Tapering Off Klonopin Questions

[Keffer9522]

Okay so i have been taking 2.5mg of klonopin every day for the past 18 months. It has reached a point where it no longer helps my anxiety and tension. I am prescribed 1mg 3 times a day. I never took the full 3mg though just 2.5mg. So i have read all the horror stories and have done all the research. I know that slow and steady is the key. My question is this. Is there a too slow? I know there is a too fast. So i started my taper in FEB. I cut down .25 at the beginning of each month. So now its march and i am stable on 2mg. I know some people go a lot faster like .25 every week or every 2 weeks but again my doc is cool about letting me take it slow and i really don't want to feel the withdraw horror i have read about. So at this rate it will take me another 8-9 months to taper off all the way. I know from what i have read the last .50 or so is the hardest and i can slow even further once i have reached that point if i need to. I just wanted some input, opinions on my plan Exc.... 

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Keffer9522
Addition

[melissaw72]

Welcome to CB!

I'm glad you are taking it slow with the taper of klonopin.  I did it that way also until we found my "sweet spot" where it worked and didn't need to be increased/decreased.  I tried doing it faster, and it was a nightmare for me.  So I think tapering slow is a good idea.

6 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

So i have read all the horror stories and have done all the research.

Try not to read and believe everything you read about meds on the internet ... more than likely (and IMO) there are more horror stories out there than good ones.  IME, I haven't seen many good stories about any med out there.  It is more bad than good. 

6 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

My question is this. Is there a too slow?

IMO, no, there isn't a "too slow" to taper off.

[Keffer9522]

thanks for your reply. I want to get off totally and then just take a smaller dose as needed. Its hard when you suffer from anxiety to not get nervous as hell when you read all this crap and watch videos of people that cant get off .25mg. I suppose everyone is different and there are a lot of factors that go into it. Dose and duration of use EXC. I will keep updating as i progress. Oh and a question for you melissaw72. How much were you taking at your highest point and for how long?

[melissaw72]

9 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

thanks for your reply. I want to get off totally and then just take a smaller dose as needed. Its hard when you suffer from anxiety to not get nervous as hell when you read all this crap and watch videos of people that cant get off .25mg. I suppose everyone is different and there are a lot of factors that go into it. Dose and duration of use EXC. I will keep updating as i progress. Oh and a question for you melissaw72. How much were you taking at your highest point and for how long?

My highest dose of Klonopin was 8 mg/day.  So it took a long time to get back to a lower level.

[Keffer9522]

WOW that's a pretty big dose. I'm 6'0 240 and 3mg had me like a zombie. How slow did you taper?

[melissaw72]

4 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

WOW that's a pretty big dose. I'm 6'0 240 and 3mg had me like a zombie. How slow did you taper?

I am 5'7 and was about 120 at the time (now much bigger).  In the beginning I dropped to 5-6 mg right off the bat.  Then in general, it became 2 steps forward, one step back at going down 0.25 every week or 2, for months. 

The withdrawal was the worst towards the end.  Then I was going down by 0.125 mg/week for awhile (don't remember how long it took other than it felt like it was taking forever).  Right now I am on 0.5 mg/twice a day, which is the dose I don't need to go up or down on for it to work.

Idk if this means anything, but I am on klonopin ODT (the pills you put under your tongue and they dissolve almost immediately).  I think they help a LOT better than the regular klonopin pills.

[notloki]

The problem with Zyprexa is it commonly causes weight gain and metabolic syndrome. It's great taken PRN or for short periods, though.

[Keffer9522]

I don't know if I will need to replace the klonopin with something else yet. I hope not. I am starting Celexa this week. Also going to a Psychiatrist is fine and all but pills just mask the problem. I do understand some people have chemical imbalances and need medication and that's all good. But I also started seeing a Psychologist a few weeks ago and I think that will help too. There should always be the added element of therapy in any mental treatment.

[melissaw72]

3 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

I don't know if I will need to replace the klonopin with something else yet. I hope not. I am starting Celexa this week. Also going to a Psychiatrist is fine and all but pills just mask the problem. I do understand some people have chemical imbalances and need medication and that's all good. But I also started seeing a Psychologist a few weeks ago and I think that will help too. There should always be the added element of therapy in any mental treatment.

IMO Sometimes people need to be on meds first, so the problem can be addressed.

ie if someone is delusional, there is no way (IME) that problem could be addressed unless they were on medication first to get the person back on track.  For me, when I was delusional (with past pdoc), and off meds, there was no way I could have been treated because my thoughts were all messed up and I wasn't always cooperative, also acting out.  It just wouldn't have worked.  Once I was on meds again though with current pdoc now, I was more of myself IRL, calmed down, less delusions, and pdoc and I were then able to address the problem/s. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by melissaw72

[Keffer9522]

Oh I'm not bashing Psychiatrists it's just they don't really talk to you. They just want to medicate. There should be a 50/50 setup. Meds+therapy should be more of the norm. Seems like the 2 I've seen just want to be like here take these pills and it will fix everything. When in reality anyone with a mental issue would benefit from someone to talk to and give them skills to deal with their issues along with medical treatment if needed. For example my current doc. I try to talk to her like about my taper and she just blows it off. Where my therapist is like don't worry you will be okay. I feel better walking out of his office and that goes a long way. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Keffer9522

[notloki]

If you see psychiatrists you will get pills because they are medical doctors so they approach things from the medical viewpoint. Their treatments are largely going to be meds. If you want to talk therapists, psychologists, and social workers are who you usually go to. Decades ago it was more common for psychiatrists to offer psychotherapy.

[melissaw72]

4 hours ago, notloki said:

If you see psychiatrists you will get pills because they are medical doctors so they approach things from the medical viewpoint. Their treatments are largely going to be meds. If you want to talk therapists, psychologists, and social workers are who you usually go to. Decades ago it was more common for psychiatrists to offer psychotherapy.

All the pdocs I've ever had did the therapy too.  But I agree about the meds being the answer to most things.

 

5 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

Oh I'm not bashing Psychiatrists it's just they don't really talk to you. They just want to medicate. There should be a 50/50 setup. Meds+therapy should be more of the norm. Seems like the 2 I've seen just want to be like here take these pills and it will fix everything. When in reality anyone with a mental issue would benefit from someone to talk to and give them skills to deal with their issues along with medical treatment if needed. For example my current doc. I try to talk to her like about my taper and she just blows it off. Where my therapist is like don't worry you will be okay. I feel better walking out of his office and that goes a long way. 

I agree about pdocs wanting to medicate.  BTDT, even with current pdoc.  He does talk though also, so it isn't all meds.  But a good majority of the time the answer is, "well lets take a look at your meds ..." even if I say I am sad about something or whatever (something anyone would say ... MI or not).  But for most of the time, the first thing looked at are the meds.

[melissaw72]

2 hours ago, Dphxa said:

I wish my current pdoc was more like that.  It seems like all she wants to do is "check in" and tell me why I don't need med changes.

They are trying to get me out in the community more right now.  They don't seem to understand that I don't want to be out in the community when my medicine isn't working right.

Idk how pdocs can get an idea of how we are doing with only a 'check-in.'  Maybe if the tdoc and pdoc were in close contact it might be different.  But otherwise I don't see how it would work.

My pdoc used to be a 'check-in' DR also, focusing on meds only ... but as time went on he realized he wanted to know more about how a person was because how can you make a decision in 15 minutes, right?  So he started to add therapy to the appt, making the appt times longer than the original 10-15 minutes, to now 30 minutes (but that time almost always goes to 40 minutes, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter ... depending what is going on in life at the time.  I see him weekly so we are usually up-to-date with everything unless something new comes up or like last appt (lasted an hour), I was explaining a lot about when I was delusional (more in detail), and I walked out of there with him saying, "I feel like I just talked to a whole other person."  Because he'd never known about these details.

(bold) Oh man, I understand what you mean by pdoc trying to get you out in the community more.  One of my least favorite subjects.

My pdoc has been trying to do the same thing!  And it is stressing me out every time he brings it up.  Fortunately though he has started to back off a little about it.  I told him I am less stressed at home by myself.  And the more i am out in the community (or just going for a walk) the more stressed I get and it is not worth the stress of leaving.  Plus add to that the agoraphobia and anxiety, and the GI issues, creating the perfect storm for anything to happen.  The last thing I want is to become delusional and hallucinate more.  And become sleep-deprived.  Stressed out. ETC.  So he has backed off.  I told him that I like to be alone and at home.  It isn't that I want to get more often but I cant ... I really honestly don't want to leave, and I am ok with that.  I am comfortable having things this way.  So he said as long as you are comfortable with that it is ok.  So I think the going-out-in-the-community thing will either end or really slow down.  I hope it ends for you too.

For me, whether my meds are working or not, I don't like being out in the community.  Not sure if when your meds are right you want to be in the community more? 

Anyway, I agree with you about the "check-in" appts are some of the time not helpful because the pdoc doesn't see the whole picture.

[melissaw72]

4 minutes ago, Dphxa said:

I don't know.  It's like they get stuck in a mode and then don't want to budge.

Yes!  I completely understand what you mean.  So annoying (to say the least).

I hope your meds/doses end up being the right combination. 

When you feel hypomanic ... do you like getting outside more? Or are you still wanting to be inside?

[Keffer9522]

2 hours ago, melissaw72 said:

Idk how pdocs can get an idea of how we are doing with only a 'check-in.'  Maybe if the tdoc and pdoc were in close contact it might be different.  But otherwise I don't see how it would work.

My pdoc used to be a 'check-in' DR also, focusing on meds only ... but as time went on he realized he wanted to know more about how a person was because how can you make a decision in 15 minutes, right?  So he started to add therapy to the appt, making the appt times longer than the original 10-15 minutes, to now 30 minutes (but that time almost always goes to 40 minutes, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter ... depending what is going on in life at the time.  I see him weekly so we are usually up-to-date with everything unless something new comes up or like last appt (lasted an hour), I was explaining a lot about when I was delusional (more in detail), and I walked out of there with him saying, "I feel like I just talked to a whole other person."  Because he'd never known about these details.

(bold) Oh man, I understand what you mean by pdoc trying to get you out in the community more.  One of my least favorite subjects.

My pdoc has been trying to do the same thing!  And it is stressing me out every time he brings it up.  Fortunately though he has started to back off a little about it.  I told him I am less stressed at home by myself.  And the more i am out in the community (or just going for a walk) the more stressed I get and it is not worth the stress of leaving.  Plus add to that the agoraphobia and anxiety, and the GI issues, creating the perfect storm for anything to happen.  The last thing I want is to become delusional and hallucinate more.  And become sleep-deprived.  Stressed out. ETC.  So he has backed off.  I told him that I like to be alone and at home.  It isn't that I want to get more often but I cant ... I really honestly don't want to leave, and I am ok with that.  I am comfortable having things this way.  So he said as long as you are comfortable with that it is ok.  So I think the going-out-in-the-community thing will either end or really slow down.  I hope it ends for you too.

For me, whether my meds are working or not, I don't like being out in the community.  Not sure if when your meds are right you want to be in the community more? 

Anyway, I agree with you about the "check-in" appts are some of the time not helpful because the pdoc doesn't see the whole picture.

I agree. Both Psychiatrists I have seen the last 4 years are like go in and talk to the nurse for 10 min then talk to them for a few minutes throw some prescriptions at you and say have a nice day. Most places don't offer counseling as well at least not in Ohio where I am. That's why I found a Psychologist. Having the proper attitude and mind-set is really important as well. But I deal with mostly anxiety not so much depression. But my anxiety is all day and never lets up. The klonopin is the only thing that really helped. But I never had counseling either so we will see how it goes. Knowing what I know now about klonopin I have to kick this crap. The longer I'm on it the harder it will be to quit and the more damage I do to my brain. 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Keffer9522

[melissaw72]

1 hour ago, Dphxa said:

So do I thanks.

For some reason my pdoc said they think adding Lamictal is too much and that I'm on too many different medicines.  Lamictal is often prescribed along with an SSRI/SNRI and AP.  Plus I need the trazodone for sleep, so I don't know where they are coming from.

When I'm really hypomanic, I will go to the store by myself and everything.  Sometimes I will just go out driving to explore some place I saw on the map or while I was in the car.

It generally isn't really a social thing, though.  The asperger syndrome limits what I can do socially.

Why add the lamictal?

I don't have asperger syndrome, but I can empathize with the not doing well in social things/situations either, especially when talking constantly to people. It is very draining, hypo or not, and I can't wait to get home right when I get there.

For me the agoraphobia and social anxiety is what make it hard to go out (and then talk to people), in general.  I used to be able to walk to the store, CVS, and walk long distances to other places (I can't drive).  Now things are totally a 180 and aside from my strength and stamina decreased, it is just very hard to get out.  Sometimes I think that if I had someone to "push" me and go with them somewhere I would be ok.  Kind of like just having someone to do something with.  Unfortunately there isn't anyone around to do that with.

[melissaw72]

1 hour ago, Keffer9522 said:

Knowing what I know now about klonopin I have to kick this crap. The longer I'm on it the harder it will be to quit and the more damage I do to my brain. 

Just make sure you don't stop klonopin cold turkey.  IME you will be in hell.  For me, I tapered off very slowly once I got down to 4-5 mg.  Otherwise I couldn't tolerate the withdrawal effects. YMMV though. 

And I'm sure you know this, but make sure your DR knows what you are doing.  From experience pdocs and all other DRs hate it when you go off a med without them knowing about it.  And then comes the not trusting you with meds.  BTDT.  And it really sucks.

[Keffer9522]

8 hours ago, melissaw72 said:

Just make sure you don't stop klonopin cold turkey.  IME you will be in hell.  For me, I tapered off very slowly once I got down to 4-5 mg.  Otherwise I couldn't tolerate the withdrawal effects. YMMV though. 

And I'm sure you know this, but make sure your DR knows what you are doing.  From experience pdocs and all other DRs hate it when you go off a med without them knowing about it.  And then comes the not trusting you with meds.  BTDT.  And it really sucks.

Oh i know believe me i did a lot or research before coming up with my own taper schedule. I thought the ashton method was to fast. So like i said i was on 2.5mg and in the past 2 months have tapered to 2mg. From what i have read i am doing it rather slow. Only tapering .25mg every month. And the last few months of my taper if i really feel the need i can slow to .125mg. We will see how it goes. But i thing allowing 30 days in between cuts should be plenty of time allow my body to get use the the lower dose and hopefully minimize withdraw symptoms. 

[melissaw72]

10 minutes ago, Keffer9522 said:

But i thing allowing 30 days in between cuts should be plenty of time allow my body to get use the the lower dose and hopefully minimize withdraw symptoms. 

I totally agree. 

11 minutes ago, Keffer9522 said:

From what i have read i am doing it rather slow.

IMO, better slow than too fast.

[Keffer9522]

I'm glad you approve. It's nice to have some feedback from someone who has experience with the stuff.

[melissaw72]

5 hours ago, Keffer9522 said:

I'm glad you approve. It's nice to have some feedback from someone who has experience with the stuff.

No problem, anytime

[notloki]

On 3/24/2017 at 8:28 PM, melissaw72 said:

All the pdocs I've ever had did the therapy too.  But I agree about the meds being the answer to most things.

 

None of mine since 1985 have offered therapy.

[melissaw72]

2 minutes ago, notloki said:

None of mine since 1985 have offered therapy.

I'm glad I haven't had to have a separate tdoc at any point.  At one point I had only a tdoc, but no pdoc.  And when pdoc started therapy too, I left that tdoc.

[notloki]

I just don't think there is time to really learn psychology to the point of being able to do therapy. Med school is 8 years and a specialty 2 more. A masters level psychologist has a 6 year degree on just psychology.

[melissaw72]

2 hours ago, notloki said:

I just don't think there is time to really learn psychology to the point of being able to do therapy. Med school is 8 years and a specialty 2 more. A masters level psychologist has a 6 year degree on just psychology.

I'm sorry ... I don't understand what you mean ... can you please re-word it?

(reading comprehension isn't my best subject)

 

[crtclms]

Medical doctors go to school for 10+ years, but they need to know every subject there is about a person's entire body. On the other hand, a psychologist goes to graduate school, and spends all 6 years of it studying one subject.

[melissaw72]

Oh, ok ... thanks.  That makes sense.

[Alien Navel Cord]

I only have had 1 pdoc offer therapy as well as medication and he sucked. I've found therapy to be crap, and it doesn't help one bit. Only medications ever seem to help - without them I wouldn't be here to say this.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alien Navel Cord

[Keffer9522]

I think a balance of meds and therapy  help. A magic little pill is not always the answer. It's also good to have tools to deal with your issues whatever they may be. I have found it helpful with my anxiety and depression to have meds yes and also someone to talk to about my problems. 

[dtac]

I had a pdoc that played therapist as well. Problem was that he wasn't very good at either role. The distinction exists because either specialty requires a lot of training and experience to be good at it. My tdoc and pdoc both ask about the continuity of care from the other specialty, but they don't infringe on it. They each recognize their role in the entire process of treatment and they focus on what they can do to maintain or improve it. 

[KLPeter]

I have gone to two psychiatrists.  One only talked about politics and the other didn't talk.  They only thru meds at me. Now my Primary Care doc is trying to taper me off Klonopin.  Wasn't working for me. Difficult. 

[melissaw72]

5 hours ago, KLPeter said:

I have gone to two psychiatrists.  One only talked about politics and the other didn't talk.  They only thru meds at me. Now my Primary Care doc is trying to taper me off Klonopin.  Wasn't working for me. Difficult. 

I'm sorry you've had such bad luck with pdocs (psychiatrists)! 

IME, tapering off klonopin was very hard (when I did it years ago; am now back on it).  IMO is to do a very slow taper. 

I lowered the dose by 0.25 mg every 2 weeks (around that), and even that was too fast at times when I was tapering off.  It was like 2 steps forward, 1 step back ... I would decrease the dose by 0.25 mg, and everything would be going ok, but then I'd need to up the dose a little because of withdrawal side effects.  Then I would start to lower it again, etc.

I hope you try to find another pdoc, one you like who doesn't talk about politics or throw meds at you. 

[HAL9000]

On 3/24/2017 at 4:11 PM, Keffer9522 said:

Oh I'm not bashing Psychiatrists it's just they don't really talk to you. They just want to medicate. There should be a 50/50 setup. Meds+therapy should be more of the norm. Seems like the 2 I've seen just want to be like here take these pills and it will fix everything. When in reality anyone with a mental issue would benefit from someone to talk to and give them skills to deal with their issues along with medical treatment if needed. For example my current doc. I try to talk to her like about my taper and she just blows it off. Where my therapist is like don't worry you will be okay. I feel better walking out of his office and that goes a long way. 

I have my GDoc do the meds.  She is very scientific about it and follows up so I feel better since she knows me.  The PDoc she had me see to double check everything didn't do therapy and thought she was doing an excellent job except one time when he and I agreed Valium was a better choice then Xanax.   He said the short acting strong affect made it a popular drug to abuse and that depending on it was less likely since it didn't last very long.   I guess just saying he felt it was the "worst" says enough.   Anyway I saw a PDoc before him and she got really uptight about me assuming she did therapy.  She was just there to write prescriptions.   So you walk in and have a DX - her job was to be the pill o matic.  I "fired" her.  *She was kinda nasty and who needs that regardless of what type of doctor you see?

[Keffer9522]

I agree these docs need to be more reassuring in how they conduct themselves. But update. I started out at 2.5mg of klonopin a day for the past almost 2 years. I have been cutting by .25mg a month. I am now down to 1.75mg a day. I shall continue my taper till I'm off. No bad effects so far. I think I'm going slow enough to minimize the discomfort. 

[melissaw72]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:06 AM, Keffer9522 said:

I agree these docs need to be more reassuring in how they conduct themselves. But update. I started out at 2.5mg of klonopin a day for the past almost 2 years. I have been cutting by .25mg a month. I am now down to 1.75mg a day. I shall continue my taper till I'm off. No bad effects so far. I think I'm going slow enough to minimize the discomfort. 

I'm glad that it is working out that way for you. 

[quiet storm]

So I've decided I want to get off clonazepam as I'm not sure I need it anymore. Stopped remeron last year and if I can get off the clonazepam it will be the first time I'm drug free in years.

I've been taking around 1mg a day for the last 4 years. So probably what most would consider a lower end dose, but on it for a good amount of time daily. I started a taper a few weeks ago. I went from 1mg down to .75mg and stayed there for a week. Then dropped down to .5mg for a week. No issues in that time. I decided I didn't want to drop down from .5 to .25 and decided to go to .375 which I am currently at and have been at for the last 6 days.

That might be a good thing because I have slept like absolute crap the last few nights(I've always taken it in the evening 7-8PM) and wondering if the taper has started to show some withdrawal symptoms. Insomnia(and the crappy side effects that come with it) is the only complaint I have at the moment. It's possible it might not even be related. I have never been the best sleeper. But I think it might be. Just feels like really light sleep. A lot of waking up. A lot of dreaming, which could be REM rebound considering Benzos suppress REM sleep. Not sure what I can do at this point I guess instead of plow forward and wait it out.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

Edited July 13, 2017 by quiet storm

[Keffer9522]

Well update for me. I was on 3mg a day for 2 years. In January I started my taper. Regardless of the amount you take if your on it for more than 6 months to a year I recommended a slow taper from all the research I have done. I am now down to 1.5mg so half of what I was taking. I have cut. .25mg a month every month. I wouldn't suggest going faster than that if you can. The longer you take tapering off of it the quicker your brain will get back to normal after your off it. Once I get down to .50mg I'll do .125mg a month till I'm done. They say the last half a MG or so is the hardest to get off. But good luck. So far I feel okay myself. A little adjustment after each cut but I'm good after a few days. 

[Savannah]

I was really fortunate. I went cold turkey after taking taking 2 mg/day for about 3 yrs.

[Keffer9522]

Holy cow. And what kind of symptoms did you go through. Also how long did it take to feel better after quitting? 

[Iceberg]

I went cold turkey from 4mg but later went back on on a PRN basis 

[Keffer9522]

Wow lucky you didn't have seizures 

[Iceberg]

Nah I'm on 400 of lamictal 

I'm super lucky I've really never had a bad withdrawal except when in the hospital and they took me off like 4 meds at once 

[Keffer9522]

What's that? 

[Iceberg]

What's lamictal?

[Wooster]

Lamictal, generic lamotrigine, is an anticonvulsant that also is used as a mood stabilizer.

[Iceberg]

 it I did a rapid taper of both lamictal AND Depakote AND trileptal at the same Time (started in hospital cuz my doc had me on so much shit no one knew what to do) and I still had no seizure issues. I think that that is one area where my weird brain actually helps me out 

[quiet storm]

 

7 hours ago, Iceberg said:

I went cold turkey from 4mg but later went back on on a PRN basis 

 

8 hours ago, Savannah said:

I was really fortunate. I went cold turkey after taking taking 2 mg/day for about 3 yrs.

Wow, so you two had no withdrawal symptoms at all? I know everyone is different but I'd suspect at least some kind of symptoms going cold turkey on those dosages. At any rate, good for you. I went back up to .5 mg last night and have decided to hold there for a bit. I slept a little better but not much. And that might have been from being exhausted more than the small increase in dosage. Again, I'm not sure it's the tapering that's causing the crappy sleep. At this point it could be psychological more than anything. I've always hated that about insomnia. You go thru a stretch of not sleeping well, and the anxiety over not sleeping just feeds it more.  Like a vicious circle.

[Savannah]

My pdoc was surprised that I had no withdrawal also.

[Keffer9522]

update. After reaching 1.5MG i just kind of stayed there and floundered. I have been feeling so good all summer i didnt want to change anything. But now im at the point to where it is no longer beneficial. So i started a few days ago and dropped down to 1.25MG. I still want to get off of it all together

[browri]

I keep a separate psychiatrist and psychologist as well because my psychiatrist doesn't do therapy. He's also my boyfriend's pdoc and my boyfriend has known him since he was very young. He said that he used to do therapy at one point but it was only on the weekends and it was self-pay at that point. He wouldn't do therapy if it went towards insurance because he would get so little for it.