Fort Hood shooter ... had mental problems

[Indigo 'n dye]

Gird your loins: prepare for the backlash.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/03/fort-hood-shooter-ivan-lopez-saw-no-combat-in-iraq-had-mental-problems/7253099/

 

Lopez, who was on a variety of prescribed drugs including Ambien, had not yet been diagnosed for post-traumatic stress disorder. But he was also undergoing treatment for depression, anxiety, sleep disturbance and a variety of other issues, McHugh said.

" He was seen just last month by a psychiatrist," McHugh said Thursday. " He was fully examined. And as of this morning, we had no indication on the record of that examination that there was any sign of likely violence, either to himself or to others. No suicidal ideation."

 

Sad beyond the telling of the tale, the fallout, for those with MI diagnoses, is apt to be significant.

 

Edited for tag failure.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Indigo 'n dye

[melissaw72]

I heard this on the news this morning and my first reaction was "wonderful" (sarcasm). 

 

I actually have no words anymore to describe how I feel every time this happens.  It is like one more strike against us.

[Paranoidling]

-

Edited May 1, 2022 by Paranoidling

[WinterRosie]

My first thought was selfish...

I'm somewhat appreciative that here, our worst shooting was fuelled by good old fashioned misogyny. And that we did something about it! We have gun restrictions, and that's considered okay. How the hell is it possible that even governments that admit that gun violence is an issue is absolutely powerless to do anything about it?

 

My second thought being that this does not bode well. The intro to Trauma and Recovery put it really well where it talks about soldiers and common reactions to trauma, versus societal expectation.

 

ETA: on the CBC they said that he was being treated for ptsd and taking medication for anxiety and depression. 

Edited April 3, 2014 by WinterRosie
ETA

[melissaw72]

I just went to read Drudge Report, and this whole thing is just splattered all over on the first page.

 

"WAR COMES HOME: ANOTHER SHOOTING AT FORT HOOD...
UPDATE: 4 Dead, Including Gunman...
ID'd As Ivan Lopez...
'Mental Health Issues, Was Being Treated'... 'Depression, Anxiety'...
Prescribed Ambien...
Connection between violence and SSRI medication emerges yet again...
Shooter angry at Army over refusal to let him attend mom's funeral...
FACEBOOK Page Tribute To Heavy Metal Band...
GOP REP: Troops should be armed on base...
EPIDEMIC: At Least 22 Veterans Commit Suicide Each Day...
Stress Disorder..."

 

These are the first headlines you see when you come to the site.

[melissaw72]

Here is another link from Drudge:

 

http://nypost.com/2014/04/03/fort-hood-shooter-sought-help-with-mental-issues/

 

 

Apparently the shooter was "enraged at the army over his mom's funeral."

[Indigo 'n dye]

ETA: on the CBC they said that he was being treated for ptsd and taking medication for anxiety and depression. 

 

Other reports say he was self-diagnosed with traumatic brain injury. Most reports say he had not been diagnosed with PTS, but was being treated for sleep disturbances, depression, and anxiety.

 

I live not too far from a military post and they are reportedly on high security for the rest of the week and medical personnel, including mental health professionals, are being made available.

[ovOidampUle]

That shooter would have MI seems so obvious it shouldn't even be news to mention it. If there is a "backlash," it might be against inadequate mental health care for veterans specifically, and everyone else in general; we might even wonder if using the prison system as the largest provider of mental health care is such a good idea.

 

Why are you trying to deny that people with MI do terrible things? The people are who commit these atrocities likely have the same thing we do -- just a lot more of it -- and maybe a lot less of the things that keep us stable. It's like you're saying, "We'll accept you as part of the MI community, but  as soon as your MI makes you do something I think is reprehensible, you will no longer be considered mentally ill and I hope you rot in hell." That's bullshit. Anyone who has been to war and potentially had brain damage and suffered from depression and mental illness deserves a lot more from us than simplistic moral condemnation.

 

Yes, he's made the public more suspicious of MI, but It wasn't his fucking job to be a spokesman for the mentally ill. Being MI makes you fucked up, and being fucked up makes you rejected by society. If you're starting some PR campaign to make MI people look like sad teddy bears wearing pink ribbons, I want no part of it.

 

And I haven't read much of anything about the shooting, so maybe I'm massively understanding the event and this reaction to it. I certainly hope so.

[yarnandcats]

i always feel so very sad 

for all involved

and i Chant harder

for a gentler World

[hagar]

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy..." - MLK, Jr.

 

That's all I have to say about it.

[jt07]

Anyone who has been to war and potentially had brain damage and suffered from depression and mental illness deserves a lot more from us than simplistic moral condemnation.

You damn right I will morally condemn this guy. He wasn't someone who was so psychotic that he thought he was defending himself when he killed these people. Nor was he someone who had no control over his actions due to traumatic brain injury. This guy was someone who was just angry and mad at the world. So angry that he wanted to die. But he didn't just want to kill himself; he wanted to take as many people down with him. He is NOT representative of 99.99% of the mentally ill.

 

Similarly, as far as being someone who has been to war, that's a slap in the face to the 99.99% of soldiers who have been to war and who lead productive lives or struggle with their own demons. They do not commit such evil. I'm sure that they would be happy with your using their experiences to excuse this guy's actions.

 

If you're starting some PR campaign to make MI people look like sad teddy bears wearing pink ribbons, I want no part of it.

 

No one is starting any PR campaign, and no one is portraying MI people to look like "teddy bears wearing pink ribbons." But you better damn well believe that there are elements in the media and in society that use events like this to paint MI people as being dangerous people who need to be locked away. In fact, Wayne LaPierre said just as much last year.

 

Finally, no one knows exactly what this guy was suffering from. The news is all confusion on this. But no one has said that he was someone who lacked faculties to know right from wrong.

[Indigo 'n dye]

 

 

Why are you trying to deny that people with MI do terrible things? The people are who commit these atrocities likely have the same thing we do -- just a lot more of it -- and maybe a lot less of the things that keep us stable. It's like you're saying, "We'll accept you as part of the MI community, but  as soon as your MI makes you do something I think is reprehensible, you will no longer be considered mentally ill and I hope you rot in hell." That's bullshit. Anyone who has been to war and potentially had brain damage and suffered from depression and mental illness deserves a lot more from us than simplistic moral condemnation.

 

 

What the fuck are are you talking about?

 

Are you so intent on demeaning me and making yourself look good that you are truly ready to trod this path? STOP putting words in my mouth. If you have questions about my intent or my meaning, ask me. You assumptions are pointless and merely one more way to be patronizing.

[koa]

 

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy..." - MLK, Jr.

 

That's all I have to say about it.

 

 

^^

That is a great quote

[olga]

At least the NPR folks wrote a sympathetic article:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/04/03/298752099/shooting-unfairly-links-violence-with-mental-illness-again

 

Here's a quote that I think is very relevant to this discussion:

 

"One national survey in 2006 found that most Americans — 60 percent — believed people with schizophrenia were likely to be violent. But the vast majority of people with psychiatric disorders are not violent. In fact, another study found they are far more likely to be the victims of violence, and that 1 in 4 experience violence every year."  (My bolding for emphasis)

 

olga

[Indigo 'n dye]

From olga's linked article, "Just raising that question, psychologists and psychiatrists say, shows how much Americans misunderstand the link between mental illness and violence."

 

Along with the previous quote, we have a nice illustration of how such media feeding storms should be, be never are, conducted.

 

This shooting is another sad day in the history of the US. I, for one, am very glad to have a safe space to discuss this event, and other events that do, whether we believe so or not, impact each of us with an MI diagnosis.

 

I want to thank jt for making such a heartfelt response to accusations made earlier in this topic. jt's response covered all the variant hits in the comment.

[ovOidampUle]

[Trigger warning: descriptions of terrible violence.]

"One national survey in 2006 found that most Americans — 60 percent — believed people with schizophrenia were likely to be violent. But the vast majority of people with psychiatric disorders are not violent."

 

Are people with MI (particularly schizophrenia and bipolar) more likely to be violent? I think that is the case. But people are kind of stupid about statistics. They should probably be more worried about a drug addict than someone with bipolar. Heck, they should probably be more worried about getting in their cars. But it is also true that most people with MI are not violent.

 

I'd also say that sometimes the crimes MI people commit are more gruesome (and therefore more newsworthy). Recently -- just a few miles where I am now -- someone with schizophrenia took a hunting knife and disemboweled his mother, probably while she was still alive. Then he waited outside and waited for his father to show up, where he told him, "She put up a good fight." People without MI don't do shit like that. And, yes, most people with MI obviously don't do that, and probably feel the same sickness in their stomach when reading that as I do now. I just don't want us to paper over it and pretend it's not there. 

 

In the public mind, any group is defined by its outliers. The bulk of any group is pretty much the same as the bulk of any other group in most ways. But if you look at the edges of these groups, you'll start finding differences. This is what people look at when they think about "a group," and they always incorrectly extend that difference on the edges to the rest of the group. That's just how the damn human mind works, so it's always going to be an uphill fight.

 

So, if we are starting PR campaigns, here's my plan: The main message is absolutely that most MI people do not commit crime. Also acknowledge that many MI people have problems with the law -- mostly for non-violent offenses. Then we talk about the fraction of a fraction of a fraction of horrible things that happen *when people aren't treated.* Just from a cynical, tactical standpoint, fear of being pushed in front of a train by an untreated homeless person with MI is a great motivator for expanding access to mental health treatment. And even if they don't care for people with MI, they may care for the families that have to choose between having their potentially violent adult children living in their home or out on the street. No family should have to make that choice -- and that's yet another motivator to improve the MI healthcare system.

 

I'm not challenging the concept that most MI people are not violent. I completely 100% agree with that. I'm just trying to get the whole picture b/c I we always make better decisions when we have all the facts.

[Indigo 'n dye]

Lest we forget the victims:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/04/victims-fort-hood-shooting/7293613/

 

Regardless of any and all assertions that this topic is an attempt to start a campaign, of any kind, it is not. This topic and my posts herein are an attempt for ME to process my own emotions.

 

Ignore list is my next stop at CB.

 

Edited to correct typo.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Indigo 'n dye

[Chimako]

I've read several little rants on different articles about "he was mentally ill and THEY STILL ALLOWED HIM TO BUY A GUN". 

[quiet storm]

Today Fox News had the gall to blame Obama for his medical problems (amongst other things).

Kinda made me throw my hands up in the air.

Faux News is not a credible news organization. People who watch Fox News regularly(do I really need to say which particular political slant they lean towards) don't go there for information, they go there for affirmation. They go there to hear what they already believe.

I read a story while back about a poll done in Louisiana where a third of the people polled blamed Obama for Hurricane Katrina. Nevermind that it's silly to blame a human for an act of nature, it also happened three years before he was even president. That's the kind of folks who love Fox News.

Edited April 5, 2014 by quiet storm

[quiet storm]

On the topic of this thread. I guess I don't know what's trying to be said. The guy was obviously mentally ill. Is that not a fact? Is it wrong media organizations stating as much?

[Indigo 'n dye]

On the topic of this thread. I guess I don't know what's trying to be said. The guy was obviously mentally ill. Is that not a fact? Is it wrong media organizations stating as much?

 

Nothing is trying to be said. This is the news and politics thread, the topic title was taken from the first link posted. All to often there is blowback upon the entire mental health community when a tragedy like this takes place.

 

No agenda, no desires, just a place to discuss the event ...with a focus on how the media tends to overstate and over use the MI issue.

[saveyoursanity]

There have been a number of studies that show that rates of violence for people with mental illness (in general) is the same as the general population, and that people with MI are 2.5x to 10x more likely to be victimized than someone without MI.  So in other words, we hurt the same amount of people as everyone else, but get hurt way more.

 

There is (and I didn't know this) apparently a link between mental illness with delusions and violence, for what's probably obvious reasons.  That link may or may not go away with treatment.  Generally PTSD does not qualify as this type of 'serious mental illness.'

 

(here have some source links)

Edited April 6, 2014 by saveyoursanity

[hagar]

Isn't the current theory that this guy was denied leave and then went postal at his place of work, basically? I don't know if that's something that can be blamed on MI, entirely. 

[Indigo 'n dye]

That is what I have been reading, hagar. Yet, his depression and anxiety remain the focus.

 

I agree that lack of self-control and anger are not necessarily related to, nor dependent on, MI. I would wager that the media focus remains on his MI, whatever further findings demonstrate.

 

I heard parts of a local call in talk show were most of the callers stated, in one way or another, that everyone with MI is suspect and should be monitored by law enforcement.

[melissaw72]

 

I heard parts of a local call in talk show were most of the callers stated, in one way or another, that everyone with MI is suspect and should be monitored by law enforcement.

 

Fuck you to the person who said that.

[Indigo 'n dye]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2014/0405/Spc.-Ivan-Lopez-before-Fort-Hood-attack-My-spiritual-peace-has-gone-away.

 

confirm a state of mind that Army officials have also referred to in the wake of the shooting. “He felt like he wasn’t being treated fairly,” one official told the New York Times. “He wasn’t getting what he felt he should have been entitled to.”

 

© The Christian Science Monitor.

[sonicwhite]

I didn't even know there was a second Fort Hood shooting until now.

[melissaw72]

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2014/0405/Spc.-Ivan-Lopez-before-Fort-Hood-attack-My-spiritual-peace-has-gone-away.

 

 

 

confirm a state of mind that Army officials have also referred to in the wake of the shooting. “He felt like he wasn’t being treated fairly,” one official told the New York Times. “He wasn’t getting what he felt he should have been entitled to.”

 

© The Christian Science Monitor.

 

 

The link doesn't work ... says it has been moved?

[Indigo 'n dye]

Let me try the link again...if it fails the search at CSM, Ivan Lopex, will bring up the article, "My spiritual peace has gone away."

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2014/0405/Spc.-Ivan-Lopez-before-Fort-Hood-attack-My-spiritual-peace-has-gone-away.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2014 by Indigo 'n dye

[melissaw72]

^^Thanks ... link works.

[saveyoursanity]

Oh hey, a meta analysis showing that the risk of violence in schizophrenia is probably entirely due to the greater incidence of substance abuse in that population.

 

In other words, no substance abuse, no greater risk of violence.  I'm actually not surprised.

[ovOidampUle]

If he can state his reasons and chooses to act on those reasons, is he suddenly somehow NOT MI?

 

Let's say a friend falls madly in love and after a week chooses to get married. You try to talk her out of it, but she tells you that she's really in love, and that this guy is amazing in so many ways. They've read all the same books, they love to cook together, they both wants kids and a house. You conclude that, although you wouldn't get married that quickly, she has good reasons and is making her own choice. Three months later she shows up at your door with a shopping bag full of clothes and explains she left him that night and needs a place to say. She explains that the air has gone out of the relationship, he's not really the person she thought, and she just really needs to get away from him and can't even stand to be in the same house. If you can't put her up, she'll go to a homeless shelter. She is stating reasons for what she is doing, and she is acting on those reasons, making free and conscious choices. It's her choice. That's just how she is. 

 

But what if she had a personality disorder? What if all these choices she's making and all these reasons she's giving are based on fundamentally flawed thinking and emotions? Where does the mental illness end and the person begin? 

 

I've done things I've regretted because of my MI. I've lied. I've cheated. I've deeply and almost gratuitously hurt the people closest to me. I've refused to accept responsibility for my own actions and furiously, contemptuously blamed the world for my own failures. I don't think of myself as a good person, and have often, looking back, been a bad person. I've never gone on a murderous killing spree, but I understand why someone might. 

 

This isn't about how the media treats MI. This is about how we treat MI, we the members of this board who are here to support each other for problems the rest of the world rejects and does not understand. When we can't fathom that someone might do this based on a personality disorder, when we condemn this guy as being a total dick and evil to boot, we're are doing exactly what drove us into this shelter.

 

Y'all may continue your conversation about the media, fair enough, but I'm feeling alienated by the drift of some of the thinking; and I'm probably not the only one. 

 

Gabba gabba hey.

[melissaw72]

Just read this this morning ...

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/05/us/fort-hood-gunman-facebook/

[Indigo 'n dye]

It forever surprises me that the focus after a tragedy such as this quickly turns to gun control. There is talk, then more talk, but no concrete steps ever seem to be taken.

 

Would a frank discussion, in the media and the government, of better medications for mental illnesses, more aggressive therapies, and more efficient ways to assist with family care be a more productive use of time and energy?

 

ETA: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/04/04/the-challenges-of-mental-illness-and-guns-after-the-fort-hood-shooting

 

Following mass gun shootings, which have become disturbingly frequent in recent years, conversation always turns to gun control. Would such events be stopped by stricter gun laws? Looser ones? But Lopez’s rampage Wednesday also raises the question of access of the mentally ill to guns, as well as a growing mental health crisis in veterans.

“Something is not working,” said Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel after the latest shooting. “We don’t have any choice here but to address what happened, and do everything possible to assure the safety of our men and women who work on these bases and their families. It isn’t a matter of a question or challenge [being] too tough. We will do it.”

Edited April 6, 2014 by Indigo 'n dye

[Wooster]

I think it's a lack of political will, Indigo.

 

Gun control is laudable, but would not have prevented this particular issue, as I understand Mr Lopez bought his gun legally. The fact that we live in a country that has "the right to bear arms" written into the constitution is problematic. People see that as a fundamental right instead of a negotiable point.

 

There are some scary pieces of legislation being proposed to increase support for mental health that would simultaneously decrease the rights of persons with mental illness with regard to involuntary hospitalization.

 

The answer is not increased detention of people with mental illness. Nor is it gun control alone, though I certainly would prefer there be fewer automatic rifles in the world.

 

Preventing people with a history of mental illness from getting access to legal guns might slow something down, but it creates a tension between individual rights and social protection, which this country continues to struggle with due to interpretations of our founding and how they get applied in modern society (ie child welfare laws also come to mind).

 

It seems to me that the way to prevent this kind of violence is at the root... preventing disenfranchisement and enhancing connections.

 

I know... sit in a circle and sing kumbyah hippy chick... but seriously... to get rid of a weed you can chop off the leaves or your can pull out the root.

[Indigo 'n dye]

I am ready to sing, even kumbyah, and I have my weed weasel at the ready.

 

I am heartily sorry that there is little to nothing that can be done right now for Ivan's wife and children. I can only trust they are being gently cared for.

[Chimako]

 

 

I heard parts of a local call in talk show were most of the callers stated, in one way or another, that everyone with MI is suspect and should be monitored by law enforcement.

 

Fuck you to the person who said that.

 

 

That's what bothered me the most as well.  

[december_brigette]

I read about this story the first day it happened - mostly out of confusion - I couldn't believe there was a second shooting at Ft Hood.

 

This is my little point: regardless of this dude's dx's or what meds he was or wasn't taking - its been mentioned that he was taking ambien.

 

That suggests he was having sleep problems. Due to military things? IDK? Due to being an regular insomniac likesome of us? maybe?

 

Ambien - If I was the queen of the FDA I would have pulled that shit out of pharmacies long ago. That shit can make people do wild things. I don't know what the studies are/aren't on how it affects people when they are awake during their normal awake times. But I know what it did to me. I had no desire to be violent but I was certainly very messed up. I took it for 5 days. As soon as I quit my mind and insomnia went back to normal. Not the best thing, but better than being on ambien.

 

just my 2 cents,

db