Ferguson, MO

Unstrung Harp · August 14, 2014

Crazy things happening over there in Ferguson, Missouri, USA. Unarmed black 18-year-old shot dead by police in broad daylight. Resulting unrest. SWAT teams arresting reporters in McDonalds. Police in SWAT gear firing flash grenades, tear gas and rubber bullets into crowds of peaceful protesters, demanding the press turn off their cameras. At least the no fly zone has been lifted. But things are escalating. When is the National Guard going to be sent?

63% of the city's population is black. 94% of police are white. Blacks make up 86% of traffic stops and 92% of all arrests in the town. Something's not right.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-missouri-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.html?_r=0

Just another day in Post-Racial America©.

http://alj.am/Y21LA5

evilnessness · August 14, 2014

Yes, this is a pretty messed up area. Here is a live feed of the protests. http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/

Edited August 14, 2014 by evilnessness

SoaringRaven · August 14, 2014

This is unreal. I can definitely see why the community is so fired up about this-- between all the high-profile murders of unarmed blacks (especially young people), and the systematic racism that seems so inherent in our criminal "justice" system...

Unfortunately, I doubt that this will change anything in regards to the systematic injustices against minorities. We'll continue to see lives destroyed... it's truly tragic.

My heart goes out to Mr. Brown's family and friends.

december_brigette · August 14, 2014

I saw something about the no-fly zone last night but I didn't really believe it and it was too late for me to look it up. Now that I've read it - I see it and Im dumbstruck.

May cooler, peaceful heads prevail,

db

Stickler · August 14, 2014

Apparently, nobody bothered to announce it was Police Unjustified Use Of DeadlyForce month....

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/3-unarmed-black-african-american-men-killed-police

Edited August 14, 2014 by Stickler

tooladdict · August 14, 2014

At 92% it's hard to believe racism bears all the blame.

december_brigette · August 14, 2014

I was looking at some more photos of the situation and it occurred to me that this is really in the middle of America. (Im sure someone can give me a more geographic reference point). I think, this should not be happening in the US. Look at the crap happening in Iraq or Israel/Gaza but in the middle of America???? You would think we would be the ones more humane, more peaceful. I don't know, I guess I just seem to hold the US up high and think "No, we would never drop down to *their* atrocities. But yes, we are. We are killing black people just for the hell of it. Any different than what's happening in those other countries? No. Is anyone going to smack our ass and say "stop killing black people?"

db

SoaringRaven · August 14, 2014

Even with all of this going on, a lot of people -still- don't understand why there is so much distrust of the police in the US. Every week it seems, we hear more incidents of cops killing unarmed persons; cops raiding people's homes (only to be at the wrong house); the rise in number of prisoners...

While I understand the need for law enforcement, we as a society are doing something wrong in that area. Police brutality, racial bias, and abuses of power are all too common.

ovOidampUle · August 14, 2014

I guess we can argue about whether arrests are based on poverty, not race; or whether the crimes blacks commit are easier to spot; or whether they are more exposed to arrest for being on the street; maybe we will even find out, in this case, that the shooting was wholly justified.

But I don't really care how many if's and therefores and whereby's there are: Images like this should not exist. (*)

(* And not because we should be shooting the photographers who take them.)

jt07 · August 14, 2014

Yeah, it's hard to believe that's an image taken in America. Just shameful. It looks like an army complete with gas masks against an unarmed black man. It looks like what you'd expect in a police state, not the US. Is this not still the "Land of the Free?" I guess it still is the "Home of the Brave" because you have to be brave to live here.

Sync · August 14, 2014

Been following this situation all day. The Ferguson PD has been relieved of their duties by the state highway patrol. The captain in charge of the police response now is handling it very well, in my opinion. He grew up in the area, he's speaking to the crowd from a place of respect and understanding. All cops are in regular uniform, no riot gear, no rifles, no gas masks. They're marching with the protesters rather than forming a police line, and setting up media staging areas. The crowd seems, understandably, to be much happier with the state patrol in charge.

Here's a picture of Captain Johnson of the Missouri State Highway Patrol marching with the protesters.

jt07 · August 15, 2014

You gotta ask what were they thinking marching officers out like soldiers in gas masks. Could they not see how this would play in the rest of the ~~country~~ world?

koa · August 15, 2014

This is just... I would say shocking but it's not... dismaying... I'm glad calmer heads seem to be prevailing now.

Sync · August 15, 2014

Ugh. There's a parallel peaceful protest in solidarity with Ferguson going on in NYC and the cops are rounding them up and arresting them despite them all being on the sidewalk and not obstructing traffic.

Wooster · August 15, 2014

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/

Squish · August 15, 2014

At 92% it's hard to believe racism bears all the blame.

I can believe it.

From St. Louis Post-Dispatch, who got their stats from Ferguson Police Department:

"Last year, Ferguson police searched 12.1 percent of black drivers they stopped, compared to 6.9 percent for whites. Contraband was found 22 percent of the time when the driver was black and 34 percent when the driver was white."

You're more likely to get your car searched if you're black, despite the fact that you are less likely to have contraband in your car. How is this not 100% racism?

Edited August 15, 2014 by Squish

Unstrung Harp · August 16, 2014

At 92% it's hard to believe racism bears all the blame.

I wasn't suggesting it bears all the blame, or that people of color do not ever commit crimes, though you seem to be implying that I was. Are you implying anything else, tooladdict? Regardless, if racism, overt or institutional, is even partly to blame for some of those numbers, and I highly suspect that it is, that is completely unacceptable.

Squish posted some good information after me, but did you have a chance to look at any of the links in my original post? One example that you would find in the second link says that:

"According to the Missouri Attorney General’s office, in 2013 nearly 90 percent of vehicles pulled over by Ferguson police were driven by African-Americans. The arrest rate was of those drivers was more than 10%, nearly double that of white drivers who were pulled over." Sure, one could draw different conclusions about that statement that might resonate with his or her belief system, if he or she didn't look at the data or listen to people describe their experiences (also data). More specific information on that statement could be found in the report linked to in the article, published by the Missouri state's Attorney General's Office http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

An earlier report by the Missouri state's Attorney General's Office (http://ago.mo.gov/racialprofiling/2000/racialprofiling2000.htm) sums the issue up this way (the emphasis is mine):

Racial profiling is not a visible problem to most white Americans; thus, there has been a tendency by the majority to ignore or dismiss these concerns expressed by African Americans and other people of color. Yet a national poll shows that 77 percent of African Americans believe racial profiling is pervasive. When law-abiding citizens -- including ministers, lawyers, teachers, students and even off-duty police officers -- believe they have been stopped simply because of their race, it focuses attention on a problem that we must address if we are to grow together as a community.

I have a son who looks a certain way that means I will probably not have to lecture him about how not to get himself hassled, arrested or shot by the police just for walking down the wrong street at the wrong time. Many people in the US do not have that luxury of assuming that their sons will be treated with respect or presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. That is significant, and intolerable, and I don't care if that is responsible for even 1% of the arrests of people of color, though data suggests that it is responsible for much, much more.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Unstrung Harp

malachite · August 16, 2014

America was never the home of the free or the brave, imo. We were founded by slaughtering, raping and infecting the indigenous people here. Our "civilization" was built on the backs of slaves and indentured servants. The institutional racism in this country is appalling. I feel like every day there is a new story of white cops beating or killing unarmed minority people. Sorry this is a generalization, rather than a comment on the specifics of Ferguson. But, I do think it is representative of a lot of the country at large.

Sloane · August 19, 2014

America was never the home of the free or the brave, imo. We were founded by slaughtering, raping and infecting the indigenous people here. Our "civilization" was built on the backs of slaves and indentured servants. The institutional racism in this country is appalling. I feel like every day there is a new story of white cops beating or killing unarmed minority people. Sorry this is a generalization, rather than a comment on the specifics of Ferguson. But, I do think it is representative of a lot of the country at large.

(from bold)

As was most of other countries and areas of land; Rome and Ancient Greece, Celtic Tribes, Great Britain and Ireland, many countries of Africa (which still have an abundance have slavery, slaughtering, and raping), Islamic Powers, Spain and African Slaves, and India which has the longest recording of practiced slavery.

Conquering, over powering, and slavery is how the majority of nations and countries were built and sustained. America was actually the only country who had a war to abolish slavery because it was seen as unacceptable and not just unlawful (which is a difference), rather because it wasn't profitable (like why South America stopped slavery), or in other places like Africa, parts of Russia and India where the Slave Trade still exists (illegally) to this day.

p.s as for the "founded by slaughtering, raping, and infecting indigenous people" - speaking as Native American here BTW, having a grandfather who was born and raised on a reservation in NC, there were many tribes who also would conquer land, and enslave other tribes. Their bodies were infected by white man diseases because their immune system was not built and never had been subjected to, such antibodies. There is a lot of misinformation out there, even what is supposed to be "positive" towards the early government - like most of George Washington's "peace treaty" ideas (which were to actually plans to "humanize and colonize" all Native American Culture - AKA abolish it).

The institutional racism in this country is appalling. I feel like every day there is a new story of white cops beating or killing unarmed minority people. Sorry this is a generalization, rather than a comment on the specifics of Ferguson. But, I do think it is representative of a lot of the country at large.

I, personally, do not think this is a representative of a lot of the country at large.

I am from the Deep South (South Carolina/Georgia Line - in the boon docks) - and different areas of the country are very, very different. What you see on the news, or even see out your window, does not withhold a generalization of what "everywhere" is like.

In the surrounding counties here - the Native Americans are the minority, following whites/Caucasians, then Hispanic/Latino, with African American being the majority. I also have never heard the "n" word being used with such hate and disgust (and just pure ignorance) from a white community (as in, several people in a conversation) until I went to the Midwest.

As for cops killing minority people in this area, most of the officers are minorities in one way or another (by race or by lower class).

------

Back to Ferguson, MO

I am disheartened, and angry, that any of this happened. As well that is has unfolded like this.

There are racists all over the country; wearing anything from overalls to police uniforms, and having white skin, or yellow skin, or brown skin, or black skin. However a lot of mistakes have been made by the entire police department just to cover up a "comrade". Whether an entire police department is full of racists, is seemingly arguable (grey areas: like officers covering for officers, under ranked officers taking orders, etc). However when you have a human do a horrible act, you have to make choices - and not just as a fellow police officer or a department head to cover your ass - but as a human being, and as a leader and protector of your entire community.

Shit got way, way, way, out of hand. Unnecessarily in the hands of the department. I hope not only this family find justice, but this entire community find peace.

water · August 19, 2014

Sad and tragic, and hysterically funny all at the same time.

John Oliver's take on Ferguson.

ovOidampUle · August 19, 2014

Sloane -- I was writing a long reply, but Langston Hughes said it best.

Let America be America Again

Let America be America again.

Let it be the dream it used to be.

Let it be the pioneer on the plain

Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--

Let it be that great strong land of love

Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme

That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty

Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,

But opportunity is real, and life is free,

Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,

Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?

And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,

I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.

I am the red man driven from the land,

I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--

And finding only the same old stupid plan

Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,

Tangled in that ancient endless chain

Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!

Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!

Of work the men! Of take the pay!

Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.

I am the worker sold to the machine.

I am the Negro, servant to you all.

I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--

Hungry yet today despite the dream.

Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!

I am the man who never got ahead,

The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream

In the Old World while still a serf of kings,

Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,

That even yet its mighty daring sings

In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned

That's made America the land it has become.

O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas

In search of what I meant to be my home--

For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,

And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,

And torn from Black Africa's strand I came

To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?

Surely not me? The millions on relief today?

The millions shot down when we strike?

The millions who have nothing for our pay?

For all the dreams we've dreamed

And all the songs we've sung

And all the hopes we've held

And all the flags we've hung,

The millions who have nothing for our pay--

Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--

The land that never has been yet--

And yet must be--the land where every man is free.

The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--

Who made America,

Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,

Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,

Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--

The steel of freedom does not stain.

From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,

We must take back our land again,

America!

O, yes,

I say it plain,

America never was America to me,

And yet I swear this oath--

America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,

The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,

We, the people, must redeem

The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.

The mountains and the endless plain--

All, all the stretch of these great green states--

And make America again!

Langston Hughes

Gearhead · August 19, 2014

I was looking at some more photos of the situation and it occurred to me that this is really in the middle of America. (Im sure someone can give me a more geographic reference point). I think, this should not be happening in the US. Look at the crap happening in Iraq or Israel/Gaza but in the middle of America???? You would think we would be the ones more humane, more peaceful. I don't know, I guess I just seem to hold the US up high and think "No, we would never drop down to *their* atrocities. But yes, we are. We are killing black people just for the hell of it. Any different than what's happening in those other countries? No. Is anyone going to smack our ass and say "stop killing black people?"

db

The geographic center of the contiguous United States is a point near the town of Lebanon, Kansas.

Or if you prefer: the geographic center of the United States, including Alaska and Hawaii, which is in South Dakota.

Stickler · August 21, 2014

Skin privilege is invisible if you have it.

I think I mentioned before?

I believe I'd have a felony conviction for someone else's hot check if I was black.

This did not occur to me until I was in my 30's, many years after the event.

crtclms · September 14, 2014

We lived in St. Louis when I was a little girl, and it was incredibly racist. Border states. People used the "N" word so much my parents went on a campaign to make sure I understood it was a very, very, very bad word that I should never use. I remember telling a baby sitter it was wrong to use it, and she laughed at me.

When I meet black people from St. Louis, they often perk up when I tell them what our experience was, and are happy to have a white person admit it.

SoaringRaven · November 25, 2014

I am beyond disgusted by the decision that he grand jury reached.

water · November 25, 2014

Michael Brown was unarmed.

Wilson shot him twice while sitting in the cruiser.

Wilson shot him ten times 90 seconds later when Brown was away from the car.

Wilson said he was afraid of the look on Mr. Brown's face.

Wilson had NO injuries from a struggle.

Michael Brown was left lying on the street for four hours.

Whether Wilson is racist is immaterial.

He shot dead an unarmed man. There will be no trial. That is a travesty.

We treat African Americans as second class citizens. We have different rules for different folks.

We have armed policemen shooting at people as if we lived in Iraq.

There is no justice for Michael Brown's family. No one will ever bring back this young man but neither will his mother have peace that justice was served.

larkspur · November 25, 2014

I am blown away by the ineptitude of the (white) prosecutor here. Rather than laying out a case against Darren Wilson, he did the bare minimum and just showed the grand jury (who were, I believe, almost entirely white) all of the evidence they found and left it up to them to decide. The prosecutor did not do his job, which is to seek justice for the young man who was murdered, and make a compelling argument for one or more of the proposed charges. I, for one, refuse to believe that the shooting of Michael Brown was not, at a bare minimum, negligent. There is every indication that Brown was incapacitated after the initial two shots, and that the TEN!! subsequent shots were wildly unnecessary.

The way I see it, if police can be justified in using lethal force, it is the obligation of the legal system to ensure that they only do so when absolutely necessary. Officer involved shootings, because of the power dynamic implicit in the roles, should be held to the highest, strictist standards of scrutiny that the law allows. There is no world in which a young man stealing a package of cigarillos justifies lethal use of force--regardless of whether he reached for the gun, if he was big and scary (Wilson compared him to the Incredible Hulk), or whatever else the officer wants to claim. The prosecutor gave the grand jury a convenient "out"--that Brown was in the process of committing a "felony" (though no prosecutor worth his salt would ever charge someone with no criminal history with a felony for stealing an item worth $5...), and therefore Wilson was justified. It's absolutely shameful. The Brown family had nobody to advocate for them, and the outcome of the grand jury is a grave miscarriage of justice.

My one remaining hope is that the family of Michael Brown should have no trouble amassing a well-qualified, pro-bono team of lawyers who will sue Darren Wilson and Ferguson PD for wrongful death. I hope that they are awarded a healthy sum, and that they use the money for the good of their community.

jt07 · November 25, 2014

One big problem is the law in Missouri (and some other states, I believe) that give wide latitude to the police to use deadly force. These laws need to be changed.

melissaw72 · November 25, 2014

the grand jury (who were, I believe, almost entirely white)

Yes. 9 white, 3 black on the jury.

g8orgirl · November 25, 2014

I'm not sure what I believe about what happened on that day but regardless looting and burning down the town is simply not the way to react to this. I'm saddened by the events going on there and I hope things calm down for the residents there soon.

larkspur · November 25, 2014

the grand jury (who were, I believe, almost entirely white)

Yes. 9 white, 3 black on the jury.

How convenient that it takes 4 "no" votes to invalidate the grand jury and make them reconvene a new one.

water · November 25, 2014

the grand jury (who were, I believe, almost entirely white)

Yes. 9 white, 3 black on the jury.

How convenient that it takes 4 "no" votes to invalidate the grand jury and make them reconvene a new one.

The Grand Jury is made up of 6 white men, 3 white women, 2 black women and 1 black man.

Nine votes are needed to indict.

The Grand Jury: Heard 3 months of very conflicting evidence and made their decision over one weekend.

Two very interesting articles about what went on in that courtroom.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-atypical-approach-grand-jury-in-ferguson-shooting-receives-full-measure-of-case/2014/09/07/1dec6ffe-339b-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

http://http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-grand-jury-weighed-mass-of-evidence-much-of-it-conflicting.html

larkspur · November 26, 2014

So when a District Attorney says, in effect, "we'll present the evidence and let the grand jury decide," that's malarkey. If he takes that approach, then he's already decided to abdicate his role in the process as an advocate for justice. At that point, there's no longer a prosecutor in the room guiding the grand jurors, and — more importantly — no state official acting on behalf of the victim, Michael Brown...

Then, when you add to the mix that minorities are notoriously underrepresented on grand juries, you have the potential for nullification — of a grand jury declining to bring charges even when there is sufficient probable cause. That's the real danger to this approach.

That's an excerpt from an excellent article published here: http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7175967/darren-wilson-charges-michael-brown-ferguson

crtclms · November 26, 2014

I'm not sure what I believe about what happened on that day but regardless looting and burning down the town is simply not the way to react to this. I'm saddened by the events going on there and I hope things calm down for the residents there soon.

How should residents of Ferguson act? What attempt to work within the system haven't they tried? Where is that anger and fear supposed to go?

And what is so good about where they live that they would want to save it, now that they know their sons are targets?

A boy was shot meters and meters away from the shooter, under Color of Law. Now they know it could happen to *any* their sons, AND that the perpetrator might suffer no consequences. They are angry beyond reason, and it is completely understandable.

"What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up

Like a raisin in the sun?

Or fester like a sore-

And then run?

Does it stink like rotten meat?

Or crust and sugar over-

Like a syrupy fruit?

Maybe it just sags

Like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

-Langston Hughes

The looting was stupid, but you never hear about it when there is white looting. I was in SF during the Rodney King Verdict, and only one incident was mentioned, and I saw with my own little eyes a lot more looting than that. At least the looters in Ferguson have an underlying source for their rage.

Squish · November 26, 2014

I am blown away by the ineptitude of the (white) prosecutor here. Rather than laying out a case against Darren Wilson, he did the bare minimum and just showed the grand jury (who were, I believe, almost entirely white) all of the evidence they found and left it up to them to decide. The prosecutor did not do his job, which is to seek justice for the young man who was murdered, and make a compelling argument for one or more of the proposed charges. I, for one, refuse to believe that the shooting of Michael Brown was not, at a bare minimum, negligent. There is every indication that Brown was incapacitated after the initial two shots, and that the TEN!! subsequent shots were wildly unnecessary.

I wouldn't call it ineptitude, the prosecutor is the president of the "charity" that has raised $432k for Darren Wilson. I really doubt he ever had any intention of getting the man indicted. Not that it should be at all difficult to indict someone either; in 2009 and 2010 only 0.0068% of grand juries did not vote to return an indictment. It's incredibly rare.

It makes me so sad and angry and I'm a white person who doesn't live in America.

g8orgirl, even Dr Martin Luther King said, "a riot is the language of the unheard".

Also apparently white people after sports events, but that isn't publicized quite as much. Sigh.

Link

g8orgirl · November 26, 2014

I don't know how they should react crtclms but burning down businesses and stealing is not okay no matter how pissed off people are. And yes white people loot and riot more often than is mentioned in the media.

ananke · November 26, 2014

Not to get all moral high ground-y, since I'm a white Brit, but I found this quotation by Spike Lee on his Film "Do The Right Thing":

“It disturbed me how some critics would talk about the loss of property — which is really saying white-owned property — but not the loss of life. Do the Right Thing was a litmus test. If in a review, a critic discussed how Sal’s Famous was burned down but didn’t mention anything about Radio Raheem getting killed, it seemed obvious that he or she valued white-owned property more than the life of this young black hoodlum. To me, loss of life outweighs loss of property. You can rebuild a building. I mean, they’re rebuilding New Orleans now but the people that died there are never coming back.”

ED: changed the font

Edited November 26, 2014 by ananke

crtclms · November 26, 2014

I don't know how they should react crtclms but burning down businesses and stealing is not okay no matter how pissed off people are. And yes white people loot and riot more often than is mentioned in the media.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Did I say it was a good thing? Or that it is legal? I did not. I said it was an understandable that given no legal outlet that will treat black people fairly, it really isn't surprising people were so extremely angry they weren't thinking straight.

People who have teenaged boys are terrified and angry. They really don't give much of a fuck if it is illegal, because look at what *is* legal: Shooting an unarmed teenager from several meters away.

What about that riot in Maine? What about

water · November 26, 2014

The looting and burning and destroying is from rage and anger and frustration.

Not the kind of looting that occurs after a natural disaster, when people take advantage of abandoned stores and houses.

For the first time in my life as a result of personal trauma, I understand what would make someone who might not normally lash out, give up and start fires.

Not an appropriate reaction, not a safe reaction, not a very good reaction.

But that is just what this is. A rage reaction.

"I work my ass off, I buy a house for my family, I am a part of this society but I am treated like an animal. Fuk you!!"

There are some who are taking advantage of the situation, creepy crawly awful people making violence for violence's sake.

But the people closed down 3 bridges in NYC.

The people are demonstrating all over the country.

Peacefully. With anger but no destruction.

Stickler · November 27, 2014

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/11/22/traditionalist-american-knights-kkk-kill-group-anonymous.html

Warning, article contains disgusting quote...

Yup, Anons have managed to dox Ferguson PD members who are also KKK members.

...If these officers really are KKK members, they are not fit to hold their jobs, as they are involved in a domestic terrorist organization.

I also don't understand how Wilson does not feel guilt for shooting Brown. If I were to shoot and kill someone on the job, I would always wonder if I could have found a different way to handle it, a way that did not end up with someone dead at the end of it.

I used to shoplift petty items, mainly because I figured if I was homeless, I might need to.

I grew out of that.

Brown never got a chance to grow out of it.

water · November 27, 2014

I also don't understand how Wilson does not feel guilt for shooting Brown.

Because the guilt would make him take responsibility for his action - killing an unarmed teenager - whether intentionally or not.

Cetkat · December 2, 2014

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but can we please not call him a teenager? He was 18, and an adult.

The thing is, there is no tape. We don't know what happened and how.

I had a college law class taught by an officer. He once talked about how the news talked about officers shooting a guy 20+ times. When asked why... it was because they ran out of bullets. That sounds horrible, but in that case the guy had a gun in his hand and pointed it at police. They are trained to shoot until the threat is gone, and the guy never dropped the gun. It's not shooting to wound or kill, it's to completely eliminate any threat. That's the training.

Maybe this guy was a racist and shot and killed him for no reason... or maybe he really did fear for his life. We can't know that. What we do know, is this was not an innocent teen who had done nothing wrong. It may had only been cigarettes, but when confronted by police after a theft, people can react in stupid ways. It isn't about what he stole. If the officer legitimately felt his life was in danger or was facing bodily injury, shooting the person was justified. Simply put - I can't say with any certainty that he didn't fear for his safety. And, yes, while the number of shots may sound excessive, people can do a lot on adrenaline. The training would have been to keep shooting until he was down.

The entire thing is sad, and any good officer hates shooting anyone and has a hard time living with that. Maybe the shooting was justified, maybe it wasn't - we just can't know.

The thing I hate is that we are turning a criminal adult into an innocent teenager, and using that to protest and destroy property and businesses - including black owned businesses. It's a mob mentality, the targets are anything in their path. And the protests in the malls on black friday? At any other time they would have been arrested. As it stands they were a fire hazard, and BF had nothing to do with the shooting event. But they weren't arrested. The malls were shut down instead. That's being too PC if you ask me.

I get that there is horrible discrimination against black people and those who associate with them in this country, and that is wrong. I've seen it and experienced railing against it in my mind, while simultaneously hating not being able to put discriminatory officers in their place. But why this criminal? There are others, clearly innocent, having done nothing wrong that have been shot and killed by police or idiots elsewhere. Why is the focus on Ferguson? Why are we turning this guy into an innocent victim when he committed a crime shortly before, and had every reason to be stopped? He didn't deserve to die, but I highly doubt the officer sought to do that when he first stopped him.

What about the black guy shot by the cop (who was fired and charged) when he reached into his truck for his ID when asked? What about Trayvon Martin here in FL? It doesn't matter if it was a cop, racism and killing out of it is the same. If we're going to fight and rally over racial injustice there shouldn't be any doubt about the innocence of the person. A big part of me thinks perhaps people in that city were just sick and tired of being discriminated against and used this as an opportunity to express that.

There are so many different "accounts", everyone has a different "truth". This isn't how you affect change. This whole thing is a mess.

water · December 2, 2014

Why are we turning this guy into an innocent victim when he committed a crime shortly before, and had every reason to be stopped?

What are you saying? It was fair he was stopped and fair that he was killed?

Who said he was innocent? He was unarmed however.

You have no idea what it is like for black people living in this country, and neither do I.

No Idea At All.

ananke · December 2, 2014

He didn't actually steal anything. He bought the cigarettes, or cigarellos. Actually there is a whole masterpiece on the situation here, which is pretty useful if you aren't fully up to date with everything. More to the point, he was over a 100 feet away when he was shot by Wilson. Given that he was completely unarmed, how on earth would he be any threat, let alone enough of a threat to warrant being shot? You should really read the above masterpiece, because to be honest it's going to give you a lot more information than I can. As water said, even if he had stolen something, how was it fair that he was shot and killed?

There is also this video which gives more light into what happened.

Destro · December 3, 2014

Maybe our LEOs could be trained to shoot for the legs...shit I don't know. I do know that rioting, no matter the level of frustration or injustice, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I makes no sense to burn down your own Fing city.

Stickler · December 3, 2014

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/california-police-body-cameras-cuts-violence-complaints-rialto

Body cams do seem to create positive change.

Mike Brown is confirmed to have done nothing worse than jaywalk.

Ummm...pistols aren't that accurate. Unless you want all LEO's issued with rifles and trained as snipers, you can't expect them to shoot to wound.

I'm honestly really surprised Wilson was able to hit Brown at that distance.

I wouldn't take that shot, even if i really, REALLY thought the person i was aiming at was going to run up and try to kill my ass.

This for purely practical reasons.

I would be entirely too worried about shooting some innocent bystander down range, because pistols are not that accurate. Therefore, I'd wait until the attacker was a lot closer, about 20 feet.

Wilson could have disengaged and called for backup instead of opening fire in the first place. Had he chose to do that, Mike Brown would probably be alive, and we would not be having this conversation.

Burning down your own city doesn't make sense. But working hard your whole life, yet living in fear that you or your kids can be gunned down with impunity...that doesn't necessarily make sense either.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Stickler

water · December 3, 2014

Wilson could have disengaged and called for backup instead of opening fire in the first place. Had he chose to do that, Mike Brown would probably be alive, and we would not be having this conversation.
Burning down your own city doesn't make sense. But working hard your whole life, yet living in fear that you or your kids can be gunned down with impunity...that doesn't necessarily make sense either.

Wilson freaked. Wonder what would have happened if it was a white face coming toward him?

In my town, a young black man was pushed to the ground and 8 cops pointed guns at his head. The young man was working peacefully. He was outside. He was doing nothing wrong.

Like Stickler says, this young man has worked his ass off to become someone, to rise above the violence in his life. He never makes excuses about the struggle because of his race and instead became a mentor to struggling black teens. But the cops and the town employees are white and doing all they can to discourage him.

This is a very small example of what is happening all over this country. Even when you follow the rules, you do what you are told, you become what they want you to become, the color of your skin does NOT change and neither does the automatic response - he's black so he must be stealing or shooting or doing something wrong.

Unstrung Harp · December 3, 2014

Also very much of note -- not that robbing a convenience store is a crime punishable by death, but despite what's reflected in the grand jury report the Ferguson police chief went on record in August as saying that Darren Wilson did not know Michael Brown was a robbery suspect when he stopped him, but that he engaged with Brown and his friend because they were talking down the middle of the street blocking traffic . I doubt seriously that Wilson was expressing overt racism when he shot Brown repeatedly as in "here is a black man; I am going to kill him because I hate black people." But that's not even mostly how racism works in many or most parts of the US in 2014, and the much more insidious form of it is the pervasive cultural attitude expressed in both obvious and subtle ways that people of color, and especially young men of color, are a threat. And this is an attitude that has been experienced by everyone from teenagers with questionable judgement, to college professors doing nothing whatsoever illegal to off-duty police officers. Likely Darren Wilson was afraid for his life, but a huge question is how warranted that was, given that he was the only one with a firearm, professional training, access to a police radio to call for backup, and by various accounts, an opponent who was seriously wounded and surrendering, whatever led to that point in the altercation.

Most relatively educated people would agree that the KKK and other overt signs of racism are abhorrent, but still lots and lots of us are still viewing things through a lens that makes us more likely to view a black teenager as a threat than a white teenager, and cops seem to be at least as guilty of this as the rest of us. This article and the short video talk briefly about this but offers some chilling data, including reference to an earlier experiment in which participants were asked to identity who the armed person was after viewing photos of two men fighting, one of whom had a knife. In the case of two white men fighting, participants tended to correctly recall the armed person in the photo; in the case of a white man fighting a black man, both black and white participants tended to incorrectly recall that the black man was the one with the knife. If we tend to view black men as the bigger threat in the controlled environment of an experiment, the implications of this on police engagement with black citizens in a tense situation are frightening, and tend to be borne out by the limited statistics on police killings in the line of duty that are available.

Regarding Brown himself and the question of his character (and it always is much easier to rationalize shooting someone whom you later portray as a thug -- this was done to Trayvon Martin too) and whether this case should be a tipping point for the larger issue of police profiling and brutality, I think there's so many things we could talk about. We could talk about how many times people of color have to be harassed or see loved ones harassed for doing nothing for them to internalize the message that it doesn't even really matter how law abiding they are or how respectful they are to the police, they will always be viewed and treated the same way by many of the people who are sworn to protect them. Personally, I can easily imagine how being raised in a context of awareness that law enforcement sees you as a potential threat even when you are doing nothing can promote a defiant attitude among many that itself would tend to promote dangerous interactions between police officers and black citizens. You could also talk about the fact that people aren't blank slates who forget everything that happened before. So while people are protesting at this moment they are not just upset about Michael Brown, they *are* upset about the disproportionate number of people of color who are killed by police officers, they are upset about Trayvon Martin, whose murderer got off because walking while black in the wrong place is considered a justifiable threat to many people, and they are upset that the Ferguson police department has a protracted and recent history of racism and harassment of people of color. Really, are people supposed to continue indefinitely to quietly put up with unjust situations that aren't changing? That's a lot to ask I think.

And yes, some police victims more easily lend themselves to narratives of police abuse (you've probably got a better shot at pervasive outrage if you're small in stature and college-educated), but it's still reasonable for people to be really stinking mad when an unarmed teenager (and yes 18 makes him legally culpable for the crime he was not actually suspected of by the officer when he was stopped, but it still makes him tragically young) is gunned down by a trained police officer in front of various witnesses who contradict his story that Brown was an ongoing threat when he killed him. I am both a pragmatist and the biggest peacenik going, but if I were living in a world where I thought my son, who could easily grown up to be 6'4 like Michael Brown, wasn't safe even or especially around the police who were sworn to protect him, I don't know that I could always be expected to control my rage and act productively. But nonetheless, though there have been looters and rioters, there have also been many multiracial peaceful protests and people of color who have actively protected businesses from looters, but those don't make for splashy headlines or easy us versus them representations. Ultimately no, I don't think that looting and rioting is particularly productive, but I can understand the impulse, and most importantly, dismissing the people who act out in this way as a bunch of thugs does nothing to address the legitimate anger about racial inequity that led to such acts.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Unstrung Harp

Sync · December 3, 2014

I understand why people say things like "riots don't solve anything." The thing is, you only have to dig through a few history textbooks to find counterexample after counterexample. The 1992 Rodney King riots lead to sweeping changes in the LAPD. The 1969 Stonewall riots were a massive turning point in the gay rights movement. They essentially created the gay rights movement.

Riots are a last resort when the rest of the world just won't listen. CNN interviewed a rioter that night, and while I don't remember his exact words, he expressed that sentiment. That this has got to stop. Other methods haven't worked. The police won't listen, the world won't listen, another black person has been murdered and this has got to stop.

And it's already starting to work. Body cameras for police are part of the national conversation. People burning down their communities because of police brutality makes the police brutality an emergency for those in power rather than just those who are oppressed.

I think it's easy for those of us with white skin to sit back and judge them for being violent. We have no idea what they've been through. We have no idea what they're trying to do. We don't have to know, because we're white.

And I agree with them. This has got to stop.

Unstrung Harp · December 3, 2014

I understand why people say things like "riots don't solve anything." The thing is, you only have to dig through a few history textbooks to find counterexample after counterexample. The 1992 Rodney King riots lead to sweeping changes in the LAPD. The 1969 Stonewall riots were a massive turning point in the gay rights movement. They essentially created the gay rights movement.

Riots are a last resort when the rest of the world just won't listen. CNN interviewed a rioter that night, and while I don't remember his exact words, he expressed that sentiment. That this has got to stop. Other methods haven't worked. The police won't listen, the world won't listen, another black person has been murdered and this has got to stop.

And it's already starting to work. Body cameras for police are part of the national conversation. People burning down their communities because of police brutality makes the police brutality an emergency for those in power rather than just those who are oppressed.

Personally I was trying to make your point that riots and other unrest are a last resort when the rest of the world just won't listen. But thank you for reminding me of these other really good points. It's largely about the framing, but you're right unrest that goes beyond the civil has always had a role in getting stuff done at various points in history. People have cause to be enraged by the things that have happened and continue to happen all over the country. And more people should be enraged than just those who are directly effected. Whether or not I think a particular tactic is strategically more or less problematic, I can't really fault anyone for losing patience and lashing out out of frustration and fear, and for wondering weather yet another protest is going to do any good.

melissaw72 · December 4, 2014

I understand why people say things like "riots don't solve anything." The thing is, you only have to dig through a few history textbooks to find counterexample after counterexample. The 1992 Rodney King riots lead to sweeping changes in the LAPD. The 1969 Stonewall riots were a massive turning point in the gay rights movement. They essentially created the gay rights movement.

Riots are a last resort when the rest of the world just won't listen. CNN interviewed a rioter that night, and while I don't remember his exact words, he expressed that sentiment. That this has got to stop. Other methods haven't worked. The police won't listen, the world won't listen, another black person has been murdered and this has got to stop.

And it's already starting to work. Body cameras for police are part of the national conversation. People burning down their communities because of police brutality makes the police brutality an emergency for those in power rather than just those who are oppressed.

I think it's easy for those of us with white skin to sit back and judge them for being violent. We have no idea what they've been through. We have no idea what they're trying to do. We don't have to know, because we're white.

And I agree with them. This has got to stop.

These are really great points. People are listening to the chaos after the shooting.

confused · December 4, 2014

I wrote a post and my computer lost it.

What I wanted to say was that with the latest chokehold death of Eric Garner grand jury decision it doesn't seem like people are listening or that video is the answer.

My Twitter feed is going crazy. I cringe when I read the word "thug". Tamir Rice was a 12 year old boy and I saw someone call him a jr thug

I like this excerpt from a Chris Rock interview comparing racism to domestic violence

http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/12/1/7313467/chris-rock-interview

I am not sure why Charles "I'm not a role model" Barkley is acting like a spokesperson.

There are so many great posts here, thanks.

As far as fear, my example would be locking the car doors driving in a minority neighborhood or crossing the street when a black man is walking towards me. It isn't unimaginable that a police officer could have similar fears, subconsciously which could lead to excessive, aggressive even lethal force.

Edited December 4, 2014 by confused

water · December 4, 2014

What I wanted to say was that with the latest chokehold death of Eric Garner grand jury decision it doesn't seem like people are listening or that video is the answer.

The grand juries certainly are not listening, not on Staten Island.

What is really sad, Eric Garner's parents were not surprised by the non verdict.

They are protesting in NYC while the cameras are lighting the Christmas Tree at Rockefeller Center. Perfect harmony.

Stickler · December 4, 2014

Eric Garner's death was ruled a homicide, even.

* looks outraged and disgusted *

Who do they put on grand juries, anyway?

water · December 4, 2014

Eric Garner's death was ruled a homicide, even.
* looks outraged and disgusted *
Who do they put on grand juries, anyway?

cops?

water · December 4, 2014

This morning's front page of the NY Daily News. Not what I would call the most fair or liberal newspaper but.....this incident crosses all boundaries.

this is the link to the edition that came out when Eric died. Very upsetting read.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/staten-island-man-dies-puts-choke-hold-article-1.1871486

SoaringRaven · December 5, 2014

I understand why people say things like "riots don't solve anything." The thing is, you only have to dig through a few history textbooks to find counterexample after counterexample. The 1992 Rodney King riots lead to sweeping changes in the LAPD. The 1969 Stonewall riots were a massive turning point in the gay rights movement. They essentially created the gay rights movement.

Riots are a last resort when the rest of the world just won't listen. CNN interviewed a rioter that night, and while I don't remember his exact words, he expressed that sentiment. That this has got to stop. Other methods haven't worked. The police won't listen, the world won't listen, another black person has been murdered and this has got to stop.

And it's already starting to work. Body cameras for police are part of the national conversation. People burning down their communities because of police brutality makes the police brutality an emergency for those in power rather than just those who are oppressed.

I think it's easy for those of us with white skin to sit back and judge them for being violent. We have no idea what they've been through. We have no idea what they're trying to do. We don't have to know, because we're white.

And I agree with them. This has got to stop.

All wonderful points.I hope that these riots and protests cause something to change and cause those in power to listen.

melissaw72 · December 5, 2014

This morning's front page of the NY Daily News. Not what I would call the most fair or liberal newspaper but.....this incident crosses all boundaries.

this is the link to the edition that came out when Eric died. Very upsetting read.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/staten-island-man-dies-puts-choke-hold-article-1.1871486

I've been following this on the news, and it really bothers me. I can't really put it into words what I am thinking other than WTF were the cops thinking at the time, but it really bothers me.

Unstrung Harp · December 5, 2014

From Salon, 10 Ways the System is Rigged to Protect Cops Who Kill

Not surprisingly, it's pretty rare that a cop is indicted, even though there's such a low burden of proof needed for an indictment as opposed to a trial. "The overall pattern here confirms that cops largely evade accountablity for abusive actions."

Can't remember the article to cite, but I read a statement to the effect that in areas of high population density, blacks are most frequently subject to violent action from police, but in areas of lower population density it's people with mental illness. I guess if you're black and mentally ill you're probably completely fucked.

confused · December 5, 2014

From Salon, 10 Ways the System is Rigged to Protect Cops Who Kill

Not surprisingly, it's pretty rare that a cop is indicted, even though there's such a low burden of proof needed for an indictment as opposed to a trial. "The overall pattern here confirms that cops largely evade accountablity for abusive actions."
Can't remember the article to cite, but I read a statement to the effect that in areas of high population density, blacks are most frequently subject to violent action from police, but in areas of lower population density it's people with mental illness. I guess if you're black and mentally ill you're probably completely fucked.

yup

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2856760/Autopsy-Bullet-Milwaukee-cop-hit-mans-back.html

SoaringRaven · December 6, 2014

The only good thing I can say about this whole situation is that people are finally waking up and getting pissed about racism and police brutality. There are so many cities that are being shut down night after night by protests. Hopefully something will change. Hopefully someone will listen to everything that's going on.

Cetkat · December 6, 2014

Why are we turning this guy into an innocent victim when he committed a crime shortly before, and had every reason to be stopped?

What are you saying? It was fair he was stopped and fair that he was killed?

Who said he was innocent? He was unarmed however.

You have no idea what it is like for black people living in this country, and neither do I.

No Idea At All.

I'm saying that we are making this guy a martyr, like he did nothing wrong at all. It was fair he was stopped, he committed a crime and apparently refused to not walk in the middle of the street after. The events after are conflicted. It's not good he was killed, but we have no idea how he reacted to being called on the theft. I'm not saying I know what it's like to be black in this country, I just know how they and those that choose to be around them are discriminated against by cops. I chose to have a best friend that was black, and many other neighborhood friends. I would never say I know what that is like to live in this world with that skin color, but I have seen how mistreated and corrupt society can be on a mild scale, just by being their friend.

I also hate the opposite, where any black death is automatically considered a hate crime.

He didn't actually steal anything. He bought the cigarettes, or cigarellos.

Ananke says he was innocent. As do many others. That's the problem I'm talking about.

Look at this video:

And then start this one at 0:32... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtrl6_qeyW0#t=35

Of course he stole cigarettes, at least 4 packs.

Maybe our LEOs could be trained to shoot for the legs...shit I don't know. I do know that rioting, no matter the level of frustration or injustice, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I makes no sense to burn down your own Fing city.

It would be nice, but it's hard to hit a leg. That's why you aim for center mass. Shooting a target isn't easy. The whole point is that you don't draw the gun unless you intend to shoot to kill - there is no shoot to wound, ever. It sounds great in theory, but just wounding someone isn't practical. It's hard enough just to hit a moving target. I agree with you on the rioting though.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/california-police-body-cameras-cuts-violence-complaints-rialto
Body cams do seem to create positive change.
Mike Brown is confirmed to have done nothing worse than jaywalk.
Ummm...pistols aren't that accurate. Unless you want all LEO's issued with rifles and trained as snipers, you can't expect them to shoot to wound.
I'm honestly really surprised Wilson was able to hit Brown at that distance.
I wouldn't take that shot, even if i really, REALLY thought the person i was aiming at was going to run up and try to kill my ass.
This for purely practical reasons.
I would be entirely too worried about shooting some innocent bystander down range, because pistols are not that accurate. Therefore, I'd wait until the attacker was a lot closer, about 20 feet.
Wilson could have disengaged and called for backup instead of opening fire in the first place. Had he chose to do that, Mike Brown would probably be alive, and we would not be having this conversation.
Burning down your own city doesn't make sense. But working hard your whole life, yet living in fear that you or your kids can be gunned down with impunity...that doesn't necessarily make sense either.

I greatly agree with cams. I think it will do both sides good because you'll know exactly what happened. Brown robbed a store - it's very clear in the surveillance videos I posted above (this is why I don't feel I can trust any media on this incidence). I don't know if there was a distance. The last pro-brown facebook thing stated he was shot in the back before turning to hold up his hands... while a coroner report said all shots were to the front. This situation is too messed up to know what happened with any certainty.

If it really was that far away, why didn't Wilson give chase and call for backup before shooting? The increased distance just doesn't make sense. Unless Wilson was a marksman, how could he only hit Brown at that distance and not anything else? It doesn't add up. It sounds like you know much more about shooting that than I do.

Wilson could have disengaged and called for backup instead of opening fire in the first place. Had he chose to do that, Mike Brown would probably be alive, and we would not be having this conversation.
Burning down your own city doesn't make sense. But working hard your whole life, yet living in fear that you or your kids can be gunned down with impunity...that doesn't necessarily make sense either.

Wilson freaked. Wonder what would have happened if it was a white face coming toward him?

In my town, a young black man was pushed to the ground and 8 cops pointed guns at his head. The young man was working peacefully. He was outside. He was doing nothing wrong.

Like Stickler says, this young man has worked his ass off to become someone, to rise above the violence in his life. He never makes excuses about the struggle because of his race and instead became a mentor to struggling black teens. But the cops and the town employees are white and doing all they can to discourage him.

This is a very small example of what is happening all over this country. Even when you follow the rules, you do what you are told, you become what they want you to become, the color of your skin does NOT change and neither does the automatic response - he's black so he must be stealing or shooting or doing something wrong.

I'm very sorry that happened. Some police are just racist and persecute for no reason. I added on a similar post on Facebook how a friend was harassed by police just for being in the wrong neighborhood. The ass claimed the dog smelled drugs and even broke stuff in her car in the search. Of course nothing was found. She was just driving a black friend home. It could have easily been me if I had been old enough to have a licence. In the end, the asshole cop gave a warning to be careful who she let in her car. This black girl (a close friend) was the most innocent person I've ever known - to the point of being taken advantage of. There was never any drugs. It had everything to do with a honda being in a black neighborhood.

..And in terms of being unarmed.. just watch this:

He beat her into unconsciousness. Can anyone really say shooting him would have been the wrong thing to do? Yet, he was completely unarmed.

We have the benefit of a camera here. With the Ferguson situation, we don't. If this was being used to put cameras in all police cars, I'd support it... instead people are destroying property and creating mobs in streets. Unlike women's rights, black rights passed. We even have a black president. If there was ever a time to build laws against black discrimination, it's now... but instead, people are acting like destruction is the only course.

Nothing is going to come of this shit, because nobody is at the front demanding specific changes.

Stickler · December 6, 2014

Did he deserve to die for jaywalking and stealing a few cruddy cigars?

I don't think so...

But the thing is, it's not just Brown.

http://abc13.com/archive/6579394/

He's one of many, many, MANY.

If you look at this in isolation, it's one very excessive use of force.

The outrage is not because of JUST this incident.

Or JUST Eric Garner.

They are the latest episodes of the whirl-and-hurl.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/24/1324132/-How-Often-are-Unarmed-Black-Men-Shot-Down-By-Police

Edited December 6, 2014 by Stickler

water · December 6, 2014

Nothing is going to come of this shit, because nobody is at the front demanding specific changes.

Not True At All.

Mayor De Blasio of NYC made an incredible speech after the peaceful riots in NYC.

He said exactly what needed to be said. The cops overreact, they are untrained, they need to show less force, they need superiors coming to ongoing situations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-striving-to-back-police-and-protesters-in-eric-garner-case.html?_r=0

He supports the cops he supports the protestors he supports ALL of his town no matter what color, height, gender, weight or job.

If you can find a audio of the speech he made .....I was cheering in my kitchen.

THIS is what needed to be said in Ferguson. However, NYC is a completely different town. Ferguson erupted in mass anger. NYC erupted with controlled anger.

Nonetheless, the cops in NYC have got to change. And there is someone at the top, someone who supports the police, who is actually making a change.

Obviously it will take time, but this is NOT the middle east. We can do something. The police are NOT an army, they are not a jury and they are not the judge.

Your video of the man beating the woman cop? What is the point of showing us that? WHAT??????????

It has NOTHING to do with Eric Garner, with Michael Brown, with the over use of force by the police in this country. NOTHING to do with it at all.

crtclms · December 6, 2014

Brown paid for the cigars. This has been debunked over and over. Cetkat, the police officer was not aware of any other alleged (ALLEGED) crime when he interacted with Michael Brown. I suspect you already know this. And the death penalty is not appropriate for jay walking, or even shop lifting.

And HOW was Brown supposed to beat someone when he was at least 10 yards (possibly much more) away? Even if you *do* think that he didn't need a weapon, because you found a video. The man in that video was at a bit closer range, was he not?

You are kind of shocking me with your naivete, to be honest.

People are demanding specific change. I have no idea what you are talking about. How about body cameras, just to list one of many? How is that not specific?

Why do you feel the need to defend this cop? He was let off easy, why do you feel the need to support this lucky man? It is so easy to get an indictment. We were taught in law school that you can "indict a ham sandwich," and it's true. They went out of their way to make sure he would never even go to trial. He shot an unarmed man 6 times and doesn't even have to go to trial.

And I second (or third) that Brown and Garner (and Rice, why did they kill Tamir Rice, please?) are the tip of the iceberg. Do you really think that black people are treated the same by police as white people? I would hope not.

confused · December 6, 2014

Some specific demands for change

http://media.wix.com/ugd/9c5255_d488c209115842e7ab4bfa9a5e6789f3.pdf

Edited December 6, 2014 by confused

water · December 7, 2014

Nothing is going to come of this shit, because nobody is at the front demanding specific changes.

Not True At All.

Mayor De Blasio of NYC made an incredible speech after the peaceful riots in NYC.

He said exactly what needed to be said. The cops overreact, they are untrained, they need to show less force, they need superiors coming to ongoing situations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-striving-to-back-police-and-protesters-in-eric-garner-case.html?_r=0

He supports the cops he supports the protestors he supports ALL of his town no matter what color, height, gender, weight or job.

If you can find a audio of the speech he made .....I was cheering in my kitchen.

THIS is what needed to be said in Ferguson. However, NYC is a completely different town. Ferguson erupted in mass anger. NYC erupted with controlled anger.

Nonetheless, the cops in NYC have got to change. And there is someone at the top, someone who supports the police, who is actually making a change.

Obviously it will take time, but this is NOT the middle east. We can do something. The police are NOT an army, they are not a jury and they are not the judge.

Your video of the man beating the woman cop? What is the point of showing us that? WHAT??????????

It has NOTHING to do with Eric Garner, with Michael Brown, with the over use of force by the police in this country. NOTHING to do with it at all.

Cetkat,

I am sorry I came across so harsh.

This is very personal for me so I am a bit intolerant.

I know you are doing your very best to understand and to be fair.

Cetkat · December 14, 2014

Why are we turning this guy into an innocent victim when he committed a crime shortly before, and had every reason to be stopped?

What are you saying? It was fair he was stopped and fair that he was killed?

Did he deserve to die for jaywalking and stealing a few cruddy cigars?
I don't think so...

Absolutely not. It's horrible that he died. I'm saying that him being stopped, questioned, and (possibly) arrested would have been fair. I think Brown was resistant and angry, and the situation got out of hand.

But the thing is, it's not just Brown.
He's one of many, many, MANY.
If you look at this in isolation, it's one very excessive use of force.
The outrage is not because of JUST this incident.
Or JUST Eric Garner.

I think it being an excessive use of force is debatable in this instance, and without any video, we just can't know. I get that this has turned into more than just Brown. He was the catalyst though, and he's still being held up as the primary example. I'm glad that a movement to get racist and trigger happy cops in check is going on - I just dislike the methods being used, and I feel that a poor case was used to ignite something that has been boiling under the surface for awhile. Turning Brown into an innocent martyr grates on me. That aside, I do support the message behind the movement.

Nothing is going to come of this shit, because nobody is at the front demanding specific changes.

Not True At All.

Mayor De Blasio of NYC made an incredible speech after the peaceful riots in NYC.

He said exactly what needed to be said. The cops overreact, they are untrained, they need to show less force, they need superiors coming to ongoing situations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-striving-to-back-police-and-protesters-in-eric-garner-case.html?_r=0

He supports the cops he supports the protestors he supports ALL of his town no matter what color, height, gender, weight or job.

If you can find a audio of the speech he made .....I was cheering in my kitchen.

THIS is what needed to be said in Ferguson. However, NYC is a completely different town. Ferguson erupted in mass anger. NYC erupted with controlled anger.

Nonetheless, the cops in NYC have got to change. And there is someone at the top, someone who supports the police, who is actually making a change.

Obviously it will take time, but this is NOT the middle east. We can do something. The police are NOT an army, they are not a jury and they are not the judge.

I hadn't heard of that. I think that's exactly the attitude and changes that need to be made. I'm glad that stance is being taken. Whether that ideology will spread outside of NYC.... I have my doubts. But I've become rather jaded when it comes to protests being able to affect real change. I've been hopeful (and even involved - I've marched in D.C.) in the past, only to end up disappointed. I don't feel the police are really what's in the way of change... it's politicians and policy makers. Those people on the state and city level have to be on-board and willing to enact consequences if positive changes aren't followed. In order to be widespread though, that order of change has to come from a national level - and then be backed by each state. That's a lot of political crap to get through though. That's what I'm pessimistic about.

After I wrote the part about specific changes, I did see a petition to require body cams however (which I signed). So it does look like that particular point has changed.

I think you're spot on about the difference between Ferguson and elsewhere. Police handed Ferguson poorly, absolutely. But at the same time - it was a rioting mob. I don't think that action should ever be condoned. I think the fact that that mob was able to spark a national movement sets a horrible precedent.

Your video of the man beating the woman cop? What is the point of showing us that? WHAT??????????
It has NOTHING to do with Eric Garner, with Michael Brown, with the over use of force by the police in this country. NOTHING to do with it at all.

It was in response to this..

Who said he was innocent? He was unarmed however.

Sorry, I should have made that clearer. I get that there's a distance difference... it's just that there's a common argument that anyone unarmed should never be shot. The video was meant to show how dangerous someone can be even if they're unarmed. I feel that if there's a legitimate threat from an unarmed person, the officer should be able to shoot them in order to protect themselves.

Brown paid for the cigars. This has been debunked over and over. Cetkat, the police officer was not aware of any other alleged (ALLEGED) crime when he interacted with Michael Brown. I suspect you already know this. And the death penalty is not appropriate for jay walking, or even shop lifting.

And HOW was Brown supposed to beat someone when he was at least 10 yards (possibly much more) away? Even if you *do* think that he didn't need a weapon, because you found a video. The man in that video was at a bit closer range, was he not?

You are kind of shocking me with your naivete, to be honest.

People are demanding specific change. I have no idea what you are talking about. How about body cameras, just to list one of many? How is that not specific?

Why do you feel the need to defend this cop? He was let off easy, why do you feel the need to support this lucky man? It is so easy to get an indictment. We were taught in law school that you can "indict a ham sandwich," and it's true. They went out of their way to make sure he would never even go to trial. He shot an unarmed man 6 times and doesn't even have to go to trial.

And I second (or third) that Brown and Garner (and Rice, why did they kill Tamir Rice, please?) are the tip of the iceberg. Do you really think that black people are treated the same by police as white people? I would hope not.

I haven't seen the debunking, but after seeing the video, and having sold cigs/cigars for a number of years... him having paid for them just doesn't make sense. You can see him reaching over the counter, coming back with multiple packs, dropping some on the ground, picking them up, walking away, and then the clerk trying to stop him. In order for him to have paid for them, he would have had to have given the clerk the exact amount for what was seemingly randomly dropped. That just doesn't add up.

What I have heard is that is wasn't the store that called 911, but a customer. That makes compete sense. It wasn't an armed robbery and money wasn't stolen. It's not uncommon to just let it go when a small amount of product is stolen, because the effort just isn't worth it when it's likely that nothing will come from the report.

I know that when Brown was stopped for jaywalking, the officer didn't know about the theft. I've heard conflicting reports about him letting them go, only to come back when he heard a dispatch about it over the radio. I don't know if that's true.

I'm not saying anyone should be shot for theft, or even any crime (including murder). A death penalty should fall to the courts, not police. I'm saying it's plausible that Brown, knowing he had just committed a crime and wanting to get away, reacted to the stop in such a way that resulted in getting shot rather than let go or arrested.

As to the distance, if there was already a physical altercation where Brown had tried to grab the officer's gun, and Brown ran away, only to stop and start coming back - it's not out of the realm of possibility that the intent wasn't to surrender, but to harm the officer. Without a video, we just can't know. I'm not naive to the fact that some cops are just bad, or racist, or both. Black people are not treated the same as white (whether through action or profiling). I know that, and I believe I mentioned that before.

I'm glad that specific changes are being sought after. I was not aware of it at the time I wrote that post. I stand corrected.

As to why I feel the need to defend the cop... It's not my goal to defend him in particular. It's entirely possible he never should have fired his weapon, and he did so out of malice. I just don't like that it is assumed he did something wrong without, what I feel, is clear evidence. Just as some cops have a bias against black people, people tend to have a bias against cops. As I'm friends with one (a good one) - I feel it's only right to provide an alternative perspective.

Cetkat,

I am sorry I came across so harsh.
This is very personal for me so I am a bit intolerant.
I know you are doing your very best to understand and to be fair.

It's ok. I didn't feel you were at all out of line. I know you have a better understanding about what those of color face on a daily basis. It is my goal to understand and be fair to all sides involved. As much as I question the Brown incident, I know there are many others where there is no question that innocent individuals where harmed or killed simply because of the color of their skin. I do support that changing. I appreciate your message.

crtclms · December 17, 2014

The store owner a) never called the police, and b) disputes that he stole them. There was definitely some shoving going on, but dropping things on the floor doesn't mean they weren't paid for.

Oh, and when I say the store owner did not call the police, that also kind of counters the "he already was wanted for a crime" argument.

confused · December 17, 2014

It has come out that a witness to the grand jury was unreliable

http://thesmokinggun.com/documents/unmasking-Ferguson-witness-40-496236

Cetkat · December 17, 2014

The store owner a) never called the police, and b) disputes that he stole them. There was definitely some shoving going on, but dropping things on the floor doesn't mean they weren't paid for.
Oh, and when I say the store owner did not call the police, that also kind of counters the "he already was wanted for a crime" argument.

It's true that dropping things on the floor doesn't necessarily equate to them not being paid for (though I'm very suspicious for reasons previously given). However, the video doesn't have audio. The customer that called police would have had a lot more insight into what went down & I haven't seen anything disputing that that call was made. Obviously something looked wrong enough that a good Samaritan decided to get involved. That would be the "wanted for a crime" argument - although it's debatable whether the officer had any idea about the call.

As for the owner... honestly, without knowing the specific timeline between the public opinion/rioting and his statement that nothing was stolen, if I came down to it, and that store was my livelihood; I'd try to get on the mob's good side by lying about the theft (if it happened). $20 isn't worth having your store burned down. Obviously I can't say that's what happened... but it does make sense as a possibility.

Ultimately, I see the potential theft as a moot point anyway. Known or not, Brown was pulled over for walking down the middle of the road. If he got aggressive with the cop like he did with the store clerk... I can see how the situation could have ended in tragedy.

It has come out that a witness to the grand jury was unreliable
http://thesmokinggun.com/documents/unmasking-Ferguson-witness-40-496236

See, this is why I find this whole situation infuriating. There are so many lies and half-truths on both sides, that it seems impossible to figure out the truth of the matter with any real certainty. That's why I'd rather boil it down to:

a) We really can't know what happened, so blaming either Brown or the cop in entirety doesn't make any sense to me.

b) The rioting and this laying down shit isn't something to support -- the concept behind the movement, yes, absolutely -- but this isn't civil disobedience; it's criminal. You can't block fire exits and you certainly can't lay down across major freeways and on working train tracks & expect that to be ok. Making a point is one thing - and it's a point that needs to be made ---- but risking the safety of others to do that. I can't support that, and it really pisses me off.

Edit: Typo

Edited December 17, 2014 by Cetkat

Stickler · December 17, 2014

you certainly can't lay down across major freeways and on working train tracks & expect that to be ok

You also can't keep leaving injustice go on and expect people to just keep shutting up and taking it forever. Eventually they get fed up.

The conventional, lawful methods of seeking redress for grievances, which I think we'd all prefer, are not working.

They have not been working for a long time.

You seem to think there have not been people working on that...that's what a lot of lobbying and community organizations do! If it was working, we wouldn't have got here.

Civil disobedience, putting oneself in danger, getting arrested...breaking the law...this isn't most people's idea of fun.

Blocking roads can be charged as a felony, if officialdom wants to. And yes, you can possibly get run over. I remember reading about an anti war protestor who lost his legs to a munitions train during the Vietnam war.

The train was ordered forward and several protestors had their limbs scissored right off

Most of us would rather just call our congress critters or local officials and have them fix this shit.

They are not fixing this shit.

Nobody is. The system is not addressing the systemic injustice.

The choice is to accept it...or create disruption in the system.

...Civil disobedience generally results in criminal charges

It isn't safe for the people engaging in it.

You can dislike it, but it freed a whole lot of Indians from the British. It also served as the primary tactic of the civil rights movement in the 60's. So it has worked before.

It's a legitimate tactic.

Pardon me for being curt, I feel like hammered batshit.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Stickler

Cetkat · December 17, 2014

My issue doesn't actually have to do with what happens with the protesters. They chose that to send a message.

I worry about the fire in the mall that burns people to death because pathways are blocked; the 30 car pileup when one car sees someone laying across a freeway going over 75 mph and stops suddenly without warning or crashes into other cars in an attempt to get out of the way; the train conductor that isn't able to stop the train and feels the guilt for the rest of their life over killing someone (along with the possibility that they tried to stop so suddenly that the train derails and kills/injures passengers). That's the problem with it.

confused · December 17, 2014

But, if the grand jury indicted we would have a trial and hear the evidence. They decided a trial was unnecessary when there are so many unanswered questions.

Sync · December 17, 2014

b) The rioting and this laying down shit isn't something to support -- the concept behind the movement, yes, absolutely -- but this isn't civil disobedience; it's criminal. You can't block fire exits and you certainly can't lay down across major freeways and on working train tracks & expect that to be ok. Making a point is one thing - and it's a point that needs to be made ---- but risking the safety of others to do that. I can't support that, and it really pisses me off.

Civil disobedience is, by definition, criminal. If you're not breaking any laws, you're not participating in civil disobedience.

What would you suggest they do? Intermittently shutting down highways and causing property damage is actually very mild escalation, in the grand scheme of things.

Their safety is at far more risk from the status quo than anyone's safety is at risk from being stuck in an unreal traffic jam when protesters block the freeway. They aren't protesting excessive speed bumps or poor television programming, they're protesting widespread government-sanctioned murder of people in their community.

confused · December 17, 2014

There really are undercover police in the crowd, a few have pulled weapons when detected. Some say they instigate some of the non peaceful acts and there are over zealous people. I don't think the fires/looting were planned. Protests have been more peaceful outside of Ferguson. But, yes, shutting things down are part of the protest.

Edited December 17, 2014 by confused

Cetkat · December 19, 2014

b) The rioting and this laying down shit isn't something to support -- the concept behind the movement, yes, absolutely -- but this isn't civil disobedience; it's criminal. You can't block fire exits and you certainly can't lay down across major freeways and on working train tracks & expect that to be ok. Making a point is one thing - and it's a point that needs to be made ---- but risking the safety of others to do that. I can't support that, and it really pisses me off.

Civil disobedience is, by definition, criminal. If you're not breaking any laws, you're not participating in civil disobedience.

What would you suggest they do? Intermittently shutting down highways and causing property damage is actually very mild escalation, in the grand scheme of things.

Their safety is at far more risk from the status quo than anyone's safety is at risk from being stuck in an unreal traffic jam when protesters block the freeway. They aren't protesting excessive speed bumps or poor television programming, they're protesting widespread government-sanctioned murder of people in their community.

See, I don't think it has to be, or usually is. The 99% movement didn't break any laws, and as far as I know, the actions under MJK didn't put outsiders at risk of harm either. Protest is covered under freedom of speech so long as it doesn't endanger others.

I'm not talking about a traffic jam. I'm talking about that first car that is surprised, and how that can turn into a massive 50+ car pileup on a freeway with people being burned alive. (That was a recent occurrence here in FL - it was just due to fog causing a single crash instead... and it escalated quickly.)

Civil disobedience can be safe and not risk the lives of others. If you're risking lives, then it is criminal, and that person shouldn't be above the law just because they are an activist.

And, frankly, there is never any sane reason to lay across active train tracks.

Sync · December 19, 2014

b) The rioting and this laying down shit isn't something to support -- the concept behind the movement, yes, absolutely -- but this isn't civil disobedience; it's criminal. You can't block fire exits and you certainly can't lay down across major freeways and on working train tracks & expect that to be ok. Making a point is one thing - and it's a point that needs to be made ---- but risking the safety of others to do that. I can't support that, and it really pisses me off.

Civil disobedience is, by definition, criminal. If you're not breaking any laws, you're not participating in civil disobedience.

What would you suggest they do? Intermittently shutting down highways and causing property damage is actually very mild escalation, in the grand scheme of things.

Their safety is at far more risk from the status quo than anyone's safety is at risk from being stuck in an unreal traffic jam when protesters block the freeway. They aren't protesting excessive speed bumps or poor television programming, they're protesting widespread government-sanctioned murder of people in their community.

See, I don't think it has to be, or usually is. The 99% movement didn't break any laws, and as far as I know, the actions under MJK didn't put outsiders at risk of harm either. Protest is covered under freedom of speech so long as it doesn't endanger others.
I'm not talking about a traffic jam. I'm talking about that first car that is surprised, and how that can turn into a massive 50+ car pileup on a freeway with people being burned alive. (That was a recent occurrence here in FL - it was just due to fog causing a single crash instead... and it escalated quickly.)
Civil disobedience can be safe and not risk the lives of others. If you're risking lives, then it is criminal, and that person shouldn't be above the law just because they are an activist.
And, frankly, there is never any sane reason to lay across active train tracks.

civil disobedience (noun) - the refusal to obey certain laws or governmental demands for the purpose of influencing legislation or government policy, characterized by the employment of such nonviolent techniques as boycotting, picketing, and nonpayment of taxes.

Like I said, by definition.

Occupy Wall Street broke lots of laws. Unlawful assembly, obstructing roadways, illegal camping.

Some of MLK's most famous efforts involved coordinated marches that obstructed major roadways.

I will agree that lying across train tracks sounds like an... odd thing to do, to say the least. Do you have a link to a description of where that happened? It's hard to talk about this stuff without context.

Cetkat · December 19, 2014

civil disobedience (noun) - the refusal to obey certain laws or governmental demands for the purpose of influencing legislation or government policy, characterized by the employment of such nonviolent techniques as boycotting, picketing, and nonpayment of taxes.

Like I said, by definition.

Occupy Wall Street broke lots of laws. Unlawful assembly, obstructing roadways, illegal camping.

Some of MLK's most famous efforts involved coordinated marches that obstructed major roadways.

I will agree that lying across train tracks sounds like an... odd thing to do, to say the least. Do you have a link to a description of where that happened? It's hard to talk about this stuff without context.

I'll defer to your definition. I'm more talking about things that would carry a criminal penalty under any other circumstances due to the threat of harm to another.

Roadways and major highways are different things.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/08/1350408/-Protesters-In-Berkeley-Have-Literally-Stopped-A-Train-In-Its-Tracks

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/12/09/berkeley-protests-ferguson-eric-garner-train-tracks_n_6293758.html

http://wpri.com/2014/11/25/ri-protesters-force-shutdown-of-i-95/

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/2014/12/08/protesters-slow-traffic-on-i-95-nb-in-jacksonville/20088207/

Those are some railways links and an I-95 link. I tried to find the story/video of the person in FL laying in the middle of the Amtrack train track who stopped the train (barely)... but I couldn't pull it up online. I was a major news item last week here in FL though, and it had video of the train barely managing to stop. She was laying in the middle of the track, and the train was 3-4 feet away.

Stickler · December 19, 2014

Protest can break laws.

As soon as the cops decide you are breaking the law, you are breaking the law! That's how it works.

You will be smacked around and/or arrested for disrupting the peace or obstructing traffic ( even if you got a permit) or assaulting the officer's fist with your face or resisting arrest ( which...arrested for resisting arrest?!?! )

But, yeah, if they wanna shut you down or whomp on you, because someone in power does not like you, or they just don't like you, they will. It's not constitutional, but it's reality.

Since I started being a part of the raised rabble in the 90's, I REALLY like the proliferation of cameras and the advent of YouTube. It makes it way harder to hide the truth.

In defense of the cops, though... they are mostly professionals. Not all of them, but most of them. And they often have a really cruddy job to do.

I have to say the black officer standing as part of a line between me and the neo-Nazis some years back...defending the neo-Nazis so they could have their neo- Nazi rally...was a real professional.

Sometimes everybody's job sucks, you know?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Stickler

Cetkat · December 21, 2014

Yeah, I agree Stickler.

I think the main thing I have a problem with, is how some protesters are risking other people's lives. Most protests are announced (at least now), streets are blocked off. Even people arrested for a sit in aren't normally blocking exit routes. Breaking the law and potentially causing harm to others are two very different things - even though they often align.

If you lay down on a major freeway or on train tracks, you are risking lives. One car braking abruptly has cause multi-car pileups in my state, it's not even abnormal now. And, even if braking hard doesn't cause a train to derail... the conductor who runs someone over is scarred for life. That's not the kind of protest that I can support... even if I support the message.

Edit: typo

Edited December 21, 2014 by Cetkat

Stickler · January 6, 2015

Sorry to bring this shit up again...but I had a thought...

We've had shootings now in NYC of police officers, with apparently semi-political motivations behind it...

...sigh...

Back when I was younger, I thought in "us versus them", which is a very popular style of thinking...

I have since come to see that Us vs Them mentality often produces outcomes in which EVERYBODY FUCKING LOSES.

The people need to be part of the long term solution, and so do the police.

I think that dealing with and working to eliminate racism in policing and the justice system will, long term, make it safer to be a cop, and safer to have been born with an abundance of melanin in one's skin.

That is a win-win. Denying the problem exists frustrates me, because the data says it's freaking there. So please to get on with the long process of constructively solving it for all involved, yes?

...I am now going to fuck off to a park. Have a lovely day.

water · January 7, 2015

Sorry to bring this shit up again...but I had a thought...
We've had shootings now in NYC of police officers, with apparently semi-political motivations behind it...
...sigh...
Back when I was younger, I thought in "us versus them", which is a very popular style of thinking...
I have since come to see that Us vs Them mentality often produces outcomes in which EVERYBODY FUCKING LOSES.
The people need to be part of the long term solution, and so do the police.
I think that dealing with and working to eliminate racism in policing and the justice system will, long term, make it safer to be a cop, and safer to have been born with an abundance of melanin in one's skin.
That is a win-win. Denying the problem exists frustrates me, because the data says it's freaking there. So please to get on with the long process of constructively solving it for all involved, yes?
...I am now going to fuck off to a park. Have a lovely day.

Thank you!

This is a wonderful post.

I am seeing the same thing.

NYC is a microcosm of the world. A sort of petri dish experiment.

The two cops were tragically killed by a violent man from Baltimore who took the Bolt Bus to NYC.

The police in the city immediately closed ranks against the city, particularly against the mayor.

Yesterday two policemen were injured during off duty.

Everyone reacted completely different than they did two weeks ago. (was it that long?)

Both the NYPD and the city are realizing that no one is at fault here and everyone is affected.

We are all in this together and if we cannot get along then all is lost.

I was very disturbed at first but now I truly believe that the NYPD is getting the message.

This is not about one man's murderous rage against family and strangers.

This is not about race.

One of my best friends is a cop.

He is retiring in a year. He has seen the worst of peoples lives.

But he has never lost his heart. One of my most generous and loving friends.

That has everything to do with who he is and nothing to do with his profession.

However at the young age of 50 he is retiring. He is gay and out and an exception.

Stickler · January 7, 2015

And...

http://globalgrind.com/2015/01/06/new-jersey-police-shot-kill-jerame-reid-during-traffic-stop-details/

Ben Mosely, a retired sheriff’s deputy, told WPVI-TV he watched the incident from his bedroom window.
He said Reid had gotten out of his car but then tried to get back into the vehicle when officers opened fire, but – based on his own police training — he does not believe the shooting was justified.
“I saw a disarmed man go down to the ground and get shot,” Mosley said. “That’s exactly what I saw.”

Edited January 7, 2015 by Stickler

water · January 7, 2015

Silver Lining,

I bet that Selma will win the Oscar, and the first black female director to ever be nominated for an Oscar will win.

It is supposed to be a superb movie.

I'm rooting for you Ava DuVernay!!

ovOidampUle · January 7, 2015

For everyone who sees Selma: Keep in mind they are being grossly unfair (and perhaps factually inaccurate) to Lyndon Baines. No president has done more for civil rights than he did. None.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schenkkan-civil-rights-lyndon-johnson-20140629-story.html

Still, looks like a great movie and I look forward to seeing it.

water · January 7, 2015

For everyone who sees Selma: Keep in mind they are being grossly unfair (and perhaps factually inaccurate) to Lyndon Baines. No president has done more for civil rights than he did. None.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schenkkan-civil-rights-lyndon-johnson-20140629-story.html

Still, looks like a great movie and I look forward to seeing it.

LBJ Took the IRT down to 4th st. USA.

when he got there what did he see?

The youth of American on LSD.

crtclms · January 8, 2015

LBJ, IRT, USA, LSD.

LSD, LBJ, FBI, CIA....

I loved that album, but I lost it. The movie was okay, too.

ovOidampUle · January 16, 2015

Just came here to tell myself to shut the fuck up. Just saw Selma, and the treatment of LBJ was fine. The real problem is that there is no white hero for white people to whitily identify with; and here I thought black people were given civil rights so I could feel smug about it.

water · January 16, 2015

Just came here to tell myself to shut the fuck up. Just saw Selma, and the treatment of LBJ was fine. The real problem is that there is no white hero for white people to whitily identify with; and here I thought black people were given civil rights so I could feel smug about it.

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so pissed that Ava did not get a nomination.

I am thinking of boycotting the oscars.

That'll get their attention. lol

water · January 16, 2015

LBJ, IRT, USA, LSD.

LSD, LBJ, FBI, CIA....

I loved that album, but I lost it. The movie was okay, too.

Ferguson, MO

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