Depression Hurts? TV ads...what do you think?

[Penny Century]

I've noticed some new ads put out by Lily about how "Depression Hurts"

I have several questions about these ads, and I'd like to hear what people think of them...

1) Presently i'm off antidepressants (after 10 years on them) and i THINK i'm doing ok.  (i did a LOT of talk therapy, am taking LOTS of supplements (as rx'd by a doctor,) do take adderall for ADD and xanax xr for anxiety... but i THINK i've finally got my depression under control...)

OR DO I?

2) i have developed pain issues.  (muscle and joint pain.)  my dad (fan of uneducated off the wall theories) stated one day that maybe it was b/c i'd been on SSRIs/SNRIs my whole life (since age 15) and maybe this is like a long ass term withdrawl (he watched me come off effexor after being on it for 4+ years and he saw how unpleasant that was for me, so i think this is part of where he gets this notion)

is this at all possible...  my doctors have many a theory about the pain (from lyme disease to CFS) but as of yet no real answer or solution.

Am i in pain for "physical" reasons... or am i actually depressed and need to go back on ADs?

3) do you think ANY of what they are saying is legit, or is it just an effort to get more people to buy their medications??

any other thoughts???

[Jemini]

They're inventing symptoms. Yes depression can lead to physical problems, but these problems are not part of depression itself, any more than bedsores are symptoms of a broken back.

Aching in joints and muscles has been reported as an effect of SSRI withdrawal, but that doesn't mean this is the cause of your pain. How long have you been off these meds, and what were the dosages you'd been on? 10 years is a long time.

[Penny Century]

They're inventing symptoms. Yes depression can lead to physical problems, but these problems are not part of depression itself, any more than bedsores are symptoms of a broken back.

Aching in joints and muscles has been reported as an effect of SSRI withdrawal, but that doesn't mean this is the cause of your pain. How long have you been off these meds, and what were the dosages you'd been on? 10 years is a long time.

i've been off SNRIs since... last may?

i've been on every SSRI/SNRI on the market.  When I went off meds I was on 350 (?) effexor and 300 wellbutrin xl.  but i'd run the gambit prior to that, hitting the highest doses of almost all the SSRIs/SNRIs. 

part of why my doctor pulled me off was b/c i'd almost exausted my medication possibilities, and he wanted to see if maybe that was b/c they just don't work that well for me.  and in the end, he was right.  (for me... not for others, just talking me here.) 

how long can effexor withdrawl possibly last??  by going on them at such a young age, could i possibly have made myself dependant for life?  (daddy paranoia sneeking in here.)

i've been contemplating going back on a low dose of wellbutrin, but the whole "pain" thing of depression isn't dealt with by wellbutrin.  i think i might in the end need a small  bet of pharma help here... but i'd like to stay away from the seratonin messers b/c i think they severly aggrivated my issues.

i'm meeting w/ my doctor next month, and will of course talk to him about all of this, but it's always good to have a broad base of opinions/ knowledge, ya know?

[Jemini]

I highly recommend the book _Your Drug May Be Your Problem_, by Breggin. I got it at the library. It covers a lot of the issues of withdrawal from specific psych meds, covering most classes. It also goes into the types of things that can present after the physical withdrawal effects are gone. Whether you can benefit from meds or not, this book is very eye-opening.

Can you describe the physical pain in more detail? Is it sharp? Dull? Always there, or aggravated by certain activity? More in the morning and at night?

[Penny Century]

I highly recommend the book _Your Drug May Be Your Problem_, by Breggin. I got it at the library. It covers a lot of the issues of withdrawal from specific psych meds, covering most classes. It also goes into the types of things that can present after the physical withdrawal effects are gone. Whether you can benefit from meds or not, this book is very eye-opening.

Can you describe the physical pain in more detail? Is it sharp? Dull? Always there, or aggravated by certain activity? More in the morning and at night?

Breggin ... he's not on my good boy list.  i may need more selling on this.

pain... basically i have "arthralgias"... no elevation in sed rate (inflamation rate) but i have arthritis.  stiff joints in hands, knees, wrists, you name it.  and carpal and tarsal tunnel syndrome.  doc thinks this may be stemming from a thyroid problem that we are working on treating (hitting optimum levels is slow)... but this whole "depression hurts" campaign has me doubting if this is "real" or "in my head."  (as if it wasn't a long enough struggle to find a doctor that beleives women have real pain and health problems that need attention and treatment, now i'm doubting myself, lol.  oh the irony.)

[Jemini]

well it sounds like more than meds withdrawal, based on what little i know. my only other thought is that if you go to a GP, you're likely to get a physical disorder dx, possibly with a referral to a specialist, and if you go to a pdoc, you're more likely (than with a GP) to get into areas relating to your mental health.

these things all appeared since may?

[Penny Century]

well it sounds like more than meds withdrawal, based on what little i know. my only other thought is that if you go to a GP, you're likely to get a physical disorder dx, possibly with a referral to a specialist, and if you go to a pdoc, you're more likely (than with a GP) to get into areas relating to your mental health.

these things all appeared since may?

i see a pdoc and a GP about this.  (same office, they share info.)

did it start in may... hm.  sort-of.  fatigue set in in may, pain really became an issue in july ish?  (so hard to remember specifics... when you're sick you don't keep the best records, sadly.)

[revlow]

Yes, depression can cause bodily symtoms like this. The ad you are referring to is for Cymbalta. They have been touting the pain relief aspects of Cymbalta since the 1st pre-launch press release. However, I don't know if there have actually been any concrete studies showing that relationship, or whether it is particularly better in that department than other ADs. Might be...just don't know.

It is in the same SNRI category as Effexor. I've taken both (Effexor for about 15 years, switched to Cymbalta last Spring). I can't say I really noticed a difference in terms of muscle and joint pain, but I may have a much milder level than you of these symptoms. I started taking Lamictal in Sept., and I am currently titrating down on Cymbalta. Soon after I started taking the Lamictal, I started to get severe muscle pain and tightness -- I thought I was getting it from lowering the Cymbalta, but soon learned it was the temporary side effects of the Lamictal.

Wish I could provide more info. I would strongly suggest you post this in [url="http://www.crazyboards.org/index.php?showforum=11"]Non-SSRI Antidepressants

[Steve@3AM]

Others have asked the questions re onset etc that I was thinking of.

Only other thought that I have is that even though pain etc CAN be symptom of depression it is not usually the ONLY symptom - as far as I am aware - AND it would seem strange (to me) for your depression to "come back" in the form of pain if that was not the type of symptom you had previously. "Withdrawal" was my initial thought, but 6 months is a LONG withdrawal! But after taking high doses for 10 years, maybe your bod did go thru some major adaptations that it is now trying to cope with.

Is the pain still getting worse?

Another question/thought is "what supplements"? Supplements are still "meds" of a sort and CAN have adverse effects themselves. Like meds they don't serve all people the same way. Something to look at,

Just thoughts!

Steve

[ncc1701]

Heya,

(We get those ads here on US channels; on Canadian channels we get them but without drug names.)

Like Steve said.

Depression is *known* to cause physical effects, like muscle pain, fatigue, decreased/increased appetite, sleepiness/lack of sleep, motor slowing, nerve-type pain.

Hard to know for people what is "depression" and what is just them.

And hard to know what's a med effect or withdrawal effect.

I think the ad isn't totally out-to-lunch, but like any ad it's exaggerated for effect and sales.

--ncc--

[Jemini]

Yeah that's a good point -- are you actually depressed still? Do you have relatively low energy, sleep a lot, low motivation, sex drive, appetite, etc? Or is it just the physical symptoms since stopping the SSRIs?

[resonance]

Yes, depression can be manifested exclusively physically. This is more common in some non-U.S. countries - the depression-as-psychological seems to be more of a Western thing.

[revlow]

is this at all possible...

[revlow]

Yes, depression can be manifested exclusively physically. This is more common in some non-U.S. countries - the depression-as-psychological seems to be more of a Western thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting. Once again our more linear, black-and-white thinking here getting in the way of seeing the big picture. 

[Greenyflower]

I finally saw the "Depression Hurts" ad on Sunday. I burst out laughing at the shot of a sad looking dog holding a ball in its mouth. I needed that. When you're depressed, even the dog is miserable.

Greeny

[Loon-A-TiK]

It is very true that depression has physical symptoms, especially for people who do not culturally *accept* (like people from India in general, for example) our psychiatric model, or it hasn't been a part of their practices.

But I think you are saying that you do feel it is a psychological issue, so I think we can assume that usually, if not almost always, your depression will manifest in some way emotionally.

There is also something called a somatization disorder, which is pain with no organic cause.

I think those ads bring up a good point, at least getting people to think about what could be behind their physical ailments. Some people are in denial about depression- how could it happen to them? What is their "weakness"??

I know nothing about various med withdrawls, except my huge battle with Paxil. I've tried for about 4 years. It just makes me shake, sweat, get random hot and cold flashes. I'm sure experiences will vary.

But consider the somatization disorder. I never knew it existed until yesterday

peace!]

your loon

[Spencer]

I am depressed and I hurt, so I take Ultram. It is a great antidepressant and is an okay pain medication.

[Breeze]

OK, I read part of this thread because I have seen the ads. At first I was kinda of excited that they would bring depression out in the open. It doesn't mean you have all those or any symptoms, but to me this meant - out of the closet and on national TV - THIS IS GREAT. How many people are sitting in their houses, miserable in their lives, because they are depressed? Think about it.

Then I saw it was by a drug company and I about puked. I guess it's a start though. We really do need a way to reach those people who need help and are too scared to get it. The proud, the few, the unmedicated.

But starting it out with a drug company - shit.

Breeze

[wakko926]

I feel ya on this one Breeze

I was excited too when I first saw the commercial

Went to the website to see what it had to say

And then found out it was by the drug company

Big disappointment

[Steve@3AM]

I sort of relate to it like I do to the Wellbutrin ad. "Feel your old self again". I don't really remember an "old self" that wasn't at some level depressed. Maybe when I was 4. Is that what they mean?

I do understand what you mean about getting it out in the open, though. Maybe get some people that need to deal with it to ask. People that don't need it might still look at it as drug companies appealing to another hypochondriac.

[Jemini]

Drug companies are the primary source of information on the treatment of most mental illnesses these days, not only for the majority of the public, but for psychiatrists and other medical doctors. It's a fascinating situation. Psychologists are the least influenced by the pharmaceutical industry's billion dollar annual "education" effort, since psychologists are not required to receive the ongoing continuing education credits that MDs do (in the US). Pharmaceutical companies directly provide about 90% of the CE training received by doctors, through mutually lucrative agreements with teaching hospitals. Some current conditions were initially proposed by pharmaceutical companies, like generalized anxiety disorder, in response to drugs that had been researched and needed a market. Likewise many of the new uses found for older drugs are initiated by the drug companies to compete with generic medications, since new patents can be applied to new applications of the same drug.

I'm just saying.

[ncc1701]

Heya folks,

FYI what Jemini said applied to us docs in Canuckistan until recently.

The evil pharmaceuticals are still allowed to have booths giving out free pens at our conferences.

And can give us out free samples at the office.  Which, to be honest, are great for my patients who can't afford meds, but most of us would *never* hand out to patients who didn't need them.

(Sure, sir, here's some Alesse.)

And they are on equal footing with banks and insurance companies and the armed forces (yes, we have armed forces) and the government and anyone else in terms of sponsoring these conferences.

But the new rules don't let them pay for good dinners, alcohol (wine slipped through as a "food" until this year, which is funny b/c I stopped drinking this year), golf, the works.

And, the speakers have to announce their funding/interests.

Or else, it's not credited for continuing education points.

Don't know how it is in the States.

But I have to say it's made a difference in our continuing education.

If some doc you respect is shilling for Zyprexa, that's one thing.

If the same doc you respect is shilling for Zyprexa, Risperdal, Seroquel, and also really likes lithium,  that's a horse of another colour.

Some docs get righteously indignant, because what, they can buy me for a steak but they can't buy me for a sub?

But it's the principle.

End threadjack.

--ncc--

[reddog]

just my 2 cents worth...i have several friends with chronic pain & my husband works in cancer research, so he hears a lot about pain management as well as pure research.

i think the commercial is pretty hinky...yeah it's a drug company trying to pump up sales BUT there is a proven, researched connection between antidepressants and pain management:  for reasons yet unknown, some people with chronic pain will find a measure (not total, but some relief) with treatment with antidepressants.  prozac was the one i always heard of being used for that.

but it's (in some ways) legit, but i don't like the way the commercial portrays it....like, your body hurts, go get some happy pills.

the way the research ran was they took people with severe chronic pain from organic disorders (back injuries, fibro, rheumatoid arthritis, etc) and gave them prozac and the patients reported some relief.  still unknown how it works, but it gave docs another weapon in the arsenal against chronic debilitating pain.

[Jemini]

Funnily, there are accepted psychological arguments on the role of serotonin in primate dominance hierarchies that would explain why serotonin affects the perception of pain and why anti-depressants reduce one's awareness of physical pain, but you'll never hear about such research from the drug companies, because the idea that a pill is altering your perception of social importance doesn't sell that well.

Is that a threadjack or on-topic? We're talking about what depression can do, right? It can definitely increase sensitivity to all sorts of pain, both physical and mental, and anything that reduces depression could in theory reduce this sensitivity.

[LikeMinded]

Of course the big D can manifest itself physically... my mother had nothing but vague aches and severe heart palpitations before being dx'ed MDD/GAD last year.  Paxil solved the problem within several weeks.  It's ridiculously common in eastern and southern Asian countries for depression to manifest itself that way... when society encourages you to suppress basic 'emotions', the depression and anxiety don't come out.  That is, unless you're completely psychotic, in which case you're labelled as a nutcase (Amok in Malaysia, Paithia in Tamil-speaking regions of southern India, and so forth). 

I'd been trying to come off Cymbalta, and it was an utter failure.  A few weeks after going from 60 to 30mg, everything that used to hurt (namely my orthopaedic neck pain and chronic ankle tendonitis) hurt a hell of a lot more.  I'm going back up to 60mg today (mainly since the big D is making a comeback, bigtime, and the pain doesn't help either).  I totally believe that serotonin and norep. are very critical in regulation of 'physical' sensation.

The bizarre thing is that neither my pdoc nor I can figure out the exact reason the Cymbalta dose was decreased!  Perhaps she was afraid of too much AD ('mania-provoking') action, seeing I was already taking Provigil, Trazodone, and Lamictal.

No wonder Cymbalta had huge success in diabetic peripheral neuropathy (rec. dose 60-120mg there!).