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Megalomaniacal

Is "incel" something common among people with anxiety disorders?

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Posted (edited)

Don't know if this is the right place to ask, but I've never been too confident about my looks. I often got picked on which resulted in low self-esteem for myself and body dysmorphia. I've dated a few girls online, but never had a real life relationship with a girl. This is what contributes to my loneliness and self-hatred. Never kissed a girl before, never had sex with a girl before. It's because of how anxious I am when I'm around them. I don't know what they're going to be saying about me. I don't know if they'll start laughing at me or it'll result in a major embarrassment for me, so I avoid eye-contact with women in real life. I've had women flirt with me before, but I never gave in because I was too nervous or embarrassed. I've had sex one time before, but it wasn't with a member of the opposite sex (and I wasn't even on top either). I've had two other sexual encounters before as well, but they were both homosexual in nature too. Is this social anxiety causing this? I've noticed that I'm not as anxious around men as I am around women.

Edited by Megalomaniacal

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i don't think there's anything wrong with not having any encounters romantically or sexually with women, even if you're attracted to them. i'm 20 years old and a lesbian, and i haven't kissed (let alone slept with) a girl either, and the way things are looking, it's not likely to happen soon. my bouquet of anxiety disorders is partially to blame, as i have panic attacks when in romantic situations, but i also don't think i'm in a place where being in a relationship would work for me. i need more time to focus on myself, and i don't feel like sharing my life yet. 

i know it seems like everyone has dated/slept with women but you, but trust me, there are many more like you than you know. you don't have to disclose your lack of experience if you don't want to. nobody deserves to know that information but you. 

the fact that women flirting with you makes you nervous/embarrassed says to me that you might need to get a better handle on social anxiety before you seek a relationship. it's normal to be nervous around people you're attracted to, but if you're having panic symptoms, that's indicative of social anxiety. it's possible to have an encounter with anxiety, but it does make it harder, as you know. going slow and seeking friends first is a good way to go about it. with anxiety disorders, you have to convince your brain that someone is safe to be around before anything else. if you're afraid that they're going to laugh about you, that's your brain saying that it doesn't think the situation is safe.

37 minutes ago, Megalomaniacal said:

I don't know what they're going to be saying about me. I don't know if they'll start laughing at me or it'll result in a major embarrassment for me, so I avoid eye-contact with women in real life.

something that helps me to remember is that nobody thinks about you as much as you do -- everyone is too busy thinking about themselves. it's far more likely that the women you're afraid of are thinking about their own issues. something really bad would have to happen for people to laugh at you in anything but a mildly teasing way. socializing has risks, of course, but if you take genuine interest in what people say and make a couple jokes, things are likely to go smoothly.

lastly (and feel free to ignore this if you're not comfortable discussing it), are you attracted to men as well? if you are, and you find them easier to get along with, would it be possible to seek a relationship with a man? if this isn't the case, i understand -- i've had a couple encounters with men myself despite not really being attracted to them. in my case, it was more because i was depressed, and they paid attention to me. shit happens.

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I have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the word incel, but assuming you're here in good faith, a LOT of people struggle meeting others, at all ages of life. I have only recently opened myself up to dating after a very long hiatus (more because of trauma than anxiety). 

I'm gonna be honest- that you don't have a long dating history isn't causing your low self esteem, your low self esteem is preventing you forming relationships, especially the one with yourself. The internet is bad at communicating tone but I'm not trying to lecture or belittle, this is coming from personal experience. And it feels really good to put yourself out there and to work on your self esteem and to accomplish that. Trying to outsource your self esteem to others is a sure fire way of making yourself miserable. 

It's worth interrogating why your anxiety is towards women but not towards men? You say you have experience with men before, do you not count that as legitimate experiences? Reading between the lines a bit, you put a huge amount of weight behind your sexual experiences with women, and I think the sooner you let yourself off the hook the better off you'll be. Do you have any female friends, or sisters, or any women in your life that you can talk to?

Look, I'm scared of drunk men. I had to work on it in therapy. Truthfully, it's because I've had a lot of issues with drunk men in the past where they didn't respect mine or others boundaries and it made me very wary. But that doesn't mean I have the right to judge all drunk men as bad, and finding my voice and being assertive (and not assuming the worst/being defensive) has helped a lot. Yes, drunk men can be sh*tty, but it was still MY problem to solve.

(Also, from another lesbian, I find that you commented on 'not being on top' to be strange. We aren't going to judge you for that. There is a lot of internalised misogyny in men who have sex with men, and I really hope that hasn't affected your outlook on these experiences.)

TL;DR- make friends with women (we're great!), recognise that a lot of people deal with this, improving your self esteem is 100% more important than dating, you can be bi or pan or however you identify and it's all good.

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Anake makes a very good point: having female friends before you go in search of a girlfriend is a good idea. It drives me nuts when men behave as if they have to talk to us as if we’re -gasp!- women, as distinct from people, but there’s no sense in pretending that women aren’t socialized differently. We’re conditioned from birth to be polite, to be nice, to be empathetic, but the flip side of that is that it makes us wary in ways that men of my acquaintance don’t seem to be. 

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Posted (edited)

You are not expressing views of women that are typical of an incel. 

I think you’re lumping yourself into a pretty nasty group of people who are notably misogynistic, and even violent with women. They think women owe them.  

I personally think you’re suffering from anxiety with women...not wishing them harm or seeing them as objects. 

I do not think you are an incel. 

Edited by DammitJanet
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7 hours ago, DammitJanet said:

You are not expressing views of women that are typical of an incel. 

I think you’re lumping yourself into a pretty nasty group of people who are notably misogynistic, and even violent with women. They think women owe them.  

I personally think you’re suffering from anxiety with women...not wishing them harm or seeing them as objects. 

I do not think you are a. Incel.  

She’s right.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Iguana said:

She’s right.

And as I reread my post when you quoted it I  saw all my mistakes. 😂 

Edited by DammitJanet

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Posted (edited)
On 4/24/2019 at 6:17 PM, ananke said:

I have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the word incel, but assuming you're here in good faith, a LOT of people struggle meeting others, at all ages of life. I have only recently opened myself up to dating after a very long hiatus (more because of trauma than anxiety). 

I'm gonna be honest- that you don't have a long dating history isn't causing your low self esteem, your low self esteem is preventing you forming relationships, especially the one with yourself. The internet is bad at communicating tone but I'm not trying to lecture or belittle, this is coming from personal experience. And it feels really good to put yourself out there and to work on your self esteem and to accomplish that. Trying to outsource your self esteem to others is a sure fire way of making yourself miserable. 

It's worth interrogating why your anxiety is towards women but not towards men? You say you have experience with men before, do you not count that as legitimate experiences? Reading between the lines a bit, you put a huge amount of weight behind your sexual experiences with women, and I think the sooner you let yourself off the hook the better off you'll be. Do you have any female friends, or sisters, or any women in your life that you can talk to?

Look, I'm scared of drunk men. I had to work on it in therapy. Truthfully, it's because I've had a lot of issues with drunk men in the past where they didn't respect mine or others boundaries and it made me very wary. But that doesn't mean I have the right to judge all drunk men as bad, and finding my voice and being assertive (and not assuming the worst/being defensive) has helped a lot. Yes, drunk men can be sh*tty, but it was still MY problem to solve.

(Also, from another lesbian, I find that you commented on 'not being on top' to be strange. We aren't going to judge you for that. There is a lot of internalised misogyny in men who have sex with men, and I really hope that hasn't affected your outlook on these experiences.)

TL;DR- make friends with women (we're great!), recognise that a lot of people deal with this, improving your self esteem is 100% more important than dating, you can be bi or pan or however you identify and it's all good.

Sorry if I am a bit late to respond, but no, I am using the term "incel" a bit more broadly. As in, I am somebody who is celibate, but involuntarily (i.e. I have a sex drive, but for a number of reasons I cannot fulfill my sexual desires even when I want to). In other words, I'm a virgin. I'm 21 years old, btw. Also, as for the part about the gay thing, it happened when I started crossdressing and went on a gay dating app and hooked up with some guy in my neighborhood.

14 hours ago, DammitJanet said:

You are not expressing views of women that are typical of an incel. 

I think you’re lumping yourself into a pretty nasty group of people who are notably misogynistic, and even violent with women. They think women owe them.  

I personally think you’re suffering from anxiety with women...not wishing them harm or seeing them as objects. 

I do not think you are a. Incel.  

I do not hate women. There are many women who have been very friendly to me. While a majority of them I don't see anymore since they went to my school and I don't go to school anymore, but I see women the same way that I do men. Just because one woman was a bitch to me doesn't mean that I see all women as bitches. Sometimes it was my own fault, because since I was raised to a single mom (who aren't as keen to raising sons into men as fathers are, because they can't learn those cues from women, they have to learn them from men in order to know how to become men), I don't know how you're supposed to really act around women. I have creeped some women out in the few encounters I had with them a long time ago (only two times), so I want to prevent that from happening again. I don't know how to approach women, what to say, how to talk to them, etc. My mom obviously isn't going to teach me that, neither will anybody else, so I'm gonna have to learn that somehow. I hate being so lonely and sexually deprived. It's gotten so bad to where any time I see a man and a woman either in real life, TV or anywhere, I literally feel like killing myself. I feel like taking my grandfather's gun and shooting myself in the head. I get suicidally depressed because of how badly frustrated I am sexually. I've gotten to where I can't even look at straight porn anymore (or any porn involving women). I get so ashamed of myself and I get so angry because of how much anxiety I have around women and how much I'm missing out. But I've also recently noticed it's around pretty much anybody. Getting with men is much easier than with women. At least for me.

Edited by Megalomaniacal
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Look, if you are suicidal, I'd really recommend taking some time off dating anyone and focusing on getting yourself to a better place mentally. You can always get back to dating but you can't come back from death. 

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but why don't you consider your experiences with men to be part of your sexuality? Virginity as a concept is only useful if you are a 16th century squire marrying off his daughter. To not have sexual experience with women by 21 is more common than you think. But you need to put your mental health first. 

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1 hour ago, ananke said:

Look, if you are suicidal, I'd really recommend taking some time off dating anyone and focusing on getting yourself to a better place mentally. You can always get back to dating but you can't come back from death. 

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but why don't you consider your experiences with men to be part of your sexuality? Virginity as a concept is only useful if you are a 16th century squire marrying off his daughter. To not have sexual experience with women by 21 is more common than you think. But you need to put your mental health first. 

I agree with this 100%. You should definitely work on your mental health FIRST before considering any kind of relationship. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, can make you more suicidal than a relationship gone sour. Trust me I know from first hand experience. So if you are already leaning toward suicide, you had better forgo the relationship game and get yourself in order. 

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23 hours ago, Megalomaniacal said:

Sorry if I am a bit late to respond, but no, I am using the term "incel" a bit more broadly. As in, I am somebody who is celibate, but involuntarily (i.e. I have a sex drive, but for a number of reasons I cannot fulfill my sexual desires even when I want to).

You should know that while you may be intending to use this term in a very literal sense, that is absolutely not what is portrayed. This term has been co-opted by misogynistic male supremacists who feel entitled to having their sexual desires met. You will do better to use language like "I am lonely", "I am sexually frustrated", and "I have anxiety about interacting with women".

On 4/25/2019 at 10:07 PM, Megalomaniacal said:

Sometimes it was my own fault, because since I was raised to a single mom (who aren't as keen to raising sons into men as fathers are, because they can't learn those cues from women, they have to learn them from men in order to know how to become men), I don't know how you're supposed to really act around women. I have creeped some women out in the few encounters I had with them a long time ago (only two times), so I want to prevent that from happening again. I don't know how to approach women, what to say, how to talk to them, etc. My mom obviously isn't going to teach me that, neither will anybody else, so I'm gonna have to learn that somehow.

This confuses me. If you want to know how to act around women - what makes most women uncomfortable, for example - why would you ask a man? I mean, yes, you could ask a man... but absolutely you should be talking to (and listening to) women on this type of subject.

It is absolutely possible for single mothers to raise their sons "into men". There's nothing secret about it that requires a penis to teach.

Stop reading forums for "incels", those radical/extremist groups will not help you get well or function in the greater developed world. Get a therapist. Learn about social skills, anxiety, self esteem, self acceptance, sexuality and social anxiety. Work on your depression and suicidal inclinations and get that under wraps before trying to have a relationship.

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Incel actually started off as a good thing. It was started by a woman who set up a group talking about being too anxious or depressed to find a partner. Years later and it's dominated by fucktards who think that if a woman refuses to have sex with them then they're denying their human rights or some such shite. Anyone as stupid as that should be castrated anyway, which would solve their problem and stop them sounding like rapey dickheads.

I guess it's a thing though, and I'm probably one and I don't think you're one of those dickheads. We need a new word because incel has been ruined. Lonely and horny? Lonhorn. Yeah that'll catch on. Involuntarily celibate was a crap way of describing it anyway. Hire a prostitute or a gigalo if that's all you want. Don't we want something more? Depressed and anxious though we are, and maybe feeling unworthy of anything more.

Hugs and cuddles and loving someone. Don't get me wrong, sex would also be great, but there's the biological need to spread your seed (even if it's just into a tissue) and the psychological need to find someone you can love and care for. God talking about this is making me feel lonely.

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37 minutes ago, Fluent In Silence said:

Incel actually started off as a good thing. It was started by a woman who set up a group talking about being too anxious or depressed to find a partner. Years later and it's dominated by fucktards who think that if a woman refuses to have sex with them then they're denying their human rights or some such shite. Anyone as stupid as that should be castrated anyway, which would solve their problem and stop them sounding like rapey dickheads.

I guess it's a thing though, and I'm probably one and I don't think you're one of those dickheads. We need a new word because incel has been ruined. Lonely and horny? Lonhorn. Yeah that'll catch on. Involuntarily celibate was a crap way of describing it anyway. Hire a prostitute or a gigalo if that's all you want. Don't we want something more? Depressed and anxious though we are, and maybe feeling unworthy of anything more.

Hugs and cuddles and loving someone. Don't get me wrong, sex would also be great, but there's the biological need to spread your seed (even if it's just into a tissue) and the psychological need to find someone you can love and care for. God talking about this is making me feel lonely.

We had  a guy in my city who allegedly has Asperger's claim he was starting an incel revolution and mowed down about 16 people with a rental van.  He killed 10 people, mostly women, and a few elderly people.  This is not anything against anyone with Aspergers.  Most of you contribute to society in wonderful ways.  This guy was lost and got sucked into this crazy movement.

The funny part is as a woman I feel hated a lot even without the incel movement.  If I come across as too loud, assertive or strong I am suddenly unlikeable because I don't act demure and coy.  To be honest I want to punch half of society in it's collective stupid pie hole on good days for various reasons, men and women.  I've been yelled at for not smiling, or for merely making steamy shit piles who call themselves men feel insecure over a tiny slight.  

Yeah I got some work shit going on and the stupidity is at an all time high there so it's contributing to my feeling a bit spicy.

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On 4/26/2019 at 2:39 AM, ananke said:

Look, if you are suicidal, I'd really recommend taking some time off dating anyone and focusing on getting yourself to a better place mentally. You can always get back to dating but you can't come back from death. 

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but why don't you consider your experiences with men to be part of your sexuality? Virginity as a concept is only useful if you are a 16th century squire marrying off his daughter. To not have sexual experience with women by 21 is more common than you think. But you need to put your mental health first. 

The reason I don't consider my sexual interactions with men to be legitimate sexual experiences or as you say "part of my sexuality" is because it's much easier to get with a man than with a woman. The way men work and the way women work is very different. When you're gay, you can just have as much anonymous sex as you want. With women, you need to ask her for her number, introduce yourself to her, then start dating her, and after a while, finally be able to fuck her. If you get her pregnant, then you have to worry about a whole bunch of other shit, like raising the kid. And if she takes your house and children from you, you now have to pay child support and if you don't, you go to jail and get labeled a deadbeat piece of shit because you can't conjure all of that money from your ass at will that you need to pay for it, and you have to keep paying money until they become adults to where what was once your kid now becomes more like a car payment to you for a car that you don't even own. I hate to offend anybody on here, but that's one of the reasons I was too afraid to start dating women again. It's because the last time I dated this one girl (even though it was online and we never met), she started seeing this other guy and started parading him around on her FB profile, and I started self-harming and she called me pathetic for it. It's because I'm not prepared to deal with a woman's shit. Simple as that. I just want sex and that's it. But then again, if I had to pay a prostitute for it, then I wouldn't really be a slayer, now would I? With men, you buy the pizza from the pizza restaurant. For women, you have to buy the entire pizza restaurant just to order the pizza. See how that works? 

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Posted (edited)

Not really man. I feel like there's a lot of 'men are from Mars, women are from Venus' vibes here. I know a lot of women who don't ever want to get pregnant and enjoy one night stands, and gay/bi men who like to be romanced and that. This ex sounds like an a hole, but she's a one case example that you are using to generalise about 4 billion people. I feel like if you had more women friends, women would not be this terrifyingly one dimensional in their desires to seduce and reproduce. 

Although I understand you want just sex, I'm still worried about your mental health. Are you seeing a professional about this? Suicidal ideation is something a lot of us can relate to and it's definitely possible to find good counselling for it. Relationships and sex will not help your mental health problems, I promise you that from someone who went through it.

EDIT: I feel like you want us to admit there is some fundamental differences between men and women, at least in relation to how they date, and I'm just not going to. I know more people that break these supposed differences than meet them. These are old stereotypes and not helpful.

Edited by ananke
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i'm not getting into the topic of serial killers in training but i'll tell you that it's common for people with anxiety of both genders to have difficulty talking to members of the opposite sex and also difficulty in becoming and maintaining arousal. both these things can be overcome with therapy, especially CBT. i'm not saying any more don't @ me

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On 4/28/2019 at 2:53 AM, wookie said:

The funny part is as a woman I feel hated a lot even without the incel movement.  If I come across as too loud, assertive or strong I am suddenly unlikeable because I don't act demure and coy.  To be honest I want to punch half of society in it's collective stupid pie hole on good days for various reasons, men and women.  I've been yelled at for not smiling, or for merely making steamy shit piles who call themselves men feel insecure over a tiny slight. 

You sound great. Those people can go fuck themselves. Yeah you can't punch everyone who's an arsehole unfortunately, and a concussion is unlikely to do anything to improve their personality anyway.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/28/2019 at 5:30 AM, Megalomaniacal said:

The reason I don't consider my sexual interactions with men to be legitimate sexual experiences or as you say "part of my sexuality" is because it's much easier to get with a man than with a woman. The way men work and the way women work is very different. When you're gay, you can just have as much anonymous sex as you want. With women, you need to ask her for her number, introduce yourself to her, then start dating her, and after a while, finally be able to fuck her. If you get her pregnant, then you have to worry about a whole bunch of other shit, like raising the kid. And if she takes your house and children from you, you now have to pay child support and if you don't, you go to jail and get labeled a deadbeat piece of shit because you can't conjure all of that money from your ass at will that you need to pay for it, and you have to keep paying money until they become adults to where what was once your kid now becomes more like a car payment to you for a car that you don't even own. I hate to offend anybody on here, but that's one of the reasons I was too afraid to start dating women again. It's because the last time I dated this one girl (even though it was online and we never met), she started seeing this other guy and started parading him around on her FB profile, and I started self-harming and she called me pathetic for it. It's because I'm not prepared to deal with a woman's shit. Simple as that. I just want sex and that's it. But then again, if I had to pay a prostitute for it, then I wouldn't really be a slayer, now would I? With men, you buy the pizza from the pizza restaurant. For women, you have to buy the entire pizza restaurant just to order the pizza. See how that works? 

I'm not sure where to start. The woman who called you pathetic for self-harming was a dickhead. Equality means that women are just as capable as men of being dickheads. But men aren't from Mars, and women aren't from Venus, as Ananke said. Women aren't Venetians, they're from the same planet as us, and you shouldn't generalise from one bad experience because that would be fucking stupid. You know that old tale about the fox who wants the grapes? The fox can't reach high enough to get the grapes and so decides that they're sour anyway and he doesn't want them. Women are all bitches anyway, who want to steal your house. You see the parallel I'm trying to draw there right?

You want to be a 'Slayer' of women? My name is Buck, I'm here to fuck! Not prepared to deal with women's shit? Oh yeah! All they talk about is handbags and periods. No they don't. Maybe try to see women as human beings and you might get laid. They don't all want to steal your precious fluids in order to ruin your life. I'm no expert on women (or humans in general) but I think they like to be thought of as something more than just a thing to fuck.

But anything offensive you might've said says more about your own insecurities. And you've talked some shit but you're lonely and insecure. I don't say that in order to offend you but because I think it's true.

.

Edited by Fluent In Silence
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Posted (edited)

It does sound like some form of anxiety, especially fearing people's reactions (I'll bet that no reasonable human being wants to laugh at you). The good news is that there are effective treatments for anxiety, ranging from medication to therapy (and both). A lot of people are able to make progress with the right help.

Edited by survivingbp
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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2019 at 10:30 PM, Megalomaniacal said:

The reason I don't consider my sexual interactions with men to be legitimate sexual experiences or as you say "part of my sexuality" is because it's much easier to get with a man than with a woman. The way men work and the way women work is very different. When you're gay, you can just have as much anonymous sex as you want. With women, you need to ask her for her number, introduce yourself to her, then start dating her, and after a while, finally be able to fuck her. If you get her pregnant, then you have to worry about a whole bunch of other shit, like raising the kid. And if she takes your house and children from you, you now have to pay child support and if you don't, you go to jail and get labeled a deadbeat piece of shit because you can't conjure all of that money from your ass at will that you need to pay for it, and you have to keep paying money until they become adults to where what was once your kid now becomes more like a car payment to you for a car that you don't even own. I hate to offend anybody on here, but that's one of the reasons I was too afraid to start dating women again. It's because the last time I dated this one girl (even though it was online and we never met), she started seeing this other guy and started parading him around on her FB profile, and I started self-harming and she called me pathetic for it. It's because I'm not prepared to deal with a woman's shit. Simple as that. I just want sex and that's it. But then again, if I had to pay a prostitute for it, then I wouldn't really be a slayer, now would I? With men, you buy the pizza from the pizza restaurant. For women, you have to buy the entire pizza restaurant just to order the pizza. See how that works? 

Oof.  If you are suicidal I urge you to get crisis help immediately.  And secondly you seriously need to get some psychiatric help to sort out this thinking of yours.  Lots of objectification and black or white thinking here.    You're 21. Get outdoors.  Get off your pc, try some sports or do something fun that involves other people.  I don't care if you're in a wheelchair or have some other physical limitation, you can move about and breathe and see and hear.  Try to meet human beings and see them as people rather than cause and affect objects that determine your personal satisfaction.  And get out of your own head for a bit, help a person in need.  Learn to value what you love - find a passion that doesn't involve sexual gratification.  Stop chest thumping your need to be a pimp daddy.  I can assure you, you are off the mark with these thought processes - it almost sounds like brainwashing of some sort...Good luck with your journey...I have no more words to offer you, as your manifesto leaves me dumbfounded and gloomy.

Edited by Lunakin

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