Holding Our Politicians Accountable

[tired tammy]

An interesting political topic came up in chat today and I have thought about how I mishandled the subject. I want to apologize to anyone I may have offended. The subjects of politics and religion are usually best left alone, but in these times, they are causes of a lot of anxiety and stress and sometimes cannot always be avoided.

I have strong feelings of worry and anxiety about our president-elect and try to keep informed by reading a variety of news sources and sometimes that man's twitter  account account if i can stomach it, since that is the only way he will communicate with the masses.

It is not just Trump who worries me, but the Pandora's box that has been opened with the rise of his movement-emboldened extreme right-wing politicians and white supremacists and people who are desperate, misinformed and just don't know any better.

No matter your political affiliation, it is your duty as a citizen (if you are one) of this country to hold your elected officials accountable to do the right things in your local, state and national offices. Fact check things you read in more than one place (NOT Facebook!) and call your representatives to voice your opinions! It works. This is what made republicans back off dissolving the Congressional Ethics Committee more than a tweet from the Donald. 

We are living in dangerous times and must hold EVERYONE to high standards! Look into everything and see beyond your party affiliation to make sure it is good for this country, I beg you. Insured citizens are much better off for all of us than uninsured, as are recipients of Medicaid and Medicare.

Thanks for letting me vent!

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-lesson-be-learned-the-gops-ethics-fiasco?cid=sm_fb_maddow

Edited January 5, 2017 by tired tammy
forgot link

[melissaw72]

I agree that the politicians should be held accountable.

[nestor]

I'm glad Trump opened up the Pandora's box, hopefully it will obliterate neoliberalism and the politicians who can only be counted on slavish adherence to it. Maybe America will finally develope a political left that actually stands for all poor people instead of employing divide-and-conquer race-baiting bullshit that only keeps the poor enslaved under neoliberalism

[Flash]

11 hours ago, nestor said:

I'm glad Trump opened up the Pandora's box, hopefully it will obliterate neoliberalism and the politicians who can only be counted on slavish adherence to it. Maybe America will finally develope a political left that actually stands for all poor people instead of employing divide-and-conquer race-baiting bullshit that only keeps the poor enslaved under neoliberalism

I think you need to look up neoliberalism, because it is not the liberal analog to neoconservatism, as your post seems to imply. It is very much in the conservative camp, not the liberal one.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Flash

[nestor]

Neoliberalism is the economic compliment to the foreign policy of neoconservative, which the Democrats and especially Hillary have also been following.

[Flash]

You meant complement, not compliment. And that I would agree with. It is, however, associated with privatization, free markets, deregulation, and austerity. That is conservative economics associated with Reagan, Bush, Trump, and other Republicans, not Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.

[nestor]

Obama and Hillary did nothing to reverse privatization, they maintained the Bush tax cuts, their attempts to expand the social safety net was abysmal and halfhearted, and they attempted to push through the TPP, a model neoliberal trade deal which would have further gutted the working class, as well as introduce draconian copyright laws.

Edited January 7, 2017 by nestor

[Gearhead]

You can put a lid on the racism right now, Nestor, regardless of your political leanings, or you can leave. Those are you two choices. Edit that post or get out.

[nestor]

Please explain what I said that was racist and I will.

[Gearhead]

"Obongo" doesn't strike you as racist? As a way to mock the name of a man of African ancestry?

[jt07]

1 hour ago, nestor said:

Please explain what I said that was racist and I will.

You are being deliberately obtuse. You know what is racist. We don't tolerate racism here in any form.

[nestor]

I honestly didn't view it as racist when I first heard it used, and by the time I did I was too used to it and hated Obama too much to care. If I could I would tell you PC pricks to shove it, but the reason I even am here is that I betrayed one of my most sacred ideals causing me to lose my mind. While you PC folk are obnoxious and dishonorable, I am even more dishonorable and have any right to stand up to you people anymore, at least until I have punished myself for my transgression. But even then probably not, my spirit has been broken.

[jt07]

Being against racism is not being PC. Learn the difference.

[Cerberus]

nestor -

The Copyright Law of the United States (Title 17) has been refined by various administrations over many decades since 1783 and is not, in any sense, a draconian set of regulations. Rather, Copyright Law protects the intellectual property rights of the creators of works so that they can make a living by creating works that benefit society. It is in the interest of society at large to encourage and enable creators of intellectual property to produce such works. Many who decry Copyright Law as in some way "unfair" are in fact complaining that they simply aren't allowed to steal the hard work of other people for their own purposes, or enjoy the results of that work without paying a fair and reasonable compensation. They overlook the point that without the protection of Copyright Law, the creative people who produce the books, music, art, movies and other content could not afford do spend their time doing so, and there would be no content to consume.

By including a claim that President Obama and Secretary Clinton introduced "draconian copyright laws" you clearly make a demonstrably false assertion (the President, as chief of the Executive Branch, has no power or function to introduce new laws to Congress, and in her role as Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton had even less ability to do so) and thereby undermine your own credibility for the rest of your arguments, already severely undercut by your choice of inflammatory propagandist rhetoric from the very first word.

You will find that at CrazyBoards, we spend a lot of time looking up actual facts about our MI conditions, medications, and treatments. Fact-checking is extremely important here. That makes us predisposed to look up actual facts about other things as well.

We are not, in fact, crazy, and we don't put up with a lot of crazy talk.

Just saying.

[Flash]

19 hours ago, nestor said:

Obongo and Hillary did nothing to reverse privatization, they maintained the Bush tax cuts, their attempts to expand the social safety net was abysmal and halfhearted, and they attempted to push through the TPP, a model neoliberal trade deal which would have further gutted the working class, as well as introduce draconian copyright laws.

Obongo? Really? Are you really that racist? Hillary Clinton opposed the TPP, incidentally, and democrats increased taxes on the rich. Are you in some kind of alternate reality? I think you would be hard-pressed to find any example or Obama or Clinton, or most other democrats encouraging privatization. Can you name even one example? Trump and the republicans are another story. That's their fucking wet dream, along with crippling regulatory control and unions, issuing big tax breaks to the rich, and reversing rights that have been granted to women and minorities. About 20% of Trump supporters think Lincoln shouldn't have freed the slaves. That's mind-boggling. Trump is a narcissistic, misogynistic, xenophobic demagogue, and I have no sympathy for anyone who supports that jackass. The rest of the world is absolutely horrified at what has transpired here. 

I am only comforted by the fact that it would be historically unprecedented for a recession not to occur during his first, and hopefully only term. He makes these ridiculous claims that simply aren't going to happen (e.g., sustained 4% real economic growth, and Mexico paying  for his idiotic border wall, neither of which will ever happen). And when the economy sours and people finally see him for what he is, they will boot his fucking ass out. Unfortunately, the damage will be done. This election debacle likely erased any chance of having a liberal judiciary during my lifetime. It's been conservative my whole life, and now will likely still remain so until I'm planted in the ground. But I will be happy in 2020, when the people of this nation say, "you're fired."

Edited January 6, 2017 by Flash

[nestor]

The quote system is messed up, at least for me, but I'll try my best:

Being against racism is not being PC. Learn the difference.

Being nitpicky about it and flipping out over innocuous things like calling Obama a silly corruption of his name is surly verging into PC territory. But I digress, unless it was especially blatant like calling him a slur, this is all just semantics. I would certainly contend that calling Obama Obongo isn't racism at all, but you would certainly disagree with that and we would get in a big argument over semantics that I have no energy for.

 

Cerberus, I don't believe limited effort should result in infinite gain, I believe copyright laws as they are stacked far too heavily in favour of the creators and need to be reformed, the copyright regulations that would have been introduced by TTP would have made them worse. And I never said that Obama and Hillary introduced the TTP, but they certainly supported it and Obama tried his best to get it signed, while Hillary only jettisoned her support for it when it became too politicaly toxic.

Flash I'll get to you later as I'm on my shitty tablet and It's already taken nearly half an hour to just type out what I have.

 

 

[Gearhead]

"Just semantics." Where, o where, shall I start with this?

How about with a definition? "Semantics, or the study of relationships between words and how we construct meaning, sheds light on how we experience the world and how we understand others and ourselves." *

Hmm. Light on how we experience the world. On how we understand ourselves and others.

Do you remember being told as a little kid that sticks and stones might break your bones but words could never hurt you? You ever noticed that no one says that until someone has been deeply hurt by words? 

Because words hurt; not only do they cause pain, they do damage. Words have the ability to shape how we think about the world. When you denigrate someone with a corruption of their name, you indicate disrespect at best, and you spread that attitude to anyone who hears you. 

And around here, we don't tolerate the denigration of other people. To most people, we are other. So this is a safe space for everyone, and whatever your politics might be, you can express them respectfully, or you can keep them to yourself. Those are your only choices. 

We don't allow expressions of categoric hatred-

9 hours ago, nestor said:

I honestly didn't view it as racist when I first heard it used, and by the time I did I was too used to it and hated Obama too much to care. 

and we certainly don't allow racism. 

So you think hard about what you mean if you want to stay here.

 

*http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-semantics-definition-examples-quiz.html

[Cerberus]

11 hours ago, nestor said:

I don't believe limited effort should result in infinite gain, I believe copyright laws as they are stacked far too heavily in favour of the creators and need to be reformed

The limited effort you have put into your argument isn't going to get you much gain, either, because it's not convincing in the slightest.

Copyright Law not only does not provide for "infinite gain", it establishes a finite limit on the time in which a copyright holder may exclusively gain the benefit of the work. Plus, what do you mean by "limited effort"? This sounds suspiciously like the muttering of someone who hasn't got a clue how difficult it is to create value in content, or how to value talent or creativity. "Stacked too heavily in favour of the creators"? As opposed to whom? Who else other than the creators has an inherent right to benefit from that which is created? You? If I dig a diamond out of the ground, how much time would you have pass before you should gain the right to sell my diamond? I think you'll find that Copyright Law allows a reasonable license intended for the life of a creator plus a certain period for the benefit of his or her heirs before the work enters the public domain. As it should.

 

Edited to add:

Oh, and although Gearhead is doing a splendid job of handing you your ass in a bag over the racism issue, I just can't help reviewing your own words here:

I honestly didn't view it as racist when I first heard it used, and by the time I did I was too used to it and hated Obama too much to care.

So by the time you did view it as racist, meaning that you do now see that it is, you are now used to it. So you are now used to being racist. And you hate the President (presumably because of his race) too much to care whether your words are racist, so your words are therefore not only willfully racist, but also hate-speech. Be very, very, very careful what you say next.

You know, nestor, in Greek mythology, Nestor was an Argonaut, Nestor of Gerenia, who was respected by the other Argonauts for his age and his experience, though his advice was always accompanied by humor at his own expense because he couldn't offer it without telling tales about himself.

We're not laughing.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Cerberus

[Velvet Elvis]

21 hours ago, nestor said:

The quote system is messed up, at least for me, but I'll try my best:

Being against racism is not being PC. Learn the difference.

Being nitpicky about it and flipping out over innocuous things like calling Obama a silly corruption of his name is surly verging into PC territory. But I digress, unless it was especially blatant like calling him a slur, this is all just semantics. I would certainly contend that calling Obama Obongo isn't racism at all, but you would certainly disagree with that and we would get in a big argument over semantics that I have no energy for.

 

Cerberus, I don't believe limited effort should result in infinite gain, I believe copyright laws as they are stacked far too heavily in favour of the creators and need to be reformed, the copyright regulations that would have been introduced by TTP would have made them worse. And I never said that Obama and Hillary introduced the TTP, but they certainly supported it and Obama tried his best to get it signed, while Hillary only jettisoned her support for it when it became too politicaly toxic.

Flash I'll get to you later as I'm on my shitty tablet and It's already taken nearly half an hour to just type out what I have.

 

 

I agree with you on all points other than the name.  Please don't play with his name.  Regardless of if you have racist intentions or not, it often comes off that way.  I absolutely agree neoliberalism needs to die.  I resent the hell out of the Clintions and the DLC for ramming Reaganomics up the ass of The Democratic Party, fucking over the working class to appease the needs of the Wall Street.  That shit is why I voted for Nader in 2000 and would have voted for Stein this time if it was Hillary vs a normal Republican.   If the Democratic party can't make economic justice a priory again, it needs to die and be replaced by something that's going to listen to needs of the 99%.

 

[nestor]

On 01/07/2017 at 0:01 AM, Cerberus said:

The limited effort you have put into your argument isn't going to get you much gain, either, because it's not convincing in the slightest.

Copyright Law not only does not provide for "infinite gain", it establishes a finite limit on the time in which a copyright holder may exclusively gain the benefit of the work. Plus, what do you mean by "limited effort"? This sounds suspiciously like the muttering of someone who hasn't got a clue how difficult it is to create value in content, or how to value talent or creativity. "Stacked too heavily in favour of the creators"? As opposed to whom? Who else other than the creators has an inherent right to benefit from that which is created? You? If I dig a diamond out of the ground, how much time would you have pass before you should gain the right to sell my diamond? I think you'll find that Copyright Law allows a reasonable license intended for the life of a creator plus a certain period for the benefit of his or her heirs before the work enters the public domain. As it should.

 

Edited to add:

Oh, and although Gearhead is doing a splendid job of handing you your ass in a bag over the racism issue, I just can't help reviewing your own words here:

So by the time you did view it as racist, meaning that you do now see that it is, you are now used to it. So you are now used to being racist. And you hate the President (presumably because of his race) too much to care whether your words are racist, so your words are therefore not only willfully racist, but also hate-speech. Be very, very, very careful what you say next.

You know, nestor, in Greek mythology, Nestor was an Argonaut, Nestor of Gerenia, who was respected by the other Argonauts for his age and his experience, though his advice was always accompanied by humor at his own expense because he couldn't offer it without telling tales about himself.

We're not laughing.

 

I put in a limited effort because I was on a shitty tablet, the quote system wasn't working and I'm mentally ill and trying to type anything out is like being pricked with needles. But now I'm on a computer with a keyboard, the quote system is working, I'm on Gabapenten so the prickly needle feeling isn't as bad, and you're assumptions are making an ass out of you.

Copyright laws may provide infinite gain, but they come far too close to it with copyright lasting for decades after the creators death. And copyright does not protect any physical property, but ideas and expressions. One of the things I value most is the free exchange and expression of ideas, it should not be controlled in anyway, it should not be suppressed for the sake of Mamon  or to preserve fragile feelings.

 

Geerhead is only letting slip his inner totalitarian, I hate the President not because of his race, but for his utter betrayal of the spirit and premise of his campaign for president.

 

One of the things I hate most in the world is military adventurism and interventionism, no matter how lofty the ideals that drive it, it always leads to mass slaughter abroad and increasing authoritarianism at home. The shinning example of this is Woodrow Wilson's intervention in WWi. He did it to "make the world safe for democracy", but it only extended the war and caused hundreds of thousands of more deaths, created political instability in Europe and Germany that allowed for the rise of fascism and Nazism in Europe and some of the worst mass infringement of  liberty in the United States thus far.

Another perpetrator of this catastrophic foreign policy is Reagan, who not only funded the murderous Contrast in Nicaraguan, supported Saddam and his brutal regime as a counter to Iran(which was turned into an Islamic theocracy thanks to Eisenhower and the British overthrowing the democratically elected government and installing a dictator) and who recklessly funded Islamist rebels in Afghanistan that lead to a political vacuum in the country after the Soviets left and allowed the Taliban to take control, establishing a brutal theocratic state that harbored al-Qaeda, who orchestrated 9/11, which leads us to Bush.

He thought to win this new war on terror, we had to go to war with Saddam Hussein, destroy his imaginary WMDs and bring democracy to Iraq, which resulted in a Trillion dollar war that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and directly enabled the rise of the Islamic State.

Now comes Barack Obama, with his promise of Hope and Change, ending the war in Iraq and trying to bring the war in Afghanistan to a speedy conclusion. When he gets elected to office, what does he do? MORE WAR. He withdraws from Iraq but he intervenes in the Libyan war with his Secretary of State leading the charge, and ending with the most prosperous state in Africa being shattered and into pieces and becoming a den for more Islamic terrorists who will no doubt attack the United States again and drag us into yet another brutal trillion dollar war. He also recklessly armed Syrian  rebels, with many of them turning out to be Islamic terrorists, further empowering them and allowing the rise of the Islamic state in Syria, which is murdering thousands of people in Syria and Iraq and inspiring terrorist attacks across Europe and America. He also has tried to start a new Cold War with Russia by continuing the unnecessary and antagonizing expansion of western influence in the former Soviet Union, and putting sanctions on Russia when it finally decided to say enough is enough by securing a buffer in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

This continuation of the catastrophic foreign policy that has failed over and over again this century has ingrained in me a furious hatred of Obama, which is exacerbated by his failure to expand the welfare state sufficiently, to provide  a public option for healthcare instead of the corporate sellout we got, and to reign in and punish Wallstreet. I have no respect for him, and hate calling him by his real name, especially when he has a brother who shares the same name and is far more respectable. 

Oh, and about my name, I stole it from one of the cats long, long ago.

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by nestor

[nestor]

On 1/6/2017 at 11:38 PM, Gearhead said:

"Just semantics." Where, o where, shall I start with this?

How about with a definition? "Semantics, or the study of relationships between words and how we construct meaning, sheds light on how we experience the world and how we understand others and ourselves." *

Hmm. Light on how we experience the world. On how we understand ourselves and others.

Do you remember being told as a little kid that sticks and stones might break your bones but words could never hurt you? You ever noticed that no one says that until someone has been deeply hurt by words? 

Because words hurt; not only do they cause pain, they do damage. Words have the ability to shape how we think about the world. When you denigrate someone with a corruption of their name, you indicate disrespect at best, and you spread that attitude to anyone who hears you. 

And around here, we don't tolerate the denigration of other people. To most people, we are other. So this is a safe space for everyone, and whatever your politics might be, you can express them respectfully, or you can keep them to yourself. Those are your only choices. 

We don't allow expressions of categoric hatred-

and we certainly don't allow racism. 

So you think hard about what you mean if you want to stay here.

 

*http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-semantics-definition-examples-quiz.html

People who are so mentally fragile to the point where words actually hurt them need serious intervention to make them stronger, not being kept in a fragile bubble that only exacerbates their weakness. It's no different than locking someone with AIDS in a sterile dungeon and allowing the disease to progress instead of actually giving them medication to treat it, so when they do leave the dungeon they quickly succumb to the common cold. There's always going to be genuinely racist people who use words far more virulent than mine, if words as benign as mine cause such pain to anyone, I fear what might happen to them if they ever encounter an actual racist. My mental state is as bad as it is because I was left to rot in a safe space, my Dad wanted to keep me safe from the abuses of the mental health system, but instead my problems have only gotten exponentially worse.

Edited January 8, 2017 by nestor

[jt07]

It's not about people being fragile and being hurt by a name. It's about respect. That's all. (And I don't mean respect for Obama here).

[Cerberus]

Tsk.

The poor workman alway blames his tools.

The state of your tablet is immaterial. Nothing you posted since my last reply addressed my actual arguments, which stand unchallenged.

Ironically, my political philosophy aligns with yours very closely. I, too, was deeply disappointed with the failure of the Obama Administration to deliver on a number of progressive ideals. The difference is that I can see that a man with both hands tied behind his back by a Republican-controlled House of Representatives and later a Republican-led Senate led by a man I am ashamed to call a Kentuckian, both damned and determined to stonewall him at every turn, were the principal cause. My disgust lies not with the President, but with the American people, who continue to elect the imbeciles who are leading them to ruin faster than Nero could burn Rome. Case in point: the recent election.

But your beef isn't really with President Obama, as you prove three posts up when (evidently in spite of feeling pricked by needles) you are able to at length lambast presidents from Woodrow Wilson on down the line about the American military/industrial complex and foreign policy, culminating with the ubiquitous -and illogical - blame-it-all-on-the-current-president conclusion arrived at by the very same sort of people who just elected Donald Trump.

Add to which, rather than apologizing for your unapologetically racist language, you have the brass balls to tell people here that anybody who needs a safe space is a weakling. Our User Agreement defines our code of conduct rather broadly: 1. Don't Be A Jerk. How do we know if a member is being a jerk? If a member is being a bigger asshole than the Mods, the member is being a jerk, and is in violation of the User Agreement. This has worked well for CB for more than a decade now. The whole Moderating Team is in agreement that using racist language makes one a Jerk. Capice?

Blather on all you want about the injustice of the political world, for all the good it will do you. If you post illogical nonsense, expect to have your ass handed to you on a plate, because people here know how to use their brains.

But whatever you post, do it with a civil tongue in your head. Do not test us further.

 

Cerberus
Moderator

Edited January 8, 2017 by Cerberus

[nestor]

2 hours ago, Cerberus said:

Tsk.

The poor workman alway blames his tools.

The state of your tablet is immaterial. Nothing you posted since my last reply addressed my actual arguments, which stand unchallenged.

Ironically, my political philosophy aligns with yours very closely. I, too, was deeply disappointed with the failure of the Obama Administration to deliver on a number of progressive ideals. The difference is that I can see that a man with both hands tied behind his back by a Republican-controlled House of Representatives and later a Republican-led Senate led by a man I am ashamed to call a Kentuckian, both damned and determined to stonewall him at every turn, were the principal cause. My disgust lies not with the President, but with the American people, who continue to elect the imbeciles who are leading them to ruin faster than Nero could burn Rome. Case in point: the recent election.

But your beef isn't really with President Obama, as you prove three posts up when (evidently in spite of feeling pricked by needles) you are able to at length lambast presidents from Woodrow Wilson on down the line about the American military/industrial complex and foreign policy, culminating with the ubiquitous -and illogical - blame-it-all-on-the-current-president conclusion arrived at by the very same sort of people who just elected Donald Trump.

Add to which, rather than apologizing for your unapologetically racist language, you have the brass balls to tell people here that anybody who needs a safe space is a weakling. Our User Agreement defines our code of conduct rather broadly: 1. Don't Be A Jerk. How do we know if a member is being a jerk? If a member is being a bigger asshole than the Mods, the member is being a jerk, and is in violation of the User Agreement. This has worked well for CB for more than a decade now. The whole Moderating Team is in agreement that using racist language makes one a Jerk. Capice?

Blather on all you want about the injustice of the political world, for all the good it will do you. If you post illogical nonsense, expect to have your ass handed to you on a plate, because people here know how to use their brains.

But whatever you post, do it with a civil tongue in your head. Do not test us further.

 

Cerberus
Moderator

Come now, don't let your insecurity in your beliefs cause you to become intellectually dishonest. I challenged all of your points, I elaborated my case in regards to copyright, I refuted your knee-jerk assumption that I hated Obama because of his race, and I also explained the meaning behind my name.

 

I understand that his failures on domestic issues were mostly due to Republican obstruction, but he could have tried harder to force through the Public Option, when there was still a Democrat majority in the Senate. But he did have much more leverage over foreign policy, especially in regard to Libya where the was strong bipartisan opposition to the war, where he could have told the French and Italians to back off and tried force and even handed armistice, but instead he opted for yet another regime change. He also had control over supporting the Syrian rebels, he could have chose strict neutrality and tried to bring about an even armistice favoring neither side. In regards to Russia,  he should have tried to be more understanding behind the reasons of Russia's conquest of Crimea. Russia had gone through many devastating invasions by neighboring powers and feared being endangered once again by the encroachment of Nato in the former Soviet bloc and they needed to put a final stop to it before they became completely encircled.

 

In regards to people needing safe spaces, the first step to recovery is admitting your faults, not wallowing in them. I speak from experience, instead of taking action to fix them both my dad and I allowed me to wallow in my own weakness in my own safe space and look what I've become. You chastise me for being a jerk for trying to explain the reasons behind my use of language, but you are being one by trivializing my mental issues, which is especially ironic as this is supposed to be a forum for understanding such issues. You don't realize how much mental torment I'm in, since Christmas eve I've only left the house twice, in the dead of night to a store right by me, I've stayed in my own safe space for so long that it's starting to collapse in on me, I can't even step outside or type on my tablet without being assaulted by intrusive thoughts that are like needles in my flesh and I need drugs to bring some relief. I don't exaggerate when I say this is hell on earth, if this were a dream and I woke up back to how I was, this undoubtedly would be the worst nightmare ever. The only way I can deal with it is by retreating further into a mentally numb inner safe space. And this is all because of my own weakness, this whole thing could have been prevented if I had the willpower and determination to take the actions necessary, and even after it had begun I could have stopped it if I took the necessary actions and I will continue to be tormented until I take the necessary actions. My contempt for weakness is not illogical and I don't look down upon those who suffer from it, because I am one of those people, what I truly hate is attempting to exacerbate such weakness by discouraging those from trying to overcome it through keeping them locked in a fragile safe space. I know first hand the tragedy that results from such actions. But you seem like you don't want listen, you seem to refuse the possibility that there are deeper meanings to my words outside of your preconceived notions, which are so fragile that you have to dismiss any challenge to them as blather.

Edited January 8, 2017 by nestor

[Cerberus]

Your second paragraph is much better from a rhetorical standpoint and makes far more persuasive arguments without any need to reference his race or ethnicity. Very good.

Your third paragraph, however, tells us that the contempt you claim to have for the mentally ill who are not "taking action" (as you vaguely define it) is in fact self-contempt projected on those around you.

I am sorry you feel this way. There is no need. If you believe that the key to overcoming mental illness is to become an active participant in your own care and to seek out both medical and therapeutic solutions, then CrazyBoards is absolutely the place to be because that is our mantra. We encourage everyone here to do exactly that. We hear that you are suffering, and how badly, though I should tell you that this isn't the Suffering Olympics here, and if you're trying to out-suffer some of our members you've got a lo-o-o-ong way to go. I, for one, haven't suffered nearly as badly as some here, but let's take my personal example:

I have fought crushing treatment-resistant Major Depressive Disorder with Dysthymia (Double Depression) for 40 years, often so bad that I can't get out of bed for days, and often beg God to kill me though I dare not take my own life because of the trauma it would inflict on my family. On top of this, I get to deal with Tourette's Syndrome and Hemiplegic Migraine, and have had to live a life as an autistic with Asperger's Syndrome in a world of neurotypicals who have misunderstood, marginalized, persecuted and assaulted me. Yet I have managed to hold down a full-time job in the public sector for 25 years, take a handful of meds every day as prescribed and deal with the side effects, went through 20 years of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and raised two kids in spite of a hard divorce not of my choosing. I've endured repeated surgeries for sciatica that have made it practically impossible for me to walk or to sleep - my flesh feels like it gets pierced with knives, not pricked with needles. Oh, and I nearly died of AIDS two years ago, and I'm alive now and healthy because I'm fighting back and because the fictional "bubble" you describe that protects AIDS patients does not exist. I live alone and have to take care of myself. I have a mentally numb inner space that is black as India ink and would make yours feel like Disneyland. And I am in awe of some of the other members on here who have survived and overcome much worse than I have.

To wit: Do not presume to understand, let alone judge, the strength or weakness of anyone here based on your own self-assessment. I know I may seem hard on you, but I would much rather be helping you with your own personal struggle than defending the rest of the members here against your un-called-for denigration of those taking temporary advantage of the benefit that this place affords them as a safe space to be Mentally Interesting. As, ironically, are you.

Any time you want to step up and take your real problems by the horns, we're here for you, and we will help. I suggest that you split off these concerns from your strictly political discussion and either shift them to a more targeted forum, or start a new thread on one of our forums related to your MI issues. If you would like a Moderator to assist with moving any content, please feel free to contact any one of us.

[nestor]

I don't have contempt for the mentally ill, I have contempt for the idea of safe spaces that inhibit the mentally ill from getting help, it's the opposite extreme of those who insist on pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Most people can't do that, but I could have, that's why I'm being self-critical. Safe-spacers try to help, but refuse to face the problem, while boot-strappers recognize the problem has to be faced, but refuse to help. What's needed is the problem to be recognized and a helping hand given. 

And I'm trying to start a suffering Olympics, I just want my suffering acknowledged at all, just poverty in America should be acknowledged and not trivialized because it's not bad like Africa.

[Cerberus]

Okay, fair enough. I do indeed recognize that you've been dealt a bad hand and that you have MI challenges that are making your life hellish. You're in good company here at CB. We understand. We totally get the thing about the gabapentin side-effects and having to put up with side effects just to get the slightest relief from the mental pain and misery. We hear you, and can tell you're unhappy, and we know how hard you must be struggling to get through every day.

We're not going to coddle you, because we don't do that here, and you don't want that anyway. You want a hand up so you can keep going under your own power. Good for you.

But why do you say "I could have"? Why waste the time being self-critical? What's stopping you from being a boot-strapper now? Do you think you're too far gone to pull yourself up? You're not. The very fact that you can imagine doing so tells us you're not. So it's time to figure out exactly what it is that is standing in your way - exactly what obstacle prevents you from being that person who takes his healing into his own hands.

Blaming gets you absolutely nowhere - blaming your father, blaming yourself, blaming others who are failing, blaming others who are succeeding, blaming the "system" - none of it moves you one millimeter forward. But you can move forward any time you want, just by deciding to take the step yourself.

So, how about it?

[DopamineSick]

All I know is that these fucking assholes better not touch my Medicaid. It's literally all I have left. Take it away and I'm dead.

3 hours ago, nestor said:

I don't have contempt for the mentally ill, I have contempt for the idea of safe spaces that inhibit the mentally ill from getting help, it's the opposite extreme of those who insist on pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Most people can't do that, but I could have, that's why I'm being self-critical. Safe-spacers try to help, but refuse to face the problem, while boot-strappers recognize the problem has to be faced, but refuse to help. What's needed is the problem to be recognized and a helping hand given. 

And I'm trying to start a suffering Olympics, I just want my suffering acknowledged at all, just poverty in America should be acknowledged and not trivialized because it's not bad like Africa.

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? Is this entire website a "safe space"? I don't even understand your premise because I don't think you even have one.

[Velvet Elvis]

This site is by design a safe space for people with mental health conditions.  I'm pretty sure that's what every mental health support site is.  If you're categorically opposed to safe spaces, please leave here and talk about your mental health issues in open public spaces.  Be prepared to be told repeatedly that you need to smile more.

 

[nestor]

17 hours ago, Cerberus said:

Okay, fair enough. I do indeed recognize that you've been dealt a bad hand and that you have MI challenges that are making your life hellish. You're in good company here at CB. We understand. We totally get the thing about the gabapentin side-effects and having to put up with side effects just to get the slightest relief from the mental pain and misery. We hear you, and can tell you're unhappy, and we know how hard you must be struggling to get through every day.

We're not going to coddle you, because we don't do that here, and you don't want that anyway. You want a hand up so you can keep going under your own power. Good for you.

But why do you say "I could have"? Why waste the time being self-critical? What's stopping you from being a boot-strapper now? Do you think you're too far gone to pull yourself up? You're not. The very fact that you can imagine doing so tells us you're not. So it's time to figure out exactly what it is that is standing in your way - exactly what obstacle prevents you from being that person who takes his healing into his own hands.

Blaming gets you absolutely nowhere - blaming your father, blaming yourself, blaming others who are failing, blaming others who are succeeding, blaming the "system" - none of it moves you one millimeter forward. But you can move forward any time you want, just by deciding to take the step yourself.

So, how about it?

I'm just explaining the cause and effect of how I got here, I'm not trying to be excessively self-criticizing, I'm just laying out the facts. I know I still theoretically can pull myself up, put to do so will be very painful, and it's that fear of pain that stopped me from doing it all the other times I tried. I need to harness the power of faith ad belief in my values to overcome that pain.

[nestor]

5 hours ago, Velvet Elvis said:

This site is by design a safe space for people with mental health conditions.  I'm pretty sure that's what every mental health support site is.  If you're categorically opposed to safe spaces, please leave here and talk about your mental health issues in open public spaces.  Be prepared to be told repeatedly that you need to smile more.

 

I'm challenging the the benefits of a safe space based on my own experiences and would be open to counter arguments in their favor. Speaking further on my own experiences, the two places I've been to prior to this place where I've spilled my guts were in stark contrast to eachother and I had two radically different experiences.

One had almost no moderation whatsoever, shitposting was rampant, you could use whatever hurtful language you wanted,I myself was a shitposter their as well(though I wasn't really the hurtful type, my type of shitposting was unique to the style of the forum I was on and was more obnoxious than malicious) and I actually had been voted the worst shitposter of the year there. Then in one of the threads I had been shitposting in I started to have a mental breakdown and reveal all my woes. Did everyone say I should just smile more, or flat out tell me to fuck off and mock me when they had every right to? No, they actually felt sympathy with and tried to talk with me about my problems until I got board of talking about my problems and kept refusing their advice and they got fed up with me and the matter ended. 

The other was a "safe space", but the users and especially the moderators had little sympathy for  me and when I mildly lashed out against one of the users one of the mods violently came down on me, I told him to go fuck himself and I was permanently banned there with the moderators mocking me.

The lesson I've learned is that people tend to be more genuinely sympathetic and compassionate without Big Brother breathing down their necks. I'm not asking you to change your views, I just want you to consider mine.

 

[DopamineSick]

20 minutes ago, nestor said:

I'm challenging the the benefits of a safe space based on my own experiences and would be open to counter arguments in their favor.

So why are here, in this designed "safe space"? Right now, you're just pissing people off. Why don't you go troll a cancer support group (btw, I don't think you're intentionally trying to troll here)? You don't do it because that would make you a giant asshole. So why are you doing this here? The only thing I can think of is that you don't really believe mental illness is "real." If that's the case, then you should just leave right now, and never come back because there is really no point in even debating these things.

It sounds like there are fundamental differences here that are irreconcilable. Unfortunately, for you, your side of the argument is completely unsupported and frankly, ridiculous in light of things like, you know....reality, facts and science. Again, there's really no point in having this "debate" because all you're going to do is piss people off and nothing will change in anybody's mind.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DopamineSick

[nestor]

I'm here because this forum specializess in mental illness and has resources that help me deal with my own. What have I said that leads you to the conclusion that I don't believe mental illness is real? What I don't believe is that safe spaces are a good remedy for them.

You say my argument is unsupported, but I just supported it with my own experience. You on the other hand say your position is supported by facts and science, but I don't see you showing me any fact or science. The only people who I'm pissing off are those who have their heads in the ground and refuse to consider views that contradict their own

Edited January 9, 2017 by nestor

[DopamineSick]

18 minutes ago, nestor said:

I'm here because this forum specializess in mental illness and has resources that help me deal with my own. What have I said that leads you to the conclusion that I don't believe mental illness is real? What I don't believe is that safe spaces are a good remedy for them.

You say my argument is unsupported, but I just supported it with my own experience. You on the other hand say your position is supported by facts and science, but I don't see you showing me any fact or science. The only people who I'm pissing off are those who have their heads in the ground and refuse to consider views that contradict their own

You know what? You're right. I don't even know what the hell your argument is in the first place. You make blanket, negative generalizations about "safe spaces" and yet, here you are in one of those "safe spaces" criticizing "safe spaces"? I'm confused.

By the way, am I not bootstrappy enough for you because I get Medicaid? Are you one of those?

[Flash]

On 1/8/2017 at 9:39 AM, nestor said:

Come now, don't let your insecurity in your beliefs cause you to become intellectually dishonest. I challenged all of your points, I elaborated my case in regards to copyright, I refuted your knee-jerk assumption that I hated Obama because of his race, and I also explained the meaning behind my name.

 

I understand that his failures on domestic issues were mostly due to Republican obstruction, but he could have tried harder to force through the Public Option, when there was still a Democrat majority in the Senate. But he did have much more leverage over foreign policy, especially in regard to Libya where the was strong bipartisan opposition to the war, where he could have told the French and Italians to back off and tried force and even handed armistice, but instead he opted for yet another regime change. He also had control over supporting the Syrian rebels, he could have chose strict neutrality and tried to bring about an even armistice favoring neither side. In regards to Russia,  he should have tried to be more understanding behind the reasons of Russia's conquest of Crimea. Russia had gone through many devastating invasions by neighboring powers and feared being endangered once again by the encroachment of Nato in the former Soviet bloc and they needed to put a final stop to it before they became completely encircled.

 

In regards to people needing safe spaces, the first step to recovery is admitting your faults, not wallowing in them. I speak from experience, instead of taking action to fix them both my dad and I allowed me to wallow in my own weakness in my own safe space and look what I've become. You chastise me for being a jerk for trying to explain the reasons behind my use of language, but you are being one by trivializing my mental issues, which is especially ironic as this is supposed to be a forum for understanding such issues. You don't realize how much mental torment I'm in, since Christmas eve I've only left the house twice, in the dead of night to a store right by me, I've stayed in my own safe space for so long that it's starting to collapse in on me, I can't even step outside or type on my tablet without being assaulted by intrusive thoughts that are like needles in my flesh and I need drugs to bring some relief. I don't exaggerate when I say this is hell on earth, if this were a dream and I woke up back to how I was, this undoubtedly would be the worst nightmare ever. The only way I can deal with it is by retreating further into a mentally numb inner safe space. And this is all because of my own weakness, this whole thing could have been prevented if I had the willpower and determination to take the actions necessary, and even after it had begun I could have stopped it if I took the necessary actions and I will continue to be tormented until I take the necessary actions. My contempt for weakness is not illogical and I don't look down upon those who suffer from it, because I am one of those people, what I truly hate is attempting to exacerbate such weakness by discouraging those from trying to overcome it through keeping them locked in a fragile safe space. I know first hand the tragedy that results from such actions. But you seem like you don't want listen, you seem to refuse the possibility that there are deeper meanings to my words outside of your preconceived notions, which are so fragile that you have to dismiss any challenge to them as blather.

The public option was killed by joe Lieberman and max baucus. IMO, everyone should have been allowed to buy Medicare. But it will never happen during my lifetime now. I may not have insurance next month. I have no idea what's going to happen. 

[DopamineSick]

9 minutes ago, Flash said:

The public option was killed by joe Lieberman and max baucus. IMO, everyone should have been allowed to buy Medicare. But it will never happen during my lifetime now. I may not have insurance next month. I have no idea what's going to happen. 

I'm very concerned about this. I have no idea what's going to happen now. I try not to watch the news because this issue is causing me legitimate anxiety. I can't lose my insurance. 

 

 

[nestor]

Dopaminestick do you even bother to read my posts? I criticize the idea of bootstrapping being expected for everyone.

[DopamineSick]

10 minutes ago, nestor said:

Dopaminestick do you even bother to read my posts? I criticize the idea of bootstrapping being expected for everyone.

I didn't read the entire thread word for word as I was short on patience yesterday. I may have misinterpreted you, I will admit that. So now I'm just confused and I will show myself the door.

[nestor]

You don't need to worry about me going after you Medicaid, my family could benefit greatly from getting on it, if only my dad would make an effort to get us on it, at least for my mom. I have a cjamnce this weekend to talk to my psychiatrist about getting on it, although I could have been on it for years if I hadn't been so stupid and lazy.

[DopamineSick]

16 minutes ago, nestor said:

You don't need to worry about me going after you Medicaid, my family could benefit greatly from getting on it, if only my dad would make an effort to get us on it, at least for my mom. I have a cjamnce this weekend to talk to my psychiatrist about getting on it, although I could have been on it for years if I hadn't been so stupid and lazy.

Although I don't know the exact details of your situation, you may be able to apply on your own behalf (as long as you're not claimed as a "dependent" by your family), so you don't have to wait for your dad. You can do everything online. It might not be a bad idea to get an application in now. That way, you won't have to wait extra long in case there's a wave of reapplications. 

[DopamineSick]

The Senate held a late night session last night in an effort to repeal the ACA. This is fucked. 

[tired tammy]

Now is the time to contact by phone and email your state's representatives that you do NOT want them to take away ACA. This is important for them to be concerned about losing their jobs over this! As imperfect as this may see to a lot of people, losing Medicare and possibly Medicaid too cannot happen! Let's work to improve what we have, rather than gutting and privatizing everything!

Rise up!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/anxious-lawmakers-to-gop-leaders-whats-the-plan-to-replace-obamacare/2017/01/12/bdbea6bc-d8e1-11e6-9a36-1d296534b31e_story.html?utm_term=.383341244f0e

[CherryBlossom]

Well on a different note.

He is in the house now and let's see what happens. I give him a year time before I judge him... but I think he has a poor sense of time because he is promising way too much for a 4 year period. 

I don't trust him because he has no credentials, has a boat load of bankruptcy which is thrown onto the lower classes, and he put a lot of odd people in position that have no prior experience or education in. But, we are in a climate where people don't want to deal with another politician. 

But, we'll see what happens.....I pray he is actually better than I suspect because if he isn't I will need some heavy tranquilizers lol. 

He has back pedal some stuff he said during his running. 

Heard he signed some laws just recently, but I have no clue what those laws really were. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by CherryBlossom

[melissaw72]

7 hours ago, CherryBlossom said:

I don't trust him because he has no credentials, has a boat load of bankruptcy which is thrown onto the lower classes, and he put a lot of odd people in position that have no prior experience or education in. But, we are in a climate where people don't want to deal with another politician. 

I agree with you on all of this.  Especially the 3rd bolded words, him putting a lot of people that have no prior experience in positions or education in on his staff.

I'll give him time too.  I also agree that a year is a reasonable time-frame, but I think in 6 months people will start to see how things are going and recognize a trend or a pattern of how he is dealing with things.

 

[melissaw72]

7 hours ago, CherryBlossom said:

He has back pedal some stuff he said during his running. 

I agree.

 

7 hours ago, CherryBlossom said:

Heard he signed some laws just recently, but I have no clue what those laws really were. 

Apparently Trump has signed a bunch of executive orders right off the top.

Here is what the president has signed for already:

https://mic.com/articles/166291/donald-trump-s-executive-orders-here-s-what-the-president-has-signed-so-far#.dG4JLZwMt

 

Everything the Trump administration has done so far:

http://fox59.com/2017/01/23/a-list-of-everything-the-trump-administration-has-done-so-far/

 

 

[CrazyRedhead]

I predict in about 6 months to a year, a LOT of people who voted for Trump are going to be scraping those campaign bumper stickers off their vehicles under cover of night......

At least scraper sales will go up, right?

[Flash]

I hope Gwyneth Paltrow stuffs a jade egg up his ass. 

[DopamineSick]

18 hours ago, Flash said:

I hope Gwyneth Paltrow stuffs a jade egg up his ass. 

I had no idea what you were talking about, so I googled Gwyneth Paltrow and....lol! 

[melissaw72]

2 hours ago, DopamineSick said:

I had no idea what you were talking about, so I googled Gwyneth Paltrow and....lol! 

I didn't either until now ... LOL