Why don't people WANT to know about their food?

[CrankyMe]

This has been irking me for a while. I'm not a militant vegan, but I am (as much as I can be) a conscientious vegetarian - I try to buy local from small suppliers/farms when I can, although that isn't always possible. I realize that being vegetarian isn't "more" ethical than being an omnivore. I'm aware of the social issues regarding the harvesting and care of the vegetables I eat and the poor pay and treatment of the migrant workers who most likely tended them. It bothers me a lot, and I try to support sellers that pay a fair wage and have good working conditions (which is pretty fucking hard, really). 

 

I'm also aware that, as a vegetarian, I'm still dependent somewhat on the meat industry, as animal waste is often used as fertilizer and I realize that the cheapest and most readily available sources of such are factory farms.

 

The main reason I became a vegetarian is because of the incredibly unsanitary practices that happen in our country's meat processing plants. I won't go into detail and no, I'm not blindly following some video I watched or book I read, I did the research (which started with a lengthy newspaper article about the topic; I can't remember which paper), read the actual reports and made the decision that meat was too inherently risky to consume.

 

AFTER that, I became more aware of the horrific conditions under which factory farm raised meat animals live, and I was glad that I no longer directly supported that industry (again, I realize I do in a roundabout way and yes, it really bothers me). Rolling Stone came out with an article yesterday (or the day before, I don't remember) about this very issue and the main source of their information was the US Humane Society. The same Humane Society that polices puppy mills and dog fighting and general animal abuse and neglect. So not a fringe group, like PETA, but a very respected and esteemed organization.

 

Not surprisingly, the article was vivid and extremely disturbing. Extremely. I posted it on FB and asked my friends to read it (my FB friends list is very small - only people I actually know in person plus one or two who are friends of friends) because all of them are omnivores who buy their meat at the grocery store (one couple does try and buy local when it's available to them). Not one of them would read it. I didn't press it, I don't want to be "that" vegetarian friend, but I'm just curious as to why people wouldn't want to know where the food they eat comes from and how it gets to their plate.

 

Some of these same friends get all up in arms about GMOs and labeling and such and I'm just....amazed. Amazed that they can eat a steak that was covered in filth, washed with bleach and/or ammonia, stuffed full of antibiotics and hormones - and they worry more about the corn next to it on the plate?

 

So I'm curious - if you don't care where the food you eat comes from, why is that? Do you just not want to know so you don't have to think about it? Are you genuinely just not curious?

 

I know it's a really complicated and, for some, emotionally loaded issue. I think about it often. It really bothers me that there are very few sources of "clean" food, in an ethical sense of the word; even food I would grow on my own would have the taint of some issue since I'd depend upon a supplier for seeds and a source somewhere for fertilizers and, if raising meat animals, a source of THEIR feed, which would more than likely be from the same origins/companies as those that supply factory farms.

 

 

[melissaw72]

I just wanted to say I am totally with you on all of this and very aware of what I eat.  I wish they'd eradicate GMOs from the earth, and treat animals in a humane way.  I do my best to stay away from GMOs, but am not always able to because of having the money to buy totally organic.  But I do buy organic when I can afford it or there are sales.

[koa]

I think most people are not prepared for the lifestyle change... so they'd just rather not think about it.

 

I actually visited a factory farm once.  I saw thousands of turkey in a single room, which was bad enough, but then I saw cattle standing so close together they couldn't move.  They were also standing in their own excrement.  You could smell it from far away.  

 

I even saw some cheese cows being milked... They'd be literally milked until they bled. 

 

Anyway... From this visit, I don't eat red meat anymore.  For some reason I felt that the conditions of the cattle were much worse than those of the chickens and turkey, which is probably mistaken on my part.  I rarely eat meat, though.  

 

I think an ideal situation would be to raise a large portion of your own food like Olga does, and then supplement that with stuff from local produce stands and farmer's markets.  

[CrankyMe]

Cheese is the hardest one for me. I love cheese. I've been working hard to get it out of my diet because of the issue you mentioned, koakua. It takes a lot of milk to make a small amount of cheese and the suffering that goes into that....sigh. I'm extremely, extremely, extremely lucky in that we have a local cheese artisan that makes cheese from their own dairy cows, and the cows are field raised and people can even tour the milking barn, so it's all on the up and up. The downside, of course, is the cost.

 

I recognize that, for a LOT of people, an ethical diet (if you want to call it that, I know it sounds snobby) isn't possible because it IS more expensive and when you aren't sure where your next meal is coming from, the last thing you're going to be thinking about is, well, exactly where it's coming from.

 

Melissa, it's interesting, I'm not especially against GMOs, even though I've done a lot of reading about them and why certain countries ban them. I guess it is in part because of the commonly told fallacy about Monsanto putting small farmers out of business by enforcing the patent on their GMO corn. That didn't happen, but I've heard it told as truth sooo many times, it's crazy. I think part of the reason I'm not terribly alarmed about GMOs (plant based, not animal based) is because farmers have been practicing it for years through hybridization and isolation of certain plants to get the desired outcome - the difference being that the former happens rather quickly in a lab and the latter takes a lot of time and happens out in the field (so to speak, heh).

 

And koakua - if I lived closer to Olga, I'd pay to eat at her house every day! heh 

[melissaw72]

I tried to find Food, Inc on you tube but it isn't there anymore.

 

Here is another good one: Genetic Roulette: Gamble of Our Lives.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgC-SdvyFWI

[The Emperor]

I'll answer this honestly even though it paints me in a poor light. I am ashamed, but you want to know, so I'll tell you. I'm that person.

 

I've wanted to become a vegetarian for many, many years. Since I was 11 so this has been an issue for 16 years, about. 

 

I look the other way. I ignore those things. I don't want to and I do want to. Why? okay, meat tastes good. I crave it. Also, I couldn't JUST be a vegetarian. I'd have to go vegan. Also, I don't want to be angry with other people for not making the change as well. It's difficult. I don't want to think badly of people who haven't because it does not make them awful people and I know that, but hell if I won't be annoyed by them. I know myself, this would happen.

 

Probably the most ridiculous reason I have is that I am lazy. Very, very lazy. The change would be tremendous. I wouldn't know what to do. I could research and all that, I understand that the industry is terrible for the most part. But I can't just cut out meat if I do this. It's always go big or go home for me. 

 

That being said, I have a month off school now. I'm making plenty of lifestyle changes that are beneficial to me. I love animals. I hate that I crave meat, I hate that I can't stop eating it. This would literally be like breaking an addiction. No withdrawal, but intense cravings are hard to fight for me.

 

So, I want to do it. I do. 

 

Would you please provide me with some links that would help? A PM would be nice. I can do my own research on what to buy, I know that. Soap and shampoo and other things like shaving cream and shit are going to be an issue. 

 

MEDS. They test that shit on animals. As much as I LOVE AND CARE DEEPLY for animals, the meds have to stay. Everything else CAN go. I need to live. I don't need meat or animal products to do this, but I do need the medications. 

 

What I need is basically the videos/articles that will make me feel worse. I need a figurative kick in the ass/gut. I need to know the thing I want to quit is really bad, this is how I learn.

 

Can you tell me where to find these things, legitimate sources. That's it. I know that's asking a lot. If not, this is fine too, But I'd appreciate a PM with a link or two, if you have time. Only because you said legitimate sources. I have no clue where to find them and I am NOT debating this. I want legitimate help. 

 

God, I sound like I'm going to need a fucking support group for this, ha ha. It's been a big issue for a while, is all. I really do love animals. I don't want to contribute to them being harmed. That's all.

[CrankyMe]

I don't think it paints you in a poor light, Emp. Not at all. I appreciate the honesty and the insight. And my post is NOT intended to shame people into a vegetarian or vegan diet; for me, it was a very personal choice and I don't want to force it on others. But I do (and maybe this DOES make me "that kind of vegetarian") think people should at least KNOW so they are making an informed choice.

 

Also, you aren't a bad person for wanting to eat meat. There could be a medical reason for it - maybe your body is lacking in iron or B-12 or any variety of nutrients that can only come from animal based foods (part of the reason I decided on vegetarian rather than vegan - already have some nutrient deficiency issues). And some people literally can't cut meat out of their diet because of health issues, either physical or mental (I'm thinking about someone in ED recovery, for example, who may need to eat meat to help them overcome their food fears). And some people can't because it's too expensive. Or they can't work it out in their heads how to get it done, for whatever reason. Or they are too exhausted to put any additional energy into making meals and fix what is fast and familiar. Those are all legitimate reasons.

 

It doesn't negate their love of animals or their concerns about health or any of that. Sometimes, it's just like that. And that's okay.

 

I'll drop you a PM so we can chat more privately and you can let me know if you want some sources or if this isn't a good time to pursue it. I don't want this to cause any mental or emotional turmoil for you.

[koa]

My main concern with GMO's is that the crops will become "super weeds" due to their hardiness and will become invasive.

[tryp]

I mostly just don't want to think about it.  I absolutely lack the emotional energy.  Sad but true.

[necklacetripwanderer]

Though I may not always agree, I respect peoples choices regarding what they eat. I admit I do not always eat healthy, partially because the healthy food is usually more expensive and/or requires more effort to get, so there is some laziness there. When I first heard about the paleo diet (so-called because it focuses on what our prehistoric ancestors ate before the advent of agriculture) it made sense to me. The logic behind the paleo diet is that the human body is designed to eat unprocessed hunted and foraged food, and eating agriculturally grown high carb and even vegetarian diets is not the ideal sustenance. The particular version of the paleo diet I learned about specifically says that gluten, dairy, and soy are particularly harmful to eat, and that covers a large portion of the standard Western diet.

 

For those vegetarians who don't like to eat meat, and those vegans who don't like to eat anything that comes from animals, I understand the reasoning behind these diets. I've observed that as humans we must feed on some type of life to survive, be it plants, or animals. The more 'militant' vegans might overlook the fact that plants are just as alive as animals, and that by avoiding all animal-based sustenance they are not really 'valuing' life more just because animals and animal-based foods are not in their diet. For vegetarians and vegans, often the amount of plants required to make up for the loss of meat nutrients almost makes it more destructive in terms of the volume of food eaten.

 

These ideas are definitely outside the mainstream, but slowly gaining wider acceptance and exposure. Regarding GMOs, I think these may be the most harmful of all foods. Any life form that has had its DNA intentionally modified might have such severe effects as altering the DNA of those who consume them. The long-term effects of eating GMOs are completely unknown, and the fact that companies like Monsanto are so against GMO labeling of products should say something. Just look at this article about lab tests on rats being fed GM corn. I shudder to think what it does to humans.

[jt07]

I really can't afford to eat any other way. If I could, I would be more choosy, but I can't. Also, what tryp said is also true for me.

 

As for GMO, I don't have a problem with it. We need to find a way to feed the world population which means that we have to find a way to increase crop yield somehow. And if you've ever eaten a hybrid anything, then what you've eaten was genetically modified the good old fashioned way.

[Lemmiwinks]

This has been irking me for a while. I'm not a militant vegan, but I am (as much as I can be) a conscientious vegetarian - I try to buy local from small suppliers/farms when I can, although that isn't always possible.

 

As you are so interested in the topic, CrankyMe, I'm assuming you would like to hear consume local campaigns are bogus, buying from your local producer might be healthier (on that I really don't know) but it won't help the environment, actually it's the other way around. I read a lot about it in a masters level climate change class. Here, take a look:

 

Wilson, T. (2007). The ‘food miles’ fallacy. Institute of Public Affairs. Retrieved on February 2, 2012, from: http://www.ipa.org.au/library/59_2_WILSON_FoodMiles.pdf

 

(I have a bunch other links and references from the paper I wrote for that class in case you are interested, send me a message and I'll be happy to share them)

[CrankyMe]

Lemmiwinks: Buying local is, to me, more about supporting my immediate economy and knowing the labor wasn't done by underpaid, overworked undocumented workers. When I say I "buy local" I mean LOCAL, as in the little old lady down the street who sells tomatoes and zinnias in tin cans from under a giant sun umbrella next to the driveway. I don't mean big farms that happen to be in my state/area. The exception being apple orchards, since there are so many in my area and most stores carry at least one orchard's apples. I can count 3 orchards that are within a 10 mile radius of my house.

[koa]

Lemmiwinks, the article you posted discusses England.  Does the argument hold up for other places, such temperate areas of the United States?  What if a product is both organic and local?  

[DogMan]

I'm an aware ex vegan.

now happily eating factory farmed chicken, and factory farmed chicken guts and feet in fast food etc

i don't get separation of animals. in that i also eat goat, bison, kangaroo, walaby among others

i do a good factory farmed steak and kidney soup

[CrankyMe]

Hume's, I'm not sure what you mean about "separation of animals". Do you mean you'll eat any animal? You mentioned some exotic meats, but what about roasted parrot or kitty stew? Is it okay if you don't "know" the animal, or would you eat a pet, if the mood struck?

[DogMan]

all those u mentioned are illegal to eat here, but if i visit asia i might tdy dog or cat. i haven't ruled out eating my pet chooks if they stop laying

[Jessamine]

I think it's usually 2 things. One is that people would rather not know. Taste/variety/food interest trumps suffering (my Mum is the first person to tell me to never tell her what happens to her meat because she doesn't want to know about it and feels helpless to change it anyway even if she knew). The other is money. People have this idea that being vegetarian is expensive (and it can be, but it can be cheap too).

I was vegetarian for almost 4 years. I had patches of being vegan from time to time and tried to eat vegan as much as possible. I also have IBS and my stomach HATED beans and lentils and even too  many vegetables. By the time I took everything out of my diet that I couldn't eat there wasn't a whole lot left and what was was not very good for me (paneer, halloumi, seitan-which I know isn't too bad but not great on a nightly basis). Eventually I allowed meat back into my diet. It hurt me to compromise my beliefs a lot. I now try to make good decisions wherever I can buying only free range (unless it's completely unavailable) etc. On occasion though, I am feeding a rather large family and money has to be taken into consideration.

[CrankyMe]

Hume's: so your threshold is legality, regarding what you'd eat vs. what you wouldn't?

 

Jess:I agree on all points - being vegetarian can be very cheap, but it gets problematic when your body rejects those cheap and available foods, as was your case. I think it's especially difficult when you're in charge of feeding a family, particularly with young kids who can be frustratingly stubborn about what they will or won't eat. Case in point: my kids were exact opposites when they were growing up, and I mean from the moment they started eating solid food. My older son hated most veggies (he would literally vomit if his father forced him to "just try one bite") and pretty much ate only white and brown foods - dairy and meat. My younger son was nearly vegan after he finished nursing; fruits and veggies were two big toddler thumb's up. Instead of a goodnight glass of milk, he had a goodnight carrot - I'm not kidding. And if we forgot it for some reason or (god forbid) were out of carrots, the tears, the drama! Now that they are both adults, they both eat well balanced diets for the most part; they both had bouts with fad diets to lose some weight fast, but thankfully they didn't think the rewards were worth the what the diets required and ended up losing weight the old fashioned way.

 

PS: I looooove seitan. I've never made my own, but have wanted to try. I hear it's simple but messy.

[WinterRosie]

I think that people don't want to know because it takes a certain amount of cognitive dissonance to eat. Food is the most political act that we do on a daily basis, and it follows that with the rise of apathy in all things political (along with a raising sense of despair for change) that people are willing to just be quiet and eat.

There is a crude French expression ferme ta geule et mange la merde (shut up and eat the shit) which pretty much sums up how I feel about it. But I get it, I really do. Real wages are declining at a precipitous rate and our lives are more frantically busy than ever. So taking the time to eat properly and to eat only whole foods and slow foods is nearly impossible.

A lot of it has to do with rising food prices as the baby boomers grew up from childhood, too. And our population has only grown since then. On a finite planet if we payed our food costs in money food would be very expensive. So we pay for it in other ways instead. Especially because the other costs are not taken into the monetary equation. 

So, to me, the fault is just as much the way that capitalism works as it is anything else. 

[CrankyMe]

Really great observations, WinterRosie. Capitalism really does make it nearly impossible to live a "no harm done" life, and I don't mean just food, but where our clothes are made and by whom and under what conditions - ditto electronics and furniture and pretty much everything people in developed nations need or think they need to survive. Yes, our standard of living is extraordinarily high, but it comes at a high non-monetary cost, as you mention.

 

It's the kind of thing that make your head explode, really, just trying to grasp the global effect (and I don't mean climate, I mean on people's lives and the state of the countries they live in) capitalism has had on the world.

 

Not that I have any solutions nor do I think I have the mental ability or fortitude to come up with solutions. I don't why it's important to me that I still KNOW. Something for me to ponder.

 

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. It's been really helpful and I'm feeling less frustrated with my friends not sharing this particular interest. I appreciate that everyone gave me something to think about and consider while trying to reconcile my own feelings about the issue.

[Jessamine]

Hume's: so your threshold is legality, regarding what you'd eat vs. what you wouldn't?

 

Jess:I agree on all points - being vegetarian can be very cheap, but it gets problematic when your body rejects those cheap and available foods, as was your case. I think it's especially difficult when you're in charge of feeding a family, particularly with young kids who can be frustratingly stubborn about what they will or won't eat. Case in point: my kids were exact opposites when they were growing up, and I mean from the moment they started eating solid food. My older son hated most veggies (he would literally vomit if his father forced him to "just try one bite") and pretty much ate only white and brown foods - dairy and meat. My younger son was nearly vegan after he finished nursing; fruits and veggies were two big toddler thumb's up. Instead of a goodnight glass of milk, he had a goodnight carrot - I'm not kidding. And if we forgot it for some reason or (god forbid) were out of carrots, the tears, the drama! Now that they are both adults, they both eat well balanced diets for the most part; they both had bouts with fad diets to lose some weight fast, but thankfully they didn't think the rewards were worth the what the diets required and ended up losing weight the old fashioned way.

 

PS: I looooove seitan. I've never made my own, but have wanted to try. I hear it's simple but messy.

Oh I loved it too! I had an awesome recipe for some "sausages" that were far less messy than the simmered stuff (you just wrapped them in foil and steamed them). And the best chicken one, it was simmered. I had it down to a fine art by the time I stopped making it (probably couldn't cook it now for anything). It's not that messy (not compared to some of the veggie burgers and stuff I made sometimes!). You should give it a shot!

And good to know they can grow out of it! I have one child who mostly eats anything except chicken thigh (only breast, she likes it like a rubber thong/flip flop), one who's pretty much vegetarian if I'd let her (but I refuse to cook 4 separate meals every night!) and one who is all about the meat. Will eat the odd veggie but give her a salad and it generally gets left there.

[WinterRosie]

For me, I do actively try to change the world.

If you are into food advocacy you could look into Food not Bombs. It is active in many cities. Some places also have an organization called Seeds for Peace that is similar. If you find your city on this list then you can go there for more information on how you can help. 

[koa]

Hume's, regarding the separation of animals, would this mean you suggest we eat other humans?

[DogMan]

Hume's, regarding the separation of animals, would this mean you suggest we eat other humans?

 

i'm not as against it as some.

 

i don't like finicky meats like small fish and rabbit that take a lot of work for little return, that, legality and availability pretty much define my choices

 

i'm not against eating kittens, but don't think there is enough meat:bone ratio to be worth it. but a human thigh could be good fillets or roast

 

farming might be an issue, i guess you could raiise them sheltered off from society, or do game humans and just cull overpopulated areas [but that raises concerns with disease]

 

i'd like to try dog, despite them being my fav animal [i rate them above humans] ex house mates from abroad always said it is one meat that has a truly unique taste, unlike cat, which apparently is like chicken but a PITA to get decent fillets off

[Reverse The Polarity]

Frankly, if the animal is not an endangered species and if we're not maliciously being cruel to them, then I don't see a problem with farming and eating animals. Does it mean modern farming practices shouldn't be improved? No - there are things [i.e. caged chickens] that should be phased out. However, I'm not going to demand to know where every aspect of my food originates. 

 

I respect that where their food originates matters for some people, but it matters less to me because personally, there are other matters that I view as a higher priority. 

[melissaw72]

Personally, I could never eat a cat or dog, even if I was starving.

[necklacetripwanderer]

Capitalism really does make it nearly impossible to live a "no harm done" life, and I don't mean just food, but where our clothes are made and by whom and under what conditions - ditto electronics and furniture and pretty much everything people in developed nations need or think they need to survive. Yes, our standard of living is extraordinarily high, but it comes at a high non-monetary cost, as you mention.

 

Excellent observations. Especially in USA we live in a toxic culture. Our food, water, air, media, materialistic culture, sex, etc. have all been poisoned in one way or another. To survive without the hunter-gatherer instincts is a passive, force-fed, kept-in-ignorance and lied to by organizations like the FDA about the dangers of synthetics in our diet and environment situation. I do believe that our current system is incredibly unsustainable, that the universe seeks balance, and that we are overdue for a re-balancing. There is a silver lining hidden in the clouds that hang over us, but it will almost certainly have to get worse before it can get better.

[Bam]

I am actually very aware of food & what I put in my body as a whole. For me, it is about a) money and b) convenience.

 

Its awful to admit, but that is the truth.

 

I really have no intention to go vegetarian. I have a lot of digestive & food related issues, to which natural vitamins & minerals from meats are a need & necessary. If it were up to me though, I would be 100% organic. The issue for this one is money. Organic foods & services (making your own food) can be extremely pricey.

 

I already dedicate my life to being free of gluten, dairy, and other types processed foods. And holy crap, that is expensive enough. When it comes to other foods like meat & veggies, many of times I willingly sacrifice to undesirable food for the sake of getting important GF items.

 

The other stance, is of course convenience. When at work, or traveling (to which I do very often), finding the right healthy & ethical snacks is nearly impossible.

[Jessamine]

I have a lot of digestive & food related issues, to which natural vitamins & minerals from meats are a need & necessary. If it were up to me though, I would be 100% organic. The issue for this one is money. Organic foods & services (making your own food) can be extremely pricey.

 

I feel your pain on this one. I have the same sorts of problems.

[mcjimjam]

I don't want to know where the meat comes from because it would gross me out, unsanitary or not. I'm happier not knowing. If I took a tour of one of these factories, it would put me off eating meat, and I want to eat meat, because it tastes good. I think that is why I would choose not to read an article like that.

 

I don't really believe it is ethical to kill animals for food, but I hate vegetarian food. If I'm forced to go without meat I feel physically weak and lethargic. Maybe it's wrong to eat meat, but I'm no saint. I don't think it is good for my health to avoid meat and dairy. I would rather do what is right for my health than try to live up to this ideal. I'm not saying a vego diet is inferior to meat-based, I don't know about that, I just feel better eating meat.

[wj74]

Personally, I could never eat a cat or dog, even if I was starving.

Yeah, that. As for why people don't want to know where it all comes from, I would compare it to not wanting to know about dirt and poop fertilizer on your veggies. And worms. You sort of know it's there, but you don't want to know the details because you would never eat again. I already have a hard time eating lettuce unless I was the one to wash it. Organic or not, it can still have contaminants in it.

[CrankyMe]

Veganism/vegetarianism is a choice based on information. It's not a moral highground. If you posted that stuff on my FB, I'd just block your feed. I use FB to socialize, chat and share information, not make my FB friends feel guilty. If you want your friends to engage in the political issues you do, then the best thing is to get on with living your life as a quiet example and let them come to you.

 

Titania, I'm not sure you've read this thread in its entirety, or why you are being so accusatory and confrontational, other than that we have a history of such interactions. I don't know why you take particular issue with me, but you seem to relish in it. If that was the point of your post in this thread, well, I hope at least you feel satisfied with yourself.

 

I think I've been pretty clear about knowing that vegetarianism/veganism isn't for everyone and I also think I've been pretty clear that I'm not against eating meat nor do I believe that veg diets are superior. Any diet/lifestyle choice is rife with ethical concerns, vegetarianism/veganism not being exempt from that.

 

I also use FB to socialize, chat and share information. My link to an article (article was admittedly gory and I forewarned ppl of such, but the link itself was just the standard blue linky color, hardly gory in and of itself) was part of my sharing of information. I didn't try to or "make" anyone feel guilty, I provided facts. And, in this thread, asked others why they would not seek out or read such facts as presented to them. I've appreciated all the posts thus far, as they help round out my personal understanding. I don't think I've been rude or confrontational or dismissive of anyone's opinions or contributions.

 

Perhaps it would be best if you "blocked my feed" here, too, as I clearly rub you the wrong way.

[crtclms]

I want to be a vegetarian, and at times I have tried to ease us into it. But it is just easier to be an omnivore. Plus, I can't get into tofu. I've never tried seitan, but my vegan friend (who is really a pescetarian, but don't tell her I said that), who knows my tastes pretty well, doesn't think I'd like seitaan. I actually am more concerned about the damage to our environment done by raising cattle than I am worried about the ethics of eating flesh. I am not really interested in being vegan, but the ecological cost of burgers bothers me, even as I eat them.

 

I would say while we're not very careful about it, we are 85% ovo/lacto. But that 15% is beef. For some reason I am "off" chicken right now, it seems slimy to me. If someone else would cook it, I'd probably eat it though. Actually, what am I saying, we have prepared chicken enchiladas in the fridge (we just have to heat the through). So I won't cook chicken, but I'll eat it. Still, we very rarely eat meat. But again, it is less because of ethics, and more because I don't know what to do with it except spaghetti sauce and steak.

 

I buy organic free range eggs, and when I was feeding Violet a raw diet, I was buying her meat at Whole Foods, so the beef was grass fed, and the chicken and turkey was free range. I can't afford that now, it raises the cost of meat by a third.

 

On SSDI, I can't afford all organic food, so I concentrate on foods that are really blasted with pesticides. Peanuts get drenched, because the plants are watered with pesticide, and it sinks through the ground, so I buy organic peanut butter. I buy organic dairy, because of the hormones and who knows what else. Potatoes for the same reason as peanuts. Fruit where I eat the skin, including tomatoes, and also peppers. And spinach, I forget why spinach particularly, but I read an article about 5 foods you should absolutely buy organic a few years ago, and it was one of them.

 

My father always says the Earth is covered with a fecal veneer. I buy that.

[koa]

Titania, while I feel that you usually bring something positive to this site, I also think you misread the position of Cranky Me and were being unnecessarily rude, smug and accusatory, probably because of your own preconceived ideas of what types of people vegetarians or vegans are.  Cranky was simply trying to bring up an issue she cares about and to create a dialogue, and you are suggesting she is somehow personally attacking your ethics, as if she had directed this entire post to you.  There are other reasons not to eat meat that have nothing to do with animal cruelty.  It is very energy inefficient to eat meat, as I'm sure you know, and there are kind of a lot of fucking people in the world competing for resources.  Whatever, no one is saying you have to be a vegetarian to be a good person.

[neptunesky]

At the end of the day, other people's food is their choice, it used to bother me and it still does that people buy eggs from caged hens, i do try and educate them about the awful conditions these chickens are kept it, and i will always buy eggs from hens who have freedom to go outside and have a warm, secure place to sleep, caged hens have a tiny cage which they basically live in until they die, they literally just cram these chickens in, the more they can get in the better then lock them in an individual cage stacked next to each other for life. Just thinking about it makes me angry and upset, it is only about 60p or $1 more to buy cruelty free eggs. It really annoys me when people have a shopping cart full of premium food, and then these caged hen eggs.

If i couldn't afford eggs, i would not buy them rather than buying caged hen eggs.

 

I eat little meat and it does annoy me that people just eat meat, sometimes twice a day without consideration that you are eating an actual animal, it's just a product to a lot of people. I eat more fish than meat.

Edited January 23, 2014 by neptunesky

[saintalto]

I don't care anymore because I spent 17 years obsessing over it and all it ever brought was a very bad relationship with food and my body. I am sorry for the animals and environment, I truly am, but I can't live like that anymore. I just can't.

[Squish]

I'd like to eat differently than I do now, if not be completely vegetarian. I don't find killing animals for meat objectionable in itself but I hate supporting farming practices that cause completely unnecessary suffering to animals. Battery farming chickens, conventional pig farming and cows being milked until they bled are just wrong and inexcusable. I would also prefer not to eat beef at all, as the environmental impact of raising cows for beef is really huge and a majorcause of greenhouse gases.

 

Ideally I would only consume animal products that had been responsibly and ethically farmed. I don't mind GMOs at all. They are sometimes combined with bad farming practices, like engineering a herbicide resistance crop and then spraying everything with herbicide but then the weeds just evolve herbicide resistance so it's a bit pointless. I think GMOs can be useful in reducing the requirement for fertilizers and pesticides altogether, which is good and making crops more nutritious (like golden rice).

 

However, I have very little energy and I'm chronically underweight. Like Jessamine, beans and pulses give me stomach aches if I eat a lot of them.

 

I'm also a student, live in student accommodation without good kitchen facilities and eat canteen food. For now I have to prioritize getting enough nutrition, so I pretty much eat whatever and try not to think about it too much.

[melissaw72]

 

which is good and making crops more nutritious (like golden rice).

 

I disagree.

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/06/21/genetically-engineered-rice-is-a-trojan-horse--misled-by-bill-gates-and-monsanto.aspx

 

Scroll half way down the article to

"Golden Rice is Not a Viable Source of Vitamin A"

and what is said about the golden rice.

[Guest]

Reading back, I apologize for the unneccessary combative tone, that was a really bad day for me and I totally lost it. I should have come back and apologized.

 

That said, while my post was angry and not linked to the thread, I do find that trying to use FB to influence peoples political choices about food is not the best way to do it. I really think vegetarianism and veganism is a totally admirable choice, but if someone is posting something on FB that carries an undertone of 'why aren't my FB friends interested in finding out what is in their food/are they too stupid or careless to look into it?' then that does come across even if it is not said. Probably in much the same way my misplaced ire attracted criticism, people can usually tell if something posted on FB is there to inform or because there is an agenda behind it.

[Squish]

 

 

which is good and making crops more nutritious (like golden rice).

 

I disagree.

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/06/21/genetically-engineered-rice-is-a-trojan-horse--misled-by-bill-gates-and-monsanto.aspx

 

Scroll half way down the article to

"Golden Rice is Not a Viable Source of Vitamin A"

and what is said about the golden rice.

 

 

Melissa, we may have to agree to disagree on GMOs.

 

The article that you link to references a case study with out of date information on the beta carotene content of rice. It gives the content of the original strain, not the improved strain that was engineered in 2005. The original strain has 1.6 µg of beta carotene per gram of rice; the improved strain has approximately 25 µg of beta carotene per gram of rice. A child eating at least two portions of rice would receive almost all their RDA of vitamin A from this rice.

 

http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v23/n4/full/nbt1082.html

 

(I think there may be a paywall but the abstract should be available.)

[melissaw72]

 

Melissa, we may have to agree to disagree on GMOs.

 

You're right.

[tinypunx]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a pretty militant vegan, and I also have a pretty happy social life. Apart from meat consumption being gross, though, I generally just don't hang out with people who refuse to acknowledge the fact that eating meat is NOT a "personal lifestyle choice." A personal lifestyle choice is going jogging. If you're doing something that endorses and is an active source of suffering, torture, rape, enslavement, and slaughter, when it is not 100% necessary, it isn't justifiable. Plant-based diet staples are not expensive. For years I was easily able to maintain a varied vegan diet on maybe $100 a month for groceries. The only significant issue in the vast, vast majority of cases is time management, and a slight adjustment in perspective on meal planning. Meat is expensive and gross and obscenely unethical most of the time; the ethical exception is if a person has literally no other options. If it is possible for you to do less harm, you should. Period. It's not about "giving something up," it's about thinking of the victims, and weighing what is actually seriously necessary vs. what is just excess and laziness and "I like the taste, so it's justifiable that my snack came at the expense of incomprehensible agony."

 

Most of the people who use the "food desert" argument do not live in a food desert, and the funny thing is that in most places where food is scarce, plant-based foods are significantly more prevalent, and more desirable; if you're eating livestock, you have to feed that animal 10x the amount of food you're going to get out of it. When food is scarce, it makes more sense to consume the food directly than to waste it funneling it into a future meal that's going to be a fraction of what you can have in the now (not to mention the damage farming animals does to the environment and soil, making it that much harder to grow food and maintain a supply of clean water). And lastly, the idea that vegans don't care about migrant workers and human rights? Yeah right. Can people not care about racism and homophobia and cissexism all at the same time, either? The fact of the matter is, about 90% of all soybeans produced, and a very significant quantity of other crops, are fed to livestock, not humans. So if belligerent omnis claim to care so much for human rights, they need to acknowledge that 1) they're actually requiring human workers to do more work to produce WAY more food by putting it through livestock first (on top of whatever other vegetables they eat), and 2) the meat and animal farming industries have some of the highest rates of suicide (three guesses why) and risk of serious injuries. 

 

It's not the eating meat part that bothers me -- if you find a carcass, whatever, it's your body. I think the health risks and clear detriments speak for themselves, and are easy enough to find through a little light research. But as soon as what you're doing is affecting other living, sentient beings, and in a way you KNOW means massive suffering and abuse and torture, you better think damn hard about whether there's any other way first. If you honestly think there is no intersectionality between animal oppression and the many and varied forms of human oppression, you are very, very wrong. 

[AnnaBanana]

I have meat eating teeth for a reason, if I was meant to be vegetarian, I'd have cow teeth. But most of my meat is bought at a processing place, not a grocery store. Locals farmers sell their meat through it.

[tinypunx]

I have meat eating teeth for a reason, if I was meant to be vegetarian, I'd have cow teeth. But most of my meat is bought at a processing place, not a grocery store. Locals farmers sell their meat through it.

Our teeth are omnivorous, not carnivorous, and they're like that for adaptation purposes, so we could spread out to live in other places. We are a very, very clearly omnivorous species, with a strong preference for plants over meat, just like the vast majority of other apes. Speaking of which, have you seen the teeth gorillas have? Funnily enough, apart from occasional ants and termites, they're completely herbivorous. The bottom line, though, is that just because you can inflict suffering doesn't mean you should. If you can survive and thrive without killing unnecessarily, the choice should be easy.

 

Local farmers =/= "humane meat." Don't buy into it.

 

IF WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO EAT HUMANS, WHY ARE THEY MADE OF MEAT?

[olga]

Okay, this thread was started by CrankyMe as a way to discuss knowing where our food comes from and how it was raised.  This is NOT the place to bash people for the kind of eating they do.  The members here at Crazyboards run the gamut from meat-and-potatoes people to vegans, and everyone has to get along. 

 

It's fine to discuss what you PERSONALLY like to eat, and what you feel is healthy eating, but please be civil in the discussion about these choices.  We have a "no flaming" rule, remember.  Let's tone down this discussion a few notches.

 

olga

[Stickler]

I'm pretty-much vegan, and this is mainly because I'm trying to dodge a genetic bullet.

3 of 4 of my grandparents died from adult-onset diabetes complications, the one who didn't died of a heart attack at 48.

 

I've been veg since 1995, and pretty-much vegan since 2000.  This to improve those odds.  I tend to be a binge eater, and I seem to do better if meat/fish/dairy/eggs is just completely off the menu, anyway, as far as maintaining something approaching a healthy weight is concerned.

 

As far as not eating meat as a way of avoiding adult-onset diabetes and heart disease, though, it might not be necessary to avoid ALL meats, but preserved meats do not seem to be your friend:

 

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100517/processed-meat-linked-to-heart-disease-risks

 

Eating one serving a day of processed meat -- or the equivalent of a single hot dog or two slices of salami -- was associated with a 42% increased risk for heartdisease and a 19% increased risk for diabetes in the study, conducted by researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health.

Eating unprocessed beef, pork, or lamb was not linked to a higher risk for heart disease and diabetes.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Stickler

[Velvet Elvis]

Vegetables are what my food eats.

 

Climate change is going to kill off most higher level organisms within 100 years anyway so why give a shit?

[mizvyxen]

It's extremely simple: hot dogs are delicious.

[AnnaBanana]

Well, I grew up on a farm. We had cows, and pigs and horses. No we did not eat the horses, we rode them. We did eat the cows and pigs though. We took our critters to the same processing plant where I get my current meat from. I know all the farmers who take their meat to this processing plant, so YES I do know how the critters are treated because I know the people taking their meat there. That's WHY I buy my meat there. But no, I'm not going to stop eating meat. I really don't like it when religious people try to throw their religion down my throat. I also don't like it when Vegans/Vegetarians do the same thing. The only thing you are going to accomplish coming at me the way you are is me responding with "I'm going to eat meat and I actually don't give a fuck where it comes from, as long as it gets in my belly, so fuck off." I have friends that are vegans and vegetarians IRL and we all get along just fine.
It's your choice to eat what you choose to eat, just as it's my choice to eat what I choose to eat. I don't think you are less than me because you choose to not eat meat. I'm not less than you because I do choose to eat meat. But yes, I do know where I get my meat from and how the animals are treated. The bonus about going where I do, is in hunting season, I can also get deer, rabbit, and wild turkey should I want some. Not going to find that in the grocery store.

Edited March 10, 2014 by AnnaBanana