Topamax

[Crazy Free Spirit]

The Last time I went to see my Psych Dr. she said she was going to add Topamax sometime in the near future in addition to my meds I currently take which are Abilify5mg and Lexapro10mg plus I also temporarily take singular10mg as well which I hope to not take for long once I find out about the sleep study I had done to see whether or not I need to have a cpap machine I hope I get approved for one so I can drop the singular anyhow my appetite is through the roof and to the sky I eat anything and everything that's not nailed done and my mom has noticed me getting bigger in my arms and waist and belly area and she's worried about that I am too and I am thinking of what my Dr. mentioned that would possibly help me control my appetite and lose some weight and that's Topamax I am not on it yet just wondering if it would help me to lose weight has anyone taken it for that reason? I am going to discuss my situation with my Dr the next time I see her and see if shell add Topamax in addition to my meds I already take. Abilify I think is bad for weight gain not so much Lexapro I don't think it causes weight gain too but I am fed up with being fat and getting fatter as I speak. I have been fat for way too long in other words and I don't want to die fat I want to be thinner and live longer not die because of something so trivial like my weight. I am worried more worried than I have ever been its not showing up on the scales that I have gained weight  but I feel it in my clothes my clothes feel tighter on me. I have some Alli I am thinking of trying in the mean time just to get my weight down some before going on Topamx what do you guys and girls think I should do finish the bottle of alli I have or wait to talk to my Dr. in a few months about trying Topamax?

[mikl_pls]

I don't think it would hurt to try the Alli, but just keep in mind you'll have to follow a low-fat diet with that, which has advantages and disadvantages (you'll have to increase protein intake, but you'll have to also increase carbohydrate intake).

I've taken Topamax numerous times in the past as a mood stabilizer and am currently on it as an anticonvulsant and a mood stabilizer. In the past, I was anywhere from 100-200 mg/day, the max dose being the same as I am on now. The first few times that I took it, it didn't help me with weight, but this time, however, it seems to be having a modest effect on my appetite, which will, in turn, have an effect on my weight. Supposedly women are more susceptible to the side effects of both Topamax and Zonegran, both of which affect appetite and cognition similarly (although personally, I had zero cognitive effects from Zonegran).

Some adjunctive medicines may also help with the Topamax. The make a medicine called Qsymia that is a combination of Topamax and Adipex (phentermine), but it's super expensive, so prescribing them separately would be cheaper, although if you have insurance, being prescribed a stimulant that is covered by your insurance (like Adderall or Dexedrine) would be even cheaper. Vyvanse is used for binge-eating disorder, not saying that you have this disorder, but it would be a stimulant that your pdoc would probably be more likely to prescribe for you for weight/appetite reasons in conjunction with Topamax; however, it will be more expensive since it will be on a higher tier (there is a copay coupon for it though). Also, metformin has helped me lose weight quite a lot too, but only in the higher doses. But perhaps if you take metformin in lower doses, it will help you out too. The only thing you need to watch out for is the interaction between Topamax and metformin that may lead to metabolic acidosis which could be pretty serious.

Even if you don't get prescribed anything in addition to Topamax, Topamax itself should be pretty good, if not for weight and appetite, then at least for impulse control. It usually helps people with impulsive eating, as you described "eating anything that isn't nailed down."

It's strange that you point out Abilify as the possible culprit for this, but then again everyone is different. I say this though because I've actually had good luck losing weight with Abilify. Lexapro, on the other hand, when I took it in high school, made me balloon up by 30 lb within a very short amount of time, then continue to gain 30 lb more over the period of a year, so a total of 60 lb, which I then had trouble losing after I stopped the med. I went from 170's lb to 200's lb, then to 230's lb, then by the time I graduated high school I was only able to get down to 200's lb, and I stopped it during the middle of my sophomore year or toward the beginning of my junior year (can't remember exactly).

Anywho, I wish the best of luck to you! I know how troublesome weight gain is. I've gained 110 lb over the past 2 years or so because of a combination of not staying on my diet (ketogenic diet) and psychiatric meds. Last year, Parnate put 50 lb on me in 3 months (which is odd because it's supposed to cause weight LOSS), and Anafranil put another 30 lb on me in a few months time. So far I've lost 30 lb of it. It CAN be done! You've got this! 

[Crazy Free Spirit]

thanks so much what you wrote is very informative and got me thinking Weight gain has also been a terrible side effect for me as well I gained over 100 pounds in all the years I have been on antipsychotic meds and antidepressants and it really sucks after I get my approved for my CPAP Machine and get my breathing under control I will start working on losing some weight.

[Remnants]

I am on Topiramate/Topamax and I believe that I have less of an appetite on the medication. For me this means I both; don't feel like eating as often- I might only eat one or two small meals in a day and I get full sooner. Especially on 100mg vs 50. I don't believe this has been enough to change my weight but I haven't been actively trying to. I think that's the key though, no medication is going to be a magic bullet, you still have to do a lot more. But I definitely can see how this could help be a tiny stepping stone to start that journey. I know it's really challenging so anything that can make that a little easier. Good luck.

[mikl_pls]

This is from what I've researched (sorry I can't provide a source, I've lost it among my millions of bookmarks, or maybe it's in a book of mine?).

Carbohydrates actually make you hungrier. If you can cut carbs, it will actually suppress your appetite. The more you cut carbs the more your appetite will be suppressed. It's hard to do, but if you can stick with it, you will come to realize over time that your appetite is less than it used to be, and you will have less of a sweet tooth/carb cravings, and, at least for me, even diet drinks at times taste too sweet (I'm the ketogenic diet which is very, very low carbs, like 20 g carbs per day).

When you take away carbs though, you have to add fat and protein. The American Standard Diet is generally comprised of 50% carbs from calories, 15% protein from calories, and 35% fat from calories according to the Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Ranges (AMDR). If someone is taking in an average of 2000 calories per day, this averages out to 250 g carbs, 75 g protein, and 77-78 g fat. That's quite a lot of carbs IMO. The way you figure this out is:

Calories: 2000
Carbs = (Calories * 50%) / 4 = (2000 * 0.5) / 4 = 250 g
Protein = (Calories * 15%) / 4 = (2000 * 0.15) / 4 = 75 g
Fat = (Calories * 35%) / 9 = (2000 * 0.35) / 9 = 77.777... g = 77-78 g

But for the ketogenic diet, for example (not that I'm saying you SHOULD follow the ketogenic diet!), carbs are DRASTICALLY reduced as fat is DRASTICALLY increased, and protein is moderately increased. But if you want to lose weight, you need a caloric deficit. Mine currently is 1600 calories (or at least, that's my goal; I don't always reach that goal). The macronutrients are: carbs = 5%, protein = 25%, fat = 70%.

Calories: 1600
Carbs: (Calories * 5%) / 4 = (1600 * 0.05) / 4 = 20 g
Protein: (Calories * 25%) / 4 = (1600 * 0.25) / 4 = 100 g
Fat: (Calories * 70%) / 9 = (1600 * 0.7) / 9 = 124.444... g = 124 g

Or you can download Myfitnesspal and change the calorie goal and macronutrient goals and let it do all the calculations for you, which is what I do... lol.

Low carb doesn't have to be 20 g, I think it can be as much as 100 g per day.

Sorry to write such a long post and if it was impertinent. I hope it was helpful!

[Blahblah]

@mikl_pls great info & research. Thanks for posting, I'm not overweight, but I'm a health nut, I use MyFitnessPal regularly and I'm starting to really get into the Macros settings.

My question is how the heck do you eat only 1600 calories a day, with only 20 grams of Carbs yet 124 grams of Fat?? That's crazy! Mind you, I'm very thin and petite (107 pds), but for example, I usually take in 1,200-1,400 calories a day and for the life of me, I cannot conceive of getting my Carbs to under 70%. I eat extremely healthy (fruits/veggies/lean protein/whole grains), and can't seem to get below like 200 grams of carbs. Very low carbs makes me very tired and irritable too. Even when I try to incorporate more Fat into diet (like olive oil, peanut butter, eggs, whole milk) you still get carbs along with those foods....

I'm curious, can i ask what a typical day of meals looks like for you? Do you supplement with a lot of protein powder? Eat Peanut Butter, cream, olive oil and a plate of nuts with every meal? ;-)

[mikl_pls]

15 hours ago, Blahblah said:

@mikl_pls great info & research. Thanks for posting, I'm not overweight, but I'm a health nut, I use MyFitnessPal regularly and I'm starting to really get into the Macros settings.

My question is how the heck do you eat only 1600 calories a day, with only 20 grams of Carbs yet 124 grams of Fat?? That's crazy! Mind you, I'm very thin and petite (107 pds), but for example, I usually take in 1,200-1,400 calories a day and for the life of me, I cannot conceive of getting my Carbs to under 70%. I eat extremely healthy (fruits/veggies/lean protein/whole grains), and can't seem to get below like 200 grams of carbs. Very low carbs makes me very tired and irritable too. Even when I try to incorporate more Fat into diet (like olive oil, peanut butter, eggs, whole milk) you still get carbs along with those foods....

I'm curious, can i ask what a typical day of meals looks like for you? Do you supplement with a lot of protein powder? Eat Peanut Butter, cream, olive oil and a plate of nuts with every meal? ;-)

Certainly! I'm glad I wasn't being redundant with my post! lol. I've become a health nut too over the last decade since I struggle with weight, thyroid problems, and diabetes, thanks to genetics, and have been using MFP since... I guess 2007? It's super helpful but I can get a little overly obsessive about it... lol. The macros settings are really neat, especially if you have a certain planned diet you want to do like keto or the "zone" diet (whatever that's used for? My sister-in-law used it while she was working out for a while, I think to help get leaner?).

It takes a lot of getting used to and a lot of discipline! lol. I have to increase my protein intake also as well as fat intake to make up for the lack of carbs. It definitely seems crazy, but it's doable. It forces your body to run on ketone bodies (the product produced when your body burns fat instead of the product produced when your body burns glucose for energy). You could actually get by without ingesting any carbs at all because protein is approximately 50%/50% ketogenic and glucogenic (half of it metabolizes into ketone bodies and the other half metabolizes into glucose, which is why if you get your protein intake too high in relevance to your other macros, you will be thrown out of ketosis).

Your brain requires some glucose to operate, but can also operate on ketone bodies too, and in fact, is said to run more efficiently on ketone bodies. They're doing research on how the ketogenic diet affects people with mood disorders like MDD and bipolar disorder, and there is a medical food the name of which I can't remember produced by the same company as Deplin aimed for people with Alzheimer's that's basically a medium-chain triglyceride formula to help produce ketone bodies for the brain to operate on (how it's supposed to work I'm not sure, but they've been doing research on the keto diet and Alzheimer's disease too). They've been doing research with the keto diet with type 2 diabetes (not type 1! They will go into ketoacidosis!) too, as well as for many other diseases and conditions.

I digress... What works for one won't always work for another. What gets me about the keto diet is that because it has so much fat and oils in it (I cook with coconut oil whenever possible because of the medium-chain triglycerides), I get full super-fast and feel satiated way longer than when I'm on a "regular" diet or higher-carb diet. Higher carb diets allow you to eat more but personally I don't feel satiated for long when I eat more carbs, which is why I eat more and gain weight, which is why I think when I reach my target weight, I'm probably going to have to do something like a "maintenance" low carb diet where I'm not on the keto diet but I'm still not taking in the "normal" amount of carbs... lol. Yes, low carb diets can cause irritability, malaise, and tiredness at first, and with very-low-carb diets like the keto diet, you get the "keto flu" which lasts anywhere from a few days to a week or so. It's pretty terrible, but it has its remedies, and when you get past it, you generally feel much better.

Well, olive oil and eggs don't have carbs (or negligible carbs), but peanut butter and milk do. If you get the right peanut butter, you can get some that has minimal carbs but more fiber than sugar or enough fiber to balance out the sugar (with negligible net carbs).

Sure I'd be glad to show you what a typical day of meals looks like for me.  I don't supplement with protein powder because it will throw my protein and fat macros off balance, possibly even my carb macros since most protein powders have plenty of carbs in them too. I do eat peanut butter, but it's usually to help balance out my macros for the day if I haven't gotten enough fat. I use olive oil, but mostly coconut oil to cook with. I use olive oil on salads mostly, like olive oil-based dressings. I eat nuts occasionally because they too tend to have some carbs in them, but it depends on the nuts. Macadamia nuts, are, so far, I've found, to be the least carby nuts with the most fat content, and are quite tasty too! Pecans are very keto-friendly too. Also, yes, I have cream with my coffee. I usually forget to log it though... oops :X

1600 calories is a "goal," which I usually don't make... lol. In fact, I usually have a hard time getting over 1000 calories per day, but this is an example of my food diary on one of my "good" days lol.

Breakfast

• Medium egg x 3 (170 g) = 232 cal (0 g carb, 15.5 g fat, 23.2 g protein)
• Sausage (4 oz.) = 380 cal (0 g carb, 34 g fat, 18 g protein)
• Unrefined coconut oil (1 tbsp) = 120 cal (0 g carb, 14 g fat, 0 g protein)

Lunch

(I usually don't eat lunch... no appetite lol)

Dinner

• Iceberg Lettuce (2 oz.) = 4 cal (0.8 g carb, 0. g fat, 0.3 g protein)
• Cucumber with peal, raw (0.0625 cup slices estimated...) = "0 cal?" (0.2 g carb, 0 g fat, 0 g protein)
• Colby and Monterey Jack Cheese (2.8 oz.) = 312 cal (0 g carb, 25.5 g fat, 19.8 g protein)
• ( I must've forgotten to log the dressing...)

Total:
Calories: 1049 (/1600)
Carbs: 1 g (0%)
Fat: 89 g (76%)
Protein: 61 g (24%)

Like I said, getting over 1000 for me is a bit tough. But I did it that day. lol

Edited January 18, 2018 by mikl_pls

[browri]

Interestingly enough when comparing the schizophrenia and bipolar monotherapy trials for aripiprazole to the trials for adjunctive to an antidepressant, those who took aripiprazole by itself generally didn't gain as much weight as those who took aripiprazole with an antidepressant. In fact a statistically significant amount of people lost weight in the aripiprazole monotherapy trials.

What happens is aripiprazole is a partial agonist at 5HT_2C receptors. When that receptor subtype is activated, it makes you feel full. When its blocked, it takes more for you to feel full. Because aripiprazole is a partial agonist, when serotonin levels are high, it will block this receptor, and when serotonin levels are low it will activate it. An SSRI like escitalopram (Lexapro) would increase the amount of serotonin in the synapse, effectively rendering aripiprazole a pure antagonist thus making people who are also on antidepressants hungrier than those who weren't. Additionally, escitalopram on its own has a tendency to make most people gain weight even without aripiprazole. So the two combined would be double trouble.

I would also caution you when using Alli. It fundamentally alters the way that your gastrointestinal tract absorbs things. In this case, there don't appear to be any direct interactions between orlistat (Alli) and escitalopram or aripiprazole, but something to consider when it comes to things like vitamin intake.

[BipolarSpinster]

On 1/18/2018 at 2:53 AM, mikl_pls said:

Certainly! I'm glad I wasn't being redundant with my post! lol. I've become a health nut too over the last decade since I struggle with weight, thyroid problems, and diabetes, thanks to genetics, and have been using MFP since... I guess 2007? It's super helpful but I can get a little overly obsessive about it... lol. The macros settings are really neat, especially if you have a certain planned diet you want to do like keto or the "zone" diet (whatever that's used for? My sister-in-law used it while she was working out for a while, I think to help get leaner?).

It takes a lot of getting used to and a lot of discipline! lol. I have to increase my protein intake also as well as fat intake to make up for the lack of carbs. It definitely seems crazy, but it's doable. It forces your body to run on ketone bodies (the product produced when your body burns fat instead of the product produced when your body burns glucose for energy). You could actually get by without ingesting any carbs at all because protein is approximately 50%/50% ketogenic and glucogenic (half of it metabolizes into ketone bodies and the other half metabolizes into glucose, which is why if you get your protein intake too high in relevance to your other macros, you will be thrown out of ketosis).

Your brain requires some glucose to operate, but can also operate on ketone bodies too, and in fact, is said to run more efficiently on ketone bodies. They're doing research on how the ketogenic diet affects people with mood disorders like MDD and bipolar disorder, and there is a medical food the name of which I can't remember produced by the same company as Deplin aimed for people with Alzheimer's that's basically a medium-chain triglyceride formula to help produce ketone bodies for the brain to operate on (how it's supposed to work I'm not sure, but they've been doing research on the keto diet and Alzheimer's disease too). They've been doing research with the keto diet with type 2 diabetes (not type 1! They will go into ketoacidosis!) too, as well as for many other diseases and conditions.

I digress... What works for one won't always work for another. What gets me about the keto diet is that because it has so much fat and oils in it (I cook with coconut oil whenever possible because of the medium-chain triglycerides), I get full super-fast and feel satiated way longer than when I'm on a "regular" diet or higher-carb diet. Higher carb diets allow you to eat more but personally I don't feel satiated for long when I eat more carbs, which is why I eat more and gain weight, which is why I think when I reach my target weight, I'm probably going to have to do something like a "maintenance" low carb diet where I'm not on the keto diet but I'm still not taking in the "normal" amount of carbs... lol. Yes, low carb diets can cause irritability, malaise, and tiredness at first, and with very-low-carb diets like the keto diet, you get the "keto flu" which lasts anywhere from a few days to a week or so. It's pretty terrible, but it has its remedies, and when you get past it, you generally feel much better.

Well, olive oil and eggs don't have carbs (or negligible carbs), but peanut butter and milk do. If you get the right peanut butter, you can get some that has minimal carbs but more fiber than sugar or enough fiber to balance out the sugar (with negligible net carbs).

Sure I'd be glad to show you what a typical day of meals looks like for me.  I don't supplement with protein powder because it will throw my protein and fat macros off balance, possibly even my carb macros since most protein powders have plenty of carbs in them too. I do eat peanut butter, but it's usually to help balance out my macros for the day if I haven't gotten enough fat. I use olive oil, but mostly coconut oil to cook with. I use olive oil on salads mostly, like olive oil-based dressings. I eat nuts occasionally because they too tend to have some carbs in them, but it depends on the nuts. Macadamia nuts, are, so far, I've found, to be the least carby nuts with the most fat content, and are quite tasty too! Pecans are very keto-friendly too. Also, yes, I have cream with my coffee. I usually forget to log it though... oops :X

1600 calories is a "goal," which I usually don't make... lol. In fact, I usually have a hard time getting over 1000 calories per day, but this is an example of my food diary on one of my "good" days lol.

Breakfast

• Medium egg x 3 (170 g) = 232 cal (0 g carb, 15.5 g fat, 23.2 g protein)
• Sausage (4 oz.) = 380 cal (0 g carb, 34 g fat, 18 g protein)
• Unrefined coconut oil (1 tbsp) = 120 cal (0 g carb, 14 g fat, 0 g protein)

Lunch

(I usually don't eat lunch... no appetite lol)

Dinner

• Iceberg Lettuce (2 oz.) = 4 cal (0.8 g carb, 0. g fat, 0.3 g protein)
• Cucumber with peal, raw (0.0625 cup slices estimated...) = "0 cal?" (0.2 g carb, 0 g fat, 0 g protein)
• Colby and Monterey Jack Cheese (2.8 oz.) = 312 cal (0 g carb, 25.5 g fat, 19.8 g protein)
• ( I must've forgotten to log the dressing...)

Total:
Calories: 1049 (/1600)
Carbs: 1 g (0%)
Fat: 89 g (76%)
Protein: 61 g (24%)

Like I said, getting over 1000 for me is a bit tough. But I did it that day. lol

How? How do you get/stay full off this minuscule amount of food?!

[mikl_pls]

1 hour ago, BipolarSpinster said:

How? How do you get/stay full off this minuscule amount of food?!

You'd be surprised at how full you feel on the ketogenic diet. The high fat content of the diet makes you feel satiated more for longer to the point where you feel like eating is a chore. Plus taking stimulants helps.

[BipolarSpinster]

15 minutes ago, mikl_pls said:

You'd be surprised at how full you feel on the ketogenic diet. The high fat content of the diet makes you feel satiated more for longer to the point where you feel like eating is a chore. Plus taking stimulants helps.

Meh. Adderall hasn’t helped me in months. I’m taking a break from it atm since cycling, so maybe it’ll be more helpful once I start it again. Of course...just started the Topamax so who knows which will be helping now. 

Is there a site or book that is helpful with eating that way on the cheap?

[mikl_pls]

1 hour ago, BipolarSpinster said:

Meh. Adderall hasn’t helped me in months. I’m taking a break from it atm since cycling, so maybe it’ll be more helpful once I start it again. Of course...just started the Topamax so who knows which will be helping now.

That's part of why I switched to Dexedrine is because Adderall wasn't helping (not just with weight loss but also ADHD and hypersomnia). It's so much better for me. It works more on dopamine than norepinephrine, whereas Adderall works equally on both neurotransmitters if not more on norepinephrine (hence why my heart rate and blood pressure rise on Adderall and not so much so while on Dexedrine).

1 hour ago, BipolarSpinster said:

Is there a site or book that is helpful with eating that way on the cheap?

https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq was helpful when I was first getting the hang of it. Also, almost anything that turned up from searching "ketogenic diet" when searched in Google also helped, although there were a few sites that were unhelpful... 

https://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ was somewhat helpful in getting my macronutrients balanced out, but really, Myfitnesspal will do that for you. All you have to do is set your daily caloric goal and go to Goals > Calories and Macronutrient Goals and adjust from there. Set fat to 5%, protein to 25%, and fat to 70%, and it will automatically calculate the amount you will need to eat according to how many calories you aim to eat each day.

You will read this, but you will need to take in more salt, potassium, and magnesium while on the keto diet, at least acutely while your body adjusts to the lack of carbs because you will be shedding so much water weight at first that your electrolytes will likely get out of balance. You also will want to take in a lot more water (not more than is healthy though!). Potassium and magnesium supplements will help with the "keto flu," a temporary adjustment period of flu-like symptoms and cognitive impairment that is basically your body and brain saying "WHERE'S MY GLUCOSE?" Your body is adjusting to running on ketones as its main fuel supply instead of glucose. Once you get used to it, though, you will feel great! You'll have lots of energy, and when I am on it, steadily, I actually feel a lot more stable; however, sometimes, my mood can take a dive, which is supposedly a result of following the low carb diet, which can lead to low serotonin levels. Supposedly taking 5-HTP can help with this, but I highly recommend you consult with your pdoc before doing this! 5-HTP can interact with psychiatric meds and can even cause serotonin syndrome!

[BipolarSpinster]

7 hours ago, mikl_pls said:

That's part of why I switched to Dexedrine is because Adderall wasn't helping (not just with weight loss but also ADHD and hypersomnia). It's so much better for me. It works more on dopamine than norepinephrine, whereas Adderall works equally on both neurotransmitters if not more on norepinephrine (hence why my heart rate and blood pressure rise on Adderall and not so much so while on Dexedrine).

https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq was helpful when I was first getting the hang of it. Also, almost anything that turned up from searching "ketogenic diet" when searched in Google also helped, although there were a few sites that were unhelpful... 

https://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ was somewhat helpful in getting my macronutrients balanced out, but really, Myfitnesspal will do that for you. All you have to do is set your daily caloric goal and go to Goals > Calories and Macronutrient Goals and adjust from there. Set fat to 5%, protein to 25%, and fat to 70%, and it will automatically calculate the amount you will need to eat according to how many calories you aim to eat each day.

You will read this, but you will need to take in more salt, potassium, and magnesium while on the keto diet, at least acutely while your body adjusts to the lack of carbs because you will be shedding so much water weight at first that your electrolytes will likely get out of balance. You also will want to take in a lot more water (not more than is healthy though!). Potassium and magnesium supplements will help with the "keto flu," a temporary adjustment period of flu-like symptoms and cognitive impairment that is basically your body and brain saying "WHERE'S MY GLUCOSE?" Your body is adjusting to running on ketones as its main fuel supply instead of glucose. Once you get used to it, though, you will feel great! You'll have lots of energy, and when I am on it, steadily, I actually feel a lot more stable; however, sometimes, my mood can take a dive, which is supposedly a result of following the low carb diet, which can lead to low serotonin levels. Supposedly taking 5-HTP can help with this, but I highly recommend you consult with your pdoc before doing this! 5-HTP can interact with psychiatric meds and can even cause serotonin syndrome!

Yeah no to the Dexedrine in Nashville. No one prescribes it anymore nor do pharmacies carry. 

I was more wondering specifically if it was possible somehow to eat ketogenically inexpensively. I’ll google, my hopes are low. Thanks. 

[mikl_pls]

12 minutes ago, BipolarSpinster said:

I was more wondering specifically if it was possible somehow to eat ketogenically inexpensively. I’ll google, my hopes are low. Thanks.

Oh! Yeah, I'm not sure if it's possible to eat ketogenically inexpensively... sorry I misunderstood you! There are supposedly ways to eat ketogenically vegetarian and vegan, which I think would make it less expensive, but also makes it way more difficult, both to pull off and to lose weight.

[BipolarSpinster]

16 minutes ago, mikl_pls said:

Oh! Yeah, I'm not sure if it's possible to eat ketogenically inexpensively... sorry I misunderstood you! There are supposedly ways to eat ketogenically vegetarian and vegan, which I think would make it less expensive, but also makes it way more difficult, both to pull off and to lose weight.

No Problem.  Guess I'm stuck till I write a bestseller then!