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y1gFwo

do you think old-fashioned values are SANE compared to today's values?

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values such as: honesty, integrity, strong work ethics, modesty, virtue, loyalty, self-control, marriage and family, friendship, being true to your word, good manners, frugality, empathy, clean language, statesmanship, religion and respect.

note: irrespective of MI and MH

Edited by y1gFwo

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Ngl... I think almost all of those was pure farce. People weren't honest, they maintained an image; perhaps only honest for the special favours they offered those within their circle. Personally modesty isn't as big of a deal everyone makes it, everyone deserves to feel and be comfortable and they don't deserve any less respect or rights because of their short shorts. Family matters; only difference now is that people decide they don't need to put up with abuse because their 'blood'. 

I don't think manners have every really gone out of style, however that could just be where i'm from. 

I just disagree with old- fashioned values especially considering how cultural they can be, you really can't say what true values are; in my opinion.

 

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My grandmother was born in 1912 and I looked up to her as a kid because she provided the stability my parents lacked. As a result, in real life, I have some very old mannerisms and behaviours that hail to her time.

There's two main things we've lost since my grandmother's time. One thing, if it isn't meant to repress, is a lack of focus on our own lives and more attention on the world and people around us. People from her time were capable of listening in a more pure way because they weren't inwardly brewing up some personal response halfway before the person stopped talking. That was considered rude. Their world wasn't about me me me, like it is now. I fall victim to this myself, it's just how things are now I guess.

The other thing I think is a terrible loss, perhaps more than others, is the ability to be self sufficient. Again, my Grandmother grew up on a farm in the middle nowhere North Dakota. They were completely self reliant. A disaster could have wiped out civilisation and they could just continue on as they were without much notice. That certainly isn't how things are today. We are slaves to our own success.

Community at that time also rose to the occasion in difficult times as well. For instance, in the 1918 flu pandemic, many women were trained by the Red Cross in basic medical care and were able to help out the nurses and doctors with the grunt work they didn't have time for. People were more useful to their community than they are now. 

Of course there's all the shitty elements that we somehow look back on as better. Everything looks better when you throw 'nostalgia' into the mix. Simpler times, simpler times... sort of.

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It's interesting to me that many of the values you list as being 'old-fashioned' are very much alive and well in the world, depending on where you look and who you ask.

The ones that come to mind include honesty, integrity, strong work ethic, kindness, sef-control, being true to your word, good manners, empathy, and respect.

Of course, much like saintalto's grandmother, I was raised 6 miles outside of a town of 300 people, Go to the Middle of Nowhere. Drive three hours. That's how you get there.

I wonder what you think today's values are.

I also wonder who you think holds these values both then and now. Different groups of people and individuals place different emphasis on some values over others.

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eh.. my opinion really doesn't matter much. i'm kind of undecided on this just like everything else..  just wanted to know other people's points of view.

Edited by y1gFwo

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2 hours ago, Wooster said:

It's interesting to me that many of the values you list as being 'old-fashioned' are very much alive and well in the world, depending on where you look and who you ask.

The ones that come to mind include honesty, integrity, strong work ethic, kindness, sef-control, being true to your word, good manners, empathy, and respect.

Of course, much like saintalto's grandmother, I was raised 6 miles outside of a town of 300 people, Go to the Middle of Nowhere. Drive three hours. That's how you get there.

 

^^ THIS.

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I don't think religion and clean language is so much. Here where I live I don't know anyone who hasn't declared themselves as atheists, it's feels like a pretty normal thing here in Britain nowadays.

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I think that a lot has changed over the years, but at the same time, a lot of these "old-fashioned" values are still alive.

My own social circles are exceedingly liberal, so statesmanship, modesty, clean language, marriage, and religion are not considered as important as they would have been during my grandmother's (or even my mother's) time. But I do see a lot of other values still at work. There are still lots of good people in the world. I just don't think that things like getting married, being patriotic, being modest, having faith, or not swearing make anyone better than anyone else. In regards to these things, my social circles and I don't (generally) trash other people's beliefs, but at the same time we do not ascribe to these values ourselves.

I know plenty of very honest, loyal, and compassionate people from many generations. I feel that those are the most important values to have-- especially compassion.

Among my generation (millennials), I see a strong work ethic. We bust our asses through college, only to graduate with no good jobs in sight. We take what jobs we can get, regardless of how difficult or low-paying they may be, and do our best to make this whole adulthood thing work. Financially, we're frugal, simply because our wages force us into frugality. We can either be frugal, or we can fall short on rent and grocery money.

I also see a trend towards choosing those who you are loyal to-- irrespective of blood ties. Many people of my generation are willing to cut ties when a relationship with a relative is toxic/abusive/etc. I see nothing wrong with that. No one should have to put up with those behaviors. To us, family is not who you're related-- family is who you can truly count on.



In my region, one thing I wish was still alive was good manners while driving (and general respect for the rules of the road...) But then again, I am in Massachusetts, and we're known for having terrible drivers and general disregard for traffic laws.

I also wish that self-sufficiency and community were more important to my generation.

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As for changes in values, Ogden Nash (a US poet) wrote:

My grandpa notes the world's worn cogs
And says we're going to the dogs.
His grandpa in his house of logs
Said things were going to the dogs.
His grandpa in the Flemish bogs
Said things were going to the dogs.
His grandpa in his hairy togs
Said things were going to the dogs.
But this is what I wish to state.
The dogs have had an awful wait.

Soaring Raven, I lived in Boston for a few years. We called them Massholes.

Believe it or not, Pittsburghers are super polite drivers. Apparently it is a left over from the days of the steel industry, when cars were leaving and entering for shifts at steelworks at the same time. They became good at taking turns, one car in, then one car out. You still see this everywhere in Pittsburgh, including merges.

The exception: The first car at an intersection often makes a fast left into oncoming traffic as soon as the light changes from red to green, aka a "Pittsburgh left."

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I think they are however everyone is different and it has been the same since the dawn of the human race, so not everyone held those old-fashioned values back in the day.

To me the most important values I hold are honesty and virtue even if the word virtue differs with each individual. I have been described as a brutally honest individual because I am a radical libertarian, a centrist radical libertarian to be precise. Freedom of speech is the biggest value I hold. People should be allowed to say what ever they desire in the countries they live in.

Most of the values that I hold are built upon what English law, common European law and the Christian Moral Laws(10 commandmends) reflect with the exception of anything that appears to suppress free speech such as the counter-extremism bill or Germany's censorship of far-right groups which initially appear as good things but actually suppress free speech.

 

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Those values have always existed in only a small percentage of people, and it will probably always be that way. I don't think it has anything to do with the times, or culture, or anything else.  There are those who are strong enough to maintain higher ideals, and those who are not, and those who have no interest and so never find out.

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On 12/30/2015 at 2:07 PM, y1gFwo said:

values such as: honesty, integrity, strong work ethics, modesty, virtue, loyalty, self-control, marriage and family, friendship, being true to your word, good manners, frugality, empathy, clean language, statesmanship, religion and respect.

note: irrespective of MI and MH

No?  And some of these are antiquated values anyway if you ask me.  "Religion" and "clean language" in particular stand out to me.  But then I'm a dirty atheist who loves cursing :P 

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yeah well i don't strongly identify with most of these values anyway, i don't really know why i posted this in the first place tbh. seems to have generated some discussion, though.

Edited by y1gFwo

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The Golden rule.   Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.   *Good.

Re: Religion.  I think I'm fortunate to not have to rely a lot on pure faith.  I've had some experiences that were kind of the 2x4 upside the head that there is more to this life then random chance. 

But if I can paraphrase a guy who was nailed to a cross (literally) When he was being grilled by the religion police / Lawyers of his era on "Gods Laws" he said something to the effect "If 10 laws are too many or just too difficult for you to get let me simplify this to just one.   Love each other."   How old fashioned is that?  I would say that this covers all the rest of the stuff pretty well.  Of course for saying this he was put on "trial" and murdered in public.    Sadly it seems like anyone who promotes peace and love end up getting killed for their efforts to make the world a tiny bit better.   *Which considering how fucked it is shouldn't take much.

I was just pondering how many TV shows are about crime and murder and people doing awful things to each other.  And Politics?  Adultry, Abortions, Child Abuse, Drone strikes, waterboarding, Human Bombs...  I think we need a reset to the one commandment idea and see how that works for a change.

 

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1 hour ago, HAL9000 said:

The Golden rule.   Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.   *Good.

Re: Religion.  I think I'm fortunate to not have to rely a lot on pure faith.  I've had some experiences that were kind of the 2x4 upside the head that there is more to this life then random chance. 

But if I can paraphrase a guy who was nailed to a cross (literally) When he was being grilled by the religion police / Lawyers of his era on "Gods Laws" he said something to the effect "If 10 laws are too many or just too difficult for you to get let me simplify this to just one.   Love each other."   How old fashioned is that?  I would say that this covers all the rest of the stuff pretty well.  Of course for saying this he was put on "trial" and murdered in public.    Sadly it seems like anyone who promotes peace and love end up getting killed for their efforts to make the world a tiny bit better.   *Which considering how fucked it is shouldn't take much.

I was just pondering how many TV shows are about crime and murder and people doing awful things to each other.  And Politics?  Adultry, Abortions, Child Abuse, Drone strikes, waterboarding, Human Bombs...  I think we need a reset to the one commandment idea and see how that works for a change.

 

 

Hal, for once I'm with you. Compassion and forgiveness are key. But, nobody wants to expose themselves like that, because when they do, they're vulnerable to attack.

 

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I didn't know we disagreed but I know I can type some really stupid stuff.   And Chat at 3AM??  I could blame the Ambien on that but even without it I can type moronic stuff.  

I think the thing we agree on is the most important thing to agree on.  Like that one law thing.  If you do that everything else sort of falls into place.

Forgiveness is one thing that keeps me in the worst spin.   I think doing it is nobel.  I think its the right thing to do.  When I do it my pride?  Or the "Am I just a sucker or stupid or what?" pops into my head a lot.  I can't quote things right but forgive if you want forgivness or something?  I have problems with that.  In fact I think this is one reason I started seeing a TDoc and told my GDoc that things had just crossed the line into being just "too much" 

Compassion and empathy.  I have to say those are attractive qualities in a person.  Be it a friend, one of the Docs, family, neighbors your dog or whoever.  And the reverse of that?  I dunno...  It really flips my switch.  Why do people go out of their way to hurt or kill?  Someone said the old way, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" just assured us of all being blind and toothless.   Somehow to be better we have to work on that.   And I know religion gets a bad rap.  I think there are a long list of examples of organized religion stuff that is worse then the worst.  But unorganized faith in something better then yourself?  Thats always seemed key.  But now I'm rambling again. 

 

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