herbs. And let me tell you Wormwood is the stinkiest. And Kavva is nasty, nasty, nasty to drink. He couldn't use the otc products because they use alcohol in the extraction process.

But he used to get down right tor up on that stuff. Being the ever frugal agorophobic shopper, I found this wonder web site Cielio Herbals in Maryland and we bought the Kava root. It's not an easy process to convert it from a tree root to something that will chill you out, but it worked for him. I drank it a couple times but I couldn't choke it down.

One Christmas, he always ruined the family christmas for his Dorthy Gale mother. He read that if you at whole nutmegs you would get high from them. He perservered and ate 2 or 3 of them ad he had not reaction at all until about 6 hours later and he was totally wasted for about 2 days. And smelled wonderfully like a christmas cookie.

Yup, mom's right--I can pick'em.

[groovyone]

Yeah, Kava is stinky! I would just down it really fast.  But I hated it because I would always have to wake up and go to the bathroom in the middle of the night!

Stoned off a whole netmeg? I just couldn't imagine eating that much nutmeg! Blah.

Wow.  Sounds he like quite the character!

Sorry Jem.  We're hijacking your thread. Heh.

Karen