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JJ17

Zyprexa vs Risperdal for OCD

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11 hours ago, JJ17 said:

Browri: Thanks for the info.

I’m confused on:

“With THC increasing dopamine release through activation of CB1 receptors and CBD modulating that dopamine activity by binding to D2 receptors, you kind of have yourself an atypical antipsychotic don't you?” 

I thought that atypical antipsychotics worked by modulating dopamine activity in the opposite way or much differently then THC? 

Also in terms of the SSRIS causing the zombie/emotional blunting due to high sertonin and low dopamine levels - that’s kinda odd. I’ve heard people talk about it and knew it was possible but they don’t do that for me. I could (or can) still feel emotions “too much” even at max dose SSRIS.... I actually would like some emotional blunting but I don’t get any. The one side effect I wish SSRIS would give me, and it doesn’t.... As my attachment problem is emotional based so having a way to blunt it, even if only somewhat, would be very nice....

But in theory then you’re saying that risperidone could make it worse (at least for me) as I still have basically all the low sertonin symptoms even being on an SSRI and risperidone...Huh. 

 

But update wise:

Been on it a few weeks now still at 1mg and it doesn’t feel like I’m taking anything.... but then again I’m not sure. As things like THC and nicotine seemed to be more potent: so is it from the SSRI or risperidone? Or both? Guess I won’t ever really know since I increased Zoloft around the same time as starting risperidone, so it could be from upping the Zoloft by 50mg and finally achieving   Therapeutic levels - or it could be from starting the 1mg risperidone. Damn I should have asked my doctor if I could have spaced them out to see which med is doing what (or anything). 

I got ULTRA stressed a couple weeks ago when I decided to hangout with the person I have an attachment on. So I bought cigarettes and beer, and started to smoke again. I quit cold turkey a year or so ago, and have gone on and off many cold turkey in the past 10 years and never having any WD, it honestly felt like nicotine/cigarettes did nothing mentally to me during those 10+ years on and off - the only addictive part that kept me smoking was blowing out smoke and “looking cool”. 

But now after being on SSRI long term and at high dose - or being on Risperidone - or maybe Combo of both - whatever the case  they seem to also intensify nicotine. As I feel that “nicotine buzz”. I also felt slightly better mentally - like more confident. I never got those positive mood boosts from nicotine before.... So I wonder if Zoloft and/or Risperidone is causing the nicotine to release more dopamine and serotonin? Or possibly other things? Or maybe nicotine never did anything mentally before as there wasn’t “much dopamine or serotonin to work with” in the first place - and the SSRI changed that by reuptaking sertonin, and Risperidone by... Well, not sure I figured by blocking dopamine such as D2 it would weak nicotine’s effects

But I haven’t fully read the comments above yet so maybe I should =P 

 

Antipsychotics may have some emotional blunting effect.

I have never heard about SSRIs producing this effect.

In theory they could do that... indirectly.

Nicotine binds to certain acetylcholine receptors that when activated cause dopamine firing in quite many parts of the nervous system.

When D2 autoreceptors are blocked by antagonists that dopamine activity is enhanced.

 

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You haven’t heard of SSRIS causing emotional blunting? I thought it was a commonly known issue. I believe “SSRI induced indifference” is the actual name behind it from studies. 

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5 hours ago, JJ17 said:

You haven’t heard of SSRIS causing emotional blunting? I thought it was a commonly known issue. I believe “SSRI induced indifference” is the actual name behind it from studies. 

It makes sense in the long term, if too much serotonin changes the receptor expression (i.e downregulation). If this is the case then Buspirone, a serotonin 5HT1A agonist may be helpful.

There is also the theory behind serotonin reuptake enhancers (SSRE) that basically says the serotonin must be taken back to the presynaptic neuron for it to have enough serotonin in it to fire again in a short time.

The meaning of this principle is that SSRIs keep more serotonin in the synapse in a way that there is less of it available for subsequent firing.

This too can explain emotional blunting on SSRIs, but I believe there is a reason why SSRIs are widely used while Tianeptine is less so.

Everyone is different :)

From personal experience: .5 mg Risperidone augmented SSRI effect. 1mg Risperidone made me flat and numb.
I think than a good antidepressant raises your baseline in a way that you can have "higher" good and bad moods, like "white" and "grey", instead of depression where you have "grey" and "black". Blunting emotions is a way to cope with immediate over-sensitivity but in my opinion is not a good way to live.

Edited by HydroCat

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18 hours ago, HydroCat said:

It makes sense in the long term, if too much serotonin changes the receptor expression (i.e downregulation). If this is the case then Buspirone, a serotonin 5HT1A agonist may be helpful.

There is also the theory behind serotonin reuptake enhancers (SSRE) that basically says the serotonin must be taken back to the presynaptic neuron for it to have enough serotonin in it to fire again in a short time.

The meaning of this principle is that SSRIs keep more serotonin in the synapse in a way that there is less of it available for subsequent firing.

This too can explain emotional blunting on SSRIs, but I believe there is a reason why SSRIs are widely used while Tianeptine is less so.

Everyone is different :)

From personal experience: .5 mg Risperidone augmented SSRI effect. 1mg Risperidone made me flat and numb.
I think than a good antidepressant raises your baseline in a way that you can have "higher" good and bad moods, like "white" and "grey", instead of depression where you have "grey" and "black". Blunting emotions is a way to cope with immediate over-sensitivity but in my opinion is not a good way to live.

Interesting but confusing. 

Studies from Oxford University have shown that between 46 percent and 71 percent of antidepressant users have experienced emotional blunting during treatment. 

How come risperidone would cause someone to feel flat/less emotions? Would it be because it blocks dopamine? 

I thought SSRIS did so by “increasing sertonin” and often high sertonin and low dopamine was linked to SSRIS causing people to feel less emotions. Some report it happens in over 60% of people, it’s a super common side effect of SSRIS. 

There’s even an entire website dedicated to people who “fell out of love due to SSRIS” after being on SSRIS. They all claim the same thing: they felt less emotions on SSRIS and stopped caring about their relationships. Tons of people online say it caused them divorces due to lack of emotions... My former Roomate took Prozac and 6 weeks later divorced her life long partner.... She became emotionally numb on Prozac and told me that. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989833/

In the existing literature, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor exposure has been occasionally associated with both behavioral apathy and emotional blunting.”

 

https://www.mdmag.com/medical-news/half-of-patients-on-antidepressants-experience-emotional-blunting

>>Links to study on sciencedirect: 

Highlights:

“The rate of emotional blunting in patients currently treated with antidepressants was 46%.

Blunting scores on a bespoke scale (OQESA) correlated with self reported depression.

A negative perception of emotional blunting is most likely when the effect is strong.

Emotional blunting is not a simple side-effect of antidepressants; it behaves also like a residual symptom of depression.“

https://www.verywellmind.com/can-antidepressants-make-you-feel-emotionally-numb-1067348

 

Google has countless sources from blogs to actual studies, almost all say SSRIS cause emotional blunting.

So I’m kinda confused as to why you said they shouldn’t? 

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These are interesting studies but I can't be convinced this had to do with SSRIs.

They are based on surveys, which are not scientific. They also say that the severity of emotional blunting is correlated with the severity of the diagnosed depressive symptoms (so this can be attributed to depression symptoms after having some of them lifted by the meds).

I did not say it is impossible, but I believe that the mechanism causing it most likely has to do with downregulation of serotonin receptors due to being over-activated because the SSRI dose is too high. Another reason may be over-activated 5HT2C receptor that causes inhibition of noradrenaline and dopamine release. If this is true then Prozac (SSRI but 5HT2C antagonist) must be differrent than others.

This way or another, the effect is reversible by decreasing the dose.

Antipsychotics, on the other hand, are more well-known for this effect by directly antagonising dopamine receptors and balancing dopamine levels.

Everyone is different in sometimes strange ways. I got a hedious side effect from Risperidone which not even listed.

Anyhow, statistics can get you so far. There is a wide range of meds that work and nobody knows why.

Eventuallly, we should find a good pdoc, explore and listen to ourselves.

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On 12/9/2018 at 4:05 AM, JJ17 said:

“With THC increasing dopamine release through activation of CB1 receptors and CBD modulating that dopamine activity by binding to D2 receptors, you kind of have yourself an atypical antipsychotic don't you?” 

I thought that atypical antipsychotics worked by modulating dopamine activity in the opposite way or much differently then THC? 

It's not THC you should be focusing on. It's CBD. The other cannabinoid that's been getting a lot of attention. It's actually a dopamine partial agonist like Abilify, Rexulti, and Vraylar. It modulates dopamine activity like an antipsychotic. I only bring in THC to the mix because when atypical antipsychotics block 5HT2A it also increases dopamine release as when THC activates CB1. So theoretically, cannabis strains with low THC and high CBD could theoretically provide control of mood disorders.

On 12/9/2018 at 4:05 AM, JJ17 said:

Also in terms of the SSRIS causing the zombie/emotional blunting due to high sertonin and low dopamine levels - that’s kinda odd. I’ve heard people talk about it and knew it was possible but they don’t do that for me. I could (or can) still feel emotions “too much” even at max dose SSRIS.... I actually would like some emotional blunting but I don’t get any. The one side effect I wish SSRIS would give me, and it doesn’t.... As my attachment problem is emotional based so having a way to blunt it, even if only somewhat, would be very nice....

But in theory then you’re saying that risperidone could make it worse (at least for me) as I still have basically all the low sertonin symptoms even being on an SSRI and risperidone...Huh. 

Well risperidone will certainly help if some emotional blunting is what you need. But it can also improve emotional blunting for some people in low doses.

On 12/9/2018 at 4:05 AM, JJ17 said:

But update wise:

Been on it a few weeks now still at 1mg and it doesn’t feel like I’m taking anything.... but then again I’m not sure. As things like THC and nicotine seemed to be more potent: so is it from the SSRI or risperidone? Or both? Guess I won’t ever really know since I increased Zoloft around the same time as starting risperidone, so it could be from upping the Zoloft by 50mg and finally achieving   Therapeutic levels - or it could be from starting the 1mg risperidone. Damn I should have asked my doctor if I could have spaced them out to see which med is doing what (or anything). 

I got ULTRA stressed a couple weeks ago when I decided to hangout with the person I have an attachment on. So I bought cigarettes and beer, and started to smoke again. I quit cold turkey a year or so ago, and have gone on and off many cold turkey in the past 10 years and never having any WD, it honestly felt like nicotine/cigarettes did nothing mentally to me during those 10+ years on and off - the only addictive part that kept me smoking was blowing out smoke and “looking cool”. 

But now after being on SSRI long term and at high dose - or being on Risperidone - or maybe Combo of both - whatever the case  they seem to also intensify nicotine. As I feel that “nicotine buzz”. I also felt slightly better mentally - like more confident. I never got those positive mood boosts from nicotine before.... So I wonder if Zoloft and/or Risperidone is causing the nicotine to release more dopamine and serotonin? Or possibly other things? Or maybe nicotine never did anything mentally before as there wasn’t “much dopamine or serotonin to work with” in the first place - and the SSRI changed that by reuptaking sertonin, and Risperidone by... Well, not sure I figured by blocking dopamine such as D2 it would weak nicotine’s effects

But I haven’t fully read the comments above yet so maybe I should =P 

It's possible that risperidone could increase your nicotine buzz because risperidone can block adrenaline receptors thus enhancing adrenaline release and possibly a deeper buzz. Not sure. Grasping at straws.

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Well, I have noticed this: smoking it has a vastly different effect then an edible. I believe the Edibiles are just THC.

So when taking just THC like a gummy or either edible in the 5-10mg of THC (unknown perhaps zero CBD content) range there are a couple times I felt “on top of the world” feeling. Wish that feeling could be 24/7 and my sertonin and dopamine was always that high, or whatever it was. Smoking it doesn’t cause that same good feeling really, maybe just because it’s weaker, I don’t know. Or maybe because smoking it has THC + CBD while edibles are just THC. 

As it seems increasing dopamine (for me) results in more motivation, energy, mood boost, etc - but OCD can get worsened somewhat. As if I take my ADHD meds (been on Dexedrine, Adderall, and Ritalin) any of those meds all cause me a major mood boost, but like I said above it can worsen my OCD. But normally I’m able to think of something else and I’m back to feeling the mood boost.

As Adderall causes a major mood boost - which I believe it reuptakes and relases dopamine, while Ritalin I believe is more of a reuptake inhibitor. Regardless they both drastically improve overall mood. My guess is because they “increase” dopamine levels.

So I only take risperidone in hopes that it’s dopamine blockade would perhaps lessen OCD. Not sure if it’s working. Since higher dopamine seemed to be capable of worsening attachment disorders, anxiety, and just obsessive thoughts. So I thought risperidone is generally an “anti dopamine drug” as it blocks/rebalances it - so I thought that it would be good for me possibly. Seems not to be the case as heavy dopamine agents like Dexedrine cause the biggest mood boost of all, besides perhaps marijuana. 

 

And I believe it’s the pot that’s making the nicotine strongest in my case. Kinda pointless for me to take a med that “blocks dopamine” at night, then during the day take a med that cause the release of and/or reuptakes dopamine. Perhaps counter productive, no? 

Edited by JJ17

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Commercial cannabis has little to no CBD. (<1%) CBD was eliminated by hybridization quite some time ago, as it interferes with the THC high . Also eliminating CBD means the plant uses resources to mainly make flowers and THC and devotes little if any energy to making CBD. Only special strains like Canatonic, Charlotte's Web, and others have high CBD. At least at my dispensary you can buy edibles with either THC, THC+CBD,or CBD alone. I use an isolate of CBD, 99.8% pure and is in power form so I can vaporize it.

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On 12/15/2018 at 8:47 PM, notloki said:

Commercial cannabis has little to no CBD. (<1%) CBD was eliminated by hybridization quite some time ago, as it interferes with the THC high .

It's such a shame that this is what we've done to such a wonderful plant. THC certainly has its place, don't get me wrong, but CBD plays such an important role in the entourage effect and THC on its own can exacerbate psychiatric conditions that aren't properly controlled unless of course you know what you're doing and you do low dose THC. I think the study they did nailed the anxiolytic dose of THC at ~7.5mg but 12mg was anxiogenic? Regardless, whenever I have a choice of cannabis strain, I always choose one that has a prominent CBD profile or a high CBD:THC ratio. They're just so hard to find anymore because getting high is all the industry seems to care about nowadays.

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3 minutes ago, browri said:

It's such a shame that this is what we've done to such a wonderful plant. THC certainly has its place, don't get me wrong, but CBD plays such an important role in the entourage effect and THC on its own can exacerbate psychiatric conditions that aren't properly controlled unless of course you know what you're doing and you do low dose THC. I think the study they did nailed the anxiolytic dose of THC at ~7.5mg but 12mg was anxiogenic? Regardless, whenever I have a choice of cannabis strain, I always choose one that has a prominent CBD profile or a high CBD:THC ratio. They're just so hard to find anymore because getting high is all the industry seems to care about nowadays.

For pain control and GI issues THC is necessary. I've never had anxiety or panic doing THC or cannabis. While THC(a) seems to have some anticonvulsant effects it is clear CBD is the major player in being an anticonvulsive.

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I prefer buying CBD as it's pure isolate, 1 gram of a tasteless while power, 99.8% pure. Vaporising is my prefered method of delivery. Most tinctures and oils have a low amount of CBD when your goal is 50-150 mg doses. Of the credible research, I found a range used, 100-250 mg. The isolate I can get is a one gram in weight. So I can get as much as 30 doses from that.

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On 12/21/2018 at 10:03 AM, notloki said:

While THC(a) seems to have some anticonvulsant effects it is clear CBD is the major player in being an anticonvulsive.

This is actually very interesting. I can't find the article right now, but they interviewed some of the parents of kids who participated in the pre-clinical trials for Epidiolex. Some of the parents said they actually had better efficacy from the over-the-counter CBD extracts than they did from Epidiolex. In the article, some group went into an investigation about why Epidiolex may be less effective than the over-the-counter extracts, and they found I believe that the over-the-counter extracts of course still had traces of THC, whereas Epidiolex is so purely manufactured that it contains virtually no THC. The theory was that the trace amount of THC in the existing extracts was critical to the anti-epileptic function of those extracts, which could explain Epidiolex's lesser efficacy.

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4 hours ago, browri said:

This is actually very interesting. I can't find the article right now, but they interviewed some of the parents of kids who participated in the pre-clinical trials for Epidiolex. Some of the parents said they actually had better efficacy from the over-the-counter CBD extracts than they did from Epidiolex. In the article, some group went into an investigation about why Epidiolex may be less effective than the over-the-counter extracts, and they found I believe that the over-the-counter extracts of course still had traces of THC, whereas Epidiolex is so purely manufactured that it contains virtually no THC. The theory was that the trace amount of THC in the existing extracts was critical to the anti-epileptic function of those extracts, which could explain Epidiolex's lesser efficacy.

That may be. I heard an interview with the Charlottes Web people and they were all about terpenes and whole plant extracts. Of course Charlotte's Web is a privately held company so they don't have the pressure to publish what is really in Charlotte's Web. Still, one thing is clear is that CBD by itself is a good anticonvulsive. I don't know much about THC(a), it occasionally turns up in trace amounts in the analysis on high grade cannabis at my dispensary.

When treating pain with cannabis conventional wisdom is you need both THC and CBD.  

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16 hours ago, notloki said:

When treating pain with cannabis conventional wisdom is you need both THC and CBD.  

Very true. And this would go hand-in-hand with why it can be a good substitute in opioid use disorder next to Suboxone or methadone.

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I wonder if going from 1mg to 2mg would help OCD or not? I mean it’s dopamine blocking becomes much greater at 2mg.

 

One night I did take two pills or 2mg. I slept easier, but it was harder to wake up. I felt “medicine head” which actually I found to be a good thing. The fact I get basically zero side effects from SSRIS or Risperidone of all things - makes me wonder if the dose I’m on isn’t strong enough to “do anything”. 

As it took 200mg of Zoloft before I felt a SINGLE side effect from SSRIS. And it was a beneficial one, but I cannot believe 150mg and below felt like taking a sugar pill: both effect wise and side effect wise. At least having some side effects you know the medication is “doing something”. So I wonder if 2mg Risperidone might work better.

Edited by JJ17

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It's quite possible. Also, you can kind of counteract the next-day hangover by taking it earlier. 7-8PM is when my partner and I usually take our evening meds to avoid sedation in the morning.

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Fuck I give up. I went to taking 2mg for about 4-5 days, then went back down to 1mg, then forgot to refill it. 

But taking 0.5mg or 2mg - felt the same....

Absouktely nothing works. Zoloft, max dose + Ritalin + Risperidone + Vicodin + Pot + Benzos = STILL have those intrusive thoughts. I’ve tried them all seperatrly, and together, and even all at once.

Even on a bunch of meds that are known to cause happiness, yet I still cannot feel normal. I feel artificial happiness short term - somewhat - at least in the sense being high makes things easier to laugh at, for example. But I can get so high that I cannot walk straight and vomit - yet I STILL CANNOT get those intrusive love thoughts out of my head. I’m totally f*******

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Not that I have anything against getting high, it feels good mood-wise, but I've noticed that when I smoke more than just a few draws I get intrusive thoughts that are otherwise under control. It also makes me more sensitive to the feelings they come with.

This is why I don't smoke when I am unstable anyhow.

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21 minutes ago, HydroCat said:

Not that I have anything against getting high, it feels good mood-wise, but I've noticed that when I smoke more than just a few draws I get intrusive thoughts that are otherwise under control. It also makes me more sensitive to the feelings they come with.

This is why I don't smoke when I am unstable anyhow.

I experience the same exact thing. Gave it up because of that.

notloki, what kind of vape do you use for the powder? Anything in particular that you’d recommend. Been thinking that my dose on the tincture was way too low.

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