sleep

[daemongrrl]

Okay, I was in a solid depression for like a week. Dismal. More than a week? Now I've been up for like a week. Which SUCKS. Because I just get really irritable and decide that everything sucks STILL; I just have a lot more energy to focus on it. I get a lot of stuff done, but it doesn't always look as good as it's supposed to.

Issue: sleep. What's that? I don't sleep when I'm depressed, not much. I stay up and stay up and stay up. Until I can't anymore, and then I sleep for like 14 hours straight. However, I couldn't this time because we were too busy the day that I needed to do that. So I was very grumpy the next day when I could only get like 6 hours in.

And then I went hyper. And largely haven't slept yet.

Is there anything to be done for this? It's not that I really want the sleep...I just feel that I ought to sleep. I'm never really any worse for it the next day; in fact, I tend to be highly productive. A little foggy, but I'm always that.

But, seriously, I'm getting like .5-4 hours per night for like going on three weeks now. It can't be good for me. Are there any non-medical ideas?

[Min]

drink a calming tea (like tazo's 'calm' tea) or eat/drink milk or tuna (they contain trytophan which induces sleep).  damn i was given a whole worksheet at the hospital and if i can find it, i'll type it up for you.

also try not to do anything in the room you use for sleep other than sleep or sexual activity.

also limit your caffeine, tobacco, and alcohol intake.  they disturb sleep even if you can't tell.

[Dweii]

I'm not a doctor so don't take this too seriously. But it sounds as if you're experiencing a mixed state rather than mania/hypomania. That can really mess with your sleep, as can mania. This thread has a good description of mixed states. It can be worth looking up, because the treatment differs from regular mania a bit, I think.

[synthetic]

Is there anything to be done for this? It's not that I really want the sleep...I just feel that I ought to sleep. I'm never really any worse for it the next day; in fact, I tend to be highly productive. A little foggy, but I'm always that.

But, seriously, I'm getting like .5-4 hours per night for like going on three weeks now. It can't be good for me. Are there any non-medical ideas?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For me, not sleeping always makes things worse.  The fact that you don't feel like you need the sleep would indicate that you are probably experiencing either straight mania or, as Helena suggested, a mixed state.  When I get in that state, the only thing that will help me sleep is medical intervention.  Do you have any meds that would help with sleep such as an AP or a benzo?  Even if you do, it would probably be a good idea to let your pdoc know you are having problems sleeping.  Maybe can adjust your meds to help. 

[ncc1701]

Heya daemongrrl,

Well, like they are saying.

It sounds like a mixed to me, which is what I get, and I *know* it's weird.  You have it in your head that, holy crap, do you need sleep or what, but your body/brain/whatever is awake.  And feels fine.

I haven't figured it out yet, and am reluctant to take sleep meds, b/c I want to learn to manage it.  At least in that first few days, but after that, I think meds are crucial.

In that first few days, calm activities, herbal teas, warm milk, low light, all the rest.

*May* help stave off that up period.

After that first few days, pretty much down to meds for me, although I and my docs don't want them, but a little zopiclone (Imovane) or whatever they have in the States (non-benzo sedatives) helps.

Never tried a benzo, but they are useful for short-term.

If it gets nasty, antipsychotics or bumped-up mood stabilizers are more useful.

Hope things level out for you.

--ncc--

[celestia]

Heya daemongrrl,

Well, like they are saying.

It sounds like a mixed to me, which is what I get, and I *know* it's weird.  You have it in your head that, holy crap, do you need sleep or what, but your body/brain/whatever is awake.  And feels fine.

I haven't figured it out yet, and am reluctant to take sleep meds, b/c I want to learn to manage it.  At least in that first few days, but after that, I think meds are crucial.

In that first few days, calm activities, herbal teas, warm milk, low light, all the rest.

*May* help stave off that up period.

After that first few days, pretty much down to meds for me, although I and my docs don't want them, but a little zopiclone (Imovane) or whatever they have in the States (non-benzo sedatives) helps.

Never tried a benzo, but they are useful for short-term.

If it gets nasty, antipsychotics or bumped-up mood stabilizers are more useful.

Hope things level out for you.

--ncc--

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you can stay away from benzos, with all due respect NCC <since I know you are more than qualified to make that comment> but I don't sleep well either. I got really habituated to ativan over the 4-5 years hubby was dying and then I was trying to live again. I switched over to Klonopin which many board users have terrible horror stories of, but I like the long acting properties of it. It doesn't help me sleep like Ativan did.

I haven't slept in over 50 hours. I am seeing swirly smoky apparition type things in my room right now that look kind of like gauzy curtains. It's not making me anxious, but I'm also not going anywhere, but to bed as soon as the sun sets if not sooner because eventually we will sleep.

My dad is a bit on the a-hole side, and right after Bradley died so many physiological things happened,  Insomnia being one. He told me "no one ever died from a lack of sleep." This is why I whore myself for good insurance for me and he kiddos so I can pay good, compassionate people to help me thru. I feel very uncomfortable at night. I mentioned it on another thread. I'm almost phobic about going to bed. To the point I sleep on my couch. Hey, what ever works, right? A month ago I didn't have a couch. AFter Bradley died and I was so numb on the ativan, I selpt ALL the time. I missed 4 years of my life. I'm not regretting. But I guess what I'm saying is, and this is to me, not you guys, I'm so amazed that I'm eve awake instead of dead that's how close my MDD took me in JUne.

Blah, blah....my hero and personal higher power Henry Rollins is a rock star and poet. He has this rap called the "journals of sleep dep." It reminds me when the kids were babies.

I don't have a job now because I have some disabling medical conditions, so obviously I'm a lot more chilled out about sleep than if I had a job.

But when I worked I hated it so much sleeping was not a problem.

[revlow]

ncc:

A little OT, but I was curious about zopiclone (Imovane). As you said, it's not available in the States yet (guess this problem goes both ways, eh? ). Read several things on it; this was short and sweet: http://remedyfind.com/rm-1859-Imovane.asp. Sounds like an interesting med. I don't know if we have anything in this category (a novel chemical class called cyclopyrrolones) yet in the States. This is more thorough: http://www.drugs.com/cons/Imovane.html

Oh, I just found this: http://www.uspharmacist.com/index.asp?page...151/default.htm -- includes this passage: "The cyclopyrrolone derivatives, including zopiclone and its enantiomer eszopiclone, are not receptor subtype-specific." Eszopiclone is Lunesta. Bummer. I can't take Lunesta. I'm one of the 17% (in 2 mg; 34% in 3 mg) who get unpleasant taste as an SE. By "unpleasant taste" I mean a toxic waste dump, horrid taste. So bad that it would actually wake me up! (Sort of defeats the purpose.) And I'd have the disgusting taste the rest on the entire next day. Puke.

Oh, well.

</end of threadjack>

[revlow]

I'm almost phobic about going to bed. To the point I sleep on my couch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow. I can so relate. I did the couch bit for years.

I think my phobia about sleep goes back to when I was a little girl. My mom gave me sleep meds from the time I was very young. Not all the time, but enough. And my body would fight it off in some way, just scared me and felt unnatural. (My mom is MI, was very young, in a lousy marriage, and frankly just didn't have the tools. And -- though we didn't know it at the time -- was dealing with a BP kid, me. I don't blame her, she was doing the best she knew at the time.)

Anyway, one trick I developed years ago: when I'm in bed, I'll say to myself "I am giving myself the gift of sleep." Doesn't always help, but it does sometimes. And basically it puts me in the right mindset, whether or not it alone does the trick.

[daemongrrl]

I quick addict; I'm addicted to nicotine and I've never even smoked...every day is like quitting smoking for me because I addicted to it without ever having to smoke it. So I'd like to steer clear of sleep meds as much as possible. I don't currently have any disasterous vices, and am trying to keep it that way....

I think the mania thing might make sense; more mixed, perhaps? I don't know. I HATE SLEEPING! Otherwise, I'd really dig the idea of "gift of sleep." My partner tries to convince me of that. I sleep better on the floor than in a bed, and best on hard floors, like the kitchen or bathroom. I'll start dozing if I take a bath...decide to go to bed...and my eyes blitz open and I start running my engine again. But I don't feel SCARED this go around, like I usually do. Just buzzing. I have a perpetual exhaustion headache, but I've had those so much, it feels like just life.

I think, too, lots of stuff going on in my life that's scary/new/etc., so harder to sleep. I feel like a kid at Christmas, except my Christmas is more like a walkabout.

The ideas so far have helped; I pulled off over three hours of sleep last night; a new record.

Thank you!!!

[revlow]

Yippee!

...and I start running my engine again

Boy I relate.

[groovyone]

Imovane and Lunesta are similar structurally.  My chemistry sucks big time but the only difference is that Lunesta has an extra H, O and CH3 molecule.  Now what that means in efficacy/side effects/tolerance etc... *true difference* between the drugs? I'm not sure.  I just wonder because of the next to nothing name change Zopiclone vs. Eszopiclone.  Does that mean...not much difference between the two drugs?

Is there a pharmacologist in the house? Heh.

Karen

[ncc1701]

Heya threadjackers,

Imovane is zopiclone.

Lunesta (as I just learned) is eszopliclone.

This difference means *very little.*

A group of molecules is made up of "left-handed" and "right-handed" molecules that are basically the same, but are mirror images of each other.

"Usual" zopiclone has half left-handed and half right-handed molecules in it.

"Es"zopiclone has only ... umm ... one of those.  I want to say left-handed.

Basically, they're the same stuff.

The "Es" variety just cuts out the inactive half of it.

So, as I did *not* know, Imovane and Lunesta are the same.

Yo threadjack.

--ncc--

[LikeMinded]

Was about to say what ncc1701 just said. 

For example, Lexapro (escitalopram) is the R-"enantiomer" (mirror image) found in the L+R "racemic" (=equal) enantiomer mixture known as Celexa (citalopram).  So the racemic mixture is basically equal portions of the two mirror images of the same compound, the same thing seen in Lunesta/zopiclone. 

Generally, when drugs like these are synthesized in the lab, they've got a nasty habit of forming racemic mixtures of both enantiomers (almost all pill-drugs have this issue), since the simple chemicals used in the reactions can't tell the difference between right and left handed (literally). 

Au contraire, our bodies are funny this way: Many receptors (made out of ridiculously complex protein) recognize one enantiomer and not the other.  Thus one enantiomer is active, and the other one isn't (or may even cause undesired side effects!).  This tends to be bizarre to most pure chemists, as otherwise, distinguishing (needless to say separating!) one enantiomer from the other is a Titanic process.

Pharmas generally tend to attempt separating the two when they feel their patent on the mixture med is going to be threatened.  Due to some FDA loophole (probably due to the difficulty of separation), one enantiomer alone will carry a separate patent from the racemic mixture of both entantiomers. 

Most recently, the drug Nexium was created from Prilosec this way, and Cephalon is looking at separating modafinil (Provigil) to create a new patent.

Wow, that was some serious f#(@*(*#ing dorkage.

Now back to the topic at hand, ending this threadjack ncc1701 and I created, once in for all!

My pdoc from Indiana put me on Trazodone 150mg QD/night for sleep.  It worked and still works wonders for me.  However, many tend to get nasty, nasty hangovers from it (perhaps my experiences with alcohol have made me more tolerant of that effect :-)).  It's purported to have a very mild SSRI effect, but also blocks the 5HT3 receptor, which is responsible in some people for anxiety... thus it might be an anxiolytic and assist with sleep. 

And by the way, if you do ever plan on getting up to 150mg Trazodone, never, never, EVER, get 30x150mg pills for one month's supply.  Those things are absolute horse pills, uncoated at that.  With my luck, they go down exactly to my gag reflex site, and get jammed there, oozing their salty bitter efflux and leaving me wretching to all holy Hell.  I recommend getting 90x50mg instead each month.  Easier to titrate dose, pills are way smaller, and for some God-forsaken reason, they're lightly coated!

Another rec, which has worked for my mother (she claims), is eucalyptus oil.  It costs about US $5-10 at a nutrition store and a bottle will last you a couple months.  Mom puts a few drops on her pillowcase, near where her nose will be, and claims that it makes her fall asleep as if she were hit on the back of her head with a hammer.  She's not been able to wake up in the past after using too much of it, on occasion.

Then again, this is the same woman who got socked on DayQuil after I gave it to her, telling her it was NyQuil, so don't apply any generalizations.....

And an important disclaimer.  I'm not a doctor, I have no formal training in psychopharmacology, I've just dealt with a lot of MI and sleep problems.  And I have a bachelor's degree in Molecular Biology.  And a minor in Psychology.  And my GPA-inflating degree, a BA in German.  That is all.

[Loon-A-TiK]

Quitting Paxil put me squarely in the middle of a mixed episode, the worst of the worst. My thoughts fly but they are negative...

I can't sleep either.

I'm going to talk to the pdoc about a script for a couple of weeks of Ambien or something. If I can kick Paxil then a short stint of Ambien should be fine...

Enough about me...

Rules to sleep by-

Do not eat or exercise, smoke, or consume caffeine for at least 2 hours before bed.

Do not use your room where you sleep/get it on for anything other than sleeping and getting it on

Take a nice warm bath and let your mind rest, and see the brown "dirty" energy coming out and the good "golden" energy coming in. Cheesy perhaps, but I like that one.

Always feel comforted and tell someone, even your cat, that you love them.

-------best wishes and brightest blessings, loon-----------

[LikeMinded]

Do not use your room where you sleep/get it on for anything other than sleeping and getting it on

Please define this 'getting it on' thing.  As an aspie, I'm grossly unfamiliar with it.

Always feel comforted and tell someone, even your cat, that you love them.

I'm allergic to cats. At least I have my modal fabric beechthread sheets, which are soft and cozy (I recommend them for all MIs, and all in need of comfort, btw... available at any Bed Bath & Beyond)

[groovyone]

/threadjack

I wish my chemistry was better...

My anatomy is good...bio/physiology not too shabby but chemistry?

:eyes glaze over:

/end threadjack

Karen

Edited to add: And what is up with MATH?!?! 2+2=an elephant.

[LikeMinded]

Edited to add: And what is up with MATH?!?! 2+2=an elephant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2+2 = elephant, but only for sufficiently pachydermal values of 2.

[groovyone]

Edited to add: And what is up with MATH?!?! 2+2=an elephant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2+2 = elephant, but only for sufficiently pachydermal values of 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*grin*

Just don't dare get into physics...didn't take one class ever.

Karen